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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 746
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2002
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And then there is the SMG. WWII really brought that to light. It's about the number of rounds ...
The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.
Samuel Adams
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,751
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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1) 45 or 9, neither of them are worth a poop for penetrating barriers, but that's not what a pistol is used for 9mm NATO typically has better barrier penetration than the 5.56 inside of 100 yards. It will also out-penetrate most .44 mag loads on barrier penetration. It's a seriously punchy little cartridge. I am calling BS! I have shot a 44 mag and 9mm through enough cars doors to know it will not out penetrate a properly loaded 44 mag. A properly loaded 45 ACP in +P form will penetrate as good and sometimes better than 9mm on car doors. +1. No way a 9mm is out penetrating the 44 on anything given the proper bullet. Would love to see the link please.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
The higher the velocity the better a bullet penetrates steel no matter the construction. Use a proper constructed bullet and penetration increases again in steel. I know this from much experience shooting steel. The 44 mag has more speed than a 9mm and more momentum as well. Use a properly constructed bullet in the 44 mag and it will shooting through any part of a car or truck door, not so with the 9mm.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 889
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2010
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1) 45 or 9, neither of them are worth a poop for penetrating barriers, but that's not what a pistol is used for 9mm NATO typically has better barrier penetration than the 5.56 inside of 100 yards. It will also out-penetrate most .44 mag loads on barrier penetration. It's a seriously punchy little cartridge. I am calling BS! I have shot a 44 mag and 9mm through enough cars doors to know it will not out penetrate a properly loaded 44 mag. A properly loaded 45 ACP in +P form will penetrate as good and sometimes better than 9mm on car doors. ...in my experience, i agree with this. while the "tiny 9" is a fabulous round--and i've fired them completely through railroad ties--they can't hold a candle to properly loaded .44's and their ability to penetrate. i've fired 290 gr hardcast pills completely through 14 inch diameter logs, and on through a jug of water behind that, and it continued on to plow into the earth, for an awesome display of penetration and power... regarding the potential for penetration on car doors--i'll prefer the heavy .45 auto pills with appropriate construction (rather than the 9 mm)...
Last edited by Hi_Vel; 07/12/14. Reason: rather than the 9 mm
all learning is like a funnel:
however, contrary to popular thought, one begins with the the narrow end.
the more you progress, the more it expands into greater discovery--and the less of an audience you will have...
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Just because one has 15-20 rds on tap doesn't mean they are better served than having 8-10. Sure it does. If there are 11 bad guys, 15-20 would be better. Or 6 bad guys you had to shoot twice. Or 4 bad guys that were moving and hard to hit. Or 3 bad guys wearing soft armor. Or 2 bad guys who needed suppressive fire. More bullets and less reloading is always good. If somebody's of the mindset to "spray and pray" with 15 rounds, they're the same guy who's gonna spray and pray with 8 rounds. That's a software issue, not a hardware issue. Oh I don't know. 8 to 10 rounds with a 4 in front of it beats just about any 15 to 20 rounds with a 3 in front of it. Just saying.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,955
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
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Yeah, at the end of the day its the need of how quickly you can drop someone at rock throwing distance before you're dead or hit.
The rest are all wants.
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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That's what baffles this old guy. The Army knows it's tough to train personal to be proficient with a handgun. Hence, the reason for building and issuing the M-1 carbine for many troops that would normally have been issued a 1911. Also the reason for issuing a bayonet with the battle rifle to infantry. Troops can be trained to use a battle rifle and bayonet and gain a reasonable level of proficiency with minimal time.
So what's the logic behind issuing everyone a handgun? There isn't... But I'd prefer to carry an M1 or M4 carbine over either a 45 or a 9mm
Last edited by idahoguy101; 07/12/14.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
1) 45 or 9, neither of them are worth a poop for penetrating barriers, but that's not what a pistol is used for 9mm NATO typically has better barrier penetration than the 5.56 inside of 100 yards. It will also out-penetrate most .44 mag loads on barrier penetration. It's a seriously punchy little cartridge. I am calling BS! I have shot a 44 mag and 9mm through enough cars doors to know it will not out penetrate a properly loaded 44 mag. A properly loaded 45 ACP in +P form will penetrate as good and sometimes better than 9mm on car doors. ...in my experience, i agree with this. while the "tiny 9" is a fabulous round--and i've fired them completely through railroad ties--they can't hold a candle to properly loaded .44's and their ability to penetrate. i've fired 290 gr hardcast pills completely through 14 inch diameter logs, and on through a jug of water behind that, and it continued on to plow into the earth, for an awesome display of penetration and power... regarding the potential for penetration on car doors--i'll prefer the heavy .45 auto pills with appropriate construction (rather than the 9 mm)... If one takes the 45 loaded with 230 grain RJM at the original velocity of about 850 fps plus or minus and shoot a 55 gallon steel drum the bullet will penetrate the on side and dent the offside and stay inside the drum. A 9 mm with RJM will exit the drum. But increase the 45 ACP velocity to 1000 fps as much as the +P loads produce and the 45 ACP exits both sides of the drum.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,059
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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@jwp475, can a 1911 take feeding those 45acp +p loads consistently?
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
@jwp475, can a 1911 take feeding those 45acp +p loads consistently? Not sure what you mean by consistently, I shoot them or 45 Suppers exclusively. The key to a 1911 lasting with the heavier loads is that it is properly fitted all of them are not. I send mine the JRH Advanced Gun smithing if I have any concerns and never look back.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,059
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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jwp475, I thought most +p loads, (9mm, 45acp) are harder on the handgun? Thought awhile back when I was looking at 9mm handguns some brands recommended NOT shooting +p loads. But it's been awhile since I've looked.
By consistently, I mean shooting the +p loads all the time, foregoing shooting regular/standard pressure loads. The 45acp seems kind of slow, so why not shoot the 45acp all the time?
Only drawback would be changing the soft shooting 1911 to something a little more snappier in recoil.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,908 |
As I posted I shoot nothing but +Ps or Supers in mine. I like the performance and feel better armed witH them.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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That's what baffles this old guy. The Army knows it's tough to train personal to be proficient with a handgun. Hence, the reason for building and issuing the M-1 carbine for many troops that would normally have been issued a 1911. Also the reason for issuing a bayonet with the battle rifle to infantry. Troops can be trained to use a battle rifle and bayonet and gain a reasonable level of proficiency with minimal time.
So what's the logic behind issuing everyone a handgun? There isn't... But I'd prefer to carry an M1 or M4 carbine over either a 45 or a 9mm Jesus [bleep]' Christ Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Posts: 96,121 |
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Oh I don't know. 8 to 10 rounds with a 4 in front of it beats just about any 15 to 20 rounds with a 3 in front of it.
Just saying.
You're a [bleep]' idiot. "Just sayin'." Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
If I couldn't shoot, I'd definitely carry a shotgun. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082 |
I'm betting they end up with something along the lines of the hk mp7. Low recoil, penetrates body armor, light weight gun and ammo, easy to shoot. I doubt its a good idea, but I'll bet that's where they end up. Maybe Hi-Point could tool up to submit a gun. LOL
Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
I'm betting they end up with something along the lines of the hk mp7. Low recoil, penetrates body armor, light weight gun and ammo, easy to shoot. I doubt its a good idea, but I'll bet that's where they end up. Maybe Hi-Point could tool up to submit a gun. LOL You are probably right but that would be a stop gap measure. What's going to be needed is a shoulder fired rocket with probably a shaped charge that will penetrate body armor and blow the occupant in the body armor to kingdom come and back. I'm thinking of medieval times when we went from chain mail only to chain mail and plate armor to firearms and gunpowder and someone said ah screw the armor. I suppose there is this possibility as well. In the not to distant future we will have perfected hand held lasers to such a extent that we will just vaporize an opponent and than body armor won't matter at all.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,193
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,193 |
All I know is that when I use the FN 5.7 on Call of Duty I am totally unstoppable.
Travis Me too, except I keep blinding myself with my own flashbangs.
Life is like a purple antelope on a field of tuna fish...
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 476
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 476 |
You want a real penitrator try the 7.62x25 it got the job done
in WW2 and works good against light steel and thick back packs
Course it dosn't have lots of expanding power as it was used as
such. With a hollow point bullet it might be the cats meoww.
Bob
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