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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651 |
What would you do in this situation - continue to bring a good friend along on a hunt or finally suggest it was time for him to take up something less strenuous like bird hunting?
My hunting buddy, Dave, has been hunting with me since 1999. He is diabetic, which has caused numerous complications and problems over the years. The first few years he refused to discuss his condition, insisting he could control it. That left me to research on my own what the problem symptoms were and what to do about them, something I'm still not real comfortable doing.
Unfortunately, Dave has not been very successful at controlling the diabetes. He is a great guy in general but for years refused to take enough water or food, which meant he was eating and drinking mine by day's end. I finally put my foot down a few years ago so now his standard load is 2 liters of water and more food, same as I carry.
The big problem is I just don't know if he is capable of the physical stress anymore. Even when at home he has been hospitalized a couple times because when he gets sick and starts vomiting his body chemistry gets all messed up with potentially fatal results. Here is his record since 2004:
2004 = Got very sick on 2nd day of season. Wanted me to drive him home (Craig to Denver). That meant going through multiple mountain passes and monster snowstorms in the high country. That seemed like a good way make things worse and the passes could be closed anyway. I offered to take him to the hospital in Craig instead but he refused. Day 3 (Monday) we met his wife in Wyoming and I returned to camp alone.
2005 = No elk but Dave got a doe and used our cart to pull it about a mile back to the trailer. Along the way he puked a couple times. Later during the drive from Meeker back to the trailer at Buford Dave didn't seem himself. At best he was just tired and sleepy, a normal state of affairs. (Put him in a car and start driving and he is usually out in minutes.) During the drive I kept asking if he was OK and he insisted he was just tired. We briefly discussed having leftovers for supper and the first indication I had that something more than normal was wrong was when were back at the trailer ready to eat and he asked me if I had just made all the food. The next morning he confessed he had been hallucinating and that when he stepped inside the trailer he thought he was in a cathedral.
2006 = A one day hunt at Three Forks RFW ranch. We both got our cows and the ranch guides helped pack them out. The next morning as we dressed to go deer hunting I got word my wife was in the hospital. We packed up and went home.
2007 = Dave got sick pulling a doe out 300 yards to the truck using our cart.
2008 = Dave was a new father and stayed home.
2009 = Dave was sick and stayed home.
2010 = Dave didn't hunt.
2011 = Dave didn't hunt.
2012 = An easy opening day but Dave got worn out and sprained his ankle badly as we walked back through the sage to the truck. It was so bad his wife had to come get him. Doc said a break would have been better.
2013 = Day one was an easy day as we hunted the migration routes in the sage early and spent most of the rest of the day driving to scout different areas. The second morning Dave got very sick. We left him at the truck while we hiked a mile into Oak Ridge SWA. I called him on the FRS radio ad it was clear we had to turn back and get him some help. Daughter #2 and SIL cut their planned 2-day hunt short to take Dave back to Denver and home.
Overall, not a good record. In seven planned hunts he got sick five times, going home twice and staying home once. Another time, after an easy day of walking, he got badly injured because he was too tired to pick his feet up.
Wife and I will be meeting Dave and his family later this afternoon. My son-in-law and I have already put in for Snake River Ranch and if that fails we will to try for leftover cow tags for Unit 12. I've decided to give Dave another chance but if he gets sick this year I think that will have to be the end of our elk hunting together.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2002
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Tough situation, I hope things work out for you!
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,049
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,049 |
I feel for you buddy. The way we have done it is if you can't pull your own weight, then you stay at camp or don't come. Good elk hunting partners are pretty hard to come by. Because of this, I gave up on hunting with my best friends and hunt with my ex boss of all people. You need to be able to depend on them and they should also be able to depend on you. Sorry to hear of your friends health issues putting you in this position, but it would probably be best for both of you if he just stayed home. If he is relentless about it, you may wake up one morning and find him dead in his sleeping bag. If you are alright with that, let him keep coming. Hope you get it figured out and find the best way to approach him about it. Good luck!!
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,353
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,353 |
It's time to get him into fishing and keep it close to the road. It's less strenuous and it's still very much outdoors. Some people just don't have the physical ability to hunt and shouldn't be trying to do it.
βIn a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.β
β George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 631
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 631 |
Coyote,
I think youve done everything possible and then some, no one would fault you for saying enoughs enough. Dave has to man up and admit his limitations, his condition is eventually going to cause a very serious life and death situation. Good luck with what ever you decide.
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 20,379 |
What would you do in this situation - continue to bring a good friend along on a hunt or finally suggest it was time for him to take up something less strenuous like bird hunting?
My hunting buddy, Dave, has been hunting with me since 1999. He is diabetic, which has caused numerous complications and problems over the years. The first few years he refused to discuss his condition, insisting he could control it. That left me to research on my own what the problem symptoms were and what to do about them, something I'm still not real comfortable doing.
Unfortunately, Dave has not been very successful at controlling the diabetes. He is a great guy in general but for years refused to take enough water or food, which meant he was eating and drinking mine by day's end. I finally put my foot down a few years ago so now his standard load is 2 liters of water and more food, same as I carry.
The big problem is I just don't know if he is capable of the physical stress anymore. Even when at home he has been hospitalized a couple times because when he gets sick and starts vomiting his body chemistry gets all messed up with potentially fatal results. Here is his record since 2004:
2004 = Got very sick on 2nd day of season. Wanted me to drive him home (Craig to Denver). That meant going through multiple mountain passes and monster snowstorms in the high country. That seemed like a good way make things worse and the passes could be closed anyway. I offered to take him to the hospital in Craig instead but he refused. Day 3 (Monday) we met his wife in Wyoming and I returned to camp alone.
2005 = No elk but Dave got a doe and used our cart to pull it about a mile back to the trailer. Along the way he puked a couple times. Later during the drive from Meeker back to the trailer at Buford Dave didn't seem himself. At best he was just tired and sleepy, a normal state of affairs. (Put him in a car and start driving and he is usually out in minutes.) During the drive I kept asking if he was OK and he insisted he was just tired. We briefly discussed having leftovers for supper and the first indication I had that something more than normal was wrong was when were back at the trailer ready to eat and he asked me if I had just made all the food. The next morning he confessed he had been hallucinating and that when he stepped inside the trailer he thought he was in a cathedral.
2006 = A one day hunt at Three Forks RFW ranch. We both got our cows and the ranch guides helped pack them out. The next morning as we dressed to go deer hunting I got word my wife was in the hospital. We packed up and went home.
2007 = Dave got sick pulling a doe out 300 yards to the truck using our cart.
2008 = Dave was a new father and stayed home.
2009 = Dave was sick and stayed home.
2010 = Dave didn't hunt.
2011 = Dave didn't hunt.
2012 = An easy opening day but Dave got worn out and sprained his ankle badly as we walked back through the sage to the truck. It was so bad his wife had to come get him. Doc said a break would have been better.
2013 = Day one was an easy day as we hunted the migration routes in the sage early and spent most of the rest of the day driving to scout different areas. The second morning Dave got very sick. We left him at the truck while we hiked a mile into Oak Ridge SWA. I called him on the FRS radio ad it was clear we had to turn back and get him some help. Daughter #2 and SIL cut their planned 2-day hunt short to take Dave back to Denver and home.
Overall, not a good record. In seven planned hunts he got sick five times, going home twice and staying home once. Another time, after an easy day of walking, he got badly injured because he was too tired to pick his feet up.
Wife and I will be meeting Dave and his family later this afternoon. My son-in-law and I have already put in for Snake River Ranch and if that fails we will to try for leftover cow tags for Unit 12. I've decided to give Dave another chance but if he gets sick this year I think that will have to be the end of our elk hunting together.
Pretty sure you know the answer..
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,080
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,080 |
I'd sure cut him out, but explain why,showing him the record you posted. This getting out and hunting means you need to be with some one you can count on.
Bad things can happen to all of us and happen fast as I found out last year. I would have been in deep do-do if I hadn't had a great hunting partner that finally got me into Craig Hospital. Usually I am the one that gets to help others, but the role was switched for the first time.
It isn't all about you taking care of your buddy, but him being able to care care of you in an emergency.
My one hunting partner I have known and hunted with for over 35 years and he is a neighbor. The other 20 years or so. We make an exception for another neighbor who we both have known for 35+ years or more. He had a stroke a few years and is finally getting back into hunting. We all know we need to watch out and take care of him. None of us are spring chickens any more, which makes it all the more important. However, this guy tries and he tries hard, so it is worth the sacrifice on our part.
Interject some reality into it. At you age,count about how many elk hunts you might have left in you and you will find it probably isn't as many as you think. Do you want 25%+ of them cut short or aborted. Add to it that you he the unique ability to be able to hunt with your daughters which is tremendous thing. If the guy took care of himself that is a different story, but it sounds like he won't and you just enable him.
When I lived in Albuquerque, I hunted with a guy who had hyperglasemia (sp. His blood sugar would get low and he would pass out. I had to go look for him and find him. I finally started to carry two small bottles of orange juice for him with me and stayed closer to him. It was a real PITA. I couldn't convince myself to find anew hunting partner, but lucked out when I moved to Colorado and solved the problem.
Last edited by saddlesore; 03/22/14.
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,906
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,906 |
I feel badly for both you and your friend. I have had similar situations and I hate to "cut someone loose" but at times you have to tactfully do it-easier said than done. If your hunting time means a lot to you (and it sounds like it does) you may end up making trips by yourself. I have started doing a lot more of that-hard when I end up driving 1600+ miles to a hunt-but having health or personal reasons always come up with your partners gets old.
My last trip with a former partner he informed us on day three of a ten day trip that he needed to leave the next day (his truck) Upon return home I started planning things differently.
Golden............
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,152 |
Type 1 or type 2 diabetes?
With proper medication and compliance (it doesn't matter what you're on, it only works when you take it as directed) he shouldn't be experiencing ANY of these symptoms. If he's not managing his disease he's putting you both at risk.
Frame it to him that way. Dave, I'm really worried about you. On the last seven hunts you got sick five times. (He'll get defensive immediately but if you back down you WILL be transporting his body back to town.). If something bad happens I can't take care of you, and things seem to be getting worse. Unless you can get your diabetes under control (is he overweight?) I can't take the risk of another crash. This is about you and your health, not hunting. You have a wife and kids to take care of. That's more important than any hunting trip.
If you do it right you'll lose him as a friend for a while but he might get the clue and take responsibility for his diabetes. If you do it wrong you'll lose him as a friend forever. Either way you won't be carrying his body off the hill.
His health is his concern, not yours. He's acting very selfishly by making his health your responsibility. Don't let him do it.
P
Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.
~MolΙΜΛn LabΓ© SkΓ½la~
Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Member
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 330 |
Gosh, Coyote Hunter, I would have to echo bsa1917hunter. You have done about all you can do to accommodate the guy, but he remains in a state of denial of his real condition. He really is selfishly putting a real load and liability on you and your family. Once or twice a fella can have problems - like the flu or an injury - but this is way different, and he is being unrealistic in putting himself out there beyond medical help when he knows his condition.
Had he been in our camp last fall, we might have taken him out wrapped in a shroud. We were snowbound, with no outside communication, and it took a lot of shoveling to get free (days). We would have been unable to help that guy in our camp, and worse, we really needed everyone being able to pull some weight (just the 2 of us, though). Getting him out to help would have been completely beyond our capability until we got free ourselves. Taking care of a person in a medical crisis during all that would have prolonged being able to get out. You could be there yourself at some time.
It is time for a private heart-to heart with the guy. He needs to know that his presence is having a really significant effect on the rest of you, and that you really don't want him to die in camp. Unless you and he are OK with him coming out dead, and all the ramifications that means for you personally, he needs to quit trying this. The fishing suggestion seems best but not in really remote places. It is nice that he has confidence that you will and can bail him out, but really it is a big burden shifted to you, and he is making it impossible for you to successfully do that if he won't share information on his condition, and won't take responsibility for himself. I wonder if he even talks to his Doc about what he will be doing to see if he needs to do something different to manage it while out there (extra insulin, special diet, etc.). Probably not since he won't want to be told he should not go.
Best of luck. It won't be an easy conversation, but if he does die out there, you will be the one living with the what-ifs. It is obviously tough for him to accept that he no longer belongs out there. Having to admit to yourself you are no longer invincible and indestructible is pretty difficult, I unfortunately know this myself.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,893
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,893 |
As long as you are willing to accommodate him he is willing to let you.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Posts: 17,783
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,783 |
What BSA and Jaguar said.. Friends ran into the exact same problem with one of their party about eight years ago.. He spent all of elk season in the local hospital.. With the others running into check on him daily rather than hunting.. Next year he wanted to make the trip, but was told kindly, that it was unfair to the group to have to accept the responsibility for his well being..
Molon Labe
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 12,130 |
...if you back down you WILL be transporting his body back to town... This ^^^^ Sounds like you have gone above and beyond as a friend. Your friend needs to man up and face up to reality. I spent 15 years as an EMT. Brittle diabetics can crash VERY quickly. If he has a "diabetic emergency" several miles back in, you and the SAR team will be in for a very depressing "recovery" operation.
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263 |
Tough situation, you know what to do in his and your best interests.
Go fishing instead and carry all the supplies your doctor recommends if your friend won't. Learn how to use a syringe in an emergency situation.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 121
Campfire Member
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Posts: 121 |
A true friend can take it between the eyes. If he is in a continual state of denial, there is no words you can say other than, you telling him he is being very childish about something that can put both of you in danger on the mountain.
A true friend will not hold it against you. A family may hold it against you if something happened to him on the hunt.... something to consider....
Don't get me wrong, I am very sympathetic, but a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere...
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Joined: Jan 2012
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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COYOTE HUNTER, he is very lucky to have a friend like you. He probably needs help understanding the strain he is putting on you by placing both of you in this position. You must recognize the difference between being a friend and an enabler. Best of luck to you both.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Posts: 2,337
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 2,337 |
Just me on this if you can swing it. Buy a close: brush getter for him and ask that he whatches the back door as in close to camp. Bet you he tags out before you if you pick a good camp?
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 68
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 68 |
I would not be taking him this year mate. Dangerous to all of you. Framing this well is the key as BSA suggests. Pharmseller's point needs to be made, possibly in front of his wife.
Good luck it's not going to be easy.
Mog
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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We had a similar situation on a hunt up in Colorado, our buddy ended up getting helo'd out and spent a few days in a diabetic coma, we all learned a valuable lesson the hard way.
There's 2 dates they carve on your tombstone.
Everyone knows what they mean.
What's more important is time that is known
as the little dash inbetween.
Razz
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 663 |
Wondermutt has a good point. Your buddy might not mind dying on the mountain, (I can think of worse ways to go) but it won't any fun for the recovery folks and his family may not think too kindly of that.
We don't have those problems in my hunting camp yet but, except for the "once every few years" young guys I'm the youngest regular in camp at 52. Not looking forward to that discussion when it comes but won't dodge it either.
An armed member in a country is a citizen, an unarmed member is a subject.
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