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3 things killing Christianity today

Intellectualism
Feminism
Homosexuality

True, but you forgot a few. Among them, cultural accommodation.

Steve.

Then you've reduced your position to one of circular reasoning.

As for air, i don't have to assume it exists. I can put an upside down cut into the water and see something is displacing the water. For there we can do more complex experiments until we can determine the atomic break down etc.

You can also add science.

Yep and the presence of those laws (and your certainty that they may be relied upon) all point to the existence of some author; perhaps not directly to the God of Christianity, but at least to some uncaused first cause.

The truth is the truth. You can kick against it and deny it all you want; it really is of no concern to me. I find it enlightening to note that there are several here who will predictably show up to any thread about Christianity and point out their own lack of belief.

Why bother? You don't have to believe anything. If it's so foolish why waste your time?

Fixed it for you. It's not science that is opposed to Christianity. It's dogmatic science that considers something settled when it's not proven. Funny how virtually all the pioneers in science were Christian believers. That's why theology was once viewed as "queen of the sciences." They viewed science as faith seeking understanding. The Swiss theologian Karl Barth borrowed that idea and defined theology that way. I actually can't think of any Christians I know who are afraid of science.

Steve.

Not at all. By presupposing a creator, all you've done is fall into the infinite regression of creator creators, and in the process you have explained nothing.

It is Science that's pushed the God of the Gaps into a smaller and smaller space.

As for Scientist being Christian, The Enlightenment stood on the shoulders of Muslims, who'd translated and studies the ancient Greek Polytheist Philosophers. In addition when you live in the world of the Inquisition, to be other then Christian is to risk death.

To assert a Christian root for science during a time when Heretics were burned at the stake is not very convincing. As for Christians not being afraid of Science, then why, according to a 2005 Gallop poll are 30% of Americans upset that evolution is taught in school?

That's all you've got left?
An attempt to discourage and get rid of the opposing point of view?
It's OK for proselytizing to be worth your while, but because my view point is different, it shouldn't be worth my time to express an opposing view point?

Really?

Honest question.

I have done no proselytizing. I've offered the facts as I see them just as you have to me. This is a question I have for you.

If you can't answer that is fine, I really was just asking. Just seems weird to me. When someone brings up some absurd point that I think is self-evidently false I don't bother arguing. I just let it stand for what it is.

Are you avoiding the question? Why not answer?

Just to be clear I have no illusions of converting you or anything. I am genuinely interested in the conversation. Not trying to change your mind, but to open you up to different possible answers to your objections. I can see that you're well entrenched in your conclusions on the matter just as you can see I am in mine. This isn't a contest or show of one upsmanship. At least not from me.

Let me ask you this , and I'm being sincere. What is your motivation to win the argument? It's obvious that Christians would like to see others saved. I'll concede that some are judgmental and self righteous, but let's set that aside for a moment and assume that the Christian honestly wants to help someone to be saved and live a better life while at the same time avoiding eternal damnation in Hell.

So that leavs us with why it matters to you. The Christians are happy and aren't hurting anyone , so why argue against them? If as you say there is no God, then what does it matter if they hold a belief that says to love other people and do good toward them, even if it is in the name of God?

Now I'm not trying to pick on you personally, because I think you are sincere in your doubt, but from a Christian viewpoint, there can only be one reason for your vehement desire to try your best to undermine any and all Christian threads. Whether you know it or acknowledge it, you have become a tool of the enemy.

Now that doesn't make me hate you, many have been tools of the enemy, even wearing the name of Christian. I just want you to honestly examine yourself and find the root of your desire to undermine Christian views. Why rail against someone that does not exist? The very importance of God in your life should be proof of his existence. Now, don't tell me God isn't important to you, because any Christian thread is irresistible to you.

There is NO proof, non whatsoever. As a Christian I am fine with that and understand it. God did not leave clear cut proof because He wanted people to come to Him by faith. This is my belief. You are entitled to disagree. It does not bother me one bit if you believe I am wrong just as it should not bother you that I believe you are wrong. There is no way to settle this in this life.

I would like to point out that if you are right and I am wrong neither us us has been hurt. I have just lived my life trying to live by a creed that was false. I did not hurt one single person by my beliefs. If however I am right and you are wrong the consequences would be different.

You will never change my mind and I will never attempt to beat my beliefs into you. I am willing to let go and chalk it up as something we may never agree on and get on with living life. Are you willing to do the same?

BC30cal, well put, and lovingly so as usual.

To those here who do not believe or scorn the church:

Christians are not only not perfect; some that are, are not. Even for those who truly are, in Romans 7, the Apostle Paul teaches us about the original,sinful nature we have to deal with once we come to Christ. We do this with varying degrees of success even though "born again." So you may see what you say is the hypocrite on occasion and perhaps he/she is; but perhaps not. I struggle with sinful patterns of behavior though I fight against them daily, but believe and trust in the redeeming blood of Christ and His spirit in me. People like me make the church imperfect--the spiritual hospital it was meant to be.

But to BC's point, The Church is the body of all believers, crossing denominations, cultures, languages, and socioeconomic groups-all who believe in and trust Christ for their redemption.

As a group, and organized, we can do things beyond the reach of the individual's resources, as Dwayne said, to bring the hand of Jesus and his healing words to the needy.

For example, here I am, in-country, in Ghana, Africa under the auspices of the Lukes Society, a Christian Medical Mission outreach involved in bringing medical care to some thirty Third World countries. In Ghana, a surgeon believer and friend and his two sons, and I, went to a small country hospital and though in archaic and difficult conditions performed about twenty surgeries in a two week period.



Did you know universities (the Ivy Leagues in our country), hospitals, and women's rights were initially brought to the light of day by Christians?

The Church, here on earth, will never be perfect because of it's members, but that does not render false the message of it's Cornerstone, Jesus Christ. It only proves that His message concerning us two millennia ago was needed and exactly right.

Well said, bro.

Yep, the Jews will not regain their homeland, they will not be carried to safety as if by the wings of an eagle, and treaties will prevent their enemies from trying to drive them into the sea, and they will lose their homeland.

Yep, easily explained by the laws of physics God ordained or by the luck of a molecular alignment by happenstance a trillion times less likely than drawing the lucky lotto power ball number, but that's where the educated place their bet, huh?

I would like to point out that in any discussion put downs, name calling, and extreme sarcasm do nothing for your cause.

Not directed at anyone but rather to all.

EFW, Thanks for your clarification. Usually when a theist asks this question it's an attempt to sidetrack the discussion because they've realized they cannot make progress discussion the evidence.

I engage in these conversations for several reason. I do not debate to change your mind, but rather to offer a counter perspective to the many undecided lurkers who read these discussions. Although many are not ready to breach this subject in the open, I do enjoy the PM's I receive from these members.

Next I am concerned about the potential damage dogmatic theism (and dogmatic leftism) can cause to our great nation. How many times have I posted the video on "Naming Rights" and how Al-Ghazali's pronouncement's against science crippled progress within the Muslim civilization relegating what were the most enlightened people in the world to a 5th rate has been status? We see pronouncements of this nature today. Pope John Paul II said scientist could examine the mechanics of nature, but forbid them from examining the beginnings of the universe because "that was the domain of God". As I mentioned above a significant percentage of Americans do not want evolution, the basis of modern biology, taught in our schools. This matches with the 42% of Americans who believe the earth in no more then 10k years old. 2014 Gallop Poll

We complain our nation is falling behind in math and science, while teaching our children to abandon reason, and just "have faith" in a collection 2000-2500 year old stories, and take these stories as literal truth, or risk an eternity of punishment?

I debate because I love my nation, the evidence does not support your position, and your position is potentially harmful to this nation, and consequently it can affect me and my children.