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This outfit makes decent budget priced saddle and panniers. BUTTHEAD PACK GOATS

I have owned goats from Nubians to Nigerian dwarfs and I miss them a lot. They sure do have great personalities and if you bottle feed them you will never get them away from you!

Have a great time with them, they are my favorite farm animal.

Snubby: You need to read FM3-05.213 It is available online. A good book is "The Pack Goat" by John Mionczynski ISBN 0-87108-828-2

I have that book. Great guide book. He was THE pioneer of packing with goats while doing scientific study of Bighorn sheep back in the 1970's. Goats were the only animal he could envision going where the sheep were and following them daily. In his book he says he laughed out loud at the initial thought but since he kept dairy goats, the more he thought about it the more sense it made. He built a saddle, gave it a try and voila' , goat packing was born.

I have often thought about goats.How do they travel on long road trips? I suppose you would just use a small stock trailer.I know this is probably a stupid question.We took Mules on our last Co. trip which was about a 26 hr drive,but my buddy sold his mules and was thinking this might be a better option..Thanks

Goats are very easy travelers. You can take them in about anything although they need protection from the wind. They're not as cold hardy as other pack animals.

Snubbie and I have discussed a potential problem with goats - the USFS is considering banning them from any place where wild sheep might be because of potential diseases...by which they really mean almost all national forests. There's no scientific evidence that diseases can be passed from goats to sheep but evidence isn't an issue. It's part of the liberals' plan to ban all grazing and other livestock from our national forests.

Rock Chuck Don't be concerned with forest service regs--if you transport the goats in a horse trailer you'll be invisible to a tree cop- they are forbidden from getting out of their vehicles, it might get their boots dirty---you will never meet one on a trail--load the goats up before eight in the morning or after five in the evenings and you never run into one. enjoy the mountains, respect the land and don't worry about the people who are only interested in their paychecks.
good hunting and packing

There is NO scientific studies done, nor any scientific evidence, nor ANY known incidence of domestic goats passing any disease to any wild animal, bighorn sheep or otherwise. Current plans are to shut down the Wind River Range in Wyoming and apparently, future plans to close most of the NF land in Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana to goat packing.
I have a difficult time envisioning the FS taking the initiative to do this without some outside influence. Don't know who's pulling the strings, maybe lefty tree-hugger types? Hunting outfitters?(Goats can pack you into areas horses cannot go) I'm not that familiar with western outfitters but it is my understanding that some of them look at recreational hunters as competition horning in on "their" territory and their livelihood.

Anyway, it is worth noting the North American Packgoat Association, (NAPgA) http://www.napga.org/
has taken up a lawsuit to fight this and needs funds. For those of you interested, you may want to consider joining or sending a donation to help them fight this. Once it's gone, it's gone forever and then they'll likely start on llamas or other pack animals.
If you go to the NAPgA site, http://www.napga.org/ and click on the "issues" tab on the left, you can find plenty of info on the issue.

I'm betting is more a wild sheep hunting group thing than a "tree-hugger" thing. A quick google will show those groups stance on the subject. I'd like to see a study that proves that goats CANNOT transmit disease to wild sheep.

Its HIGHLY unlikely that any wild sheep would ever come in contact with a pack goat. You don't often see sheep wandering through a camp.

A name that will show up constantly in these issues is Western Watersheds Project. They're a radical left wing bunch from Hailey, ID with unlimited funds. Their goal is to eliminate all domestic animals from public land and they've filed suit after suit to shut us all down.

John Mionczynski was the pioneer of goat packing, doing scientific research of sheep in the Wind River Range. He traveled extensively among the sheep, and their habitat, apparently for years with his goats. That was thirty years ago. Since then, goat packing has grown in popularity across the west. (Check out Patrick's (Kifaru) excellent video on YouTube) The Wind River Range is somewhat of a "destination" of sorts for goat packing. In spite of thirty years of recreational goat packing, there exists no known incident of bighorns being affected in any way from domestic goats.

So I cannot imagine why one WOULD do a scientific study that proves goats CANNOT transmit disease to wild sheep if there is zero evidence to even suggest the possibility. Especially if we're not willing to do a scientific study that proves goats CAN spread disease to wild sheep, yet are willing to pass prohibitions based on that premise alone.
Typically scientific studies aren't done on the basis of no evidence.

As I understand it, diseases are mostly species specific. Having said that, domestic sheep are extensively grazed on NF land throughout the west and I know of no study that suggests domestic sheep can pass disease to wild sheep. THAT seems reasonably possible. Maybe they're not grazed where wild sheep live. Dunno.

I've yet to see much activity from WWP on this issue and I am highly aware of who and what they are.. Others yes.

That said, most of the policy statements from these groups lump sheep and goats together in the context of grazing. I'd be surprised if they'd make an exception for pack goats.

In WY, they've specified some wilderness areas where there is no grazing.

You mean where there has been no grazing to start with? In other words, it isn't a "no grazing" stance, it is directly aimed at pack goats in wilderness areas.
That's what you're saying ^here correct?

I'm not sure I follow you. Can you clarify what you mean?

That's in response to Pointers comment:
Since there is no grazing in wildness areas, it's obvious that the bans are aimed specifically at pack goats.

Snubbie- It's well accepted that domestic sheep can and do spread diseases to wild sheep. Lots of info on that subject. Domestic goats are often lumped in with sheep as they carry many of the same diseases that domestic sheep carry that cause problems with wild sheep. However, domestic goats are not nearly as numerous as domestic sheep and definitely not nearly as common on public lands. There deifinitely is an issue with domestic sheep grazing on public lands in areas with wild sheep. It's a hot button item for many groups on either side of the issue. One side wants to keep grazing their sheep and the other side wants the sheep replaced with cattle or the grazing by domestics ceased. This is mostly due to the disease issue, which can and has had a drastic impact on wild sheep numbers and distribution.

That's a long way of saying, there's lots of info/studies out there pertaining to disease transmission from domestic sheep to wild sheep. Goats carry the same diseases and are therefore often lumped, for management purposes, with domestic sheep. Right or wrong, I don't know and why I asked the question. However, a study showing that domestic goats cannot transmit disease to wild sheep would go along way in ensuring the use of them as pack animals on public lands.

Here's a couple links to info regarding goats, wild sheep and diseases. Most appears annectdotal, but there it is...
http://www.bighorndiseaseinfo.org/exclusivity_of_domestic_sheep_as_fatal_disease_vector.html

http://www.cfc.umt.edu/weedgrazing/Brian%20Jansen.pdf

I read the opening page of the link. I'll read the rest later. I agree, the "evidence" presented is anecdotal at best. In fact, it even mentions the evidence as being anecdotal or circumstantial.

But look at this quote:

"It was concluded that identical Pasteurella strains were shared by the goats and bighorn sheep. Although the direction of transmission could not be established, evidence suggests transmission of strains from goats to bighorn sheep.'

It admits that the direction of transmission could not be established and then says "evidence suggests" transmission from goats to bighorn sheep. What evidence?

When they site evidence that supposedly contradicts what was just stated, then why not present the evidence to back up the claim?
These kinds of "studies" always bug me and when I read things like the quote above it always makes me suspect of the whole thing and I naturally gravitate toward an agenda hidden behind the information being presented. Not saying there is or not and I realize that can run both ways also.

I agree, the "evidence" is anecdotal. But considering there is no scientific study to support banning goats from wilderness areas, I believe they (USFS) are jumping the gun a bit on their current plans to ban packgoats.

The study cited above also implicates domestic sheep, cattle and llamas.



Considering sheep, cattle, et. al. have been grazing and otherwise moving about in these same areas for what, 100 years or so, one has to ask "why now"? Why is this NOW a threat and if it is such a threat, then why do we even still have bighorns? Why didn't they die off decades ago?

In this current age where everyone has an agenda, as I mentioned, my cynical and suspicious mind always gravitates to the motivation or agenda behind the actions, information, or "studies".

I believe Rock Chuck may have hit the nail on the head. The agenda hidden behind it all could well be to shut down all grazing or recreational use of pack animals.

Back to MY goats...
I'm having to give them a pill daily. I've given hundreds to dogs and cats. Sticking your finger in a kid goats mouth the first time feels like lots of little razor blades inside! The first one was squirming and I about drew back a nub!
After him, my little girl remarked, "Daddy your finger is bleeding." "I know baby but we have two more to go."

He didn't bite me, I just accidentally rubbed my finger against a razor blade!

Isn't that what "kid" gloves are for?

Just asking.