Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails. I'm not a reloader "yet" but will be as soon as a shop is completed and space is available.
What I want to know is, does either lend itself more easily to load development or bullet choices. I don't think in terms of throat length and mag confines or bullet choices, so I need to ask you guys. I would just like to pick the one that would more easily lend itself to the things a reloader does to achieve better accuracy. Does either the 243 Montana or 7mm-08 excel in that area?
If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
Either will be good, but a 7-08 shooting 120s or less is a 243 for all intents and purposes, including recoil. I'd go with a 7-08 because it is more flexible in reloading for game. It will go down to 100gr bullets and shoot up to about the 168 grainers. If you don't care about more flexibility, the 243 will do the job.
Either will be good, but a 7-08 shooting 120s or less is a 243 for all intents and purposes, including recoil. I'd go with a 7-08 because it is more flexible in reloading for game. It will go down to 100gr bullets and shoot up to about the 168 grainers. If you don't care about more flexibility, the 243 will do the job.
+1. Mine (and it seems a lot of them) really shoots the 120 NBTs well.
Either will be good, but a 7-08 shooting 120s or less is a 243 for all intents and purposes, including recoil.
I disagree.
Having owned both a Kimber Montana 7mm-08 and a 243, the 7mm-08 with full power 120s is a considerable step up in recoil from a 243, especially in a light rifle like the Kimber. A Kimber 7mm-08 will come back at you pretty fast, and it wouldn't be tough to scope oneself with a light hold while firing full power loads.
In comparison A 243 can be loaded with a bullet like the 80 grain TTSX at around 3000 fps, and be a real pussycat to shoot, while still maintaining a nice trajectory.
The 7-08 will take reloading better than the 243, which has a tendancy to stretch brass. The 7-08 , on the other hand, is a jewel to load for, is not picky, and can be loaded to meet any recoil requirement (within reason) you may have.
The additional recoil of a well fitted rifle will be minimal.
My wife and son never had any problem handling the 7mm-08. I only used Remington factory 140's in it. The 7mm-08 gives the reloader a whole heck of a lot of options.
My brother-in-law loads both equally well and both seem very accurate. He doesnt reload alot so neither must be too hard. I know his loads are mainly lighter loads for his wife and son and they seem to always kill deer. He doesn't have any issues. I know my next rifle is going to be a Montana in either 243 or 223 to replace a heavier predator rig I have. The weigh or (lack of it) is addicting. Too bad they are always on back order.
I would say both cartridges are a wash as far as intrinsic accuracy.
The 243 will have a stiffer barrel than the 7mm-08 due to the smaller diameter bore, which certainly lends itself to better accuracy.
An oft overlooked part of shooting for accuracy is recoil. With a light recoiling rifle, one can concentrate on firing more easily without worry. Light recoil also means being able to hold the rifle without a death grip, which generally helps usable accuracy.
With the 243, it wouldn't be tough to start the kids on 55s loaded to 223 velocities, then work the loads up as they see fit, transitioning to a deer bullet when the time comes.
I'd say 243 but I can't get myself to purchase one with a 1-10" twist, so it'd be 7mm08 all the way.
Actually, the 223 would be a good way to roll.
What would be your load of choice in 223 for Whitetails, and do you have as much confidence in it as something like an 80grn TTSX or 85grn Game king in a 243?
This...^^^^^ I took a large mature Doe this years with a 223 Barnes 55gr TSX. 130yrd broadside shot and had a total pass through with a textbook wound channel. I typically would have taken a neck or head shot but wanted to see what the monolithic bullet would do. I'm impressed. These modern bullets has really made these smaller calibers competent deer killers. This will probably be my sons first center fire rifle. No recoil, not loud, accurate, and cheap to shoot.
I'm still hesitant on the 223 in a Montana if for no other reason than I own a Colt 6720 set up with light scope and mounts that can take care of my 223 needs, especially if the kids are involved.
I'm leaning 243 since I have a nice Sako L579 in 243, so I would kill two birds with the reloading components. I know the same could be said for the 223 but I still give the edge to the 243 for deer, even though I know the 223 will get the job done.
Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails.... If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
I like your thinking on this and you can load reduced-loads if needed. Felt recoil in many guns can be a problem for those learning to shoot. The .243 is an excellence deer/predator caliber.
And I am wrestling with the same thing. I have a good but heavy 223 and really want a light weight Montana in a predator caliber. The 243 could pull double duty and give me another caliber. It would also make a idea rifle for my son. My only problem is with the Montana is no dealers in my area can ever get enough of them. They are always back ordered. Is it like that everywhere???
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
I'm still hesitant on the 223 in a Montana if for no other reason than I own a Colt 6720 set up with light scope and mounts that can take care of my 223 needs, especially if the kids are involved.
I'm leaning 243 since I have a nice Sako L579 in 243, so I would kill two birds with the reloading components. I know the same could be said for the 223 but I still give the edge to the 243 for deer, even though I know the 223 will get the job done.
I have both, not in Montana's. I tend to go with prairie goat.. The .243 seems to fit your needs.. I shoot my .243 far more than the 7mm-08, although it is very accurate..
Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails. I'm not a reloader "yet" but will be as soon as a shop is completed and space is available.
What I want to know is, does either lend itself more easily to load development or bullet choices. I don't think in terms of throat length and mag confines or bullet choices, so I need to ask you guys. I would just like to pick the one that would more easily lend itself to the things a reloader does to achieve better accuracy. Does either the 243 Montana or 7mm-08 excel in that area?
If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
223 or 308 if you don't Reload. A schitty Colt Krunchenticker ain't even in the same book,let alone page...as a Montucky 223.
Now as the 243 vs 7-08 goes,in said platform...you is Hungchow in several ways. The 243 is 1-10" which sucks heavy ass and the 7-08 has more throat than box,though are twisted with enough RPM to do it all(which means 162's). I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243.
The 223 Montucky will be shot a whole [bleep] bunch more than anything else and along with the actual act of shooting,there is a byproduct of non-lineal "luck" that reliably begins to blossom.
Hint.
Now will a 223,243,7-08 and 308 shoot nice Agg's? Yes and reliably. Reliabler yet,is the dot connection of trigger time bolstering the daintytitude of relative Agg sizing. Conjoin light done right,in a handy/dandy parcel that is funner than [bleep] to shot and there will be a long line of patrons eagerly awaiting their turn. Good boolits,in good places...do great thangs.
I'd go 7-08. .243 will be fine for whitetails but life MAY be more than whitetails tomorrow. 7-08 is more versatile, recoil will be minimally more but added bullet weight is often appreciated. Here we have a collection of 7-08's, wife's Dakota, son-in law's Browning, 2 Remingtons for my daughter and self in long guns and one pistol. Shot everything from prairie poodles to elk, kudu and caribou, lost count on deer (assorted) and pronghorns. Reloading is a snap and 7mm bullets are offered in nearly any size and shape (110-175 grains for sure) but factory stuff is available and as good as it gets. Still in doubt flip a coin.
Why does a man who is 50 pounds overweight complain about a 10 pound rifle being too heavy? SCI Life Member 4**
Lightweight, Alabama Whitetails, and kids mean 243... especially in a rifle as light as the Kimber.
I've had at least 4 or 5 10-twist 243's... they work just fine. In an ideal world, a 9-twist is better, but in a world full of 6mm bullets it's pole vaulting mouse turds to fret over a 10-twist.
Best Regards...
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
The 223 Montucky will be shot a whole [bleep] bunch more than anything else and along with the actual act of shooting,there is a byproduct of non-lineal "luck" that reliably begins to blossom.
B-, ironic you mention this now, good timing. I'm looking at picking one up this weekend that supposedly won't shoot for my nephews to try to burn out the barrel for exactly the reason you state. Hopefully it doesn't shoot as well as the 308 I picked up that wouldn't shoot.
Any particular load combos you recommend, assuming components are findable?
Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails. I'm not a reloader "yet" but will be as soon as a shop is completed and space is available.
What I want to know is, does either lend itself more easily to load development or bullet choices. I don't think in terms of throat length and mag confines or bullet choices, so I need to ask you guys. I would just like to pick the one that would more easily lend itself to the things a reloader does to achieve better accuracy. Does either the 243 Montana or 7mm-08 excel in that area?
If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
given you wife will hunt it the .243! For the 7-08 I would go .308 as easily the most simple to load and shoot, I find the 308 easy get to shoot accurately and it comes in those big green boxes of 500 rounds per...
its too bad you don't reload the .257 Roberts I have in select classic is a wonderful rifle, (but I know nothing as its a short action and everyone knows they are awful with 100 at only 3000 FPS) but I would take a Montana in same any day.
I'd go 7-08. .243 will be fine for whitetails but life MAY be more than whitetails tomorrow. 7-08 is more versatile, recoil will be minimally more but added bullet weight is often appreciated. Here we have a collection of 7-08's, wife's Dakota, son-in law's Browning, 2 Remingtons for my daughter and self in long guns and one pistol. Shot everything from prairie poodles to elk, kudu and caribou, lost count on deer (assorted) and pronghorns. Reloading is a snap and 7mm bullets are offered in nearly any size and shape (110-175 grains for sure) but factory stuff is available and as good as it gets. Still in doubt flip a coin.
Better to just buy a 375 H&H, because life MAY include a cape buffalo hunt someday. It's more versatile than the 7mm-08, so that makes it better.
Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails. I'm not a reloader "yet" but will be as soon as a shop is completed and space is available.
What I want to know is, does either lend itself more easily to load development or bullet choices. I don't think in terms of throat length and mag confines or bullet choices, so I need to ask you guys. I would just like to pick the one that would more easily lend itself to the things a reloader does to achieve better accuracy. Does either the 243 Montana or 7mm-08 excel in that area?
If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
223 or 308 if you don't Reload. A schitty Colt Krunchenticker ain't even in the same book,let alone page...as a Montucky 223.
Now as the 243 vs 7-08 goes,in said platform...you is Hungchow in several ways. The 243 is 1-10" which sucks heavy ass and the 7-08 has more throat than box,though are twisted with enough RPM to do it all(which means 162's). I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243.
The 223 Montucky will be shot a whole [bleep] bunch more than anything else and along with the actual act of shooting,there is a byproduct of non-lineal "luck" that reliably begins to blossom.
Hint.
Now will a 223,243,7-08 and 308 shoot nice Agg's? Yes and reliably. Reliabler yet,is the dot connection of trigger time bolstering the daintytitude of relative Agg sizing. Conjoin light done right,in a handy/dandy parcel that is funner than [bleep] to shot and there will be a long line of patrons eagerly awaiting their turn. Good boolits,in good places...do great thangs.
Funny how it actually works.
Re-hint.
"I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243" I still don't know what you mean by that statement and I've read it several times. Do you mean the 243 is too light? If so how is the 223 a better choice? I'm talking a Whitetail only rifle and 200 yards is a long shot around here. I'm sure the 308 is extremely versatile but recoil is a consideration.
That may be but since my maximum distance would be 300 yards, do I really need to be concerned with high BC bullets? I mean wouldn't I be more likely to get an accurate load being able to kiss the lands, or is the point that those bullets that will kiss won't stabilize with the 1 in 10 twist?
Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails. I'm not a reloader "yet" but will be as soon as a shop is completed and space is available.
What I want to know is, does either lend itself more easily to load development or bullet choices. I don't think in terms of throat length and mag confines or bullet choices, so I need to ask you guys. I would just like to pick the one that would more easily lend itself to the things a reloader does to achieve better accuracy. Does either the 243 Montana or 7mm-08 excel in that area?
If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
223 or 308 if you don't Reload. A schitty Colt Krunchenticker ain't even in the same book,let alone page...as a Montucky 223.
Now as the 243 vs 7-08 goes,in said platform...you is Hungchow in several ways. The 243 is 1-10" which sucks heavy ass and the 7-08 has more throat than box,though are twisted with enough RPM to do it all(which means 162's). I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243.
The 223 Montucky will be shot a whole [bleep] bunch more than anything else and along with the actual act of shooting,there is a byproduct of non-lineal "luck" that reliably begins to blossom.
Hint.
Now will a 223,243,7-08 and 308 shoot nice Agg's? Yes and reliably. Reliabler yet,is the dot connection of trigger time bolstering the daintytitude of relative Agg sizing. Conjoin light done right,in a handy/dandy parcel that is funner than [bleep] to shot and there will be a long line of patrons eagerly awaiting their turn. Good boolits,in good places...do great thangs.
Funny how it actually works.
Re-hint.
"I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243" I still don't know what you mean by that statement and I've read it several times. Do you mean the 243 is too light? If so how is the 223 a better choice? I'm talking a Whitetail only rifle and 200 yards is a long shot around here. I'm sure the 308 is extremely versatile but recoil is a consideration.
He would rather shoot high BC 162 AMAX's in a 7mm-08 than low BC bullets in the 243. 243 has good bullets available, but the slow twist on the 243 Montana won't stabilize them. Accurate, high BC bullets will perform better for you than low BC bullets that kiss the rifling. If you are bound and determined to shoot low BC bullets out of a Montana, you may as well go down to the 223 - you'll burn 1/2 the powder and the recoil is so light it will encourage a lot of shooting. Lots of shooting is more important than chambering, BC, etc....
Going to buy one or the other in a few months. I'm not interested in discussing the effectiveness of either on Whitetails. I'm not a reloader "yet" but will be as soon as a shop is completed and space is available.
What I want to know is, does either lend itself more easily to load development or bullet choices. I don't think in terms of throat length and mag confines or bullet choices, so I need to ask you guys. I would just like to pick the one that would more easily lend itself to the things a reloader does to achieve better accuracy. Does either the 243 Montana or 7mm-08 excel in that area?
If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
223 or 308 if you don't Reload. A schitty Colt Krunchenticker ain't even in the same book,let alone page...as a Montucky 223.
Now as the 243 vs 7-08 goes,in said platform...you is Hungchow in several ways. The 243 is 1-10" which sucks heavy ass and the 7-08 has more throat than box,though are twisted with enough RPM to do it all(which means 162's). I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243.
The 223 Montucky will be shot a whole [bleep] bunch more than anything else and along with the actual act of shooting,there is a byproduct of non-lineal "luck" that reliably begins to blossom.
Hint.
Now will a 223,243,7-08 and 308 shoot nice Agg's? Yes and reliably. Reliabler yet,is the dot connection of trigger time bolstering the daintytitude of relative Agg sizing. Conjoin light done right,in a handy/dandy parcel that is funner than [bleep] to shot and there will be a long line of patrons eagerly awaiting their turn. Good boolits,in good places...do great thangs.
Funny how it actually works.
Re-hint.
"I'd rather leap a 162,than kiss a Ping Pong Ball in the 243" I still don't know what you mean by that statement and I've read it several times. Do you mean the 243 is too light? If so how is the 223 a better choice? I'm talking a Whitetail only rifle and 200 yards is a long shot around here. I'm sure the 308 is extremely versatile but recoil is a consideration.
He would rather shoot high BC 162 AMAX's in a 7mm-08 than low BC bullets in the 243. 243 has good bullets available, but the slow twist on the 243 Montana won't stabilize them. Accurate, high BC bullets will perform better for you than low BC bullets that kiss the rifling. If you are bound and determined to shoot low BC bullets out of a Montana, you may as well go down to the 223 - you'll burn 1/2 the powder and the recoil is so light it will encourage a lot of shooting. Lots of shooting is more important than chambering, BC, etc....
David
What do you mean by "high BC bullets will perform better" Do you mean be more accurate at 200 yard range or just that they will hold their energy and not drop as much at long range? Keep in mind that a 200 yard shot is a very long one where I hunt. I'm just wondering if the low BC but heavier bullet of the 243 won't be a better killer at the shorter range.
Guess I'm curious as to what the upside of a 1-10" twist is?
There's no downside when you're out hunting with one.
.500 = 105?
.420 = 90 Scenar. Which works in a 10".
.080 BC makes or breaks what?
Shooting steel at 800 yards?
I fail to see a problem.
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
If it's a wash, I'll likely pick the 243 since Whitetails will be the only game hunted and the kids or wife may use it at times, so recoil is a concern.
That may be but since my maximum distance would be 300 yards, do I really need to be concerned with high BC bullets? I mean wouldn't I be more likely to get an accurate load being able to kiss the lands, or is the point that those bullets that will kiss won't stabilize with the 1 in 10 twist?
Trying to learn something here.
You don't wanna be seating into the lands with a hunting load.
That may be but since my maximum distance would be 300 yards, do I really need to be concerned with high BC bullets? I mean wouldn't I be more likely to get an accurate load being able to kiss the lands, or is the point that those bullets that will kiss won't stabilize with the 1 in 10 twist?
Trying to learn something here.
A couple thoughts
Nosler manual #7 243 Winchester, 100 gr. Partition (similar to typical cup and core in ballistic co-efficient) BC: .384 MV, 2900 FPS 200 yd. zero 1.7� high @ 100 yds., 7.3� low at 300. 7mm-08, 140 gr. Accubond (my favorite in the 7mm-08) BC:.485 MV: 2800 fps 200 yd. zero, 1.8� high @ 100 yds., 7.7� low at 300.. I� I don�t know how the terrain is in your part of Alabama, but here it is thick. That taken with the fact that I am a meat hunter I almost never shoot past 300 yds. Additionally due to the fact that if an animal is not DRT, he many times is not found. A hole going in and one going out gives one two chances to find a blood trail. Conseqently I prefer a heavier bullet, usually 6.5 mm and up for hogs and deer. Now as to kissing the lands. It is my understanding that the chambers on production rifles are cut to SAAMI specs. Factory ammo is also loaded to SAAMI Specs. That means that any commercial ammo should chamber in any production rifle of the same caliber. I�ve owned many rifles from A to Z. It has been my experience on most that if one was to load the bullet out to where it kissed the lands, sometimes the base of the bullet does not even touch the case, much less fit in the rifles magazine. Typically magazine length is the most common limiting factor. Here is an example.
This is the detachable magazine for a Sako 75 Varmint, chambered for the 260 Remington. Sakos are generally accurate and their chambers are not known for sloppiness. Notice the Maximum OAL of the cartridge that can be loaded in the magazine is 2.940. I don't know how you are, but I prefer to have a little wiggle room in the magazine/cartridge box.
The SAAMI max OAL cartridge length for the 260 Remington is 2.800�. I�ve developed a load for my Sako at 2.900 inches. This particular cartridge measures 2.902.
If I do my part the Sako will put three in a ragged hole at 100 yds.
Next, using my Stoney Point OAL gauge and a 125 gr. Nosler Partition, here is the cartridge �kissing the lands�
As you can see, to load this round with the bullet �kissing the lands , the rifle would have to function as a single shot.
Good hunting and best of luck with whatever you choose.
That may be but since my maximum distance would be 300 yards, do I really need to be concerned with high BC bullets? I mean wouldn't I be more likely to get an accurate load being able to kiss the lands, or is the point that those bullets that will kiss won't stabilize with the 1 in 10 twist?
Trying to learn something here.
A couple thoughts
Nosler manual #7 243 Winchester, 100 gr. Partition (similar to typical cup and core in ballistic co-efficient) BC: .384 MV, 2900 FPS 200 yd. zero 1.7� high @ 100 yds., 7.3� low at 300. 7mm-08, 140 gr. Accubond (my favorite in the 7mm-08) BC:.485 MV: 2800 fps 200 yd. zero, 1.8� high @ 100 yds., 7.7� low at 300.. I� I don�t know how the terrain is in your part of Alabama, but here it is thick. That taken with the fact that I am a meat hunter I almost never shoot past 300 yds. Additionally due to the fact that if an animal is not DRT, he many times is not found. A hole going in and one going out gives one two chances to find a blood trail. Conseqently I prefer a heavier bullet, usually 6.5 mm and up for hogs and deer. Now as to kissing the lands. It is my understanding that the chambers on production rifles are cut to SAAMI specs. Factory ammo is also loaded to SAAMI Specs. That means that any commercial ammo should chamber in any production rifle of the same caliber. I�ve owned many rifles from A to Z. It has been my experience on most that if one was to load the bullet out to where it kissed the lands, sometimes the base of the bullet does not even touch the case, much less fit in the rifles magazine. Typically magazine length is the most common limiting factor. Here is an example.
This is the detachable magazine for a Sako 75 Varmint, chambered for the 260 Remington. Sakos are generally accurate and their chambers are not known for sloppiness. Notice the Maximum OAL of the cartridge that can be loaded in the magazine is 2.940. I don't know how you are, but I prefer to have a little wiggle room in the magazine/cartridge box.
The SAAMI max OAL cartridge length for the 260 Remington is 2.800�. I�ve developed a load for my Sako at 2.900 inches. This particular cartridge measures 2.902.
If I do my part the Sako will put three in a ragged hole at 100 yds.
Next, using my Stoney Point OAL gauge and a 125 gr. Nosler Partition, here is the cartridge �kissing the lands�
As you can see, to load this round with the bullet �kissing the lands , the rifle would have to function as a single shot.
Good hunting and best of luck with whatever you choose.
Best,
GWB
Thank you very much sir for the tutorial. I really need to learn a few things about reloading. Basically trying to buy the cart before I know the size of the horse.
It was admittedly funnier than [bleep] schit and I especially enjoyed:
"It has been my experience on most that if one was to load the bullet out to where it kissed the lands, sometimes the base of the bullet does not even touch the case"
Where do these incredibly inept dumbfhukks come from?!?
Clark, given the parameters you have stated, the wife and kids and you don't reload. I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of shooting or hunting (not a slam). I'd pick the 243 over the 223 and the 7-08, and not worry about all the rest.
Added - I wouldn't pick a Montana for a first rifle either.
Good luck with your choice.
AJD
Last edited by AJD; 02/21/14.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however, Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
Here is a very accurate Winchester model 70 push feed (post 64), chambered for the 270 Winchester. It has a Shilen select chrome moly barrel that has been fitted to the action. So it is not a �stock� chamber.
Here is the kind of accuracy it is capable of.
Two shots only you say. Once I�ve developed a load and have zero�d the rifle, I�m much more interested in where the first shot out of a cold barrel is going to impact. In this case the rifle was shot once, then about an hour later it was shot again to confirm POI vs. POA. With this in mind before I go afield, I�m confident.
Here is the measurement on the cartridge box.
The SAAMI max OAL cartridge length is given at 3.340�. My go to load in this rifle is with a 130 Gr. Nosler Ballistic tip with an OAL of3.355 or .015� over max, and no where near �kissing� the lands��
To �kiss� the COAL would be 3.547, well in excess of the Max length that would fit in the magazine. Once again if you wanted a single shot, that would be no problem except����.
To kiss the lands you would have only about .220� of purchase on the bullet by my measurement. IIRC one should have at least one cartridge diameter purchase or in this case, .277� of the bullet inside the case. Concentricity is a factor in accuracy and a mis-aligned bullet can cause you grief.
I know it might be heresy to say so, but after20 years of reloading, I don�t worry about kissing the lands other than to make sure the rifle�s chamber will accept rounds loaded to SAAMI book length. At my zenith I had reloading dies for 57 different centerfire cartridges between 17 ackley hornet and 458 Lott. Most all were started near �book� OAL.
The Kimber Motana in the caliber you choose will be a hunting gun, not a high dollar bench rest gun. It will have a commercial chamber. Factory ammo will do 1.5� at 100 yds or better. I�d be willing to bet that 90% of your shots will be 200 yds or less. Go out, kill stuff, enjoy the meat and don�t look back.
IIRC one should have at least one cartridge diameter purchase or in this case
I've heard this rule too, but it makes loading anything for the .300 Winchester Mag impossible. which makes me skeptical of the rule, bc my .300 win mag seem to work pretty well (other than the excessive noise & recoil ...).
Clark, given the parameters you have stated, the wife and kids and you don't reload. I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of shooting or hunting (not a slam). I'd pick the 243 over the 223 and the 7-08, and not worry about all the rest.
Added - I wouldn't pick a Montana for a first rifle either.
Good luck with your choice.
AJD
Thanks but I own several very nice rifles and have killed truck loads of deer with factory ammo. I do plan to start reloading and I do shoot more smallbore than centerfire. I don't need a rifle. I just want an ultralight weight that I can play with and that is well capable of deer at 200 or under yards. I thought a 243 was a good idea but Boxer has me thinking about heavier bullets in a 223 since they would only be 10-15 grains lighter than what I would shoot in the 243 anyway and use less powder, recoil less and give longer barrel life.
Clark, given the parameters you have stated, the wife and kids and you don't reload. I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of shooting or hunting (not a slam). I'd pick the 243 over the 223 and the 7-08, and not worry about all the rest.
Added - I wouldn't pick a Montana for a first rifle either.
Good luck with your choice.
AJD
Thanks but I own several very nice rifles and have killed truck loads of deer with factory ammo. I do plan to start reloading and I do shoot more smallbore than centerfire. I don't need a rifle. I just want an ultralight weight that I can play with and that is well capable of deer at 200 or under yards. I thought a 243 was a good idea but Boxer has me thinking about heavier bullets in a 223 since they would only be 10-15 grains lighter than what I would shoot in the 243 anyway and use less powder, recoil less and give longer barrel life.
Outfit yourself for loading your own ammo before buying a new rifle. It'll make all the ones you currently have more interesting.
IIRC one should have at least one cartridge diameter purchase or in this case
I've heard this rule too, but it makes loading anything for the .300 Winchester Mag impossible. which makes me skeptical of the rule, bc my .300 win mag seem to work pretty well (other than the excessive noise & recoil ...).
Sir, respectfully
here is a 300 Win Mag factory cartridge, 150 gr. Tipped Barnes bullet. COAL is 3.305" SAAMI Max is 3.340OAL.
Note the pix. there are two markings on the 150 gr. Ballistic tip (green tip). The mark closest to the tip is COAL 3.340" the second closest to the case mouth is 3.305". This would allow for a minimum of .490" of bullet purchase, significantly more than .308"
The second bullet is a 200 grain Nosler Accubond. By my measurement there will be approx. .813" of bullet inside the case at a COAL of 3.340".
If going the .223 route, twist will be important. On the Kimber's (1-9), it seems to be hit or miss on whether they'll stabilize the 75gr. A-Max.
Unfortunately, my Montana is a miss with the A-Max. I've got some 69gr. Scenars and 62gr. TSX I'm going to test this weekend in the Montana.
If nothing else, the 55gr. TTSX shoots very well in my rifle, and kills deer and feral hogs with aplomb!
Thanks for the insight. Do you have just as much confidence on deer and hogs with the 223 as a 243 with an 80 or 85 grain TTSX or an 85 grain Gameking? I've had good results with the Gameking in 243. Do you think the Montana would shoot these 243 bullets as well as one of the 223's you mentioned?
I would be interested to hear how the 69 Scenars and 62 TSX's shoot for you.
Clark, given the parameters you have stated, the wife and kids and you don't reload. I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of shooting or hunting (not a slam). I'd pick the 243 over the 223 and the 7-08, and not worry about all the rest.
Added - I wouldn't pick a Montana for a first rifle either.
Good luck with your choice.
AJD
Thanks but I own several very nice rifles and have killed truck loads of deer with factory ammo. I do plan to start reloading and I do shoot more smallbore than centerfire. I don't need a rifle. I just want an ultralight weight that I can play with and that is well capable of deer at 200 or under yards. I thought a 243 was a good idea but Boxer has me thinking about heavier bullets in a 223 since they would only be 10-15 grains lighter than what I would shoot in the 243 anyway and use less powder, recoil less and give longer barrel life.
10-4 Rock on!
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however, Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
IIRC one should have at least one cartridge diameter purchase or in this case
I've heard this rule too, but it makes loading anything for the .300 Winchester Mag impossible. which makes me skeptical of the rule, bc my .300 win mag seem to work pretty well (other than the excessive noise & recoil ...).
Sir, respectfully
here is a 300 Win Mag factory cartridge, 150 gr. Tipped Barnes bullet. COAL is 3.305" SAAMI Max is 3.340OAL.
Note the pix. there are two markings on the 150 gr. Ballistic tip (green tip). The mark closest to the tip is COAL 3.340" the second closest to the case mouth is 3.305". This would allow for a minimum of .490" of bullet purchase, significantly more than .308"
The second bullet is a 200 grain Nosler Accubond. By my measurement there will be approx. .813" of bullet inside the case at a COAL of 3.340".
Best,
GWB
GWB, I believe that old theory refers to the length of the case neck, which is the only part of the case holding the bullet. The neck length on a 300 WM is approximately 0.265". Thus it is "less than one caliber" i.e. less than .308" in length. It is an old theory which has been shown by results to not be meaningful as 300 WM's have a long-established record for accuracy.
I think his point is that the neck on the .300WM is only .264", so the most the bearing surface of the bullet can be gripped by the neck is .264", regardless of whether you seat it deeper into the case or not.
Oh I'm a huge fan of the 223, and it would be a delightful choice with other bullet options. But with the Kimber it's not quite as simple as just loading up 75s and killing stuff. Modifications need to take place.
The 243 is simply the easiest way to get from A to B, and good accurate factory ammo is available if the OP decides not to reload.
Oh I'm a huge fan of the 223, and it would be a delightful choice with other bullet options. But with the Kimber it's not quite as simple as just loading up 75s and killing stuff. Modifications need to take place.
The 243 is simply the easiest way to get from A to B, and good accurate factory ammo is available if the OP decides not to reload.
IIRC one should have at least one cartridge diameter purchase or in this case
I've heard this rule too, but it makes loading anything for the .300 Winchester Mag impossible. which makes me skeptical of the rule, bc my .300 win mag seem to work pretty well (other than the excessive noise & recoil ...).
Sir, respectfully
here is a 300 Win Mag factory cartridge, 150 gr. Tipped Barnes bullet. COAL is 3.305" SAAMI Max is 3.340OAL.
Note the pix. there are two markings on the 150 gr. Ballistic tip (green tip). The mark closest to the tip is COAL 3.340" the second closest to the case mouth is 3.305". This would allow for a minimum of .490" of bullet purchase, significantly more than .308"
The second bullet is a 200 grain Nosler Accubond. By my measurement there will be approx. .813" of bullet inside the case at a COAL of 3.340".
Best,
GWB
Gdub, oh I hear ya on seating the bullet as deep as you want. But as ive heard it opined, the point of the rule was neck engagement/tension. the .300 win mag cain't have a minimum .308" of neck engagement to boolit.
Whilst kissing 75's would require some minor mods to a .223 Montana, the 62X COAL is well within .223 mag confines and is a mean motor scooter when launched at 3k+ in its SAAMI form.
Don't forget that some States have a .243 minimum for deer....
Gdub, oh I hear ya on seating the bullet as deep as you want. But as ive heard it opined, the point of the rule was neck engagement/tension. the .300 win mag cain't have a minimum .308" of neck engagement to boolit.
Sir,
My apologies to you.
In that regard you were/are correct and I was wrong.
As I tell my kids, I knew that once, but I've slept since yesterday.
Without trying to beat it to death, I guess one of my pet peeves was showing. I tend to be an iconoclast.
I've loaded many different chamberings in numerous calibers, most, production rifles.
If I counted right, the pix above contains 36 different modified cases. In developing loads to be used to kill stuff in the past, I always checked out the max OAL cartridge lengths each rifle would accommodate. As stated previously many rifles are long throated. Over the years, I've almost quit loading "off the lands. Maybe I should call it Gdub's rule, but I want at least a cartridge diameter of bullet inside the case mouth. I may neck size with a collet die or even polish an expander ball to get more neck tension, but for concentric loads one needs sufficient purchase on a bullet. I still determine COAL, but typically load a few thousandths over the SAAMI book OAL.
The Texas version of everything...is just [bleep] simply hilarious!
Really enjoyed the Treatise on the Goat [bleep] Custom 270.
Re-WOW.
Simply shut the [bleep] up,take notes and apply same. You are in sooooooo far over your [bleep] head,that it's a shame it's beyond your comprehension to savvy.
Hint.
'dawg6,
It bears fruit to pay heed to constriction values and I've long been a .003" Slut of the highest magnitude,due the beauty of moly and it's inherent attributes.
'Course lotsa folks miss that one too.
pointer,
I'd submit that a Montucky 223 flingin' Factory Fodder,would play hell on the Venison population.
'Course I'm granting the courtesy of there being no crossed-eyes,in the equation.(grin)
FO',
I hear good thangs about reserve RPM.
Even in a "lowly" 223.(grin)
'goat,
I'd rather mod a mag to kiss a 75'Max in 223...than Imagine to Pretend that it's "difficult" and refrain the inherent splendor.
'Course ignorance is Bliss and you are on a [bleep] roll!
Laffin'!
WYC,
Boolits matter more than headstamps and the pinnacle in 223,is the 75A-Max.
Hint.
'Clark,
It don't get easier,simpler or funner than a 223.
Yesssssssssss...that'd be another [bleep] hint.
Hint.
'gant,
The 75'Max in the Montucky has no equal,though in fairness...I do squirt 62's quite a lot faster than 3Kfps.
Hint.
Brad,
You Whining Do Nothing Kchunt...there sure as schit ain't no way to slight how WELLfounded your insecurities are.
As per always,I'm looking forward to another Whine and more Excuses,frosted copiously with your Imagination and Pretend,in no particular [bleep] order.
Laffin'!
Someone who "knows" as "much" as you,is always best served by asking questions,instead of giving "answers".
Bless your heart.
You should stay with making burgers,instead of talking out your ass.
It certainly weren't my intent to infer in the slightest,that I don't get a kick outta your doing your best and the oblivious hilarity inherent them feeble efforts and incredible ineptitude.
Congratulations?!?
I'll feign my "surprise",that you quit trying to talk about Rifles...despite the great strides you thought you were making.
Laffin'!
Looking forward as per always,to more of your dumbfhukktitude.
It certainly weren't my intent to infer in the slightest,that I don't get a kick outta your doing your best and the oblivious hilarity inherent them feeble efforts and incredible ineptitude.
Congratulations?!?
I'll feign my "surprise",that you quit trying to talk about Rifles...despite the great strides you thought you were making.
Laffin'!
Looking forward as per always,to more of your dumbfhukktitude.
B,
No problem,
keep a sharp eye peeled.
As I told you in 2010 at our first acquaintance on AR, and mid-way last year, here, bring your lunch. We'll be havin' a ball.
Seems there are reportedly about 4,000,000 hoglets in Texas
I'll feign my "surprise",that your sharing "all" your Reloading "experience" has come to a closure. Too bad,because that schit was especially [bleep] hilarious! Fascinating to me,that so many clueless [bleep] wish to brag upon how incredibly slow they "learn". The Geriatric Jeff-O "Learning" Curve is poignantly poetic. Laffin'!
Now you wish to reiterate your being a Turd in a punch bowl and thatcha' giggle when you bite the bubbles?!?
Compelling,as always.
Laffin'!
You'll always do better taking notes and applying same.
The 75'Max in the Montucky has no equal,though in fairness...I do squirt 62's quite a lot faster than 3Kfps.
Hint.
You's preachin' to the choir. You usually don't miss much but I did say 3k *+* for squirting 62's for those that are slow outta the gate, while giving the 62X option for those that aren't equally skilled in the art and 'smithing with a dremel, hammer and screwdriver to achieve 75 'Max bliss.... *grin*
For kids, wife, and you... plus deer at 200y or less seems like a 223 would be an absolute blast. Wouldn't even worry about the 75gr AMAX, yet. Deal with that later.
Like this idea myself. Even saw some 223 cat-fart loads in the Hodgdon manual. Not sure how accurate, but would be a heck of a way to get the kids going if jumping from rimfire to centerfire is too much. And, in the same rifle they'll shoot the real loads. Probably just need a few to make the transition.
Had a Salvage in 243 with milk-jug stock that I bought just for the action. Before dismantling it, I shot a few boxes for why-not. Was actually surprised by how much recoil it had! Was expecting less, much less. Not a heavy kicker of course, but more obnoxious that I thought it would be with factory ammo. Had a lightweight 300 Win Mag fetish at that time so I was not recoil shy either.
I think that ~6.25lb Salvage 243 would be too much for many smaller kids and probably many women especially from prone or in volume. Even if it weren't, I don't see how anyone could argue that they'd not shoot more in 223. Once my boys are old enough, I want them shooting buckets of 223. Not just 10 or 20 rounds of 243.
A 243 Kimber will be much nicer than that Salvage by a mile, but it will still be over 1-lb. lighter. A 223 just seems to make more sense for what you want/need.
Hey Gee, what's the scope on that Kimber? I know it's a Leupold, but that's all I can tell. Sort of looks like my 2.5-8x36.
Mike
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
Yea, I might wind up with the 223 Montana, but I have a Colt 6720 that weighs 6 lbs 0.36 ounces without the scope and mount. Yea, the Kimber would be nearly a pound lighter but the Colt fits the wife and kids well with stock all in, and the weight is distributed well for weak arms to hold. It also has a very nice Geissele trigger and 7 twist to play with.
243 sounds nice with lighter bullets in the 80's. A little more umph than the 223 if I'm not mistaken, but then if the Montana 223 shoots the heavies well, there isn't really that much difference in bullet weight, thus my conundrum.
I also own a very nice 243 Sako L579 Deluxe, which made me think about the Kimber in 7mm-08 or even possibly 308, but I don't want to wind up with so much recoil that no one will shoot it except me and I won't even find it pleasant.
You seem like you're in a panic. Kimber to Tikkler, back to Kimber. Slow down dude !
Your Colt is 7-twist but you still got mag limits. And they don't carry as well as a Montucky, at least to me.
Low recoil, high volume shooting, extreme familiarity with rifle (and load) all lead to stacking of bullets from various shooting positions. If not, then repeat until the kinks are ironed out. But low recoil makes this easier.
If the wife and kids don't get the hang of shooting a lightweight-08 (243, 260, 7-08, 308), you'll have bruised shoulders, flinching brains, and a family that don't want to shoot. Then what? Let the shoulders heal, fix the flinch (have fun with that!), and get a 223 .
You're only shooting deer. And deer at 200 yards and less. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in power or "umph", or the 75gr AMAX which is a good bullet for longer ranges. Shoot another bullet in the Kimber, for now.
I'd worry more about getting the wife and kids to shoot bucket loads of ammo so they have extreme confidence in the rifle, load, and their abilities. Make the family full of dead-eye centerfire shooters and they'll put the bullets on the deer. Unless you guys are all naturals at shooting a centerfire, practice will be your friend and recoil affects everyone whether they admit it or not.
There, I think I just convinced myself to get a 223 for our boys .
Gee: Nice. I put that same Leupold on my M70 7x57. It's perfect balance for that gun, not too big, not too small.
I don't want to hijack the thread, so back to the OP's question: .243 or 7-08?
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
Thanks Jason. I'm not really as panicky as I sound. I'm just nearly obsessive compulsive about details and options. I'm bad to research a decision to death. Still going to be a little while before I buy, but I "MUST" explore all my options.LOL
Gee: Nice. I put that same Leupold on my M70 7x57. It's perfect balance for that gun, not too big, not too small.
I don't want to hijack the thread, so back to the OP's question: .243 or 7-08?
Except now it's evolved to 243 VS 223.LOL
And don't forget the .260!!
Although I did throw in the 7x57 just to see if we could raise Ingwe to the bait.
"An archer sees how far he can be from a target and still hit it, a bowhunter sees how close he can get before he shoots." It is certainly easy to use that same line of thinking with firearms. -- Unknown
What's the old song, That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
I realize this is purely subjective, but my experience with Kimbers is kinda like a roll of the dice. Don't always know what your gonna get. With Sakos and Coopers, I've not had that problem.
When Kimber first came out with the short mags, 300 WSM was first.
I picked out an absolutely exquisite Classic in 300 WSM. Did my standard barrel break in. It was finicky from the start.IIRC the only bullet I could get to group consistently was the 180 gr. Nosler Partiton, which was no problem as I like Nosler. Even with the partitions, it was an 1.5" at 100 yd. rifle. I took it with me on a hunt at the lease I was on at the time. Spent the weekend there by myself. Would go up on Thursday and stay through Tuesday. Monday morning that trip I was sitting in a ground blind. It was approaching 11 AM as I recall. I was getting antsy as I'd been there since about an hour before daybreak. I'm getting ready to pack up when I see motion in the foreground. I immediately bring up the binocs and lay eyes on the best deer I've ever seen in my life strolling straight toward me. He's probably 200 yds, moving through the trees my way. I get ready and watch him to about 120 yds. I whistle and he stops. I fire. He stands there. I eject the empty and fire again. He's still standing but getting antsy. So I fire again. This time he turns and trots off. Mind you I hear no whop of the bullet, don't see him flinch. Nothing. So I look for blood for about two hours and don't see a drop. Bummer.
Later that afternoon I'm heading to a spot at the back of the ranch about two miles away. I'm on my four wheeler and go down in to a draw and back up. After I top the draw I come face to face with a fine mature 8 point buck. He don't spook, he just keeps walking toward an opening in the brush 30 yds. or so away. I have the rifle slung on my back. I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber. I unsling the rifle, go to chamber a round and it pops out and falls o the dirt. I try a second time and this time the two remaining cartridges pop up and out. Meantime the buck slips into the Juniper. Two fine shooters missed in one day. If I hadn't paid $1300 for the rifle and about $500 for the scope I'd have wrapped it around the nearest tree I was so pissed. When I got back to town I traded in on a Remington 700 C grade in 270 Win. Not only had I missed 3 shots off a rest at 120 yds, but it had misfed or I had short stroked. Whatever, I figured the rifle had bad JuJu.
Classic #2. About two months after I bought Classic number 1 I purchased a Kimber in 270 WSM. It had pretter wood than the first. I figured what the hey, the problem with the first shouldn't keep me from enjoying this Kimber. Well once again I was sitting in a 4'x 4' enclosed blind at the junction of two power line right of ways. I had a shot on a buck about 120 yds. I drew a bead and squeezed. Click, but no boom. I thought what the heck. I know I put a shell in the chamber. I pull the rifle inside the blind, set the stock on the floor, hold it out almost at arms lenght to cycle the bolt. When I got to lift the bolt handle, the rifle fires, putting a hole in the roof and almost knocking me out with the blast, concussion and decibels. Freaked me smooth out. The deer ran off and I went back to camp once I cleaned out my shorts and regained my composure. When I got back I tried firing it off the bench and the same thing happened. So I took it back to where I'd bought it and asked them to send it back to the manufacturer. I sure didn't want some unsuspecting person to own that rifle.
The other classics and Montanas I liked, and had no mechanical problems with. I don't remember any of them being sub inch at 100 shooters though.
I had the Montanas in 260 Rem, 308 Win. and 325 WSM.
The 260 I bought new and loved it. However I had a fellow that I knew that had one and wanted to have its match for his son. He made me an offer I could not refuse. The others were pretty much the same. I bought them at a price where I could develop loads, shoot and take game with them and turn for a profit. I figure its hard to lose by making a profit.
The 325 WSM Montana was a fine shooter also, but when Nosler came out with their Model 48 in the Custom Sporter I grabbed that and have not looked back. I've an illuminated Leupold on it and it has become my favorite dark-thirty hog thumper.
I sold the Montana.
I had owned numerous Sakos before I purchased my first Kimber. About this same time I became serious about collecting Coopers. Coopers were mainly single shot models 21, 22 and 38 at the time.However, for the type of hunting I do, a repeater is not necessary. I could buy the Coopers at about 60% of MSRP, enjoy them and get out with a profit if I so desired. I could not do that with Kimbers, and for my money the Coopers had better fit, finish, triggers, were a ton more accurate, and were consistently good to go. I'd say out of 40 rifles between Cooper and Sako I've had one bad Sako, and it was a manufacturing defect peculiar to that run of chambers.
Thanks Jason. I'm not really as panicky as I sound. I'm just nearly obsessive compulsive about details and options. I'm bad to research a decision to death. Still going to be a little while before I buy, but I "MUST" explore all my options.LOL
Buy pre-enjoyed at a value, then if you find you've made a mistake, blow it out and go on to the next one. You'll lose very little money if any at all. I kinda assuage my guilt should I lose money on a deal by asking myself, how much do I spend taking the wife and kids and thier wives and kids to dinner. Usually perks me up to think how much more thrifty it is to lose money on a rifle (which don' happen often).
Take recoil and versatility for different game out of the equation. Is either designed so that it can more easily be loaded for accuracy?
You can look at the recent thread asking what has been your experience with the 243 to see that it pretty consistently shoots well. and if I was going to shoot varmints as well as deer that is probably the way I'd go.
However my buddy's 7mm-08 shoots pretty well with little fuss too so to answer the question as you posed it above I would say No. You will probably see as much variation or finicky tendencies from rifle to rifle as you will between the two cartridges you mention unless you are talking a bench rail gun then you might see a minute difference and as to which of the two would win I have no idea, but in a sporter weight rifle No.
I was just reviewing this thread and missed it the first pass that you already have a 243 and 223. In that case IMHO it would be 7mm08 all the way.
You crack me the [bleep] up with your Stupidity and utter cluelessness...which in fairness,is very impressive. Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'gant,
I like my 75's at 3150 and 62's at 3400fps,when talking a 21" .378" boltface.
Still hearing good thangs,about a Montucky launched 75A-Max kiss.
4th,
Slide magbox shim rearward to allow kisstitude COAL and it's land chasin'. Affix same into position,shorten bolt stop and rock on.
For Artistic Flair...flare the fore section of the ejection port,for Style Points.
Farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from being "daunting".
Hint.
'Clark,
Again,the 6720 is an EPIC Goat [bleep] compared to a Montucky. The 1-7" is moot,due mag constraints...unless you've an affinity for single-shot Gas Guns. I do not. The Geissle is a Goat [bleep],compared to a Montucky trigger...not even in the same Universe. Cheer up,I've prolly got lotsa Gas Guns,so am afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess.
The Montucky 223 is soooooooooo your Huckleberry.
Re-Hint.
Hint.
You ain't payin' much attention.
Hint-hint.
Hint.
You've been led to water...and I'm hopin' you don't drink.(grin)
'eye,
The more dots connected,the better things get.
It's ALL about twist rate,throat geometry and COAL latitude...simply because boolits matter more than headstamps. Connect them dots and conjoin fun and you've a Montucky 223.
Hint.
Spent primers are THE Supreme Tutorial and everyone fabricates reasons not to shoot,which admittedly cracks me the [bleep] up.
I wasn't musing supposition,just stating simple fact(s).
One can never tell if a Texan is bitching or bragging,because their best is soooooo [bleep] shy of the mark.
I very much enjoy the Haybale & Crockett affairs from The Golf Cart Gang and it only gets better when you stupid [bleep] really pull out the stops and start talking about rifles,boolits,glass and other "particulars". You "hard chargers" are a [bleep] riot,with your daring "exploits" of The Barbed Wire Chronicles!
You couldn't knock the new offa used pair of boots.
I'm crying I'm laughing so hard! Bless your heart,for being oblivious to the inherent hilarity.
Men secure in their manhood wear Crocs and shoot 270's.
and those that are stupid enough to go fox callin' in August when its 104 degrees in the shade at 6:30 pm.
Trick is, when its hot like that, don't bathe or shower for three or four days, and the hogs come runnin'. They think you're one of their long lost cousins.
Not so much these days, now I'm saved, shaved and well behaved, but there was a time...........
Saw Alvin Lee and 10 years after around 1970 or 71 in Houston, Texas at a place call the "Catacombs". I was in a mind altered state and he was wearin' clogs. Went out and got me a pair the next day at Pier 1 IIRC.
What's the old song, That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
I picked out an absolutely exquisite Classic in 300 WSM. Did my standard barrel break in. It was finicky from the start.IIRC the only bullet I could get to group consistently was the 180 gr. Nosler Partiton, which was no problem as I like Nosler. Even with the partitions, it was an 1.5" at 100 yd. rifle. I took it with me on a hunt at the lease I was on at the time. Spent the weekend there by myself. Would go up on Thursday and stay through Tuesday. Monday morning that trip I was sitting in a ground blind. It was approaching 11 AM as I recall. I was getting antsy as I'd been there since about an hour before daybreak. I'm getting ready to pack up when I see motion in the foreground. I immediately bring up the binocs and lay eyes on the best deer I've ever seen in my life strolling straight toward me. He's probably 200 yds, moving through the trees my way. I get ready and watch him to about 120 yds. I whistle and he stops. I fire. He stands there. I eject the empty and fire again. He's still standing but getting antsy. So I fire again. This time he turns and trots off. Mind you I hear no whop of the bullet, don't see him flinch. Nothing. So I look for blood for about two hours and don't see a drop. Bummer.
Later that afternoon I'm heading to a spot at the back of the ranch about two miles away. I'm on my four wheeler and go down in to a draw and back up. After I top the draw I come face to face with a fine mature 8 point buck. He don't spook, he just keeps walking toward an opening in the brush 30 yds. or so away. I have the rifle slung on my back. I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber. I unsling the rifle, go to chamber a round and it pops out and falls o the dirt. I try a second time and this time the two remaining cartridges pop up and out. Meantime the buck slips into the Juniper. Two fine shooters missed in one day. If I hadn't paid $1300 for the rifle and about $500 for the scope I'd have wrapped it around the nearest tree I was so pissed. When I got back to town I traded in on a Remington 700 C grade in 270 Win. Not only had I missed 3 shots off a rest at 120 yds, but it had misfed or I had short stroked. Whatever, I figured the rifle had bad JuJu.
Classic #2. About two months after I bought Classic number 1 I purchased a Kimber in 270 WSM. It had pretter wood than the first. I figured what the hey, the problem with the first shouldn't keep me from enjoying this Kimber. Well once again I was sitting in a 4'x 4' enclosed blind at the junction of two power line right of ways. I had a shot on a buck about 120 yds. I drew a bead and squeezed. Click, but no boom. I thought what the heck. I know I put a shell in the chamber. I pull the rifle inside the blind, set the stock on the floor, hold it out almost at arms lenght to cycle the bolt. When I got to lift the bolt handle, the rifle fires, putting a hole in the roof and almost knocking me out with the blast, concussion and decibels. Freaked me smooth out. The deer ran off and I went back to camp once I cleaned out my shorts and regained my composure. When I got back I tried firing it off the bench and the same thing happened. So I took it back to where I'd bought it and asked them to send it back to the manufacturer. I sure didn't want some unsuspecting person to own that rifle.
Given the plethora of variables above, I would proffer that the discerning reader might find one constant in the equation, and it's likely not a Kimber.
Being a junk man at heart, I am always pickin' through other folks used items. Can't help it. I picked up this action about 10 years ago. Never did any thing with it. The price was right and ya never can tell!
Sako S491 action
A couple years after I picked up the Sako action, a fellow had a used Richards Microfit thumbhole stock for sale. Turns out it just happened to be glass bedded for a Sako S491 action, once again, the price was right. Couldn't resist.
Fast forward to a year or so ago when I started postin' on 24hour consitently, As stated above, I'm pretty comfortable in my own skin, but what with all the wankers here and their fast twist Ackleys, it made me feel like a dwarf at Chippendale's. My equipment just wasn't cuttin' it.
So I got the hankerin' for a small caliber chambering with a fast twist barrel. Turns out a friend had a 1 in 8" twist Shilen Select Match stainless barrel layin' around his shop. Even had a 223 AI reamer and a Vais brake. I guess gunsmiths are like barbers. I told him I wanted to build a walking varminter, 22" barrel with a contour like a Remmy LVSF. You see what I got. LOL
Well, a few dollars traded hands, I pulled out an old scope I'd basically gotten free from another deal and tossed them into a feed barrel and rolled it down a hill at the lease. When I pulled the lid, dang if a Spare Parts Rifle didn't pop out.
Sako S491 action, Richards laminate thumbhole stock. Twenty-six inch Shilen Select Match Barrel, Vais Brake, chambered for 223 AI, Burris 8 x 32 Signature Scope.
But, it makes an impression on critters........
and shoots 36 gr. thru 82 grainers pretty much to the same point of impact and you can see the hit.
It remains a shame,that you are devoid any inkling to your impressive cluelessness.
But it do make for EPIC [bleep] hilarity! Laffin'!
One could spin you (1) revolution atop a haybale and you wouldn't be able to find your way back to the Golf Cart.
Bless your heart.
Brad,
Say a leetle sumptin' more about Burger King and gettin' wayyyyy out there via KOA Campground(s).
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
Laffin'!
'99,
Who dressed you this morning and chewed your food for you?
Laffin'!
'CUBIC,
Don't be so harsh,as I rather enjoy the harrowing "Adventures" of The Do Nothing Gang and the fascinating "particulars" of the wares they put to "use".
Saturday Night Live don't have schit half this funny and these poor stupid [bleep] are doing their best,not to be.(grin)
RH Clark what did you decide to buy? If your over near Atlanta anytime soon you can shoot my whiney do nothing select classic Roberts.
Thanks for the offer my friend. I may take you up on it. Still exploring the possibilities but the decision may be made by availability when I get ready to buy. Likely be a little later this summer.
You'd think someone woulda been out bangin' Krunchentickers in extrapolation to a Montucky or two,if only to see just WTF do what and more importantly why.
Mebbe some day,someone will...as I'd be curious to hear them findings.
You just know a 25 has got whoop a 6mm's ass too...especially when the 25 hull is sooooo much longer and hangin' in a like length action.
Sucks that a lowly 105 poly-tipped 6mm,is longer than a poly-tipped 25 115-grainer. Real bummer there,especially because the case is shorter too. Laffin'!
These Clueless Dumbfhukkers have me at a distinct disadvantage,because I don't shoot nearly as much as they do and simply a whole [bleep] bunch more than they could begin to [bleep] fathom.
You'll haveta' pardon my being afforded the luxury,of not being forced to guess. Though in fairness,I reckon I'll never tire of the inherent hilarity of The Do Nothing Gang doing their best.
The Texas version of everything...is simply a [bleep] riot!
There ain't no slightin' that your incredible ineptitude,do run an amazing constant. Laffin'!
Here's to 90PSI body cavities and swelterin' steaks drum tight in the sun...as you try and dupe yourself into "thinking" you've a first [bleep] clue about anything,other than bitin' bubbles in the 'tub.
Bless your heart,because your best is just oh so [bleep] amazingly shy of the mark.
Boxer In your first post on this thread you said 308 or 223. Can the 308 Montana be loaded down to kid recoil levels and still retain good accuracy and effectiveness when the shot will likely be around 100 yards or even less? If it can be then it might be the answer. I can handle the recoil fine and the kids and wife would only use it occasionally.
Boxer In your first post on this thread you said 308 or 223. Can the 308 Montana be loaded down to kid recoil levels and still retain good accuracy and effectiveness when the shot will likely be around 100 yards or even less? If it can be then it might be the answer. I can handle the recoil fine and the kids and wife would only use it occasionally.
Not Boxer, but I used to shoot mine with the 130 TSX at 300 Savage velocities and it was a pu$$y cat.
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General John Stark.
Thanks guys. I looked enough to know there were a bunch of reduced loads for a 308 but wondered if any of the lighter ones made recoil feel equivalent to 243 levels. I do appreciate the straight talk and polite attitude.
Also wondered if such loads would work well in the Montana 308 for short range deer. I will be reloading as soon as I acquire the space, via a shop.
One of the best hunting investments you'll ever make is buying a good rifle and scope for your wife and/or kids.
As B- often says rightly, start at the start.
In this case, that would be buy them something that fits them, not you.
Rifle fit has a great influence on felt recoil.
They likely will need a shorter rifle. Make sure the scope is positioned and adjusted for them, not you, to be comfortable. The investment will be paid back many times over.
And yes, the 308 lower power loads will kill things very dead, as will 243 and 223.
One of the best hunting investments you'll ever make is buying a good rifle and scope for your wife and/or kids.
As B- often says rightly, start at the start.
In this case, that would be buy them something that fits them, not you.
Rifle fit has a great influence on felt recoil.
They will need a shorter rifle. Make sure the scope is positioned for them, not you, to be comfortable. The investment will be paid back many times over.
And yes, the 308 lower power loads will kill things very dead, as will 243 and 223. Shot placement trumps power.
Totally agree. That's why I bought this.
The stock fits the young ones all the way in , and the wife one notch in. I put a very nice trigger in it and scope on it. This Kimber will not be a wife and kid gun. I just thought it would be nice if I buy something that they can handle recoil wise if they want to carry such a light rifle. The one complaint my daughter has of any gun is the weight. If I run up on a second stock fine, but I won't be cutting this one down.
The Chuck Hawks article from the link above states that both Federal and Remington mangaged recoil loadings claim a 50% recoil reduction.
Deer are not really that hard to kill. I've killed them with a 40 gr. v-max out of a tactical 20 all the way through a 45-70 and 400 gr bullet. Shoot them in the CNS or neck they go down. Break down both shoulders, they go down. Spine-shoot them, they go down. Heart or lungs, 100 yds or so. Gut shot, all bets are off. I use larger calibers as I'm always on the lookout for hoglets and it is very thick where I hunt. I want them DRT if at all possible.
Another thought. If you are worried about recoil. Get a led-sled and about 40 lbs of shot or weights.
Let your wife or kids practice off the bench shooting off the led sled. Make sure they wear ear muffs at least and perhaps foam ear plugs plus ear muffs. Let them get in some trigger time.
With the weights on the led sled, the recoil will be insignificant, and with the ear muffs/plugs, the noise should not be a factor either. This should help prevent them from developing a "flinch". To check, hand them an unloaded rifle (but don't let them know it's not loaded) and watch to see whether they are squeezing or jerking the trigger.
With ear muffs, recoil management and trigger time, when they do shoot at game, their blood will be up, they will be excited and the instinct borne of practices will pay off. They won't even notice the recoil of the one shot.
Good luck on whatever you decide.
Best,
GWB
PS: That Sako is chambered for the 308 Winchester, but I'm running 46.5 gr. of Varget, 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips for practice and 150 gr. Accubonds for real, Lapua Brass, Federal 210 M primers and 2.800 COAL for about 2,800 fps., which is not a reduced load, but is a killer.
Pullin' spark plugs ain't of ANY interest to me...though you are certainly welcome to the folly.
I cited 223 and 308 for simplistics reasons,which was stated plainly,due the fact you don't Reload. The support of both chamberings in Factory Form,is in non-lineal fashion and that'd be a good thing as such concessions go.
Take the Brood to the Store,let 'em Test Drive a Montucky and get back to me on them very obvious "findings".
More water for you to not drink.(grin)
'Walter,
Pass the 223,good boolits and hold ALL the Fluff.
You get your cake and eat it too.
Hint.
'bird,
Just why in the [bleep] folks are in sucha hurry to remove the Fun Quotient,do reliably astound me. I reckon I'll never savvy Spark Plug Pullin' Goat [bleep],when one can reduce costs,noise,recoil and performance,while banking extry rounds in the belly to boot. This schit cracks me the [bleep] up!
Fun schit gets shot and schit that gets shot builds proficiency and proficiency is how one reliably arranges "luck".
Hilarious Thread!
G',
If you gotta resort to tricking the Bride and the Brood,you are ONLY tricking yourself. Hint.
The Texas version of everything is [bleep] hilarious!
Doubly so,when you go to citing Shefire as anything but a Bat Schit Crazy Do Nothing Clueless Kchunt.
No, not yet, but this whole thread was designed to help me pick the right Montana for when I am reloading. My original question was to determine if any caliber Montana lent it's self to better accuracy via mag box length, throat length, twist rates, and other such parameters that reloaders are knowledgeable about.
It started as 243 VS 7-08 and delved into the 223 per Boxers recommendations, and now the possibility of the 308 which fits my needs very well but I would also like something with recoil low enough that the wife and kids won't completely shun it. There is really no need for magnums or long range in my neck of the woods anyway. Shots are likely to be in wooded areas and under 100 yards , with the exception of a rare clear cut or power line 200 yard shot.
You could always go to harbor freight and invest in an inexpensive caliper and then go to your favorite gun store and measure the different OAL's of various factory fodder. Traditional cup and core bullets are shorter than the mono-metals and plastic tipped bullets. I've had excellent luck with Sierras in the traditional cup and core. I think you will find that "kissing the lands" is going to be the least of your worries in regards to accuracy out of a factory chamber at 100 yards. If you don't even get better than two inch groups, that will kill deer at 100 yds. Best measure is where the first shot out of a cold barrel will impact. Chances are you'll not get more than one shot off on game.
You want to be sober while working reduced load. Air space can remove your head from shoulders. Trail fills the case. RHC just be aware!
Originally Posted by R_H_Clark
Originally Posted by geedubya
Rick
Don't believe that RHC is reloading yet.
Best,
GWB
No, not yet, but this whole thread was designed to help me pick the right Montana for when I am reloading. My original question was to determine if any caliber Montana lent it's self to better accuracy via mag box length, throat length, twist rates, and other such parameters that reloaders are knowledgeable about.
It started as 243 VS 7-08 and delved into the 223 per Boxers recommendations, and now the possibility of the 308 which fits my needs very well but I would also like something with recoil low enough that the wife and kids won't completely shun it. There is really no need for magnums or long range in my neck of the woods anyway. Shots are likely to be in wooded areas and under 100 yards , with the exception of a rare clear cut or power line 200 yard shot.
"Let your wife or kids practice off the bench shooting off the led sled. Make sure they wear ear muffs at least and perhaps foam ear plugs plus ear muffs. Let them get in some trigger time.
With the weights on the led sled, the recoil will be insignificant, and with the ear muffs/plugs, the noise should not be a factor either. This should help prevent them from developing a "flinch". To check, hand them an unloaded rifle (but don't let them know it's not loaded) and watch to see whether they are squeezing or jerking the trigger.
With ear muffs, recoil management and trigger time, when they do shoot at game, their blood will be up, they will be excited and the instinct borne of practices will pay off. They won't even notice the recoil of the one shot."
The Texas version of everything,is simply [bleep] hilarious. Bless your heart.
What happened to the 243 and 7-08? I could see the 223 appeal, but what is the allure of the 308 now?
Jason
Likely just a rabbit trail to be explored before getting back on track. I'm still heavy between the 243 and 223. Availability may win the race when I'm ready to run. I can't see the 243 not doing everything I want and the 223 might do it just as well with less recoil and powder if the rifle shoots the heavies well and I can easily do any mods needed for the heavies.
It started as 243 VS 7-08 and delved into the 223 per Boxers recommendations, and now the possibility of the 308 which fits my needs very well but I would also like something with recoil low enough that the wife and kids won't completely shun it. There is really no need for magnums or long range in my neck of the woods anyway. Shots are likely to be in wooded areas and under 100 yards , with the exception of a rare clear cut or power line 200 yard shot.
This just seems right for a .243 and tsx/ttsx...bet the 80 grn factory Barnes ammo would do about an inch or less at 100 yards. Or factory 95 grn Winchester ballistic tips. I have used both out to 200 yards and none run farther than 40 yards-most drop within 20 feet.
I think the way to start kids shooting is to start them at about 7 or 8 years of age with a single shot 10 gauge shotgun with three and a half inch slug load. That way, you can find out if they are really really serious about wanting to shoot, and the lack of sights makes them into good stalkers. The recoil and price of ammo will teach them not to waste ammo. If they don't wimp out, at about age 15 let them have a recoil pad. Mistake a lot of people make when training new shooters is to let them wear ear protection. This is the age when you need to toughen them up to loud noises.
Have killed alotta 400yd+ Venison with .378" boltfaces and have never seen one go that far.
'Course I'm in da bidness of breaking bone,as I don't shoot to be "nice". Meat gets shot in the ear,Booners get broked shoulders.
Noone has more 243 Love than I,but for applications cited,it's a Montucky 223 Show.
If I am pulling the trigger, a .223 if a fine choice. But I've seen them run several hundred yards with a broken shoulder from a .223. I have also seen them go down like lighting struck with a .223. I don't do head/neck shots.
If I have a kiddo pulling the trigger I prefer a little more margin for error, because a lot of times the error is there. An 80 grn ttsx from a .243 on southern whitetails under 200 yards with most shots about 100 yards is ideal in my book. Especially for youth/recoil sensitive shooters...
My experience with several kids has convinced me of the exact opposite conclusion. For a kiddo that's relatively new to shooting and hunting, I prefer a .223 in their hands.
I've seen a handful of kids with limited exposure, and ample time behind a trigger intimidated by a .243
Put a kid behind a .22lr and a .223 and they'll gladly shoot till there's no more ammunition. They learn good shooting habits (and safety of course) and have absolutely no fear in the rifles muzzle blast and recoil (which is almost non-existent). With the amount of time yanking triggers, it's no biggie for them to make clean ethical kills with a .223 loaded with an appropriate bullet.
My own kids, nephews, and friends kiddo's have over the years killed piles of deer, exotics, and feral hogs with the lowly .223 without an issue.
Another one of my nephews and a friends son are just now cutting their shooting/hunting teeth on a .223 Rem I set up specifically for youngsters. This weekend saw them popping 62gr. TSX and even .22lr out to 200 yards from sticks and hunting positions.
Their ear to ear grin is down right infectious. No doubt both will have no issue killing a deer or three this coming Fall.
I think the way to start kids shooting is to start them at about 7 or 8 years of age with a single shot 10 gauge shotgun with three and a half inch slug load. That way, you can find out if they are really really serious about wanting to shoot, and the lack of sights makes them into good stalkers. The recoil and price of ammo will teach them not to waste ammo. If they don't wimp out, at about age 15 let them have a recoil pad. Mistake a lot of people make when training new shooters is to let them wear ear protection. This is the age when you need to toughen them up to loud noises.
yeah, that's the ticket
knock the bejeezus out of 'em.
I'm sure they say, thank you sir, may I have another.
I carried my 9 year old on a youth dove hunt this year. Her gun was a very light weight single barrel 20 gauge. I actually didn't think she would be shooting since she had said she just wanted to go along and retrieve birds and sit with me in the field but I carried a gun for her anyway.
After several birds, she says, "Dad, I want to shoot." So I set her up and when the next bird came by she stood up from her chair and fired one off. The blast sat her back down and knocked her hat off. I expected that to be the end but she stood up and with a huge grin said, "Dad, that was awesome!" That little bugger shot a whole box of shells that day and she said that she had the best time she had ever had hunting. She wasn't bothered by the recoil at all, even though I considered that old single barrel a kicker.
I was taught the value of the first shot by a sheridan .20 pellet gun.
In the early 60's, Sheridan silver Streaks were usually worshipped from afar. Guys that had those in our neighborhood were ultimately cool. Daisy pumps here, if we were lucky.
I'm with you,in that this schit is VERY funny...especially when the Texans do their best.(grin)
Much to be said for settin' 'em up for success,via Good Riggin' slated to the task(s) and comfortably within their Fun Factor. I getta kick outta The Spark Plug Pulling Deception Ruse,seemingly in vogue with the Haybale & Crockett crowd. MUCH to be said for familiarity with a chambering/boolit,due Grintitude and the lotsa empty brass.
Let a kid go MPAJ with a Montucky 223/6x42 and let 'em steal the show at the 400yd+ line on clay birds,if only as an initial confidence boost.
Venison ain't got a [bleep] chance...by design.
'gant,
It do get nice,when they can load their own.(grin)
lubbock',
Error is minimized via proficiency and proficiency is a byproduct of trigger time and Fun connects all them dots. Hint.
The greatest connect percentages ain't realized,via Deception...they're realized by a genuine hankerin' to make empties. Nothing fuels that fire like minimal recoil,minimal blast,eerie Precision and nice BC's at nice speeds.
'Course it's easy for me to say,I got it all.
Hint.
FO,
Good boolits,in good places...reliably do great thangs.
Killing is the easiest part of any Hunt to control and why in the [bleep] these ignorant dumbfhukks go outta their way to [bleep] easy schit up,is beyond me?!?
Though I do dig the humor!
'Clark,
Making noise with a Scattergun,is an issue far separate from punchin' Tags.
Hint.
pak,
There's several exceedingly WELL used RWS Springers in the house and MPAJ POA/POI braggin' rights...are held in the highest esteem. One has LOP lopped to 11.5" or so. Easy to connect dots,with a platform that'll yield good Precision,via rather good trigger.
Let 'em dump/hold 600yd dope in a 22LR Anschutz and punching Tags is all things but "difficult".(grin)
Never will savvy why folks is in such a hurry,to pawn Schit Riggin' off on the Duffers?!?
My Sheridan was a 22,my Cousin's a 5mm and them forays never hurt results.(grin)
The greatest connect percentages ain't realized,via Deception...they're realized by a genuine hankerin' to make empties. Nothing fuels that fire like minimal recoil,minimal blast,eerie Precision and nice BC's at nice speeds.
have no idear why folks resist this notion so steadfastly. the rule is just as applicable to grownup males as it is to the "frail" women and kids
Making noise with a Scattergun,is an issue far separate from punchin' Tags.
Hint.
Absolutely. Just sharing a little. I am leaning toward the 223 for all the reasons you are saying. I know you favor the Amax but what are some other good choices supposing mine doesn't want to shoot them? I would guess the 62 Barnes but what else in the world of scarce components and ammo?
Stupid [bleep],is always gonna do stupid schit...which is of course a hilarious constant.
I've rolled miles of video footage with the sound off,so as to let folks guess the platform that dealt the terminal affects and that is usually purty funny on the average and often outright hilarious.(grin)
You cain't miss something with a catridge/boolit "big enough",to turn it into a hit. That reality [bleep] alotta Window Lickers up! I can only lead 'em to water,I cain't make 'em drink.
A sub 6lb 1000yd+ capable rifle,of very minimal recoil and blast...don't take long to warm up to.
Hint.(grin)
'Clark,
Folks are seemingly in a hurry to forget,that these ARE The Good Old Days. There's so many Venison Capable boolits out there,that you'd play hell finding one that weren't.
THE money maker,is always gonna be proficiency,which cain't be begged,borrowed or stolen. Set 'em up,feed the fire,let 'em get good with grins on their faces and start punching Tags.
No, not yet, but this whole thread was designed to help me pick the right Montana for when I am reloading. My original question was to determine if any caliber Montana lent it's self to better accuracy via mag box length, throat length, twist rates, and other such parameters that reloaders are knowledgeable about.
It started as 243 VS 7-08 and delved into the 223 per Boxers recommendations, and now the possibility of the 308 which fits my needs very well but I would also like something with recoil low enough that the wife and kids won't completely shun it. There is really no need for magnums or long range in my neck of the woods anyway. Shots are likely to be in wooded areas and under 100 yards , with the exception of a rare clear cut or power line 200 yard shot.
Clark - WITF makes you think the Montana will fit the wife and kids or they will want to shoot it? Just buy WTF you want. It's PDS.
There is no accounting for taste.
Experience is a great thing as long as one survives it.
Generally, there ain't a lot that separates the two however, Barely making it is a whole lot more satisfying than barely not making it.
No, not yet, but this whole thread was designed to help me pick the right Montana for when I am reloading. My original question was to determine if any caliber Montana lent it's self to better accuracy via mag box length, throat length, twist rates, and other such parameters that reloaders are knowledgeable about.
It started as 243 VS 7-08 and delved into the 223 per Boxers recommendations, and now the possibility of the 308 which fits my needs very well but I would also like something with recoil low enough that the wife and kids won't completely shun it. There is really no need for magnums or long range in my neck of the woods anyway. Shots are likely to be in wooded areas and under 100 yards , with the exception of a rare clear cut or power line 200 yard shot.
Clark - WITF makes you think the Montana will fit the wife and kids or they will want to shoot it? Just buy WTF you want. It's PDS.
The same thing could be said about any topic started here. Just buy WTF you want could be the standard answer, and we wouldn't even have to waste any time on here, so my question to you is, why are you?
I'm just talking and weighing ideas with folks who want to talk. It's really no big deal and I will buy WTF I want in the end anyway.
50,000,000 unemployed comedians in the world and there ain't no shortage of 'em appearing in this thread. *grin*
Clark- There be some wise counsel in these 17 pages, if one can separate the meat from the 90 psi paunches. I look forward to the report of your own findings in due course....
I am leaning toward the 223 for all the reasons you are saying. I know you favor the Amax but what are some other good choices supposing mine doesn't want to shoot them? I would guess the 62 Barnes but what else in the world of scarce components and ammo?
Although a 22 caliber is almost never my first choice,.........
left to right, 45 gr. TSX, 53 Gr. TSX, 55 gr. Sierra Spitzer, 60 gr. Nosler Partition,
If your rifle has an 8 twist, then the 64 gr. Nosler bonded core, 68 Gr. Hornady HPBT, 69 Gr. Sierra HPBT, 70 Gr. TSX and 82 Gr. Berger.
Many others out there, and I'm sure others can/will chime in with their favorite 22 caliber projectiles. Should you have the capabilities a CNS shot would pretty much guarantee a dead animal, but used appropriately, these should work. Might have to track, but what the hey, ya pays yo' money and ya takes yo' chances.
I can recall no less than 3 little texas deer that took a .223 in the shoulder and it took 3-4 more hours of tracking for them to be recovered-last one was shot at dark, and we tracked him 3-400 yards in the dark-got close enough to hear him breathing but he was in stuff too thick for the flashlight to penetrate so we hunkered down for 1.5 hours before he gave up the ghost. Was lucky that time as the 8yo boy I was guiding that evening didn't get spooked or scared one bit in that thick creek bottom in the dark. That's been my experience with the .223 tsx. As I said, I have also seen my share go down fast with the .223 as well.
I have not had this issue with a well placed .243 bullet.
Now, if I was getting a gun specifically for the kiddos to shoot, 22lr/.223 would be just right for learning to shoot/having fun with. On deer size game I'd prefer a .243 the gun carried to the stand. And I bet when they are in the stand and squeeze one off at a live target they will not mention the felt recoil/muzzle blast.
Having said that, if All the kid has/brings is a .223 I certainly would not refuse them. I'd just stress hard proper shot placement, be prepared to make a f/u shot and bring extra flashlights in case there is a need for extended tracking.
With the 1-9 you can shoot the 62 TSX! It seems to shoot thru deer for me out of a 16 inch 1-7 black gun. Biggest deer I ever shot was with a 62 TSX over tac it ran 25 yards after a shoulder shot at 40 yds.
There are no flies on either the .243 or the 7-08 as far as the cartridges go. That said, if the .223 is legal to hunt deer with in Alabama, I can see no reason to get anything other than the .223 given your parameters (short-ish range, wife and kids to use it, you don't reload, etc.).
The recoil on the .223 is nonexistent. The factory ammunition selections are incredibly broad running from cheap plinking ammunition for trigger time for the wife/kids/you all the way to super premium stuff that will take any game in Alabama you choose to hunt. When you eventually get into reloading, it's an efficient cartridge that is easy to load for and the components are readily available, inexpensive, and amazingly broad in scope.
Again, there is nothing wrong with either the .243 or the 7-08, but given that neither matches the breadth and depth to which the .223 answers the questions you would be asking of that rifle, why do anything other than the .223?
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
Somehow, I suspect that's already happened several times over before I ever even joined the conversation. Those two (and a bunch of others) work and work well. For what the OP opined, however, I can't see how the .223 doesn't fit the profile better and more squarely than the rest.
His dollars, his choice, but in the same situation my call on the matter would be simple.
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
I'd be more than eager to run the 55 TTSX if I were allowed to take the .223 after deer where I live...
There's a handful of bullets that will kill deer reliably.
Over the years we've killed game with 64gr. Power Points, 60gr. Partitions, 53gr./55gr./62gr. TSX, 55gr. TBBC, and even the 45gr. Nosler Solid base in a lowly .22 Hornet.
I've never taken game with them, however, I've heard good reports on the 75gr. A-Max. If your rifle will stabilize the bullet, from all accounts it's an excellent choice.
There's also the 69gr. Scenar to consider.
Personally, if not able to utilize the A-Max bullet, my pick would be the 62gr. T/TSX
Tape the muzzle and who the [bleep] would ever know?!?(grin)
G,
The best way to not waste meat,is to make schit dead and lotsa folks is in a hurry to [bleep] that up.
Meat gets shot in the ear,Booners get shoulders broke.
Pop lungs and schit's gonna RUN.
Hint.
'yp,
CorBon typically puts a little sauce on their wares to boot.
Gonna try me an X boolit some day,as I hear good thangs.
Hey what ever happened to all the 25cal talk?!? One of them Bob's sounds really good.
Laffin'!
FO,
I've shot all that you mention into Venison,along with a lot more that ain't been cited...from Hornet to CHeetah.
Tough to whoop a Montucky 223,as Utility goes. It's a fabulous blend of available COAL,nice throating,S/S construction and a right proper stock,all wrapped in a handy/dandy and well balanced parcel.
Hell,I might even flog on one a bit today,myself.(grin)
The best way to not waste meat,is to make schit dead and lotsa folks is in a hurry to [bleep] that up.
Meat gets shot in the ear,Booners get shoulders broke.
Pop lungs and schit's gonna RUN.
Hint.
Ya know B,
From time to time I get PM�s from folks who comment on how much fun you and I have on these forums. My comment to them is I consider myself fortunate to have such a friend in a far north clime as the Milford. I also tell them if it were not for you I�d prolly not get to share the joys of hunting in Texas near as much as as I do. You often say you can't figure out whether I'm bragging or complaining. So, no brag, just fact, I�m a kill artist. I�m good at it. In fact I�m so good that the buzzards at the �Petting Zoo� ,as I refrer to my happy hunting grounds, have come to recognize my truck.
And ATV
When they see me coming they tell all their friends and relatives, Gdub�s here,
put on the feed bag �cause we�ll be eatin� high on the hog in just a little while
And a minor complaint.
Just between the two of us, since no one else is watchin�I might just take you to task. After all, what are friends for if they can�t admonish each other from time to time.
In the last year since I�ve been posting here regularly, I�ve probably posted pix of near 100 different critters, that when I drew, I drew blood.
Other than a few dead fish, a couple of basket horned bucks and a couple of bears the only thing I�ve seen evidence of all the stuff you kill is a lot of time and band width.
Luv to see pix and mounts of all the Turkey, grouse, ptarmigan, deer, mule deer, bear, moose, sheep, goats, elk beaver, fox, marten, wolf, lion, wolverine, badger and anything else that inhabit such places as Kansas and Alaska.
I can't bring myself to sell my Kimber short bob yet I do find myself carrying the 308 Montana more often, and may wind up with a Montana in 223 as well. The stainless Ruger American compact has a 1-8 twist, which is a temptation. But who knows for $550 bucks?
Gee, some fine photos of some nice game. Very enjoyable... You really put the hurt on those hogs.. We went to Tx. this spring and knocked off a couple young ones.. When we were cutting up the larger of the two, she was 130# dressed, I found a cup and core bullet in the shoulder!! It wasn't festered.. It had just broken the bone.. Happened to see the copper shining when I was cutting it up.. Looked like about a .243 or 25 cal.. Keep the photos coming...
Geedub', you sure do show the kills to back up what you say. I'm a bit envious that you get so much trigger time on live animals. Up north we have to shoot paper in the offseason and the offseasons are long. The Texas version of everything seems to be the stuff of hunters dreams. Anyway love all the kill pics and the many rifle pics are always easy on the eyes and good for the soul.
[bleep] hilarious,that you rate being a totally clueless dumbfhukk as anything it ain't. Kudos for proffering enough Imagination and Pretend,to rate driving a Golf Cart in someone else's field as being the pinnacle of "Adventure" and "satisfaction".
Cheer up,I've never had a PM either.
The Texas version of everything,is [bleep] hilarious and here's to your inherent ineptitude,keeping you as the World's Slowest "Learner". Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
'yp,
Short Bob/Long Bob...don't matter,they's all schit and fraught with heavy concession(s). Funny part is,even you know it. Laffin'!
You'd best give the Montucky 223 lamentation another 20yrs of "hard charging" practice,so you'll be able to at least get it in 1st [bleep] gear.
Laffin'!
'Hunter,
Not all boolits is equal?!?
Wow...who knew?
Laffin'!
Iggle,
In Blued/Walnut,for the win. Muzzlebrake added,for taking it to another level...and the envy of all Window Lickers.
Laffin'!
Dooshmike,
Play your cards right and mebbe G' will mail you a piece of barbed-wire...for posterity. Send her a PM. Laffin'!
You Do Nothing Day Dreaming Kchunts are a [bleep] riot!
Here's to the oblivious hilarity of your "thinking",that you can "think". Funny schit!
The only barometer of evaluation you could provide in the first hand...is what it's like to keep a couch tethered firmly in place,with the perpetual placement of your kchunt.
Congratulations?!?
Laffin'!
Looking forward to today's excuses.
(Addendum: for The Window Licker)
Dooshmike,
The only thing that'd be funnier than the annual hour meter reading of your couch,would be a pic of "all" the primers you "shoot" in the same year. Laffin'!
Sounds like you've really got some upper echelon wares,are steeped in same and really wring some stuff out. My bad.
I do get a kick out of Boxer thinking eveybody is recoil shy and needs a .223 or .243 to shoot accurately. I started off at age 13 with a .30-06 and it never hampered my shooting. Heck my wife can wring all the accuracy out of my .30-06 that it can give. My stepson killed his first buck at age 15 with an A bolt in .338 Win. mag. and my son has been killing deer with his .270 since he was 13. Recoil never prevented me from making a kill whether it was 10 yards or 300.
Reliable shot placement comes from regular practice.
Why is there so much discussion endlessly about rounds, and so little about placement and practice?
It is always interesting to me how women and children drop stacks of deer and feral pigs DRT with 243's, and yet dad's and husbands need a Zombie stomper, which too often results in the need to track it.
Just an observation.
and fwiw - I've not shot deer with a 223, so won't opine one way or the other, but I have shot more than a few with 243/6mm's and they are more than enough with good placement. More power will not overcome poor placement.
Reliable shot placement comes from regular practice.
Why is there so much discussion endlessly about rounds, and so little about placement and practice?
It is always interesting to me how women and children drop stacks of deer and feral pigs DRT with 243's, and yet dad's and husbands need a Zombie stomper, which too often results in the need to track it.
Just an observation.
and fwiw - I've not shot deer with a 223, so won't opine one way or the other, but I have shot more than a few with 243/6mm's and they are more than enough with good placement. More power will not overcome poor placement.
I've never found the .270, .308, or .30-06 to be difficult to shoot. I can't understand how so many people fail to master a little recoil? We aren't talking .375 H&H's here. But that is another that I like to shoot. Too many people on here make way too much out of recoil. Why do you link "more power" to "poor placement" anyway? I've got a 7 mag that will shoot a hole in a dime at 100 yards. Poor placement is the least of my concerns with that rifle.
It is an intellesting constant,that them who "do" the least...Whine the most. Stupid [bleep],will always do stupid schit and it only gets funnier when they try to "justify" it.(grin)
I swear to [bleep] god,that these incredibly inept boobs are in a Stupid Contest,to see who can come up with THE dumbest schit. Dooshmike in ALL fairness,is doing rather "well". Laffin'!
The only people who "think" Critters is hard to kill,is them who ain't killed very many Critters and that is yet another intellesting Dichotomy. So I'm VERY much enjoying The Deception Approach and Dooshmike's Rambo Approach,to things that is welllllll beyond simple to reliably arrange.
'Course it's easy for me to say,if only because I got it all.(grin)
Dooshmike,
Knock 'er outta da' park and elaborate on the 7mm Dime Rifle. You know...fodder of preference,glass,mounts,rifle Make/Model,the usually hilarious schit you pull out of your Do Nothing azz. Laffin'! Always was gonna try me a 7mm of some sort and mebbe your keen first hand "experience" and it's "results",will nudge me over the edge. Re-laffin'!
You poor poor AMAZINGLY stupid [bleep].
Wow.
(Yet another Addendum: for The Window Licker)
Dooshmike,
I enjoy you Do Nothing Dumbfhukks Imaginations,almost as much as you do and your Pretend is a [bleep] riot! Now you are a "we",which is also fascinating. I reckon when you "do" as "much" as you,that you need ALL the [bleep] help you can ge?!!? Bless your heart.
I'll feign my "surprise" that 7mm Dime Rifle "particulars" ain't gonna transpire,if only because even someone as [bleep] STUPID as you,knows how [bleep] funny that woulda been. Laffin'!
Perhaps you'll feel a bit more "comfy" in the Groundhog '06's "particulars"?!? Laffin'! Mebbe "tell" me about .375's too,as all of this schit is "new" to me. Re-laffin'!
It remains hilarious,that you are oblivious to your gross ineptitude and rampant Dumbfhukktitude,despite your best efforts not to be. Now Sweetheart...THAT is how humor is defined. Congratulations?!?
The only thing you shoot is your mouth and Imagination,in no [bleep] particular order. That you cain't begin to fathom the magnitude of how far you are in over your pointy head,really is [bleep] amazing!
Here's to your Imagination and to just how BADLY you need it.
So we all have to use the "minimum" gun because that's all it takes to kill an animal? I've shot deer with the 45-70 and .450 Marlin. Why? Because I wanted to. I'm not recoil shy (like Boxer) and I like a gun that let me know it went off. Personally the Hornet, .223, and the .22-250 got sold because I didn't really enjoy shooting them anymore. I don't enjoy shooting the .458 Win mag either. Fun for me is somewhere in the middle and yes I can put a .30-06 bullet in a groundhogs head just as cleanly as I could with the .223. The light kickers are for those who don't get out and shoot. Those who do can work their way up to anything.
Much to your chagrin,many do fill freezers with Rimfires,where they are legal...if only because they reliably do nice thangs. Hell,I growed up gunning Beef in the backyard with same and never not seen it be impressive,as a minimum. Waterborne Caribou Carnage ala Rimfire,is a passionate Sport for many. Hint.
Feel free to wax eloquent upon "power" and "energy",because all of this stuff is "new" to me and I don't get to shoot nearly as "much" as you gals do.
Laffin'!
It's a riot,when you Stupid [bleep] go to outdumbfhukking each other,by obliviously doing your "best".
Wow +P+!
'6,
It got real "unfair",real fast...by 'em bolting together their Imaginations and parlaying their Pretend. Laffin'!
Now the dumbfhukkers are gonna tease me about 22LR's and say mean things about my Savage.
I'd say sumptin' about gunning schit at 600yds with same...but I ain't quite ready top hear the high note.
Laffin'!
(Addendum" for yet another Window Licker)
Wyo',
So now a rifle is an "unfair" "advantage" for "power" and "energy"?!?
You poor poor stupid [bleep].
PLEASE do "tell" me allllllllllllll about "power" and "energy",as you undoubtedly are very "lucky" to have opportunity with some really "cool" chamberings,totally unknowed by me. Muse boolits too,I dare ya'.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose. However, I'm mighty glad of that as I'm on the search for yet another Montana .223 Rem and less less folks wanting one makes it easier to procure another.
Why do you link "more power" to "poor placement" anyway? I've got a 7 mag that will shoot a hole in a dime at 100 yards. Poor placement is the least of my concerns with that rifle.
They are not necessarily linked.
Anyone can run whatever they want, I just notice a pattern that more rounds are sent downrange in practice with rifles with less recoil than those that punish on both ends.
Small groups are good, but need to be on the mark.
One makes the other easier, but they don't always go together without regular practice.
And don't worry, I've run a few larger than 243.
I happened to have a 100 yards and a dime handy to fill in the blank - with a 308 to keep everyone happy.
I've grown to love the .223/.223AI's more as volume of shooting increases. Recoil has never really bothered my frail little frame but after 100 rounds on a .223 vs 100 rounds on a #-06 or .#08 the wear is evident. Where I really appreciate the .223/.223AI's is when filling it's modest appetite for powder...which lends itself extremely well to more range time.
If there was sumptin' better...I'd simply have it.(grin)
'bird,
I may shoot more than (1) diameter myself and if one were to bolt ALL The Paper Hat Brigade's spent primers together,it wouldn't begin to make a scratch in how much I've shot.(grin)
Got epoxy drying on a Tactical lever Gun on the bench,another boltgun is drying a dabbed lug and I've a rifle hangin' in a tree,that just got fresh paint. Been a fair to middlin' Reloading Day and I need to shoot come-ups on a few here in a bit.
Didja' note that both Dooshmike and Wyo' was more than a leetle quiet with their Pretend Rifle "particulars". Funny schit!
'IC,
I'm the only guy I know,that shot a 378Weatherby to death. Only had (5) 375H&H's and (3) 375H&H AI's. If only for starters.
Never seen nobody as good with a rifel as me...but I can only lead folks to water,though I do very much enjoy when they don't drink.(grin)
Actually have (3) rifles hangin' from a tree dryin' and that just might be the record.(grin)
Wind came up enough,to make slappin' 400yd clay birds a trifle sporty with my Savage 22LR,so will tote a video camera and see what transpires...as The Do Nothing Dumbfhukkers practice their Pretend and coax their Imaginations.
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I do find myself carrying the 308 Montana more often, and may wind up with a Montana in 223 as well. The stainless Ruger American compact has a 1-8 twist, which is a temptation. But who knows for $550 bucks? ![[Linked Image]](http://s38.photobucket.com/user/glenn1221/media/IMG_0022_zpsf2050ea0.jpg.html)
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