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What do you think you could do to make a factory soft point expand quicker or more dramatically at a lower velocity?
Reheating and ice dunk?
Liquid nitrogen bath?
I plan on running some round nose slow and am curious.
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Well, I'm not telling you to do it, but cast bullet shooters know that the single biggest element for a quick kill using lead only is to have a large meplat. That's what makes the wound channel.
Jacketed bullets react differently. Some companies taper jackets, score jackets, use two hardnesses of lead, partition the bullet, etc. In the end though, if it hits like a bulldozer with a big blade in the front, it's going to do more damage, all things being equal.
The problem with altering a jacketed bullet is the potential to damage it. Core separations can cause trouble. If it was me, I'd let the factory bullet do the work the designers intended or buy another box of cartridges.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Elmer Keith used to file the noses off then drill a 1/8" hole into the tip, turning them into hollowpoints.
If you have a good drill press, this would be at the top of my list.
But in general, like Steve says, I'd choose a bullet made for my purpose, of course with the current component shortage, you may have to make due....
What velocities do you plan to shoot out of what cartridge, maybe we can help you come up with some idea's?
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 02/02/14.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
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Campfire Ranger
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Running 180 round nose at 2200.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Many of the round nose bullets are designed to open at lower velocities. You may be assuming a problem where none exists.
Which 180's are you using?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Kahuna
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Forster makes a bullet hollow pointer. It works.
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Ringworm I'm w/sniper...using the 125gr bullet in the 30-30 as it has a small dimple in the front. They say it's a hollow point but it's very shallow. powdr
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Remington.
I want them to really come apart.
What would be the effect of super heating then ice dunk?
Wouldn't that, in theory cause the lead to become more brittle?
In the Schucetti tests, the bullet performs well and expands decent down to 1500.
Last edited by ringworm; 02/03/14.
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Campfire Regular
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What do you think you could do to make a factory soft point expand quicker or more dramatically at a lower velocity?
Reheating and ice dunk?
Liquid nitrogen bath?
I plan on running some round nose slow and am curious. I believe that you are backwards in your theory. What you are proposing will make the bullet harder and less likely to expand. The nitrogen bath could make the bullet brittle enough that it shatters, but if it is that brittle it could shatter upon ignition. However, I think that due to lead's inherent properties that you will simply make the bullet hard but not brittle. Caution! First note that you will dimensionally change the bullet with heat treating, and may lose accuracy or possibly have trouble loading the bullet. Regardless of what type of heat treating you do, the composition of the lead will largely dictate expansion; meaning: "Is it an alloy or pure lead?". Alloys will be harder and expand less, pure lead will be softer and expand more. The best heat treatment for pure lead or alloyed lead to increase expansion will be annealing. Heat the bullet to the lowest austenitic temperature and remain at the temperature long enough for the bullets to obtain the temperature to steady state (throughout), then slow cool. Slower is better for softness: hottest to hot to warm, etc; even slower than hot to room temp (leave in oven while oven is shut off and cool; not cooking oven). The max heated temperature will vary with alloying content percentage. I am also not fluently familiar with lead and lead alloy TTT diagrams, but I am sure that there are similarities to other metals. You may make a mess. (Jacketed lead "globs") Creating a dimple in the nose, or making the nose flatter and/or wider is the safest and simplest idea. I also assume that you are pulling the bullets or just using the factory ammo components. *Live ammunition should see no heating, ice or nitrogen bath, or machining!!! I am a materials engineering student that graduates this spring and needs a job, FYI. West-central PA
Last edited by WPAH; 02/03/14.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Is there any reason to not use 30/30 170gr projectiles, assuming you're using a .30 cal of some sort? They won't explode but will absolutely open up. Drilling a wide deep hollow point as mentioned above would probably make things interesting. Guess you could always make a very deep hollow point with a grain or so of Bullseye in the bottom with a magnum primer anvil side down on top of it and an engineered firing pin of some sort with it's base acting as the bullet tip  . Bada bing, bada BOOM.
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"And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him."
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So Ringworm, what are we shooting with these loads?
varmints? Pigs?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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So I'll try a few in the oven, say on self clean for an hour then cool slowly.
I'll run them at shredded paper soaked in water and packed into 5 gallon buckets to test.
If they perform the way I want they will be a low recoil deer bullet.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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annealing the lead may help, but the jacket will still retard expansion. A straight lead bullet may work better for you.
If you are new to casting something like the lee c309-150-f (.309 150 grain flatnose) with a 95/5 lead/tin mix should expand nicely. If you wanted to go even "lower recoil", you could hold the tin to 2% and air cool. Run a Forster hollow pointer down the center and see what happens.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Tracker
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I am a caster...and I have other rifles that I solely run jacketed in. I don't know what cartridge you are shooting but I would recommend you seek a different projectile for your purposes.
Two recommendations prevail here...and I agree with them:
--find a different bullet (there are varmint bullets available for .30 cals)
--alter to a wide meplat or hollowpoint.
Your "super-heating" idea may not be the best. Lead melts around 550F or there abouts depending on the alloy. Most ovens "clean" cycles operate well above 500F. The purpose is to completely incinerate and flake any food paticles so they may be swept out easily with no scrubbing. Heating in this manner...accompanied with the slightest little bump of your pan (or whatever else you use to hold the bullets) my accomplish nothing more than emptying the copper cups of their cores.
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What do you think you could do to make a factory soft point expand quicker or more dramatically at a lower velocity?
Reheating and ice dunk?
Liquid nitrogen bath?
I plan on running some round nose slow and am curious. I believe that you are backwards in your theory. What you are proposing will make the bullet harder and less likely to expand. The nitrogen bath could make the bullet brittle enough that it shatters, but if it is that brittle it could shatter upon ignition. However, I think that due to lead's inherent properties that you will simply make the bullet hard but not brittle. Caution! First note that you will dimensionally change the bullet with heat treating, and may lose accuracy or possibly have trouble loading the bullet. Regardless of what type of heat treating you do, the composition of the lead will largely dictate expansion; meaning: "Is it an alloy or pure lead?". Alloys will be harder and expand less, pure lead will be softer and expand more. The best heat treatment for pure lead or alloyed lead to increase expansion will be annealing. Heat the bullet to the lowest austenitic temperature and remain at the temperature long enough for the bullets to obtain the temperature to steady state (throughout), then slow cool. Slower is better for softness: hottest to hot to warm, etc; even slower than hot to room temp (leave in oven while oven is shut off and cool; not cooking oven). The max heated temperature will vary with alloying content percentage. I am also not fluently familiar with lead and lead alloy TTT diagrams, but I am sure that there are similarities to other metals. You may make a mess. (Jacketed lead "globs") Creating a dimple in the nose, or making the nose flatter and/or wider is the safest and simplest idea. I also assume that you are pulling the bullets or just using the factory ammo components. *Live ammunition should see no heating, ice or nitrogen bath, or machining!!! I am a materials engineering student that graduates this spring and needs a job, FYI. West-central PA Dude, not a good showing of what you should have learned in school... Austenitic refers to a solid solution of iron and carbon particular to a couple grades of steel. Likewise TTT diagrams are generally for steels and relate to phase changes at isothermal conditions. Phase diagram may be what you meant to say. Partial credit for hypothesizing the OP will accomplish nothing more than making a mess. To the OP - depends on what lead alloy you have as to how it'll respond to heat treating. Check out http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm for possibilities.
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You are correct.
I did also mean the phase diagram. Also, I stated that I am not familiar with the lead diagram, and I did not feel like looking it up. Austenite is steel (correct again), and for steel that would be the temperature to heat to. Same process, different parameters.
He cannot heat it to melting temp, and must cool slow for softness throughout.
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For low speed/close range, play with loading them upside down. Full diameter meplat...
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You are correct.
I did also mean the phase diagram. Also, I stated that I am not familiar with the lead diagram, and I did not feel like looking it up. Austenite is steel (correct again), and for steel that would be the temperature to heat to. Same process, different parameters.
He cannot heat it to melting temp, and must cool slow for softness throughout. You didn't want to look it up, so instead give a wrong answer? First thing you need to learn is there are consequences in the "real world" to trying to BS your way through if you aren't certain of an answer, unlike college. Second thing is "I don't know the answer, but will figure it out and get back to you" is a perfectly acceptable answer. Third thing is if you have little knowledge and little experience and do what you're doing here you're going to get ripped a new one, or at least have the current one enlarged, by a person with more knowledge and experience. BTW - lead/tin alloys soften for a short period of time (hours to days), then form a brittle grain structure, while lead/antimony alloys harden with heating; neither annealing like steels.
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Campfire Ranger
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Why would the presence of the jacket matter?
If I heat the projectile to 425 for half an hour then allow them to cool to room temp they will most assuredly soften. The lead at least. I'm thinking to 9. Maybe less. Sure, 10 days later they'll probably harden to 10-11 but that's still softer than what they are at present.
these are 25 year old projectiles.
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Why would the presence of the jacket matter?
If I heat the projectile to 425 for half an hour then allow them to cool to room temp they will most assuredly soften. The lead at least. I'm thinking to 9. Maybe less. Sure, 10 days later they'll probably harden to 10-11 but that's still softer than what they are at present.
these are 25 year old projectiles. The jacket matters because it is harder than the lead, quite simply. For what you stated that you want - fast/wide expansion at slow velocities, cast bullets cannot be beat, particularly with a soft lead alloy, maybe with a bit of tin, and definitely a WIDE meplat. If you would like, I could connect you with the exact described cast bullet, weighing in at 165 gr. To see a pic, google Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF. Once again, heating your jacketed RN bullets may or may not soften them, most likely it will do nothing or will harden them, depending upon the presence of antimony or traces or arsenic. It all depends upon the manufacturers lead source when they made them, which is a mostly a crapshoot.
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