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I think you are completely missing the point.
The guide was experienced, and knew the law. The hunter was very experienced, and should have known the law. Shooting before six hours after landing in a plane IS poaching.
As for the waste meat, certainly the hunter must have wondered about leaving close to 1000 pounds of edible meat behind, and should have asked the question if he did not know.
This is not a special law for guided non-residents. Same law for anyone who hunts in the Yukon. Same rules for everybody!
If you can afford to go on a guided hunt for tens of thousands of dollars, you can certainly afford to bring out the meat!
Why do you think the fines are excessive? What do you think would have been appropriate?
Ted
Exactly this is poaching and we dont need that over here and i think it didnt go deep enough on that case. they should have no choice to come here for their trial too. Game convictions should be on inter-provincial-territorial-state files and no one should be allowed to hunt or guiding after the conviction for the time said all over ....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I think you are completely missing the point.
The guide was experienced, and knew the law. The hunter was very experienced, and should have known the law. Shooting before six hours after landing in a plane IS poaching.
As for the waste meat, certainly the hunter must have wondered about leaving close to 1000 pounds of edible meat behind, and should have asked the question if he did not know.
This is not a special law for guided non-residents. Same law for anyone who hunts in the Yukon. Same rules for everybody!
If you can afford to go on a guided hunt for tens of thousands of dollars, you can certainly afford to bring out the meat!
Why do you think the fines are excessive? What do you think would have been appropriate?
Ted
Yukoner unfortunately for some breaking the law just a little bit is OK until they get caught. If you hunt in another state or country it is up to the hunter to know the law.
Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
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Campfire Ranger
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IMO, guided hunts are just that... guided. The hunter needs to know absolutely nothing about local laws, game, etc.
The buck stops at the guide. I guide a lot of trips all summer. Not one of my clients has ever known the laws. They do exactly as I say and they don't question it.
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Campfire Ranger
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IMO, guided hunts are just that... guided. The hunter needs to know absolutely nothing about local laws, game, etc.
The buck stops at the guide. I guide a lot of trips all summer. Not one of my clients has ever known the laws. They do exactly as I say and they don't question it. It's hard to imagine why anyone would want to put themselves at the mercy of the laws but rely on another person to determine what they are. "Ignorance is no excuse" is one of the first things you see in the fish/game law synopsis (in Alaska).
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
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IMO, guided hunts are just that... guided. The hunter needs to know absolutely nothing about local laws, game, etc.
The buck stops at the guide. I guide a lot of trips all summer. Not one of my clients has ever known the laws. They do exactly as I say and they don't question it. Good Morning, Calvin. Sorry, but I do not understand that at all. Are you saying that in Alaska, if you guide a hunter or fisherman, and break the laws as was done in this case, all the client has to tell the judge is that he was following your orders, and he gets off? This was not a mistake that occurred in the field. These guys flagrantly and intentionally broke the law! Ted
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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IMO, guided hunts are just that... guided. The hunter needs to know absolutely nothing about local laws, game, etc.
The buck stops at the guide. I guide a lot of trips all summer. Not one of my clients has ever known the laws. They do exactly as I say and they don't question it. We will have to just agree to disagree then. Responsibility starts within not with the other person IMHO.
Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
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like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are asresponsible as the guide for their actions.
the guide can intentionally misleading and in that case that is a different story but the hunter in that case can't be so innocent and naive without asking questions ... i may add in that case that the guide was caught in Yukon but he already had fines in BC and more than once ... a shame there is no one juridiction for at least whole Canada ...
those guys didnt even show up in court ... and the lawyers were over the phone ...
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Campfire Ranger
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As with any crime, ignorance of the law is no excuse. That is about all you need to know before walking into court.
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Campfire Ranger
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like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are as responsible as the guide for their actions.
No way. Not even close. A "guide" is just that.. A "guide". They call the shot on everything. That's why people hire guides. The buck always should stop at the guide. In AK, they are responsible for making sure the client follows the letter of the law. If I get boarded and I have 15 violation, I will get all 15, my clients will walk away. End of story.
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well Alaska is different than Yukon on that like on others stuff ...
if for any reason one of your client is out of law: like shooting a 49 inches bull moose on a 50 inches area despite you saying no, he pretends at the court you didnt say anything and he is still clear ...
Calvin people are hiring guide because of the law not because they like us lol ... and i still dont understand why people can in Alaska hunt a moose or even a caribou without a guide ....
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no more pro staff seems ...
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are as responsible as the guide for their actions.
No way. Not even close. A "guide" is just that.. A "guide". They call the shot on everything. That's why people hire guides. The buck always should stop at the guide. In AK, they are responsible for making sure the client follows the letter of the law. If I get boarded and I have 15 violation, I will get all 15, my clients will walk away. End of story. Ok Calvin you can be the big bad tough guy...
Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Actually poaching would be shooting game without a license, out of season or on private property without permission. I would think handling the meat would be the guides responsibility. If I were hunting in another country with a guide and he allowed me to get in that much trouble I would sue his a$$ into the ground. I somehow believe something is missing from this story.
Dog I rescued in January
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are as responsible as the guide for their actions.
No way. Not even close. A "guide" is just that.. A "guide". They call the shot on everything. That's why people hire guides. The buck always should stop at the guide. In AK, they are responsible for making sure the client follows the letter of the law. If I get boarded and I have 15 violation, I will get all 15, my clients will walk away. End of story. There are many other ways by whiich "guide" is defined. Certainly there are some specifics which a guide holds sole/ultimate responsibility for; they must know the laws as they apply but that in no way means that only they need be aware of them. If a guide encourages a client to cross the line; that's on both of them. If a guide allows a client to fudge the law; that's on both of them. If a client simply refuses to follow a directive; that's on the client. A client who needs a guide to know what the laws say is a hunter in need of a babysitter. (The hunter should know size requirements for example; the value of a good guide is knowing what a certain value actually is without putting a tape to the animal.)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are as responsible as the guide for their actions.
No way. Not even close. A "guide" is just that.. A "guide". They call the shot on everything. That's why people hire guides. The buck always should stop at the guide. In AK, they are responsible for making sure the client follows the letter of the law. If I get boarded and I have 15 violation, I will get all 15, my clients will walk away. End of story. Ok Calvin you can be the big bad tough guy... As usual, you don't have a f-ing clue as to what you are talking about.
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Joined: Sep 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are as responsible as the guide for their actions.
No way. Not even close. A "guide" is just that.. A "guide". They call the shot on everything. That's why people hire guides. The buck always should stop at the guide. In AK, they are responsible for making sure the client follows the letter of the law. If I get boarded and I have 15 violation, I will get all 15, my clients will walk away. End of story. There are many other ways by whiich "guide" is defined. Certainly there are some specifics which a guide holds sole/ultimate responsibility for; they must know the laws as they apply but that in no way means that only they need be aware of them. If a guide encourages a client to cross the line; that's on both of them. If a guide allows a client to fudge the law; that's on both of them. If a client simply refuses to follow a directive; that's on the client. A client who needs a guide to know what the laws say is a hunter in need of a babysitter. (The hunter should know size requirements for example; the value of a good guide is knowing what a certain value actually is without putting a tape to the animal.) I'm not home right now, otherwise I'd post the reg, but I don't have my paperwork. It plainly states that the guide is responsible for making sure that client follows all laws, and does all the paperwork. To the best of my recollection, I cannot think of 1 case were the clients gets a ticket, in a guided case. It's always the guide, even on the filling out the back of licenses, etc. Guided in the outdoors is just that.. guided. I've never had a client know the laws in AK. The laws are complex, they change, and they rely on the guide to "guide" them. I've had over a thousand type A personalities on my boat, and I've never had 1 of them dare not follow one of my directions. If a guide can't control his clients, he's in the wrong business.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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IMO, guided hunts are just that... guided. The hunter needs to know absolutely nothing about local laws, game, etc.
The buck stops at the guide. I guide a lot of trips all summer. Not one of my clients has ever known the laws. They do exactly as I say and they don't question it. It's hard to imagine why anyone would want to put themselves at the mercy of the laws but rely on another person to determine what they are. "Ignorance is no excuse" is one of the first things you see in the fish/game law synopsis (in Alaska). Go figure, right? I guess every single one of Calvin's clients are fools...
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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Copied and pasted from page 17 of the current Yukon Hunting Regulations synopsis.
"Your Responsibilities as a Guide
These responsibilities apply to all guides, including Yukon residents guiding under a Special Guide Licence.
You must accompany your hunter at all times when hunting. See page 24 for details on what it means to accompany a hunter.
If your hunter commits a violation of the Wildlife Act you must mark the site and report the violation to a Conservation Officer as soon as possible.
You have a reasonable responsibility to ensure that the hunting laws, including those applying to the waste of meat and fur, are followed. See page 30.
You must complete and sign an Outfitter/Chief Guide/Hunter Report within 10 days of the end of the month in which the hunt occurred, whether or not any wildlife was killed. If no hunt occurred, you must still complete and sign the report within 10 days of the end of the month in which the permit expires.
Your Responsibilities as a Guided Non-Resident
You are responsible for following the hunting laws and ensuring that the meat and hide of any animal you kill is not wasted. See page 30.
You will be required to sign a legal document called an Outfitter/Chief Guide/Hunter Report. You should check this form carefully to make sure the information provided by your guide is accurate, including the kill location(s), dates and names of all people who acted as your guide.
If you kill a big game animal you must pay the harvest fee before leaving Yukon or within 10 days of the end of the hunt, whichever occurs first."
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Yukon law is more simple isnt it ....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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like Ted i guided and i can tell you that i had sometimes to tell our hunter(s) what they can or can't do but at the end they are as responsible as the guide for their actions.
No way. Not even close. A "guide" is just that.. A "guide". They call the shot on everything. That's why people hire guides. The buck always should stop at the guide. In AK, they are responsible for making sure the client follows the letter of the law. If I get boarded and I have 15 violation, I will get all 15, my clients will walk away. End of story. There are many other ways by whiich "guide" is defined. Certainly there are some specifics which a guide holds sole/ultimate responsibility for; they must know the laws as they apply but that in no way means that only they need be aware of them. If a guide encourages a client to cross the line; that's on both of them. If a guide allows a client to fudge the law; that's on both of them. If a client simply refuses to follow a directive; that's on the client. A client who needs a guide to know what the laws say is a hunter in need of a babysitter. (The hunter should know size requirements for example; the value of a good guide is knowing what a certain value actually is without putting a tape to the animal.) I'm not home right now, otherwise I'd post the reg, but I don't have my paperwork. It plainly states that the guide is responsible for making sure that client follows all laws, and does all the paperwork. To the best of my recollection, I cannot think of 1 case were the clients gets a ticket, in a guided case. It's always the guide, even on the filling out the back of licenses, etc. Guided in the outdoors is just that.. guided. I've never had a client know the laws in AK. The laws are complex, they change, and they rely on the guide to "guide" them. I've had over a thousand type A personalities on my boat, and I've never had 1 of them dare not follow one of my directions. If a guide can't control his clients, he's in the wrong business. The guide here didn't get the fine ver Case number: AK13061660 Type: Take sublegal sheep Text: On 08/13/13 at approximately 1558hrs, Alaska Wildlife Troopers from Aniak responded to the Big River valley near the community of Stony River for the report of a sublegal dall sheep ram that was taken by a hunter. Investigation revealed that Douglas Leach, age 58 of Morgantown, WV, had harvested a sublegal dall sheep ram earlier that morning while on a guided hunt. Leach was issued a summons with a mandatory court date in Aniak District Court on 08/28/13 at 0915 hrs. Author: TDA0 Received Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:20 AM and posted Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:47 AM
Last edited by 79S; 09/05/14.
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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