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Campfire Ranger
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I think "sporting" is a matter of the level of skill involved. Hunters who tiller their own bows and fletch their own arrows like to do it that way because they enjoy the skill required. Hunters who use dogs enjoy the results of their dog training skills. Handgun hunters are proud of their stalking skills, and riflemen are proud of their ability to assemble ammunition and use it effectively.
The animal has no chance other than the chance we allow it to have. We sit down in the off season and decide how many game animals need to die this year to keep the population where we want it, and issue licenses accordingly. We could kill them all any time we wanted (yes, even hogs). Giving the animal a chance, or not, is not an "ethical" decision.
Unethical is when we break mutually agreed upon rules of sport. In other words, unethical is when we cheat one another, not when we take advantage of an animal.
Suppose an old widow engages an attorney and gives him a cash retainer. After she leaves, he recounts the money and realizes she gave him $1,100, not $1,000 as agreed upon. His ethical question is: Must he tell his partner?
So, I choose the methods and game that suit me and my aptitudes. I encourage all of you to do the same - even if it means shooting a 7 mag :-)
Very good post.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So hog eye, you don't include fair chase in your definition of ethical hunting?
How about spotlighting deer?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Thanks, Jim.
Smokepole, "ethical" is defined by the group. Missouri deer hunters have, through the Conservation Commission, banned night hunting for deer. So, it would be unethical to hunt deer at night in Missouri with or without a spotlight.
Most would say spotlighting deer isn't sporting either. That's a separate issue. It might be that a hunter who is too old to see at night (or stay up late even) might find spotlighting to be quite a challenge, and for that hunter it might be "sporting" even if not ethical.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Smokepole, "ethical" is defined by the group. Missouri deer hunters have, through the Conservation Commission, banned night hunting for deer. So, it would be unethical to hunt deer at night in Missouri with or without a spotlight. Partially true. Not all things that are banned by law are unethical, and not all things that are legal are ethical. There's a reason why spotlighting is banned not only in MO, but everywhere in the US. And that's not just because the group decided to ban it but because it violates the principal of fair chase and gives the shooter an unfair advantage. The part of your previous post I take issue with is this: The animal has no chance other than the chance we allow it to have. We sit down in the off season and decide how many game animals need to die this year to keep the population where we want it, and issue licenses accordingly. We could kill them all any time we wanted (yes, even hogs). Giving the animal a chance, or not, is not an "ethical" decision. Giving the animal a fair chance, however you want to define that, is most certainly an ethical decision, that's what "fair chase" is all about. If the only ethical decision is deciding how many need to die, and we can kill them all any time we want, then shooting deer in a cage would be ethical. But it's not because that's not fair chase.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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What would Aristotle say?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Big Aristotle, or Little A?
Didn't you mean to say "Ingwe?"
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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There's a reason why spotlighting is banned not only in MO, but everywhere. And that's not just because the group decided to ban it but because it violates the principal of fair chase and gives the shooter an unfair advantage. I'm sure that's certainly true, but I'd say you glossed over the biggest reason spotlighting is illegal: safety. You violate one of the principals of hunter safety when you shoot at an animal and cannot reasonaly determine what is behind it.
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Good point, but I'm pretty sure the main reason spotlighting is banned is fair chase.
Edited to add, if you're interested in how B&C and P&Y define Fair Chase, here it is:
"FAIR CHASE is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild, native North American big game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper advantage over such animals."
P&Y goes on to list methods that are not fair chase as the taking of animals under the following conditions:
Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice.
From any power vehicle or power boat.
By �jacklighting� or shining at night.
By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons.
While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures.
By the use of any power vehicle or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground.
By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Bob, Aristotle was gay, so I guess he'd use a .270.  Smokepole, we are in complete agreement about spotlighting and fair chase. I think we have gotten to arguing about word definitions, and I've already said enough about that to sprain my brain. I think I'll go clean up a cemetary, plant some flags, and think about which weapon to use for the tree squirrel opener. Have a great evening. Carl
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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There's a reason why spotlighting is banned not only in MO, but everywhere. And that's not just because the group decided to ban it but because it violates the principal of fair chase and gives the shooter an unfair advantage. I'm sure that's certainly true, but I'd say you glossed over the biggest reason spotlighting is illegal: safety. You violate one of the principals of hunter safety when you shoot at an animal and cannot reasonaly determine what is behind it. Spotlighting is not illegal. We do it regularly here. Hunting with a spotlight is illegal.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You too Carl. Hunting ethics is a subject that interests me so I like to hear different people's takes on it and hash over this stuff.
Much more fun that talking about which cartridge is best.
Just remember, squirrel hunting is not to be taking lightly; use enough gun.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Regular
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There's a reason why spotlighting is banned not only in MO, but everywhere. And that's not just because the group decided to ban it but because it violates the principal of fair chase and gives the shooter an unfair advantage. I'm sure that's certainly true, but I'd say you glossed over the biggest reason spotlighting is illegal: safety. You violate one of the principals of hunter safety when you shoot at an animal and cannot reasonaly determine what is behind it. Spotlighting is not illegal. We do it regularly here. Hunting with a spotlight is illegal. Given the context in which we were discussing spotlighting, it was a given that we were talking about spotlighting while hunting. But if you want to find a hair to split, be my guest.
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Moosemike went all Petzal on us........
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Moosemike went all Petzal on us........ 
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Campfire Tracker
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Well if you have to write down your ethics, you already lost. Its what you do or don't do when nobody is watching is what matters. I have problems with the Idea of shooting game at the distances some are doing, but that them and not me. I shoot one of the most technically advances rifles on the planet, its a Blaser R-93 and in 7mm RM and I shoot run of the mill 150 gr bullets out of it, these days I been shooting Fusions and the deer I hunt fall down with out much fuss.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well if you have to write down your ethics, you already lost. You got a better way to discuss them on the internet?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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gmsmsel,
Humans have been writing about ethics ever since we developed writing, and will continue to write (and debate) ethics until we cease to be human.
The concept that each person's moral/ethical code is equally valid is essentially "situational ethics," meaning the correct action depends on the precise situation.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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So, Ingwe is Aristotle, and Aristotle is gay, and uses a 270.....?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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No, it's even worse. He used a 7 X 57. And said the .270 was unethical.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Tracker
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We should worry more about the commercial poachers and serial poachers and less about what range someone else shoots their deer.
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