Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Exposing the Foot Pounds of Energy Myth

I had to take a course in statistics to finish my spotted college career. The first bit of wisdom out of the professor's mouth is somenting I'll take with me to the grave.

Here was a natty man of sixty years, dressed in a three-piece tweed suit and tie, with the largest moustache I've ever seen.

His words of wisdom were as follows: "Young folks, you are going to be exposed to a lot of statistics in your long lives. Just remember this:The Average American has one ball and one tit."

Obviously, he made the point, but I laughed so hard that I thought I was going to wet myself. One thing for sure, he had our total attention from that point forward.

Steve

STEVE!!!!!!!!!!!

That's got to be one of the funniest things I've ever heard in my life <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And that's the sort of anecdotal wisdom that surely makes the cost of a college education WORTH it, I'd say!

This sorry thread needs to end on that note, but I don't suspect it will.............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

AD

Whats your question? A 168 TSX at 3200 would be fine for deer at any range.

Dude....that was funny......!

[quote]This sorry thread needs to end on that note, but I don't suspect it will..............[quote]

Why Allen?

Yeah! I heard Zig Ziglar say: (paraphrase) "Averages? Well, tell ya whaaaat. Take on pot of boiling water, and one pot of ice water and soke one foot each in them, and see if on the average your comfortable. Hmmm?"

Wouldn't matter...jwp is so hell-bent on his propganda being accepted, though he stole it from another writer, he decided to post it on 2 forums!

I simple posted for all to read,I never stated nor intended for anyone to think that it wae my research or wriiten by me.Hell just read my post and it's apparent that I could not have written anything so ellequent.You can remain closed minded if you choose and not consider any of other part of the equation if you choose

All,

Please bear with me because I just couldn�t stand to read every post in this very controversial thread. I would like to chime in on this issue with a bit of logic.

Before we can discuss KE vs. penetration ad-nauseum, perhaps we should cover something the article missed. What causes incapacitation.

The quickest and most impressive method of incapacitation is neurological interruption. Essentially killing the brain or it�s pathway (the spine). Do this and you have the proverbial �bang-flop�

The second quickest way to �stop� a man or animal is to break down the skeletal system that physically holds it up. Generally this is by pelvic shots that incapacitate the legs or hind quarters. Break the pelvis and the animal either stops or slows WAY down.

The last method of incapacitation is hypovolemia, which is a 2.00 word for bleeding out. We do this by destroying the tissue that holds blood, and causing a huge leak. This leak will eventually lead to a rapid (if you�ve done your job right) loss of blood. A rapid loss of blood overwhelms the body�s ability to maintain blood pressure which is what keeps oxygenated blood in the brain. Without oxygen, the brain stops working correctly and we begin to see loss of consciousness. As mentioned in the article, when everything goes 100% right (in this category), incapacitation may still take a few seconds to a few minutes.

Now we can throw around KE numbers or we can talk about how much penetration we get. Both are worthless unless they lead to something that actually destroys tissue that is critical to maintaining blood pressure.

I�ll agree that KE is WAY overrated, but it�s not worthless. For rational people, it is a quantifiable yardstick to help them make a decision about a cartridge, bullet or load. The whole 800-1000 FPE thing was a guideline for people who are too lazy to apply any critical thinking to the problem of killing game. I happen to think for the stupid and the lazy, it�s a good guideline. For everyone else (which is probably most on this forum) we make our conclusions based on a number of things (far too many to list).

Neither KE or penetration figures by themselves add up to success. Cartridge design, bullet design, laboratory testing, and finally years of field testing are what add up to a winner or looser. We live in good times in that there are very few losers these days where bullets and cartridges are concerned. The single biggest variable in the big game hunting equation is the shooter. Most killing is won or lost before the shot is even taken.

So, you want a sure fire way to determine if your cartridge, load or bullet is going to work? Sorry, ain�t no such thing. So you have to use that matter between your ears just like the rest of us. Gather as much information as you possibly can, practice with your preferred shootin-stick and go do the deed. FPE & penetration are small pieces of the puzzle, not the entire mural.




PS � There is one other method of incapacitation, but It�s almost exclusive to humans, which is the psychosomatic response to being shot or shot at. When Barney Fife pulls out his heater and goes to work on the bad guy, who politely falls down dead like a good bad guy; 9 times out of 10, it�s from a psychosomatic response to being shot, rather that what Barney�s .38 did to the bad guys. We as humans are somewhat pre-programmed by our entertainment media to fall down when shot; it�s a rather interesting phenomenon. I was a big city Paramedic for most of my professional life and as such, I�ve treated hundreds of gun shot wounds. The most interesting are the people who are writhing on the ground, graphically describing the pain of their GSW, but there are no additional holes in them. They were instantly incapacitated without ever being struck by a bullet � So there goes ALL theories of KE and penetration.

This would be an excellent post for jwp475 to read!

A very good post that covered this pretty well..The idea behind the post was to get people to thinking,and maybe realize that foot pounds of energy may be over rated and it is certainly not the entire equation.................. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I suppose I'll have to add my "take" on it...

!. Randy is right about copyright. "Borrow" my stuff without attribution and I get nasty.

2. FPE is a nice way to compare CARTRIDGES but is almost useless to predict KILLING ability. The .375 H&H is much more powerful than the .375 Winchester (that's a valid comparison). The .375 H&H is a "better" killer than the .375 Winchester (that is an INvalid comparison. Why? How do you define "better" when it comes to killing? Shot an animal with each one, and both critters die. No difference there. None. Shoot one BADLY with either and the OTHER animal will die quicker. So which is "better"? Beats me.
3. All these pot belly stove arguments are moot (I might say silly). Pick a gun and a cartridge you enjoy shooting. Practice until you can put the first bullet where you want it - every time. The animal you hit will die. The other guy's gun and cartridge will not kill any animal he shoots any deader.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Please see the treatise on this website for a definitive theory of wounding.

jimi

Gentlemen&Ladies:i think John Wooters or Craig Boddington spoke of the overuse of KE(stinks to get old:)) why then have forests been killed over their use? they are simple to show the average hunter(which we ain't) how strong a new&improved cartridge is i reckon cause if your a gun company and you suddlenly realize 80% of your sales are....boring old vanilla .270/308/3006 gasp horrors! we gotta boost our new stuff!soooo KE is overused.i'm nowhere near a great hunter i shoot handguns of all things and yall think .270 vs 30/06 is heated try 9 vs 40 vs 357 sig vs 45acp. thank you for yalls thoughts.

Don�t we know from experience, which cartridges are suitable for killing particular game animals? Why would we need to have the published foot pounds of energy figures to tell us, when to be honest, they don�t?

The energy figure is based on bullet weight and velocity, but we know those things already. Surely, a light bullet at extreme velocity will not kill well if it's energy is expended before it penetrates enough to destroy a vital organ, whereas a heavy bullet at low velocity will kill well, if it does. I wouldn�t choose either based on an energy figure.

Is foot pounds of energy, really a good way to compare what works and what doesn't? It tells you nothing about bullet construction, where the game animal is gonna be hit, size of the wound, or the trajectory of the bullet.

Did anyone say that FPE didn�t matter? Not me. I said the above figures weren�t worth my time. However, I have no problem with those who enjoy comparing FPE figures, confident that they are discovering marvelous things.

If there are reasons why I should pay attention to FPE, I�d be open to hearing them.

Respectfully, to the raucous crowd.
Smitty of the North

I gotta jump in here.

I've been killin critters (deer/bear) for bout 26 years now. And I am positive lots of folks have older stains in their huntin pants than that. Heck probably twice as old but here is my 2 cents worth.

I always use the shoulder shot. Not behind the shoulder but right on it. Everything dies from it. But what I did notice was that different calibers had dramatically different effects due to faster velocity.

Example on deer 30-30 (170) and 308(180) deer ran off 50 -75 yards and expired. But with my 300 ROY deer expire right where they were standing. Bang Flop.

I am not saying you need a 300 to shoot deer but the results are quite different on the initial shot. End results are the same dead deer.

Last spring I was in Sask for a bear hunt with a pard he had an 06 and I had my ROY. Both of us shoulder shot a bear. Both using 180 nosler partitons, his ran off 75 yds. Mine dropped like a rock.

Bullet size same and bullet weight the same but velocity quite different. FPE is a value of veloctiy times weight. In my experience with bullet weight being the same results are different as velocity increases on light skinned critters.

[Quote] BY RANDY WAKEMAN
Also: "We have long heard, and likely have given credence to the "800 fpe to ethically harvest deer." Yet, that number can be achieved with a 25 grain bullet at 4000 fps, or with a 350 grain bullet at 1100 fps. Obviously, there is a difference in what tissue destruction can be obtained, and the size and type of bone that can be obliterated with such divergently weighted projectiles. That dismisses the 800 fpe figure, by itself, as the only meaningful value. The ONLY figure.

It does NOT try to say that energy does not exist whether heat, rotational, or kinetic. Energy alone is not the only factor in muzzleloading terminal performance-- self-evident, but not accepted. If a truly vital organ is destroyed, an animal is not going to live very long. What could be more proven than how ineffective poor shot placement can be? Deer don't care how fast you miss them, nor does much of anything else. A bullet that does not penetrate adequately to destroy a vital organ, regardless of the energy number, is not the best combination.

It wasn't energy ALONE that I killed this caribou with: Caribou or this boar-- A Boaring pic

Nor did energy alone kill this caribou: .

Caribou aren't good at math, and it had more to do with his sudden heart attack I'd guess.[quote]
___________________________________________________________

Recently a couple of hunting buddies took an Asian water Buffalo each one of them used a 300 Ultra Mag with 180 grain TSX the other used a 500 JRH caliber revolver.The 300 ulta was shooting the 180 grainers at 3314 fps chrongrphed muzzle velocity,the 500 was shooting 425 grain hard cast at 1350 FPS the energy of the RUM was 4390 FPE, the energy of the revolver was 1720 FPE quite a difference despite the difference in energy the revolver made a one shot kill with a bullet through the shoulders ( the bull went down quickly) With this dispairity of energy the effectiveness of the handgun was outstanding,the outfitter said these buffalo just don't normially go down this fast,despite the fact that the 300RUM had 2.5 times more energy.If foot pounds of energy is so important then why is the handgun so effective?The 300 RUM was not more effective despite the 2.5 times more foot pounds of energy.
What else needs to be said.I would think that this would give reason to ponder the creadence given to FPE as the only meanfull value in the incapacitation of Animals.

Quote from my first post in this thread: "Shock" is as likely to cause death in many cases as any other physioligical reason. Shock can be induced by pain, interuption of the body's eletrical or circulatory system, etc. Energy transfer is not a "myth" but it is but one way to effectuate death in creatures, and when done with proper bullet selection, you can combine the best of both worlds of wound channel size and energy transfer.


It doesn't seem that Im saying anything really different than the writer from whom you stole the work. Yet you are attempting to use the stolen work, for which you gave no credit, to say energy transfer is a "myth," and that wound channel size is the only part of the equation that counts. Yes you are! The way I can tell is the title of this thread: " Exposeing The Foot Pounds of Energy Myth. " That along with your baseless arguments that you defend by saying: "You're not arguing with me, your arguing with wound ballistic experts" when someone corners you and you're not able to argue your point on your own without stolen work.

There is more than one way to get the job done my silly, thieving friend...more than one way! Energy transfer is not a myth. No its not!

Allen, would you rather have a 30-378 with a 180 grain at 3400 fps and a muzzle energy of 4621fpe or a 50 Alaskan wih a 525 grain at 1800 fps and a muzzle energy of 3778 fpe to face a charging buffalo even though the 30 cal has 843 foot pounds more energy I beleve that I would prefer the 50 from what I have experienced in the field and thier inlies the problem with foot pounds of energy as it is commonly used to rate effectiveness
Another example, which would say would be a better Deer cartridge a 22-250 with a 55 grain bullet or a 44 mag with a 240 grain bullet the 22-250 has 1627 FPE with a velocity of 3650 FPS,yet the 44 would only have 938 FPE with a muzzle velocity of 1300 FPS.I think that most would choose the 44

You are quite closed minded and refuse to consider that Foot Pounds of Energy,just might not be the Holly Grail as it has been touted by the gun rags.