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...Which is why I've booked a visit to Thunder Ranch in November, for Clint's Defensive Revolver class�. �.Doc, I and an old (emphasis on "old") Marine Corps buddy signed up to take that Nov class 3 months ago�..there's a very good chance that our mutual friend, Rick S. is going to be one of the instructors. PM me, I'm curious as to what you're going to shoot-----getting reasonably priced lead-free ammo is a PIA! Greg
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
The .357 was well known as a decisive fight stopper for many years, even before the advent of really good handgun bullets. I'd wager ET is right, the blast at close range adds to the psychological trauma of the bad guy. Granted a crazy guy or a druggie may not care. So maybe we should compromise on a 10mm 1911  9 rounds of 155's at 1400 fps 
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
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...if one were to actuallyget into a situation where shooting would be absolutely necessary, it will be CLOSE,3'-5',low light and extremely fast with maybe 2 rounds fired� 34 years ago (1980 IIRC) I was having lunch with Tommy Campbell when he worked for S&W�he was doing a demo for us on the virtues of the da/sa, high cap auto for police work�..I quoted the FBI Uniform Crime Report stats to him (they were in those days very close to the figures that you quoted) and mentioned that I just didn't see the need for high-cap. HIs response was, "never forget that 'averages' are made up of extremes." That's true for LE, Military and Civilians�.there are probably 40 "ballistic exchanges" that comprised 1 total cartridge expended for every one that took 20 rounds��someone on this site once said about bear attacks, "99 out of 100 times a bear will leave you alone, the problem is that they don't come in numerical order." I may be wrong ET, but I think that the same is true of civilian encounters. The shop keepers in St. Louis right now would have undoubtedly felt quite well protected with a 5-shot J frame a week ago. The victims of the "knock out game" where small "clusters" of douche bags attack at random won't take solace in the "average" stats either. I'm not trying to be contentious, I just think that it's not a good idea for me to base "probabilities" on totally random statistics and acts. ...That terrible blast, and report are in my dirty trick toolkit. I KNOW it is coming...That earsplitting report, flash and blast will severely alter anyone's sense of reality and if it is directed AT you has a 125 grain bullet in the middle for you. I win. I don't doubt that you're younger, stronger, more accurate and all around a better man than I, but the "earsplitting report, flash and blast" are all equal opportunity detractors and distractors�..at least they have been for me even when I know that they're coming. Again, I'm not trying to be contentious, just the opinion of an old guy�..of course, I could be wrong. :-) I'm 65. Hardly a spring chicken. FBI stats are just that stats. Persoanl observations after 24 years on the street,DEFENSIVE civil shootings are much closer than what Lawmen usually get. Muzzle blast definitely affects anyone around. MUCH worse in FRONT. Same same the report. Directional hazard. It is also very much pure physical force. Very hot gas and particles being blown at high velocity towards a target. It HAS a very harsh effect. Not to be trifled with. added:the shopkeepers in Mo. KNOW when a rifle is the appropriate weapon. Everyday folks really don't want to be encumbered by carrying a long gun arond all the time.
Last edited by EvilTwin; 08/13/14.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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As a matter of interest I was ambushed on duty by a cranked out meth cook. His first shot at me was from about four yards with a 3" magnum .12 gauge. This took place about 1:15 a.m. in a very dark area. I saw the bad guy for just a second before he snapped the shotgun up and fired at me from the hip. My perception of that .12 gauge shot from 12' feet sounded like the smallest muted little "pop". Nothing like you would imagine. Others may differ but that has been my own experience in a couple of different situations. Shots that would ring and pop your ears on the range without hearing protection were barely audible in critical situations. Think it is called "auditory exclusion?"
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2005
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It would seem to me that ET's got a point on the muzzle blast. I've had a couple of J-frames 1 7/8" and a N-frame 2 3/4" and the blast bothered me even when wearing hearing protection. I decided to move to 4" as a min because I just didn't enjoy shooting the shorter barrels...if I don't shoot it enough, I don't need to be carrying it. No argument against the effectiveness...I just have sissy ears.
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Joined: May 2004
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2004
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I have a Colt Magnum Carry in 357 that I load with Remington medium velocity 125gr Golden Sabres, about 1100 fps. The equavelent sized Sig P239 in 9mm with Speer 124gr +P Gold Dots, about 1150 fps gives me 3 more shots and much quicker reloads. Of course the Colt fits better in a pocket.
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Joined: May 2010
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
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I don't doubt that you're younger, stronger, more accurate and all around a better man than I� ...I'm 65. Hardly a spring chicken... �..you're right, I guess that you'll have to just do with being "stronger, more accurate and all around�.better�" but hey, 3 out of 4 ain't bad.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Joined: Mar 2014
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Joined: Mar 2014
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Doc, I'm sorry, but I don't agree that "when the SHTF, you can't count rounds, only engagements."
I've known far too many shootings/gunfights where the good guy ran out of ammo long before he got the job done. LAPD's analysis of their street shootings found only two factors as to who wins in a gunfight. He who shoots first, wins 50% of the time.... and the guy with a loaded gun when the other guy runs out wins.
That makes a case for high capacity magazines. But, more important, the guy that aims each shot, and makes it count, tends to win far more often than the guy that simply keeps shooting as fast as possible.
As far as multiple opponents, I'm of the opinion that all I can afford is one solid hit on each of them. If I can manage that, I might have a chance. Shooting each one, in turn, 3-5 times, simply takes too long, time I don't have.
Hopefully the other bad guys would not be focused on me. But I suspect I'd realize I was out matched and seek cover if possible rather than try to engage such odds. E
Last edited by Oheremicus; 08/13/14.
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Campfire Outfitter
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The .357 in a snub is just not my idea of a defense gun. Recoil is severe, muzzle flash is just plain out of control, and the SOUND! Regarding the OP's 9mm vs. .357 Mag - 40 fps difference in MV, same weight, 0.002" difference in diameter, there will be little if any difference.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Jun 2013
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 33 |
I would generally agree that as for a platform to fight with, give me the G19 over the revolver for higher capacity and faster reloads, every time. The issue here is that the Underwood load in question has to have some sky high pressures.
Of course comparing a really hot 9mm (so hot it's essentially identical to factory 357 Sig 125gr) to a typical .357 isn't totally fair. I don't have either caliber anymore, but I did chrono test some 9mm in a G19 and some .357 from a 3" SP101 Ruger when I had them.
Factory 9mm 124gr +P Golden Sabres hovered around 1175-1180 fps while the 125gr .357 Mag Golden Sabre was around 1225, but is admittedly a lower recoil load. Remington 125gr JSP kept right around 1450 fps from the 3" SP101, and that's "factory" full power so something from Underwood or Buffalo Bore would go even faster still.
With that said, even though the 125gr .357 Mag is more powerful, to me if the job can't be done with a well placed 9mm 124gr doing 1175-1200 fps then it's quite possible the .357 wouldn't either. Either one is plenty effective against 2 legged threats, but I'm not a big fan of the idea that simply throwing a little bit more velocity at the situation is the be all end all. And really, some get so involved in speed they don't realize that you can shoot a bullet too fast, which means sometimes slower really is better.
Last edited by 45BBH; 08/13/14.
Glocks and Single Actions!
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Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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Soooo... if you're carrying a 1911, that means you've likely got the means to solve 2 tactical engagements with your blaster before you need to reload. If you're carrying at Glock 19, you're going to have the ability to solve 3-4 tactical engagements before you need to reload. Let's throw another Monkey in the Wrench. No one has ever counted rounds fired in a gunfight to the best of my knowledge. You're under the Tachy-Psych effect, you tend to tunnel vision in on the threat, and a lot of the purposeful thoughts and motions you do at the range are lost. So since you're probably a bit tunnel visioned in on the threat, chances are if the pistol were to jam on the last round you fired, you really wouldn't know it because you're looking at the threat, not your gun. Nor do you know how many rounds of ammo you have in your blaster. So with that in mind, regardless of magazine capacity or which gun you carry, wouldn't it make sense to immediately reload, AND rack the slide at the first opportunity you have? That way for the next engagement, you're 100% sure you have a fully loaded, fully functional pistol.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,901 Likes: 47 |
How did cops manage to survive any encounters for the hundred plus years they were carrying six shot, double action, revolvers?
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,700 Likes: 3 |
More than once, I have heard Gunner say, "There is a reason we don't fight wars with trapdoor springfields anymore."
I suspect that is true.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them."
-Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
How did cops manage to survive any encounters for the hundred plus years they were carrying six shot, double action, revolvers? Most criminals are even worse shots than most cops. Statistics are really a terrible thing because one can conclude that all shooting scenarios are fairly similar. I'd venture that most times police men are killed in the line of duty they were ambushed and the weapon they carried played no part in the results of the shooting. Then again the two rules of gunfights are: 1) Avoid them at all cost 2) Put everything possible in your favor.
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Posts: 46,268 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,268 Likes: 2 |
More than once, I have heard Gunner say, "There is a reason we don't fight wars with trapdoor springfields anymore."
I suspect that is true.
That being said my friend, someone being rush mugged in the city where you may have thug/s piled on top of you trying to relieve you of your posessions, a revolver will fire repeated shots [FROM] and through a coat pocket, any semi auto 'will not' You will lose the hair on your hand doing so , but it's nice to know the little heaters will bark even if you cant get them drawn. Also, a 2" barreled snub will trump any 4/5" barreled semi auto on getting unholstered and into hot play.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,346 Likes: 1 |
being ignorant about such things I just carry what my neighbor the policeman carries, a Glock 19.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
More than once, I have heard Gunner say, "There is a reason we don't fight wars with trapdoor springfields anymore."
I suspect that is true.
That being said my friend, someone being rush mugged in the city where you may have thug/s piled on top of you trying to relieve you of your posessions, a revolver will fire repeated shots [FROM] and through a coat pocket, any semi auto 'will not' You will lose the hair on your hands doing so , but it's nice to know the little heaters will bark even if you cant get them drawn. Also, a 2" barreled snub will trump any 4/5" barreled semi auto on getting unholstered and into hot play. This sounds like the voice of experience. Care to tell?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Outfitter
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big un' glock 19 is where it's at
FJB
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,268 Likes: 2 |
Sure, I added another step to the instinctive shooting techniques with a revolver ET told me about, and showed me firsthand at the pig hunt. I went and dug out an old coat and fired my 4" Colt Trooper from the pocket, first shot was quite the surprise, as imagined, a lot of heat going on in there, and it felt like someone was swatting me in the hip with a straw broom, hellacious blast. As in any situation, surprises dont need to be there, I hit the silhouette target at 5 yards, and went on to empty the revolver into the target in said fashion.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,268 Likes: 2 |
JP and Bobby, there are of course many fine choices, a damn near fail-safe double action revolver cant be denied for sheer speed and reliability in most any situation up close.
Trump Won!
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