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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Honest question.
I have done no proselytizing. I've offered the facts as I see them just as you have to me. This is a question I have for you.
If you can't answer that is fine, I really was just asking. Just seems weird to me. When someone brings up some absurd point that I think is self-evidently false I don't bother arguing. I just let it stand for what it is.
Are you avoiding the question? Why not answer? EFW, Thanks for your clarification. Usually when a theist asks this question it's an attempt to sidetrack the discussion because they've realized they cannot make progress discussion the evidence. I engage in these conversations for several reason. I do not debate to change your mind, but rather to offer a counter perspective to the many undecided lurkers who read these discussions. Although many are not ready to breach this subject in the open, I do enjoy the PM's I receive from these members. Next I am concerned about the potential damage dogmatic theism (and dogmatic leftism) can cause to our great nation. How many times have I posted the video on "Naming Rights" and how Al-Ghazali's pronouncement's against science crippled progress within the Muslim civilization relegating what were the most enlightened people in the world to a 5th rate has been status? We see pronouncements of this nature today. Pope John Paul II said scientist could examine the mechanics of nature, but forbid them from examining the beginnings of the universe because "that was the domain of God". As I mentioned above a significant percentage of Americans do not want evolution, the basis of modern biology, taught in our schools. This matches with the 42% of Americans who believe the earth in no more then 10k years old. 2014 Gallop Poll We complain our nation is falling behind in math and science, while teaching our children to abandon reason, and just "have faith" in a collection 2000-2500 year old stories, and take these stories as literal truth, or risk an eternity of punishment? I debate because I love my nation, the evidence does not support your position, and your position is potentially harmful to this nation, and consequently it can affect me and my children. DITTOS on religion.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Faith is a belief despite very poor, or a total lack of evidence.
Once someone resorts to the faith card they are admitting there is not reasonable evidence for their position.
I rest my case, or should I say case in point? Yep, the Jews will not regain their homeland, they will not be carried to safety as if by the wings of an eagle, and treaties will prevent their enemies from trying to drive them into the sea, and they will lose their homeland. Are you being facetious or serious? If you are being serious, let me point out that you advocating for Armageddon, and the end of the world.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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BC30cal, well put, and lovingly so as usual. To those here who do not believe or scorn the church: Christians are not only not perfect; some that are, are not. Even for those who truly are, in Romans 7, the Apostle Paul teaches us about the original,sinful nature we have to deal with once we come to Christ. We do this with varying degrees of success even though "born again." So you may see what you say is the hypocrite on occasion and perhaps he/she is; but perhaps not. I struggle with sinful patterns of behavior though I fight against them daily, but believe and trust in the redeeming blood of Christ and His spirit in me. People like me make the church imperfect--the spiritual hospital it was meant to be. But to BC's point, The Church is the body of all believers, crossing denominations, cultures, languages, and socioeconomic groups-all who believe in and trust Christ for their redemption. As a group, and organized, we can do things beyond the reach of the individual's resources, as Dwayne said, to bring the hand of Jesus and his healing words to the needy. For example, here I am, in-country, in Ghana, Africa under the auspices of the Lukes Society, a Christian Medical Mission outreach involved in bringing medical care to some thirty Third World countries. In Ghana, a surgeon believer and friend and his two sons, and I, went to a small country hospital and though in archaic and difficult conditions performed about twenty surgeries in a two week period. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Georgedevries/P1010091.jpg) Did you know universities (the Ivy Leagues in our country), hospitals, and women's rights were initially brought to the light of day by Christians? The Church, here on earth, will never be perfect because of it's members, but that does not render false the message of it's Cornerstone, Jesus Christ. It only proves that His message concerning us two millennia ago was needed and exactly right. George, you make a good argument for the utility of the Christian Faith, but utility does not equate with truth. But in claiming the good, you must also claim the bad. It was Christians women who ushered in Prohibition in 1918 while our boys were away fighting WWI. This lead to the Gangster era, and the corruption of local governments in places Chicago. It's this corrupt machine that gave us Barrack Obama, so by extension, good intentioned Christians own the election of Barrack Obama to the Presidency. Further more, the missionaries in Africa are notorious for the opposition to birth control, specifically in the form of condoms. Do we really need to spread more over population and Aids and poverty across the Dark Continent?"
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yes, for you too, for no misguided belief will allow you to escape the consequence of a Arab/Israeli nuclear exchange.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an instruction manual for proving God's existence.
WTF do you not understand about rainbows? Travis I understand that rainbows are the result of light refracted through raindrops. There is not need for a god to explain this phenomenon. Yep, easily explained by the laws of physics God ordained or by the luck of a molecular alignment by happenstance a trillion times less likely than drawing the lucky lotto power ball number, but that's where the educated place their bet, huh? Not so bud, I have seen hundreds of double and single rainbows. Haven't seen the winning power ball number yet. So your algorithim must be flawed.  Antelope Sniper, you do debate well. My compliments Sir.
Swifty
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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3 things killing Christianity today
Intellectualism
Feminism
Homosexuality
Yes, and add organized "religion."
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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To the OP's original question; What's wrong with the Church?
What's wrong is that the church (many of the mainline churches) has moved away from the people, not vice/versa. They have begun preaching and publically acting for political correctness and have drifted far from The Word. The, so called, Peacemakers and Compromisers abound.
Lots of loose use of the word "Christians" here, in the thread. I'd submit there are Christians and then there are Chrinos, much like RINOs. We all fall short of the glory.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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3 things killing Christianity today
Intellectualism
Feminism
Homosexuality
True, but you forgot a few. Among them, cultural accommodation. Steve. You can also add science. Yep, the same science which pushes global warming.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Swifty, I thank God for and take solace in the fact you don't agree with me.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Without God, there is no reason for truth, honesty, justice, family, sportsmanship, decency, or humanity. What use is there for one animal to feel superior to another. We would all be but flesh, and the only law would be that of the jungle.
Last edited by eyeball; 07/15/14.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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It is interesting to me that nowhere in the Bible is there an instruction manual for proving God's existence.
WTF do you not understand about rainbows? Travis I understand that rainbows are the result of light refracted through raindrops. There is not need for a god to explain this phenomenon. Yep, easily explained by the laws of physics God ordained or by the luck of a molecular alignment by happenstance a trillion times less likely than drawing the lucky lotto power ball number, but that's where the educated place their bet, huh? I've heard it presented that the odds of one complex organism evolving by the process of natural selection as currently described by "science" as one in one billion trillion. That seems fairly unlikely to me but I is just a hick. I have also in my life seen a lot of scientific "facts" be later exposed as BS. I have also seen brilliant people be stunningly, astoundingly wrong about real important stuff. But they have probably got this evolution thing nailed.
Last edited by RJY66; 07/15/14.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The problem is that the guy needs to research his statistics. Divorce rate is about 11% for churched folks. Much higher for unchurched folks.
The statistic that says that "christians" have a 50% divorce rate, the same as non-christians, is a lie. You're right: Yet research found in Christians Are Hate-Filled Hypocrites... and Other Lies You've Been Told, shows that couples who are active in their faith are much less likely to divorce. Catholic couples were 31% less likely to divorce; Protestant couples 35% less likely; and Jewish couples 97% less likely, which in itself is quite impressive, I must say. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ed...-what-do-stats-say-and-c.html?paging=off
We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?
Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Not ifin u seen two wrainbows.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I debate because I love my nation, the evidence does not support your position, and your position is potentially harmful to this nation, and consequently it can affect me and my children.
I choose to believe in God and therefore I am am potentially harmful to this nation. How? It did not harm the nation I served for 24 years and am permanently disabled because of that service. I prayed with my wife today in the privacy of my home and I did not notice it harming any other person or the nation. If I choose to tithe some of my money to a food bank how does that harm the nation. Your views on faith do not offend me in any way but your statement above does.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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How can I appreciate the joy of Paradise without having experienced being there? So those of the flesh can not know the pleasure of having passed to live in the spirit without having experienced it.
It's like there is no way to know the feeling of having made love to a love while one is still a virgin.
Last edited by eyeball; 07/15/14.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Yep and the presence of those laws (and your certainty that they may be relied upon) all point to the existence of some author; perhaps not directly to the God of Christianity, but at least to some uncaused first cause. Not at all. By presupposing a creator, all you've done is fall into the infinite regression of creator creators, and in the process you have explained nothing. There is NO proof, non whatsoever. As a Christian I am fine with that and understand it. God did not leave clear cut proof because He wanted people to come to Him by faith. This is my belief. You are entitled to disagree. It does not bother me one bit if you believe I am wrong just as it should not bother you that I believe you are wrong. There is no way to settle this in this life. I would like to point out that if you are right and I am wrong neither us us has been hurt. I have just lived my life trying to live by a creed that was false. I did not hurt one single person by my beliefs. If however I am right and you are wrong the consequences would be different. You will never change my mind and I will never attempt to beat my beliefs into you. I am willing to let go and chalk it up as something we may never agree on and get on with living life. Are you willing to do the same? Scott, I enjoy the pursuit of truth and, if I have the time available, will not shrink from these debates when offered. Despite the fact that we disagree on this one proposition, there is probably very little else where we significantly disagree. I respect how you live by your principle and use your land to teach and benefit other. I've always considered you well intentioned, however, I find it interesting that you inadvertently quoted the Church's justification for burning Heretics at the stake. Yours is an interesting twist on Pascals Wager. Instead of threatening the eternal soul of the non-believer, you beg them to self-sensor out of fear they may cause someone to become an apostate and serve an eternity in Hell. It was for this theological reason the Catholic Church burned Heretics. So are you sure your belief that non-believers speaking their mind is harmful has never harmed anyone?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I debate because I love my nation, the evidence does not support your position, and your position is potentially harmful to this nation, and consequently it can affect me and my children.
I choose to believe in God and therefore I am am potentially harmful to this nation. How? It did not harm the nation I served for 24 years and am permanently disabled because of that service. I prayed with my wife today in the privacy of my home and I did not notice it harming any other person or the nation. If I choose to tithe some of my money to a food bank how does that harm the nation. Your views on faith do not offend me in any way but your statement above does. Scott, I do not believe you fall into my category of Dogmatic Theologist. I don't recall you ever arguing in favor of any of the specific items I find objectionable such as young earth creationism and teaching theology in place of science in our schools. As I mentioned above, your actions appear to speak loudly, and I've harbored nothing but respect for you.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Seems to me, if anything, an argument could be made that after God got kicked out of the public schools, the kids got dumber....not the other way around. Don't know if reason got abandoned but math sure did.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
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