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OP
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LOL 3 pellets and a 250gr bullet makes ya a 300 yard shooter..... RIIIIIGHT. Here you go dipstick.You can read right???? QT .40 Exterior Ballistics Table .40 QT Spitzer Polymer Tip 215 grain - 110 grains powder - BC .319 - .45 caliber sabot Distance (yards) Muzzle 25 50 75 100 125 150 175 200 225 250 Velocity (fps) 1900 1843 1787 1732 1679 1628 1579 1531 1484 1439 1395 Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 1723 1620 1523 1432 1347 1265 1189 1118 1052 988 929 Trajectory - .5 1.8 2.5 2.5 1.6 0 2.5 6.0 10.4 15.9 LONG RANGE EXAMPLES .40 QT Polymer Tip - 195 grain - .45 caliber sabot - 120 grains Pyrodex P - BC .268 Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 450 500 Velocity (fps) 2150 2003 1864 1732 1609 1495 1388 1292 1209 1142 1087 Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2001 1738 1504 1298 1120 968 835 723 633 564 512 Trajectory 0 2.5 4.3 3.6 0 7.0 17.8 33.2 53.8 80.4 114 .40 QT Polymer Tip - 195 grain - 150 grains powder - BC .268 Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 450 500 Velocity (fps) 2300 2146 2000 1860 1729 1606 1492 1386 1290 1207 1140 Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2290 1994 1732 1499 1294 1116 964 832 721 631 563 Trajectory 0 2.0 3.6 3.1 0 6.0 15.3 28.6 46 70 98 .40 QT Polymer Tip - 215 grain - 150 grains powder - BC .319 Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 450 500 Velocity (fps) 2200 2074 1954 1838 1728 1624 1527 1435 1349 1272 1204 Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2310 2054 1822 1613 1425 1259 1112 983 869 773 692 Trajectory 0 2.2 3.8 3.2 0 6.1 15.5 28.7 46 68 96 .40 QT Polymer Tip - 235 grain - 150 grains powder - BC .344 Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 450 500 Velocity (fps) 2050 1939 1832 1730 1634 1542 1456 1375 1301 1234 1176 Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2193 1962 1751 1562 1393 1241 1107 987 883 794 721 Trajectory 0 2.3 4.0 3.3 0 6.3 15.9 29.0 47 70 98 .40 QT Polymer Tip - 250 grain - 150 grains powder - BC .356 Distance (yards) Muzzle 50 100 150 200 250 300 350 400 450 500 Velocity (fps) 2214 2101 1991 1886 1785 1689 1598 1511 1430 1353 1283 Kinetic Energy (ft lb) 2721 2449 2201 1974 1768 1583 1416 1268 1135 1016 913 Trajectory 0 2.6 3.6 3.0 0 5.7 14.6 26.8 43 63 88
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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hahahahahaa!!! 300 yards. RIIIIGHT. I bet you couldnt even hit a 12" gong from a hunting position at 250, let alone 300.
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OP
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hahahahahaa!!! 300 yards. RIIIIGHT. I bet you couldnt even hit a 12" gong from a hunting position at 250, let alone 300. Don`t judge anyone else by your lack of capabilities!!
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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It's not the idea of you wanting to hunt with a modern inline. I hunt with one some of the time. No one is disputing that. It's your whining about smoke. You sound like a little kid that complains about ice cream being too cold.
Get over it muzzleloaders make smoke.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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smoke is all part of the adventure. One of my greatest memories was sneaking up on a bedded buck, got tucked in under a cedar tree and when i touched the trigger, that flinter lit up that tree bright orange and when the smoke cleared, that buck was straight on his back with their legs in the air kicking. 40 yard shot to the head did the job from that ol kentucky.
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Most of you know that I don�t get mixed up in these anymore as you all know that IMO the whole modern thing is just the same old BS
You want more time in the woods , Fantastic. Get out there and spend time in the woods . Join 4X4 clubs , bike clubs . Get out there and help improve trails , streams , habitat��.. But don�t come crying because you arnt aloud to drive your 4 wheel drive on trails designated for ATV . Or for that mater either of those in areas set aside for hiking or horse back .
Same thing with hunting . You want more hunting time ? For crying out loud , you can already hunt near year around . Get out there an squirrel hunt , rabbit hunt , bird hunt , spring bear , fall bear . Hell you don�t like smoke , go buy a Daisy BB gun and shoot sparrows and starlings for crying out loud . Better yet do away with the whole powder thing all together and get you one of those new high power Air guns and go after big game .
As to the �if they would have had they would have used it � idea . Well here is news for you . They had it and they didn�t use it . Bolt action rifles with very near the same ignition design as a lot of the bolt action commercial rifles sold today , date to the early 1700 in flint . Later in the 1800�s cap . They sucked until the design began being used for cartridge designs starting with the needle guns then pin fire then back to percussion.
. You want 300 yards , then get a gun that�s made for that range of shooting . Having a modern inline design has nothing to do with those distances or the accuracy at those distances , scoped or not . The history books are full of accounts of accounts of shots being taken well past the 300 yard range on targets , humans and big game . If the range was dictated by the type of ignition then those original bolt action designs would have taken hold ..
You want smokeless , fine then get a smokeless gun. As others have said , you can buy one . Go shoot it . Then cry because even though you load it from the muzzle , in a lot of states the laws don�t allow them . Not to also mention that some of them are classified as firearms. IE now your dealing with FFL�s , backgrounds searches���
So cut the Bull , what you really want is a powder with the qualities and velocities of modern smokeless , which will then circumvent the laws with the requirement of �black powder or its Direct replacement� that�s really what your after .
So excuse me if I don�t buy the � im tiered of the smoke � line . Everything cost something , I don�t understand why it is so hard to accept that if you want to spend a little longer in the woods hunting big game in a muzzleloader season that accepting alittle smoke as part of the cost is such a life changing issue . If it really and truly was , then there are is a lot of other opportunities for folks to spend all the time in the woods they want . Be that hunting or other .
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As stated BH209 is close to smokeless but its expensive. It should work fine in a Omega. The Omega is one of the models Western used during development.
You would be better off building a SML though. Powder is cheaper, performance is better and you can still shoot BH209 or nearly any sub you wish. Just because its smokeless capable does not mean its the only powder that works. There are several options for a non form 4473 SML.
Let the traditionalists cry all they want while they check their trail cams and put on their Thinsulate.
BTW good luck duplicating PR's BC claims. I doubt it will happen if you are breathing our atmosphere.
Last edited by Overkill45; 02/03/14.
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i dont care what you shoot be it traditional or modern . just stop the BS about what type of action is needed.. as to letting the traditionalists cry . i see it the other way as it sure seems to me that modern shooters crying about not having their chosen style rifle aloud , is whats got us in the mess . the whole thought that a modern bolt action design is whats needed to hit at distance is ludicrous . it�s a sales gimmick that�s designed around a want it now society who claims they want more time in the woods yet a lot of the time only takes the time to take their guns out of the cabinet once a year . Who wants to be able to look at some ballistics chart to tell them what to load . Then expects that load to hit a 8 inch target at 300 plus yards . Then be able to put their gun back in the closet without cleaning it , caring or maintaining it . So yes shoot what you want , who flipping cares.. Just don�t give some lame excuse about why you may or may not want a given design . Myself , on my best day , I can , off hand , put 5 shots in a chest size target , off hand at 325 yards Consistently at 200 Smaller target you say . Fine here is one for you fine 10 x 10 target Off hand IE, NO REST , non supported ,standing With patched RB. Open sights 1 shot . Two of us hit this mark Myself and Kim . Mine with a flintlock and Kim shooting a cap lock . My rifle is a 54 , kims is a 50 . Both have 42 inch barrels Kim�s hit is on the tag just above the target . Mine is on the target . Is this exceptional shooting NO . In fact I lose more off hand events then I win . In the 5 events I regularly shoot in , one had better be able to hit consistently a chest size target , off hand at 250-300 with open sights or your not going to be in the top 2 . But again is that exceptional ? By historic , writings , NO . its what rifleman did . Now I ask you , since we have today better more consistent mixed BP . We have better eye correction for those of us like myself who need glasses . Why is it that more of us cant achieve remotely the same results ? Alexander Graydon, Commenting on the Ineffectiveness of British Muskets in Battle, 1776. .. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "An unusual number of the killed were found to have been shot in the head. Riflemen took off riflemen with such exactness, that they killed each other when they were taking sight, so effectually that their eyes remained after they were dead, one shut and the other open, in the usual manner of marksmen when leveling at their subjects." General Victor Callot, 1796. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Their guns are rifled barrels, and they fight in ambush, five hundred provincials would stop the march of five thousand regulars. And a whole army might be cut off, without knowing where the fire came from." Gentleman's Magazine, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I have many times asked the American backwoodsman what was the most their best marksmen could do; they have constantly told me that an expert rifleman, provided he can draw good and true sight, can hit the head of a man at 200 yards. I am certain that provided an American rifleman was to get a perfect aim at 300 yards at me standing still, he most undoubtedly would hit me, unless it was a very windy day . . ." Isaac Weld, Travels Through the States of North America, 1799. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Rifle Men that for their number make the most formidable light infantry in the world. The six frontier countries (of Virginia) can produce 6000 of these Men (with) their amazing hardihood, their method of living so long in the woods without carrying provisions with them, the exceeding quickness with which they can march to distant parts, and above all, the dexterity to which they have arrived in the use of the Rifle Gun. Their [sic] is not one of these Men who wish a distance less than 200 yards or a larger object than an Orange -- Every shot is fatal." George Washington, Letter to the Board of War, 1777. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I have formed two companies of grenadiers to each regiment, and with spears of 13 feet long. Their rifle (for they are all riflemen) slung over their shoulders, their appearance is formidable, and the men are conciliated to the weapon. I am likewise furnishing myself with four-ounced rifle-amusettes, which will carry an infernal distance; the two-ounced hit a half-sheet of paper 500 yards distant." Action Off Hampton Roads. Virginia, 1775, where riflemen fired upon the enemy from the shore. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " . . . the Riflemen had in one day killed 10 men of a reconnoitering party, and it is said they have killed three officers. A sentry was killed at 250 yards distance." London Newspaper, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The express, who was sent by the Congress, is returned here from the Eastward, and says he left the Camp last Saturday; that the riflemen picked off ten men in one day, three of whom were Field-officers that were reconnoitering; one of them was killed at the distance of 250 yards, when only half his head was seen." General Charles Lee, Letter to Colonel William Thompson, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "At the distance, perhaps, of one hundred and fifty yards, nothing but his head above water, a shooting-match took place, and believe me, the balls of Morgan, Simpson, Humphreys, and others, played around, and within a few inches of his head . . ." John Joseph Henry, Campaign Against Quebec, 1812, indicating that these rifle officers also used long arms Riflemen� "can hit a man if within 250 yards, and his head if within 150." Virginia Gazette, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A gentleman from the American camp says - 'Last Wednesday, some riflemen, on Charlestown side, shot an officer of note in the ministerial service, supposed to be Major Small, or Bruce, and killed three men on board a ship at Charlestown ferry, at the distance of full half a mile," [800 yards!?! ] A Minister of the Church of England to the Earl of Dartmouth, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "This province has raised 1,000 riflemen, the worse of whom will put a ball into a man's head at the distance of 150 to 200 yards; therefore, advise your officers who shall hereafter come out to America to settle their affairs before their departure." London Chronicle, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A party of these men at a late review on a quick advance, placed their balls in poles of 7 inches diameter, fixed for that purpose, at the distance of 250 yards."
Last edited by captchee; 02/03/14.
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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i dont care what you shoot be it traditional or modern . just stop the BS about what type of action is needed.. as to letting the traditionalists cry . i see it the other way as it sure seems to me that modern shooters crying about not having their chosen style rifle aloud , is whats got us in the mess . the whole thought that a modern bolt action design is whats needed to hit at distance is ludicrous . it�s a sales gimmick that�s designed around a want it now society who claims they want more time in the woods yet a lot of the time only takes the time to take their guns out of the cabinet once a year . Who wants to be able to look at some ballistics chart to tell them what to load . Then expects that load to hit a 8 inch target at 300 plus yards . Then be able to put their gun back in the closet without cleaning it , caring or maintaining it . So yes shoot what you want , who flipping cares.. Just don�t give some lame excuse about why you may or may not want a given design . Myself , on my best day , I can , off hand , put 5 shots in a chest size target , off hand at 325 yards Consistently at 200 Smaller target you say . Fine here is one for you fine 10 x 10 target Off hand IE, NO REST , non supported ,standing With patched RB. Open sights 1 shot . Two of us hit this mark Myself and Kim . Mine with a flintlock and Kim shooting a cap lock . My rifle is a 54 , kims is a 50 . Both have 42 inch barrels Kim�s hit is on the tag just above the target . Mine is on the target . Is this exceptional shooting NO . In fact I lose more off hand events then I win . In the 5 events I regularly shoot in , one had better be able to hit consistently a chest size target , off hand at 250-300 with open sights or your not going to be in the top 2 . But again is that exceptional ? By historic , writings , NO . its what rifleman did . Now I ask you , since we have today better more consistent mixed BP . We have better eye correction for those of us like myself who need glasses . Why is it that more of us cant achieve remotely the same results ? Alexander Graydon, Commenting on the Ineffectiveness of British Muskets in Battle, 1776. .. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "An unusual number of the killed were found to have been shot in the head. Riflemen took off riflemen with such exactness, that they killed each other when they were taking sight, so effectually that their eyes remained after they were dead, one shut and the other open, in the usual manner of marksmen when leveling at their subjects." General Victor Callot, 1796. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Their guns are rifled barrels, and they fight in ambush, five hundred provincials would stop the march of five thousand regulars. And a whole army might be cut off, without knowing where the fire came from." Gentleman's Magazine, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I have many times asked the American backwoodsman what was the most their best marksmen could do; they have constantly told me that an expert rifleman, provided he can draw good and true sight, can hit the head of a man at 200 yards. I am certain that provided an American rifleman was to get a perfect aim at 300 yards at me standing still, he most undoubtedly would hit me, unless it was a very windy day . . ." Isaac Weld, Travels Through the States of North America, 1799. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Rifle Men that for their number make the most formidable light infantry in the world. The six frontier countries (of Virginia) can produce 6000 of these Men (with) their amazing hardihood, their method of living so long in the woods without carrying provisions with them, the exceeding quickness with which they can march to distant parts, and above all, the dexterity to which they have arrived in the use of the Rifle Gun. Their [sic] is not one of these Men who wish a distance less than 200 yards or a larger object than an Orange -- Every shot is fatal." George Washington, Letter to the Board of War, 1777. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I have formed two companies of grenadiers to each regiment, and with spears of 13 feet long. Their rifle (for they are all riflemen) slung over their shoulders, their appearance is formidable, and the men are conciliated to the weapon. I am likewise furnishing myself with four-ounced rifle-amusettes, which will carry an infernal distance; the two-ounced hit a half-sheet of paper 500 yards distant." Action Off Hampton Roads. Virginia, 1775, where riflemen fired upon the enemy from the shore. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " . . . the Riflemen had in one day killed 10 men of a reconnoitering party, and it is said they have killed three officers. A sentry was killed at 250 yards distance." London Newspaper, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The express, who was sent by the Congress, is returned here from the Eastward, and says he left the Camp last Saturday; that the riflemen picked off ten men in one day, three of whom were Field-officers that were reconnoitering; one of them was killed at the distance of 250 yards, when only half his head was seen." General Charles Lee, Letter to Colonel William Thompson, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "At the distance, perhaps, of one hundred and fifty yards, nothing but his head above water, a shooting-match took place, and believe me, the balls of Morgan, Simpson, Humphreys, and others, played around, and within a few inches of his head . . ." John Joseph Henry, Campaign Against Quebec, 1812, indicating that these rifle officers also used long arms Riflemen� "can hit a man if within 250 yards, and his head if within 150." Virginia Gazette, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A gentleman from the American camp says - 'Last Wednesday, some riflemen, on Charlestown side, shot an officer of note in the ministerial service, supposed to be Major Small, or Bruce, and killed three men on board a ship at Charlestown ferry, at the distance of full half a mile," [800 yards!?! ] A Minister of the Church of England to the Earl of Dartmouth, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "This province has raised 1,000 riflemen, the worse of whom will put a ball into a man's head at the distance of 150 to 200 yards; therefore, advise your officers who shall hereafter come out to America to settle their affairs before their departure." London Chronicle, 1775. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A party of these men at a late review on a quick advance, placed their balls in poles of 7 inches diameter, fixed for that purpose, at the distance of 250 yards." Some good shooting my friend.I did not come here to whine.I asked a simple question.I have received some good replies with info I did not have.Thanks to all that have been helpful .Huntz
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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I am so tired of all these special seasons. All it does is promote basic human nature of getting the most for least amount of effort. It's never going to change because of the huge amounts of money being made by companies that cater to it and special interest groups that want an advantage. Archery, muzzleloading, youth, handicap, doesn't matter. The ink doesn't even dry on the regulations before people are trying to push the envelope and companies are lining up to sell their wares that give the buyer some sort of advantage. Look at the equipment used when these seasons were initiated and compare them to today. Muzzleloading: mostly flint and percussion side locks with iron sights, patched round balls and real black powder. Archery: recurve and long bows with cedar arrows, feather fletching and broadheads you sharpened. What I see now is a lot of people who don't really care about the disiplines of the sport but just want to hunt longer/kill more. Don't think I'm a "traditionalist", I own cartridge guns from BPCR to barrel burners, archery from long bows to crossbows and muzzleloaders from 150 year-old sidelocks to smokeless and I hunt with them all for MY enjoyment, not because there's a special season for it. My opinion is the wildlife departments should set the season dates and limits and leave it to the hunter to use the weapon of their choosing. Kill your limit and your season's over, simple. But as I said, never going to happen. Too much money involved and too many whiners that want special treatment. Just my gallon of gas, your mileage will vary.
Charter Member Ancient order of the 1895 Winchester
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Jeez-o-Peet, all the guy did was ask if there was a black powder replacement that didn't smoke so bad!
Use BlackHorn 209 in your Omega, and you'll never look back. Yea, it costs a little bit more than Triple 7, but you'll be amazed at the difference in performance & time saved by not swabbing after every shot. Great stuff, go for it!
JP
JohnP
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Well said Mitch . At one time I disagreed but more and more I agree .
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I have an Omega and Encore Muzzle loader.I am sick of the big belch of smoke.Is there anything made that does not have the obnoxious cloud of crap???? Thanks ahead ,Huntz Yup, Unique I'll send you a pound, if you promise to load equal volume . Q: do you remember your Mom dropping you on yer' head (frequently?)
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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I shoot a Savage that's made for smokeless. While the smokeless really works well, 2,400 to 2,500 fps with 300 grain bullets I found that most states do not allow smokeless powder for muzzle loader season. Mine shoots a 4 inch group @ 300yds with smokeless but had to learn to shoot Blackhorn 209. It shoot's 200-300 fps less and 6"-7" group @ 300. I've harvested many trophies 200 yds plus with that little cannon. To bad Savage quite making them.
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A lot of people really like their Savage muzzle loaders. Supposed to be very accurate. I wouldn't mind finding one of the laminated ones, I think they are a good looking rifle.
Smokeless is allowed where I hunt. Its kind of funny that people tend to forget the first black powder substitute was smokeless powder.
I think in some states Blackhorn 209 may still be illegal to use, but I don't really know and don't care unless I end up hunting in that state. The deer don't care. Use what is legal and what you like.
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Its kind of funny that people tend to forget the first black powder substitute was smokeless powder. Are we really going to go through that double meaning word game BS again ? I shoot smokeless in my uberti , cap and ball 1851 colt . But I also have converted it . While that has been done I also still cannot use full loads as the gun will not take the pressure i sure hope we arnt going to go through this BS substatute thing again . it got very od the last time and only ended up with aword definition
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Keep it legal. Keep it safe. Go have fun.
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...Put a good scope on any modern inline and its a killing machine out to 300 yards.... Uh huh.
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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1628 1609 1495 .40 QT Polymer Tip - 195 grain - 150 grains powder - BC .268 Distance (yards) Muzzle 50
1) obnoxious cut and paste without editing out the chaff. 2) PR bullets is notorious for exterior ballistic hyperbole 3) reading it is one thing, shooting it is another. 4) please, before you pull the trigger, consider the wind. No, every modern inline ML is not a 300 yard killing machine. (At least not consistently and humanely, anymore than every sabot shooting shotgun is a 200 years killing machine or every centerfire 30-06 is a 600 yard killing machine. )
Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.
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A factory smokeless muzzleloader I can recommend is the Savage MLII as has already been stated. I will eventually play with smokeless in mine but since I can't use it for hunting I'm shooting 777 for most of my loads. The Savage isn't lite but is actually rated for use with smokeless loads they provide.
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