Well first we need to figure out which of your statements is true there, its either second hand or not. And just where was this supposed bull supposedly hit? I guess your expereince and mine are totally backwards, on account of some of the nastiest blood trails and the like I have been on were after the belted mag that some intrepid nimrod used didn't work quite like the hype says its supposed to.
No the 243 probably isn't the ideal elk cartridge, but it work anddoesn't need premium bullets, just as none of the non magnum cartridges don't need them. ...My pick of the litter would be the 7-08, ...
Ranch13 �
�Secondhand� was probably a poor choice of words. What I meant was I did not do the shooting and in several cases only talked to the shooter but did not see the elk.
Don�t know exactly where the bull I mentioned was hit, but it appeared to be on the right side, perhaps along the ribs or perhaps the rear quarter. Rightly or wrongly we assumed a quartering away shot. Placement may have left something to be desired or if it was indeed a quartering away shot placement may have been good but penetration poor. Another bull was shot with a .243 in the left front leg. Don�t know if the bullet made it though the leg bone to the chest cavity, as it did with the last elk I shot, but the two hunters responsible for shooting it gave up finding it after two days of trying. My buddy and I saw lots of fresh blood in the snow, all along a 1 mile ridgeline over a 3 day period, never did find the elk (although we were not hunting for it, either). Another time a young hunter with a .243 took a broadside shot at an elk that was in a tightly packed herd, no more than 100 yards away. The herd ran at the sound of the shot, including the one that was hit. It was not recovered. I could go on...
I would disagree about the .243 needing premium bullets. On elk I consider them essential as the .243 shoots light bullets and typically pushes them to 3100-3200fps. At that velocity a standard cup and core bullet can easily act like a varmint bullet � and they often do, creating horrible but shallow wounds. If they penetrate to the lungs they can cause spectacular results, but they don�t always penetrate. One thing about my 7mm Mag and 160g bullets, penetration has never been a problem.
Placement is obviously a key component in taking elk cleanly. But even with proper placement, I find the .243 lacking as an elk cartridge, kind of like using a tack hammer for framing work. IMHO, a .243 is best used for elk when in the hands of a competent and experienced rifleman who will choose the shots carefully, not the hands of a novice.
At least we agree that the 7mm-08 is a better choice.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
... Like I've said before the 243 will work and work well, but there's cartridges that can be used that folks (who just don't know any better) won't bad mouth so darn much and cause doubt in a young shooters mind.
Ranch13 �
No one has said an elk can�t be taken with a .243, only that there are better choices. Much better, IMHO.
Yes, it can work well and it can fail spectacularly, too. It is certainly not the cartridge I would want in my hands for a quartering away shot.
Frankly, if I cause doubt in a young shooter�s mind and the shooter chooses a .260 or 7mm-08 with 140g bullets for elk as a result, I will consider that I have done them a good service.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
Coyote I sort of remember reading somewhere you started your elk hunting career in the 1980's. By the time you started I had personally killed a dozen elk with the 243, my folks had both been using the cartridge since 1956. No problems killing elk in or out of the timber, quartering away, long or short range. On another thread where you was blathering on about another cartridge you have no experience with you mentioned the anticipated use of the 30-30. Next time you dive into ballistics tables look carefully you may be surprised to learn the 243 with a 100 gr bullet carriess more fpe at 300 yds than the 30-30 does at 100. Premium bullets are fine if they give a person confidence, but I've seen more than 100 elk taken, and very few of them with premiums. I also have come to notice that there is very little difference in reaction by the hit animal, doesn't matter whether it was a 243 or a 375 HH. I was totally and completely dissapointed in the 375, 219 yds quartering away 270 gr bullett went thru the lungs and lodged in the leg of the off side. Had that elk not of been in the clear we might not of found it as it travled about 100 yds from the hit, and there was not 1 drop of blood on the outside of it. I've seen elk with blood spooshing out the rib cage after being hit by the beloved belted mags cover over a mile, and not be found. It's all about bullet placement and preformance, and a bit of luck with a calm animal. Any of the 308 family cartridges are good choices for Wilderness's daughters, provided the gun fits them, the barrel isn't to short so that muzzle blast affects them, and they get sufficient trigger time to be good shots.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
Try shooting a heavier bullet slower with the 243 bullets expand very rapidly but at slower velocities they penetrate deeper and don't over expand. I don't think you should use that small of a caliber on elk. I would say the smallest 25/06 or a 270. I use a 30 cal in either 308 or 300 win mag. 165 grain bullets work nice.
The source of the original question was whether a 260 would be a good starter Elk gun for the girls for whom recoil is a significant issue. Consider the following..............
243--100 gr/3000 fps/45 gr powder/8 lb rifle = 11 ft lb recoil 260--140 gr/2500 fps/35 gr powder/8 lb rifle = 10 ft lb recoil
Without doubt, a 243 (can) make an effective Elk gun. There are however, some risks involved. I know for dang sure which of the above loads I would prefer to bang an Elk with.
I tried to stay out of this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />My opinion only,Is a .243 is a very poor choice for Elk..Now before anyone jumps down my throat..Yes,I have seen it used on Elk several times with my own eyes..Not stories...It will kill Elk and so will the 22-250 but there are choices and the 243 for Elk is a poor one.
I have seen a huge difference in immediate effects on Elk from the .270 and .300 Win Mag.My early years was totally .270 for all my hunting..The .270 works with a good bullet but not as good as a .300 Win Mag.
A very good friend in McCall Idaho,uses a 30-30 every year for Elk and gets his share within the distance of the 30-30.The key is a 243 with a good bullet in the hands of an "experienced hunter" is quite different than a 243 in the hands of a first timer or newbie to Elk hunting.The 25-06 is very effective in the hands of my old time neighbor whom all but lives with the Elk year around and knows them very well.
Personally,with my kids including my daughters,I let them shoot all my rifles and let them choose the one they liked the best and recoil wasn't the choosing factor for the girls in the ones they chose.Fit..Just like there clothes..Has to fit right. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I have absolutely no experience with .243's on elk, but I do have a lot with .243's / 6mm's on whitetails. In my experience a 7mm-08 / 7X57 makes a difference on deer over the .243 / 6mm. It's got to make a bigger difference on elk. I'm sure a .243 will kill any elk on Earth, but I'd never use one based on what I've seen with deer.
Besides locals get to hunt more and know the land better! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Easy now Ranch, I'm just funnin' ya! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Coyote I sort of remember reading somewhere you started your elk hunting career in the 1980's. By the time you started I had personally killed a dozen elk with the 243, my folks had both been using the cartridge since 1956. No problems killing elk in or out of the timber, quartering away, long or short range.
No problems, eh? Then I guess your experience is rather unique. Many people have found that even with good placement a .243 failed to perform on elk as desired.
One thing about people, they can learn from the experience of others. But you�re suggesting 20+ years of hunting elk and talking to other hunters, guides, DOW personnel and the meat processors, let alone all the reading I have done during that period, isn�t enough to learn a thing or two? Right. Even you have stated that a 7mm-08 is a better choice for elk, but why would that be if there is �No problems killing elk� with a .243?
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On another thread where you was blathering on about another cartridge you have no experience with you mentioned the anticipated use of the 30-30. Next time you dive into ballistics tables look carefully you may be surprised to learn the 243 with a 100 gr bullet carriess more fpe at 300 yds than the 30-30 does at 100.
�Blathering�? Ad hominem attacks will not advance either your argument or your credibility.
It�s quite true that I have no personal experience shooting big game with a .30-30. (Or a lot of other cartridges for that matter, including my .257 Roberts, .308 Win and .300 Win Mag.) But every elk I�ve seen shot with a .30-30 was dead very quickly, something I cannot say for all of them I have seen shot with a .243.
Energy alone is not a good predictor of terminal performance. Let�s take the WW .243Win 95g Ballistic Silvertip load because it has the most retained energy at 300 yards of any factory load I�ve looked at. Muzzle velocity is claimed at 3100fps. At 100 yards, the retained energy is 1719fpe and at 300 yards it is 1225fpe. If energy alone is a good predictor of terminal results, here are a few equivalent loads:
Now I don�t know about you, but I wouldn�t hunt elk with a .17 even if those velocities were obtainable. Nor would I hunt elk with anything in .224�.
Unfortunately, energy alone is NOT a good predictor of terminal effects. Placement, of course, is critical � but bullet diameter, initial bullet weight and bullet construction play important roles. Many intelligent people feel that momentum is a better predictor of penetration than energy. Using the same Winchester .243 load as above and the Winchester .30-30 170g SilverTip load (2200fps at the muzzle), relative momentum can be compared by multiplying bullet weight by velocity and dividing by 1000 (to make the result more readable). Rounding to the nearest tenth:
As you can see, using relative momentum as a yardstick, the .30-30 delivers at 300 yards what the .243 Win delivers at 100. Not that this fact makes the .30-30 a good 300 yard elk cartridge anymore than does the fact that my 170g handloads deliver as much energy at 340 yards as my .44 Mag revolver does with Speer 240g JSP�s at 50 yards or Speer 300g UCSP�s at 30 yards.
You claim �the 243 with a 100 gr bullet carriess more fpe at 300 yds than the 30-30 does at 100�. Not in factory ammo it doesn�t. Here is the data for the Big Three:
.243 Win, 300 yard energy 1139fpe = Federal 100g Partition, 2960fps MV 1120fpe = Remington 100g Core-Lokt Ultra, 2960fps MV 1089fpe = Remington 100g Pointed Soft Point, 2960fps MV 1089fpe = Winchester 100g Power Point, 2960fps MV
.30-30, 100 yard energy 1392fpe = Winchester 170g SilverTip, 2200fps MV 1356fpe = Winchester 150g Power Point, 2390fps MV 1355fpe = Remington 170g Core-Lokt, 2200fps MV 1354fpe = Federal 170g Partition, 22�fps MV
Or try my .30-30 handload, a 170g Speer @ 2333fps MV: 1629fpe = 100 yards 1274fpe = 200 yards 990fpe = 300 yards
Perhaps it�s you that needs to dive into the ballistic tables and �look carefully�.
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Premium bullets are fine if they give a person confidence, but I've seen more than 100 elk taken, and very few of them with premiums. I also have come to notice that there is very little difference in reaction by the hit animal, doesn't matter whether it was a 243 or a 375 HH. I was totally and completely dissapointed in the 375, 219 yds quartering away 270 gr bullett went thru the lungs and lodged in the leg of the off side. Had that elk not of been in the clear we might not of found it as it travled about 100 yds from the hit, and there was not 1 drop of blood on the outside of it.
Premium bullets do more than give a person confidence � depending on the bullet they actually perform better under a wider range of conditions than do standard bullets. While its true that most any bullet will work most of the time, my concern is with the small remainder when Murphy steps in.
I�m going to suggest you have no idea how that elk would have reacted to being hit with a .243 and will further suggest it might well have traveled considerably further than 100 yards � and quite possibly never have been recovered. All anyone knows is that in that particular case the .375 did the job.
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I've seen elk with blood spooshing out the rib cage after being hit by the beloved belted mags cover over a mile, and not be found. It's all about bullet placement and preformance, and a bit of luck with a calm animal. Any of the 308 family cartridges are good choices for Wilderness's daughters, provided the gun fits them, the barrel isn't to short so that muzzle blast affects them, and they get sufficient trigger time to be good shots.
�Beloved belted mags�? For myself, I don�t care if a cartridge has a belt or not, but I do have distinct preferences when it comes to elk cartridges. As a general minimum, I like premium bullets with a Sectional Density of about .280, a bullet weight of 140-150g, with a velocity of about 2800fps. That puts the various 6.5mm cartridges at the bottom of the list.
If I was going to hunt elk with a .243 it would be loaded with the very best bullets I could get � Scirocco II, Partition or TSX � and I would limit my shots to 200 yards and broadside with a top of the heart aim. With a .30-30 I would use 170g bullets and feel much more comfortable taking more difficult shots but would still limit my shots to 200 yards or less. If putting meat on the table was my primary goal, I would leave both guns home and take my �beloved� 7mm Rem or .300 Win belted magnums.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
Well, Whatever she decides to use hopefully she'll be able to practice well with it out to 200 yards and hit consistently the size of a one pound coffee can shooting in a field position. I don't think the .243 is good elk medicine tho for a subsistence hunter far smaller bullets have been used...usually at archery distances. The .260 is a good choice if you have the rifle already and shes enjoys shooting it. 140 grain bullets and a shot sistance of 200 yards should fill the freezer and put you to work on the field drssing, boning-butchering. I like the 6,5x55 Swede for mid range elk killing... or the .300 Savage..Shot placement is always the key.jim
Coyote not suggesting anything, flat out saying that my nearly 50 years of first hand doing it experience trumps the snot out of your 20 years of second hand regurgitated bull spit. 2339 with 170's in a 30-30? common boy, that's where things start getting dicey in the 30-30 ai. I know I've got several years first hand with that as well. Bottom line any of the 308 family or similar cartridges from 24 cal and up will do a fine job on elk. (and I do know a couple of fellers in Mt, that swear by the 22's )
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
personally ID sellect the 358 win, simply because at equal pressure levels theres a very slight advantage to useing the larger bullet diameters expansion ratio, while its true the 338 dia. bullets have at least in theory a superior ballistic shape theres no practical advantage under field conditions untill at least 300 yards, and most ELK will be shot under that range where the heavy bullets of either cartridge useing bullets in the 225-250 grain range will work just fine
but ILL also point out that the standard 308 loaded with hornady 180-190 grain bullets has proven to be fully able to kill elk effectively from evidence in our ELK camp, and from several guys I handload for <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> while the BLRs in 358 win are popular the 308 BLRS work almost as well
Wasn't this thread about whether a 260 would be a nice mild starter Elk rifle for WH's two girls???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
JimF
Thank you Jim....but, I fully understand that when a posting is made with the question of Elk and "minimum" loads....debate will explode......
I have no intention of putting a .243 in the hands of my little girl for an elk hunt. Goodness, I really don't want her to make a fine shot, only to find that we have to track an animal across two ranges.
For the .308 family, I think the .260 is minimum for Elk. I prefer the 7mm-08.....but the real question revolves around a load that will be comfortable for my girl and allow her the confidence to kill her bull.
Honestly, I have the guy down at the gun shop looking to order a 7mm-08 in a Stevens 200. This should be a good starter for a new hunter. Also, I think the 120's at the range will be dandy for her to get use to the gun without 'pounding' her into submission and creating fear of the recoil.
I really like the idea of the .260, as my pop was a huge 264WinMag fan and I know the exceptional performance of that caliber....sectional density, etc. But, let's cut this one to the chase...this gun is not for me...(although I would like it to be), but it is for a 17 year old, 120 lb....coming senior in high school...daughter.
Another question I would pose that is outside of the discussion of of the .308 family is.....would the 25'06 be a good solution to compete with the .260 and the 7mm-08? For that matter, would the 25WSSM be a contender?
Life is Good....
One trip a week to the range and a family that loves to shoot and hunt.
Wilderness the 25-06 had a good rep on elk for a long time, but for your daughter it might not be just the ticket, on account of it gets along better with 24-26 inch barrels, coupled with the long action the rifle might be awkward for her to handle. No experience with the 25 wssm , but looking at the ballistics tables, it should do well on elk. Ps you get a rifle your daughter likes, and fits her well,give her plenty of good coaching and develope good shooting skills , the only thing you'll have to worry about when she cuts loose on an elk is how to get the thing out, even if it is a 243 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by Ranch13; 05/24/06.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
Coyote not suggesting anything, flat out saying that my nearly 50 years of first hand doing it experience trumps the snot out of your 20 years of second hand regurgitated bull spit.
Ranch13 �
Feel free to make it personal if you wish, but as I said before it doesn�t advance your argument or your credibility. Yes, your 50 years is longer than the 20+ I have hunted elk, but it doesn�t invalidate the things I�ve seen or learned through either first- or second-hand experience. Did you not learn anything in your first 20+ years?
The combined experience of the hunting public far outweighs your experience, just as yours outweighs mine. If the consensus was a .243 is a good elk cartridge you could expect many people to use them � but the fact is they are the exception rather than the rule.
My contention is the .243 is marginal for elk. Yes, it will work with well-placed shots, no, it is not the best choice when things go somewhat awry. Neither is the .30-30 for that matter. Here is what some others have to say about the two cartridges:
.243 Winchester Nosler 5th: With the proper bullet it will dispatch everything form crows to deer sized game�, Richard Beebe, President of Redding, Inc. Speer #12: �Although it has adequate power for game animals up to and including deer and antelope, it is definitely under-powered for elk, moose and caribou.� Hornady 5th: �deer-sized game� Barnes #3: The 85g and heavier X-type bullets are shown as suitable for elk. Accurate #1: �varmint and deer-sized game� Cartridges of the World #9: �up to and including deer and antelope�
Seems like Barnes it the only one that thinks the .243 Win is suitable for elk.
.30-30 Winchester Nosler 5th: �the little 30 continues to do what it was designed for, taking deer and other game at medium range�, Sam Falada, author. Speer #12: �The 170 grain Hot-Cor is the best choice for game up to medium-size deer, which is the effective limit of the cartridge.� Hornady 5th: �For the deer hunter who hunt areas where 100-150 yard shots are the longest� Barnes #3: The 150g XFN is shown as suitable for elk, with velocities up to 2282fps using a 20� barrel. Accurate #1: �The yardstick by which all other deer cartridges are measured� Cartridges of the World #9: �the standard American deer cartridge� and �the 170g Partition and the Barnes 150g XPF (sic) are the best choices for those who wish to tackle elk�
As with the .243, Barnes is the only manufacturer that thinks the .30-30 is suitable for elk, but Cartridges of the World seems to think so, too.
Here�s a quote from O�Connor, circa 1962. The �He� O�Connor refers to is himself: �The world is full of good, open- country deer cartridges�the .30-06 with the 150-grain bullet, the .270 with the 130-grain, the .280 with the 125-grain, the 7mm Remington Magnum with the 150-grain, the .300 Savage and the .308 with the 150-grain. He has never shot a deer with the .243 but considers it entirely adequate with the 100-grain bullet. He bases this opinion on a good deal of use of the now-dying .257 Roberts on deer.�
What? No mention of elk for the .243? Nope.
O�Connor on the .30-30, from the same article: �...it an excellent cartridge for this sort of thing...� (The �thing� he was referring to was �mule deer�.)
Elmer Keith disparaged the .270 Win as a �coyote rifle�. It is, of course, much more than that, but Keith liked the .33�s for elk. What would he have said about the .243 Win for elk?
Here�s Paco Kelly on the .30-30:
�Whelen stated the outside effective accuracy and power range of the 170 grain 30-30 bullet of the times was 180 yards! And believe me a good deal of game much larger than deer fell to the 30-30 over the early decades of the 20th century.�
�And yes the 150 grain Speer has the same configuration as the 130 grain pushing it close to 2450 fps with H322, H335, and Rel# 12 is no big problem. And if you want to elk hunt with your 30-30...not sure why you would want to...but this bullet does an excellent job. Getting 2300 fps with the 170 grainers is no trick...but the 125/130/150 grain bullets are such performers and the down range ballistics so good...why bother with the 170s.�
Would I recommend a .243 Win for elk? No, it�s too marginal. And that�s not just my opinion but the opinion of many experienced hunters.
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2339 with 170's in a 30-30? common boy, that's where things start getting dicey in the 30-30 ai. I know I've got several years first hand with that as well.
Of course, there�s the new Hornady LeverEvolution ammo for the .30-30 for those that don�t reload � 160g at 2400fps. At 200 yards it still carries over 1300fpe.
You might be interested to know that the Marlin part numbers for the Marlin 336 (.30-30), .336ER (.356Win) and 375 (.375 Win) receivers are the same. But the 356Win and 375Win have SAAMI pressures of 52,000 CUP, not 38,000 CUP like the .30-30. �Dicey� at 2333fps? Not really.
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Bottom line any of the 308 family or similar cartridges from 24 cal and up will do a fine job on elk. (and I do know a couple of fellers in Mt, that swear by the 22's )
Use what you want. I�ll stick with my contention that almost any common, larger diameter cartridge is better than the .243 Win for elk and that a good starting place is the 6.5mm�s with a 140g bullet at 2800fps. And I will continue to recommend a .30-30 over the .243 Win in most situations.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 05/25/06.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
