Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Non-original Pre 64 70s-controversial thread

I'm going to say what a lot of other members here are thinking....no true M70 enthusiast has any interest in guns that have been refinished, re-chambered, re-barreled or in any way been rendered non-original...

Modified guns are Winchester only by virtue that at one time they were original specimens...I think the original intent of this forum was to discuss/showcase factory-correct specimens and posters ought to refrain from putting up instances of what, in many cases, are junked-up examples of rifles. A worn original gun is far more interesting than a bubba'd up, refinished example, IMO, especially if in a rare cartridge...

I guess I'm not a "true model 70 enthusiast" then..

I suppose I am not either but I do strive to be. I have a flaw and this is plenty true when it comes to M70's - I fall far short of knowing everything. My agenda is different than some as, given I don't know everything, I strive to learn more. With M70's, apparently the fakers have been having a field day for many years. I find this disturbing. The whole ballgame is being able to establish the difference between original and a faker's work.

As far as what people are interested in looking at on this forum, I recently started a thread focusing on M70's with the word "reblued" in the thread title. Despite the "reblued" warning, I notice 646 views. This doesn't suggest to me that there is an lack of interest.

I suspect many here are like me, they don't know it all and they have a desire to learn. There were many aspects of the RIA M70's that presented a puzzle to me. The responses I received helped move me forward in understanding that puzzle.

balltown does this mean that custom rifles on pre 64 M70 actions by Al Biesen,Len Brownell,Dale Goens,or Monte Kennedy would be "off limits" and too controversial for consideration and viewing entertainment on this forum?

I don't know a single M70 maven(hardcore collector of garden-variety user) who doesn't get palpitations just looking at one of those.

I am with Balltownbob on this one. When I see an old gun that has been reblued or refinished it garners no interest to me. I seldom even give them a look. I have a friend that collects model 70's in 95% condition or better and then refinishes the stock and reblues them. This is what trips his trigger. We all have different likes. I admire a good honest gun with character marks and wear.

I think of the gun shows I have walked through and all the reblued M1894's I have seen. I rarely give a glance at the refinished ones but there have been notable exceptions. Years ago there was .32/40 with a 36 inch barrel. It was original except for a refinish job. The refinish job made me shy away from it but I wouldn't say the rifle was of, "no interest to me." I would like to own a 36 inch barreled M1894. I believe my only chance at having one, in 40+ years of looking, was the reblued one I just referenced. So was it worth a glance - I've remembered that rifle for several decades.

Same with M70's - a refinished .270 or .30/06 - not worth a look as far as I am concerned. But one in .25/35 or .32 special (a M70!) - tell me that's not worth a glance!

I can see your point. I really like original bluing and wood stocks myself. However, I've been enjoying the heck out of my fwt 270 in its new Mcmillan stock. I guess this doesn't detract from the value of the rifle as long as you have the original stock to throw back on it. I also like Bobin's way of thinking too, and love the Biesens..

Personally have no interest in 70's that have been messed with....there are still enough original guns out there to keep me in the game.

Never thought that and I really like Winchesters.




Also didn't see where that was a forum requirement.

A worn original that has not been cared for, and in a rifles case no longer shoots close to the original standard is nothing more than a good action waiting for someone to bring it back.

By the way, handled a 230,xxx ( can't remember exactly) Pre 64 Model 70 .308W early today that was my Aunts. My Cousin said he doubts if his Mom fired two boxes of shells threw it; almost pristine with the exception the bolt has some tarnish. He doesn't use it and I've been trying to buy it for years. If I live long enough to use it he will probably give it to me.

If so, you will see it in a brown Micky with a red pad. Hopefully laying in the dirt on top of a Whitetail..

I'm going hunting up at his place tomorrow, and will try and get a pic if I can get in the house.

I guess I�m not [true Model 70 enthusiast] either.

I don�t know much of anything about 70s but I�m maybe learning a little as I go along. When I bought my $750, 30-06 shooter a few days ago I compared it with an �original, perfect� older $1,800 Model 70 and to my untrained, inexperienced eye, the shooter I bought seemed more honest somehow. Nothing was hidden about what had been done to the shooter. The other perfect gun looked restored to me and according to the shop it was all original. With fake boxes for sale and all the other counterfeit stuff out there�

Is it really all that B&W? That otherwise original Shelby Cobra had bodywork done on the left front fender at some point and now it�s worthless? I think there are degrees to this collecting thing and individuals make up their own minds about what collecting is or is not. We all have our opinions on what constitutes quality and makes an object desirable, but criticizing others for finding a little joy in whatever they�ve stumbled on to seems like energy that could best be focused elsewhere?

Personally I say keep posting all the pictures and threads you want wether the gun is all original or not. Many of these guns that are not perfect make the best shooters because you can use them without worrying about putting a tiny nick in the stock.

One of my favorite M70's started life as a 358 Featherweight and someone in the past rechambered it to 350 Rem Mag. They also did a lot of work to make the magazine long enough to allow using long bullets. He then put it in a beautiful blonde walnut stock with some great checkering. Is it a collector? Not in the least but it's about as nice of a hunting gun as one could imagine.

But I still cringe everytime I pick it up thinking someone took a $2500 rifle, probably put $1000 into it and ended up with a $1500 rifle!

The word "Collectors" appears in this thread's title....non-original 70s are not of interest to a collector...

There's a forum for Custom Rifles for anyone disposed to showing their custom M70s...

I guess if I had a chance to buy Jack O'Connor's personal M70, I'd be on it in a heartbeat even though it "had been rendered non-original" by Al Biesen. I guess I could lower my standards to put it in my meager collection.
yooper

First off, this "thread title" doesn't have "collectors" in it anywhere. Secondly, the "Winchester collectors" forum is just that: A bunch of good ol boys sharing what they have in their "collections". A lot of our collection of Winchester rifles is meager and others are many. The diversity of this group and the knowledge they share is sometimes humbling. I (for one) appreciate everyone's input on any matter regarding Winchester here. If you are looking for a place for just collectors pieces, I suggest you move on because this isn't it. Furthermore, it never will be. Hope you find what you are looking for elsewhere.

balltownbob, did someone pee in your cereal this morning? You called a guy a troll for asking an honest question and nlw this thread? I guess next you will be saying that if the gun isn't NIB it shouldn't be on here either because the nicks and wear are not factory original.

A well done rifle is just that; a fine rifle.

If it was or has a Winchester action then that's good but not necessary.

I got my fill of old M70's 50 years ago.

The last nice rifle I got does have an old M70 action. The one before that a Mauser.

I like them both. The Mauser is more desirable to me because the workmanship is better.

The qualifying aspect of this type of alteration is that it was done when these guns were run-of-the-mill every day shooters. Model 70's in those days were on the shelf and in production. Today they have experienced thousands of hunters and hunting trips and any survivors in original and good condition deserve more consideration than a donor action or rifle for a project gun.

Sure, there are cut and damaged guns that can be altered to enhance the owner's appreciation of the gun in question, but to take a good specimen that has made it all these years without alterations, deserves a better fate than being modified...

I'd kinda thought this was the place to discuss what was, and what was not, original by sharing information, knowledge, and picture of what we have and what we know.

I'd expected to learn a thing or two, and maybe avoid a few mistakes in the buying and selling market along the way.

I agree AH64guy. I've learned a lot here. Usually if you ask a question, there are many here that can point you in the right direction or help with their hard earned knowledge. Others are very good at using reference books, to help with questions. The most helpful books I've found are Rules "the rifleman's rifle" and "the little red book of Winchester values". I know this place has saved me some money and it's also helped better my judgment when something needed to be snagged because it was too good of a deal to pass up. It's really a good place where we have a lot in common and share a passion for old Winchesters. It's not all about who has the most pristine, original, rarest, most expensive rifle here. If that were the case, only a couple people would ever visit this place

I like the diversity of interests expressed here. There's a variety of reasons people appreciate rifles (original and non-original) and that's ok with me. Much of the time what they have to say is of interest. I'm not looking for people who have the identical perspective I have. What can possibly be gained from that?

As far as rifles inspiring me to give them a glance, beggars can't be choosers. If I could walk through a gunshow and find nothing but pristine or NIB early M70's in super rare calibers, I would surely enjoy myself. Instead, I often walk through a gunshow and find little of interest. This gets worse every year - if I could pump up my interest in jerky and throwing stars I could enjoy gun shows a lot more.

A few years ago a new Gander Mountain store opened near me. A few people that knew me (non-gun people) suggested to me that I must be really happy about the store and no doubt I would be up there all the time looking. I've been there once and even though the rifles were all strictly original and not a reblued one in the bunch, not a one was of the slightest interest. Same happened when a Dick's open near me.

I've steadily morphed into more of a collector than a hunter. I'm not proud of this and view the collector bug in me as my most prominent neurosis. I admire guys for whom their main interest in a rifle is hunting. The M70 converted to a .350 Remington Magnum referenced above is of interest to me and I'll bet it is a wonderful hunter. The current owner's hands are clean as the rifle was modified before he got it - no reason for chastisement - just enjoyment of the rifle. And, he has a rifle far more interesting than anything you will find at Dick's or Gander Mountain.

Finally, let me add that in my experience, much knowledge about original rifles can be gained from analysis and discussion of non-original rifles.