Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire NY State Trooper in a jam... fatally shoots ATV driver.

There were two troopers. Tracking dogs only follow human scent, not ATV scent.

In any event, it takes HOURS to get tracking dogs on the scene in rural locations.

When did F. Lee become a prosecutor?

I check this thread every couple hours just to see what level its sunk to. Very entertaining. I'm leaving now for a long 5 day weekend - see if you guys can keep it up till next Wednesday. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This thread has interested me greatly. Like most of you I can see where there is just not enough information to get a clear judgement.

IF the officer held on, was able to survuve by letting go, or otherwise able to detain the man what would happen?

IF the officer was entangled in the ATV, gave multiple commands to stop, and thusly felt that the driver had no intention of stopping, concluding in the shooting what would happen?

The only thing I haven't really enjoyed throughout the whole deal is GeneL's snide, immature, and generally demeaning insults to everyone here, including Barak and his Lovely wife.

Methinks that most of this stems from jealousy and insecurity. My father, grandfather, and a number of my uncles on all sides of the family have always told me that a man that pokes fun of another man and what he has us usually

A = Jealous
B - Insecure about his "manparts" and his ability to get them to function properly.

Thusly he feels the need to poke fun at people hopefully demeaning them enough to make him feel better about his insecurities

Andrew

There WHO goes again..??

I just went back and checked all of 2ndwind's posts on this thread and he's got nothing posted that puts him in the middle of your arguing. He's just making the point I have tried to make twice already. A point you lawyers and cops are ignoring, that there is another defining aspect to this shooting. Not just a cop shooting a traffic violator.

.280, you say your lacking facts, . ...well, seems to me all of you are willing to not see some of what IS in front of you. True facts are hard to come by here, but, we do have reported circumstances.....albeit speculative circumstances.

This has been a good discussion and something positive will come of it. Maybe the next time we get pulled over by the police we will have this case and this discussion cross our minds. Hopefully in the end, we will know what to do so we don't get shot.

Just so ya'll can know the manhunt for the "cop shooter" is definately in serious mode and does have the Troopers wound up tight here's what happened today....

manhunt for Bucky Phillips

Make note of the part about shots fired and the police aren't commenting.....

The Whole Story



OK, the guy's a bad apple, but you have to admire his sense of irony... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well lets just shoot em all by gawd,,,,,no helmet kaboom,,,,,DUI kaboom kaboom,,,,ya I'll shoot twice on that one. Running from a traffic stop? Better lead him he will be moving on.

Welcome to the 280 sheit list Gene,, I'm one eyed, half witted and to emotional to deal with issues in a clear manor because I want to slam dunk first time DUI offenders,,,,,how do ya feel about them Gene,,,?

If the trooper was not entangled in the ATV he may have problems,,,,hope not,,,anyone who would drag another person for a long distance deserves to get shot in my book,,,Lets look at it this way for a change,,,how did the dimwit driving the atv NOT know that the trooper was entangled???? As far as the driver knew he was dragging an officer,, that�s probability all he knew but drag him he did. How many of you would keep on going if you ran from a traffic stop and the trooper just happened to get hooked on the rear bumper of your ride???? Seems like some figure it�s your right to just keep on truckin. Never mind the fact that the atv did attempt to evade a legal stop,,,,,

You hit the nail right on the head with the man-parts thing.

I've never seen a picture of either barak or his lovely wife. So, you're wrong about that.

Glad you're being entertained, though. That's what the board is all about!

Why do you need to see a picture.

Are you that shallow? A woman doesn't have to be drop dead georgeous to be lovely


Andrew

+1

I learned all I needed to know about barak when he defended and said he befriended child molesters. Salt of the earth, those.

That is much better than a photograph. It shows an ugly soul.

?????????
It's a prison ministry , for crying out loud!!!!!!

Good evening,
I mine as well open my soup cooler on this one. I've been a Deputy Sheriff for 16 plus years now...I say that not to impress anybody, but to let you know that I have some experience/knowledge in this field. But first, I'll come clean...I too have a flat top/crewcut...but that is about the best style I can come up with given my sparsely populated noggin. I don't style my hair as much as I arrange it. I also have a mustache...their departmental issued. And while my dangly bits still work, they are not of Pope and Young proportions...typical or non-typical. Not even minimum book. So to any potential insulters out there, you'll need some new fodder. Donut insults are always a good failsafe!

That out of the way, first off...Barak...wazzup dude! We will disagree on most everthing, but we can agree that the helmet law is stupid, but there is a helmet law. And as such, we can stop people when they violate it. The stop is not in question.

These are some hypotheticals based on what little we know about this incident.

If this cop new that the kid on the ATV was not Bucky Badass, and held onto the ATV when he tried to escape, wouldn't let go, and then shot him...he's in the soup. Personally, I have tremendous sense of self preservation, and would have let go...get in the car and chase him.

If somehow this officer became insnarled in the ATV, didn't know if the driver was Bucky Badass or Mother Theresa, couldn't get out, was in fear for his safety (state of mind) and the driver didn't stop... probably gonna me justifiable...it is in my mind. Somebody gonna pay some money, though.

Now...what if cop thinks its Bucky Badass? This is the whole state of mind thang. So he thinks he got Bucky. Bucky is an escaped convict who has already shot one cop, and is reported to be in the area. It's reasonable to assume that Bucky has a gun based on the above. Bucky tries to flee via ATV...giving further credence to cop that this is Bucky. Cop latches on to ATV in an attempt to apprehend Bucky. Bucky don't stop. Cop does not have a duty to retreat. Reasonable to assume that since Bucky has already shot a cop, that he's not above shooting anybody else. Cop shoots Bucky...only it wasn't Bucky. And all of this happens fairly quickly. Given the above, justifiable shooting. Tragic? Absolutely. The family will get some money...but some things don't have a price. Real good chance the cop has some major issues with it, too. Good chance he retires and/or eats his gun.

But...as been stated on this thread several times, until we know all the facts, we really don't know. But we do know these things: The kid doesn't run from the cops, the chances are REAL good in doesn't get shot by the cops (Save it Barak! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />) And...the whole thing is tragic, and it sucks.

On a lighter note, Baraks wife is a lovely lady...and well armed to boot!

You and I are arguing past each other on this issue. I didn't really emphasize it with Gene L, but I figure you probably have the intellectual horsepower to understand and argue intelligently.

There's a difference between morality and law; frequently a big difference, and I can prove it--but that's for another day. The law says you can stop somebody who's not wearing a helmet; however, morally that amounts to an initiation of force and justifies an application of retaliatory force. (Of course, as Penny and I were discussing this morning, the mere fact that something is justified doesn't mean that it's necessarily desirable or prudent; just that it's not wrong.)

The law also says you can stop somebody running out of a bank with a bag of money with alarm bells ringing in the background. In that case, the bank robber took care of initiating the force, and you're the one whose retaliatory force is morally justified.

As you've probably guessed, if you haven't directly witnessed, I don't have much respect for or interest in the law, so I don't frequently get embroiled in discussions of it. I'm much more interested in being a moral person than I am in being a law-abiding person, so most of my arguments are aimed in that direction.


If you have me pegged as a cop-hater, stick around for a bit and observe a little more. I'm not a cop-hater, believe me, even though it's a common first impression. I just want a cop who works for me, rather than for the State, and I want to be able to hire whomever I want, and pay him whatever the market will bear, and fire him whenever I want for any reason or no reason. Like a landscaper, kind of.


That she is. Thank you for sticking up for my woman.

A new addition to my ignore list has been made tonight. Barak makes plenty of posts that leave me shaking my head, but "an ugly soul" uh, no. BTW,

Common definitions of projection:

* "Projection is the opposite defence mechanism to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have."

* "A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."

* "Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies, e.g. a man who has promiscuous impulses attributes those impulses to others."

* "The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest."

* "A man harboring attractions for a woman would perceive other men has having the same attractions for her."

* "People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others. An individual who unconsciously harbours his or her aggressive/sexual tendencies may then imagine other people acting in an excessively aggressive or sexual way."

* "An individual who possesses malicious characteristics, but who is unwilling to perceive himself as an antagonist, convinces himself that his opponent feels and would act the same way."

Barak,
Thought I would come over and argue with you on this thread for a while <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Is one still a moral person even if he is not a law abiding one? I think not, but would like to hear your take on it.

And no, I haven't really thought of you as a cop hater. If you are, cool. If not, cool. Nothing I could ever say or do would change your mind. And in the end, I go to bed at night (if my bulldog lets me). However, just a bit of advice...when dealing with cops, fake the whole law abiding thing. Your fun to have around, and would hate to see you get all morality based retalitory with Officer Cro-Magnon and take a flashlight upside the head! Definitely not prudent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Can I go to bed now, Barak?
Justin

There are laws that it's immoral to break, but there are a number that it's not, and even some that it's immoral to obey.

You can probably find several pretty long threads here if you search on "law" and "morality," but the basic idea is that morality consists of voluntarily choosing behaviors that may well not be in your immediate or long-term best interest in an attempt to measure up to an abstract standard; being law-abiding consists of acting in self-preservation under threat to avoid a concrete penalty. Where you have morality, law is unnecessary; where you have law, morality is corroded by it. (Like this: if prostitution is illegal where you live, then you probably don't hire prostitutes. Why not? Is it because it's illegal, or because you think it's wrong and want to do the right thing? You may think the latter, but as long as it's illegal, there's no way to prove it's not the former, and if you look deep enough inside yourself you may even become unsure yourself. If it's legal and you don't do it, the reason is obvious.)


Oh, I've taken more than a flashlight up the side of the head, and not because I was retaliating, either. Thanks for the compliment. There are a couple or three threads here detailing encounters I've had with the police, too. As I said, it's not a positive thing.

2ndwind,

Nothing truer has been said. Some of the guys I worked with at the PD who were running around on their wives, were at the same time the most insanely jealous human beings about their wives that I ever saw.

My wife says her ex husband would just show up at her jobs unannounced, make her call from work on the work phones instead of a cell phone, and try to get her to quit jobs if he perceived someone there had an attraction to her. Yet in the end, it was he that broke up their marriage by contracting Hepatitus thru 100s of homosexual liasons and affairs. She thanks God daily that she was vaccinated.

GeneL,

Barak and his wife are in prison ministry. Jesus was a friend to sinners. ALL sinners! I don't think Barak said anywhere that he condoned child molestation, but he said he can see the humanity in those that have committed such crimes. The Bible I read, and the God and his Son that I believe in say that all sin, save turning away from God, is forgivable. While I don't think those people need to be loosed on society, they can repent their sins, and you don't have to forgive them...Jesus already has if they've asked for it.

Barak's political ideologies disagreeable? Yeah, but some of mine are too. An ugly soul? Not one that would take their own time to minister to the people that most consider throw away people.

Some judges I know are hardasses...crime A gets B sentence. Some are more judicious and compassionate and actually look at all the circumstances, and the defendant's background in deciding what sentence to give within the legal range. I have one judge that grants Youthful Offender status to 90% or more of those who qualify for almost any crime but murder. I have another that asks our office to file an objection to Y.O. on every defendant that is of the proper age for Y.O. and he grants it to far fewer. He's also a friend of mine, but I disagree with that. I used to be like some of the officers here, and look at everything black and white, and be very "put 'em all in jail and throw away the key." "Hang 'em high". It wasn't law school that changed me...it was police work. Dealing with people face to face made them people. Dealing with concepts of Law and Order makes it easy to view "groups" as throw away people. Look a human being in the eye when he's about to go to prison, and his family in the courtroom. Put cuffs on a guy that had one too many beers and drove home and the realization hits him that he not only has legal problems but his company policy says the arrest alone will cost him his career, and that in turn may cost him a divorce. He may deserve it all or he may not deserve it all, but its my job to deal with them there, but there is a bit of christian humanity in me that has some compassion for him and his and his family's impending ordeal. You're the one with the ugly soul if you can't be moved by watching a wife and young daughter's beg a judge not to send their husband/father to jail, then look at their faces when he gets 20 years and 1 day. (in AL any sentence over 20 years cuts out good time and is served almost day for day). And then further humiliation when the judge says the harsheness of the punishment is because he refused to take the deal that would have had him out in 3 years, but the defendant chose to exercise his right to trial and "burdened the state". Which says basically: "Yeah, you got rights...sure you do...exercise them...go on, I dare you!"

If compassion makes one an ugly soul, count me as another ugly soul.

If this cop murdered this man over a traffic violation, Id have the same compassion for him and his family, and hope that a prison ministry like Barak's would tend to his soul in prison. If he was inadvertantly caught on this ATV and dragged, and I was in a position to do so, Id see to it he wasn't indicted for any crime.

Thanks for sticking up for us, .280Rem. (And Savage2005, and castandblast, and 2ndwind.) However, the fact is that Penny and I have been around here long enough for everyone who's interested to form his own reasonably firm opinion of whether our souls are ugly. A person of Gene L's caliber is not going to be able to change that one way or another--all he can do is give us a look at what his own soul is like. So the defense is unnecessary; but it's still appreciated.

Plus, there's the fact that I kind of left that out there on purpose for him to step in, to see whether he was the kind of person I was beginning to suspect he was. Set him up, you might say. So it'd be silly for me to object to being taken out of context and misrepresented when I was specifically experimenting to see if he would do that.