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MGib, The only explanation I can come up with as to exploding BTs (big game type) are either the wrong application or a bad lot of bullets. I do have some boxes of the 22cal 40gr BTs (varmint type) from the very first lots Nosler offered to the public. A 30lb bobcat survived 2 shoulder hits and a third hit in the ribs from my 223 using these bullets as they completely fragmented just under the hide when they met muscle tissue. A half hour later I dispatched the very much alive tom with my Ruger 22 rimfire pistol. A good 'ole boy autopsy revealed superficial wounds left by the 40gr BTs with no fragments reaching the vitals. According to Dogzapper, Nosler goofed on that lot as he has killed a ton of 'yotes with the 40gr BT with no problems. I have assassinated quite a few 'yotes with the 50gr BT with no problems whatsoever. Here are two shots of a 7mm 140BT (7-08) that I recovered from a 400lb+ black bear. We actually recovered another bullet - a 30 cal 165grBT (fired from an '06) that was a twin to this one (my friend has that bullet). The bear was wounded due to a poor hit earlier and was trying to make mincement outta of us in some brushy country. Both BTs traveled thru the mid shoulder area and lodged between the hide and fat on the offside rib area IIRC. Both BTs did lose their cores which were only a couple inches from the jacket. This bullet weighs 82.3gr and I did glue the core back in to keep it from getting lost. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/MtnHtr/140grBT82.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/MtnHtr/140grBTMartysBear.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/MtnHtr/Project1.jpg) This was not a case of bad bullet performance, the BTs performed just as they were designed to do although a NP would have been a better choice (I was not planning to shoot a bear on that trip). Another friend killed a twin to this bear a couple years ago using an '06/165BT with no problems and that bear was quartering away. I've killed a few other bears with these same bullets weights & cartridges using NPs with no problems whatsoever. In fact, I have never recovered a NP from any game if that means anything. As for the Nosler 180gr BT, I've heard nothing but glowing reports on 'em since they are supposedly beefy? MtnHtr
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Mark, nope... I'm talking current TSX's. One lot of 168 TSX's group like varmint bullets in my 30-06... different lot sprayed. Micing them the ogive is different... this is from lot's less than a year apart.
Pisses me off... Mac do you still have these bullets? I'd like to get my grubby mits on them and see what you're talking about. As you know I've been loading and shooting the TSX brand in a number of different rifles and in a number of different cals. You work with your 06 and your WSM so those are both 30's and I've not yet given them a go. So I'd love take a look at those slugs if you don't mind Personally with the exception of the 185/338 TSX I've found the TSX brand 22's,6's both the 85 and 95's, the 270 in 110 and 130, the 7 in a 4 weights and the 338's with the 185 exception to all be extremely easy to work with and IMO very forgiving. Oops I almost forgot about the good old 375. Must be a 30 thing, either way round em up and I'll take em off your hand for that 06 T3 I've got a coming. It'll give me some good load development bullets. One last thing this is one of the reason I like to use the Sinclair bullet comparitor for seating slugs instead of using a col without it. The comparitor pretty much takes care of the whole ogive changing thing IME. You gonna go to the Noz for both your rigs now or just the WSM? Lastly one can never go wrong with the good old Nozler, its been giving game the old Nozler nap for a long long time and will continue to do so long after we are gone. IMO it is still the original gold standard of preme bullets. Talk to you in the morn. Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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[Quote] by Mtn Hunter
Both BTs did lose their cores which were only a couple inches from the jacket. This bullet weighs 82.3gr and I did glue the core back in to keep it from getting lost.
This was not a case of bad bullet performance but rather bullet choice. [Quote]
In my book it is bad bullet performance, since there are bullets on the market that will not lose thier cores and allow the hunter to be prepaired for any circumstance,and not have to worry about shooting an animal that is to big and tough for the bullet being used at the time...............
Last edited by jwp475; 07/15/06.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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JW,
I judge bullet performance by wound channels, penetration and bone/tissue destruction.
I don't freak out if a core seperates on the offside of an animal, nor if it fails to exit. Its always nice if a core remains intact but a seperation does not always mean failure if it happens on the offside of an animal...........
MtnHtr
Last edited by Mtn Hunter; 07/15/06.
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by Mtn Hunter
Both BTs did lose their cores which were only a couple inches from the jacket. This bullet weighs 82.3gr and I did glue the core back in to keep it from getting lost.
This was not a case of bad bullet performance but rather bullet choice. [Quote]
[quote] by jwp475
In my book it is bad bullet performance, since there are bullets on the market that will not lose thier cores and allow the hunter to be prepaired for any circumstance,and not have to worry about shooting an animal that is to big and tough for the bullet being used at the time............... I would agree � 59% retained weight is well under what I desire and expect in my bullets. My first big game animal was a spike bull elk (actually a 2-point If you count the brow tine, which was pretty small) and the bullet was a Hornady 162g BTSP from my 7mm Rem Mag. Range was between 100 and 120 yards. The bullet centered a rib and came to a stop under the hide on the off side. The challenge to the bullet�s integrity was minimal, but retained weight was only 47.7% or 77.2g. The following year I switched to 160g Grand Slams and it was 20 years before I recovered another bullet. That bullet had smashed through both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull elk and still retained over 71% of its original weight. The following year I decided to use true premium bullets for hunting and have no regrets. One interesting test I have performed was to shoot various bullets into swinging steel plates at 200 yards. While not representative of flesh and blood, it does provide a severe challenge to a bullet�s integrity. Of the various hunting bullets I have tried, the North Fork is the only one for which I have been able to recover any pieces. For the most part, the others created a shallow crater, turned into shrapnel, and proceeded to shred the paper targets I stapled up about 15 feet to the side. TSX�s and XLC�s from my 7mm Rem Mag and .300 Win Mag create a deep and wide crater and give it a shiny copper plating job, but I have never recovered any TSX or XLC pieces. The two .308� 180g North Forks from my .300 Win Mag made deep craters and stayed in them, one of which I was able to remove for examination. It had expanded to a perfect mushroom with a diameter of .495� (small, but not unexpected in steel) with a short shank section that was inside the deep cap of the mushroom. Retained weight as 85.0g or 47.2%. Although low, that�s 47.2% better than any other bullet I�ve tried. Those steel plates get shot by a lot of people using many different bullet types, cartridges and velocities. I have on my desk two other pieces of bullets I have recovered. The first is one of mine, a jacket from a .224�, 52g Match BTHP (Speer or Hornady, not sure) fired at about 3600gps from my .22-250. It looks like a 2-dimensional octopus with a very thin coating of lead on one side. The other is a .308� of unknown origin. It is a piece of lead roughly the size of a dime but thinner and with relatively sharp edges,. On one side and slightly off-center is the perfectly round base of the original jacket (which I measured to determine the caliber). Some people want their big game bullets, or at least part of them, to fragment on impact. While the use of such bullets can and often does result in dramatic kills, it is my opinion and experience that they can and sometimes do yield undesirable results due to low retained weight. I�ll take a good mushroom with high retained weight instead. As always, placement is the #1 criteria. MtnHtr � I accept that we have different opinions on this. You use the bullets you do because you have confidence in them. I reject them (particularly the BT�s, don�t really have an issue with the AB�s and Partitions) because I don�t. If you are ever in the Denver area, contact me and I�ll buy the first round.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 07/15/06.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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JW,
I judge bullet performance by wound channels, penetration and bone/tissue destruction.
I don't freak out if a core seperates on the offside of an animal, nor if it fails to exit. Its always nice if a core remains intact but a seperation does not always mean failure if it happens on the offside of an animal...........
MtnHtr It all boils down to how the results are interpited, as the shot angle you described is one that I would expect an exit. I believe that a hole in and a hole out ( 2 holes ) is better than just a hole in (1 hole). YMMV
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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I have no horse in this race, nor any particular personal interest in (other than academic) as to what works on game bigger than deer or black bear. If I ever have the desire to hunt Elk again (which at the moment, I don't) then I might think about super penetrators for that purpose. But............reading this from the outside, it is clear there are two viewpoints. Both have points and flaws but neither has a lock on the "ultimate truth" Viewpoint #1 states that the bullet must retain a high percentage of weight (say over 60-70%) and should exit the animal in 95% of circumstances. To ENSURE this, it takes a pretty tough bullet. Lack of either of these two attributes equate to "bullet failure" (whether the animal is on the ground or not) The flaws in this argument are that...... #1......Said tough bullet does not always kill quickly, b/c by nature, it will expand more slowly and will not throw "shrapnel" Naturally, if said tough bullet hits bone, it may expand more quickly. But we all know that hitting bone with a toughie is no more of a guarantee than missing bone with a std bullet. #2.....Said tough bullet (may) not expand at all (or minimally) on a soft tissue hit. Of course, the defenders of the toughie either say this absolutely never happens (repeated evidence to the contrary) or they say "look the critter is dead what more do you want" (THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENT THAT THE STD. BULLET FAN USES WHEN HE SAYS "WHO CARES HOW MUCH WEIGHT IT RETAINED? THE DANG CRITTER IS ON THE GROUND) Viewpoint #2 states that the dead critter is the goal and that the std. or (non super) bullet does this just fine and often (probably most of the time) faster than the super bullet. It also states that the factors in viewpoint #1 can often be detrimental to quick dispatch of sofer targets. The flaws in this argument seem to me to be........ #1.....Some of these less than super bullets may not penetrate well enough to hit vitals from SOME angles. I think this may be true for lighter bullets of soft construction (Sierras and Speer boattails come to mind) Hornady Interlocks, and of course the Npt come to mind as bullets that probably DON'T have this limitation. The Ballistic tip crates controversy b/c some will say that "I had one blow up on a large rabbit in '79 and I just know that they are just all bad" OTH, others like Stevezapper, (who I suspect has more experience than any 5 of us put together) say they kill stuff real dead, real quick. #2.....The std bullet or the less than super bullet (like the IL or Pt for example) will not always exit. Probably true, but of course the argument is that the exit does not matter, just whether the critter is on the ground. (SAME ARGUMENT AS ABOVE, "PENCILING DOES NOT MATTER EITHER, JUST THE DEAD CRITTER") I personally think that the softer targets say under 500 lbs. just don't need a bullet like a TSX or a Failsafe, and the potential loss of an animal from penciling is greater than the potential loss from under penetration or less than "adequate" weight retention. For me, these choices will continue to be the Npt, the Hornie IL and I'm giving the Btip a personal tryout. OK, I'm done, ya'll get back to fightin' now. I'm going fishing.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> JimF
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CH & JW, I joined the same camp as both of you fellas not long after joining the campfire (90%+ retained bullet weights & required exit hole camp). But after a bad experience with a standard X I'm going back to the BT/NP (and maybe the AB) for my hunting bullets. Ty Herring pretty much sealed the deal for me when he suggested in the Barnes Newsletter that folks should aim for the shoulder bones when hunting big game in brushy country so animals don't run off unrecovered. The problem I have with his suggestion is the shoulder shot does not always present itself in brushy country. Alot of times I'll shoot for the heart, lungs or even the spine if the animal is close enough (which it usually is). Apparently Ty receives enough feedback on critters not dropping very quickly from X bullet users if he put that suggestion in his newsletter. IME, a NP will give a quicker kill even on a marginal hit (the outer fringes of the vitals) due to its larger wound channel/dispersing shrapnel characteristics. Hey, I want all the edge I can get when taking down a critter in steep brushy timbered country and using BT/NPs has paid off for me with their larger wound channel/shrapnel destruction behaviors. I hunt alot of brushy, timbered country around the fringes of Nat'l Parks, Indian reservations and private property. I want the animal to take a dirt nap as soon as possible for those reasons (no explantion needed here, but one can put their rifle down and travel into a Nat'l Park to recover downed game, though a knife is no fun if faced with a wounded bear or mulie!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just a note on weight retention, in the smaller calibers/bullet weights (25cal and down) I would not choose a BT since weight retention would become more of an issue nor would I use a light BT in one of the fast stepping magnums. MtnHtr
Last edited by Mtn Hunter; 07/15/06.
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Brad,
Thanks for your follow-up post to Mark. I was beginning to lose my mind with custom '06 as the last 150 or so 168 gr. TSX's were grouping like a friggin' shotgun! All of my practice loads (ie, 168 Amax's) were still .5 inches or less. But, I could not get the TSX's to group at all. Funny this post got started and I am sitting here about to load some Partitions for my '06 and my new 300 WSM!
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Whoa! I know the Noz is a good bullet having used them for years but from all I've read here and elsewhere it sounded like the TSXs inherent accuracy might be better.
I'm on my first box of 210s in the .340 and on my second in working up .30-06 loads with the 168s and getting the best accuracy ever in the .340 and very good in the '06 and now you guys are saying you're seeing inconsistencies from lot to lot? I was hoping I was finished bullet shopping for both these rifles; in fact was just starting to work with the 270s in the .375.
What's with Barnes QC then? I guess the best thing is to call them and find out.
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MtnHtr, I don't know if I had a bad box of them or not. There's not way to tell at this point in time, they are all gone. But the performance of that lot was predictable.... they expanded FAST in everything I shot them with. Shot one small deer, too, through the top of the neck into the chest cavity. Same results.... everything inside liquid, no exit, found the plastic tip but nothing else.
The Partitions surprise me as being darn near as accurate, if they were seated straight. I know it might be a difficult decision if a controlled-expansion bullet doesn't give good accuracy, but a more fragile bullet does.
I've had good luck, accuracy-wise, with the Barnes X and shot a few coyotes and varmits with them. Have a .338 that will shoot some amazingly small groups with the X, so hey.... why not use it.
Anyway, thanks for the stories and pictures.
Think I will try the Accubonds next.
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For what it's worth- THis is a Nosler Accubond, recovered from the offside of a bull Tahr, taken at 150 yd., from a .280 Rem. Result was an instantly dead Tahr- I'll take that performance any day. [img][image] http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y186/Geoclark/Accubond.jpg[/img][/image]
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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Campfire Ranger
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I like the Accubond. It's a "sexy" bullet, should fly like heck and penetrate like a Partition to boot but...I am trying them out in my .375 - first - in anticipation of a plains game hunt in Africa and it doesn't like them. So far with H4350, Varget, and Rel 19 it's "no go". Oh, it'd work but 2-2.5" groups are pretty sloppy.
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You gotta go with what will shoot, in your rifle. In the case of this .280, it shoots Fed. factory ammo with the 140 gr. Accubond just lights-out.
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I like the Accubond. It's a "sexy" bullet, should fly like heck and penetrate like a Partition to boot but...I am trying them out in my .375 - first - in anticipation of a plains game hunt in Africa and it doesn't like them. So far with H4350, Varget, and Rel 19 it's "no go". Oh, it'd work but 2-2.5" groups are pretty sloppy. TRy Winchester 760 it is great powder for the 375 H&H a little under appreciated powder that works great in the 375 H&H
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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If anyone is interested I have this opened box (47ct) of Barnes XLCs in 210gr, make me an offer I'll let 'em go cheap! PM me......... ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/MtnHtr/IMG_0327.jpg) MtnHtr
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Mark, you can have what I've left of the 168's. The 300 WSM refused to group them. I thought it odd since this rifle seems to shoot everything well so I gave them a whirl in the 30-06. I first shot a group with the old 168 TSX's... they went into one ragged hole for three shots (3/8"). Shot the new lot of 168's next (same componants and die setting)... they went around 1.75". Forget it, life's to short to muck around with this sort of minutia.
Huntr, it's aggravating to have such inconsistency in a bullet. Partition's are a know quantity for me so I'm going to stick with them. My 300 WSM puts the 180 Hornady and 180 Partition into the exact same group... both average around 3/4" and run at 2,950 fps. I'm done "finessing" Bares bullets when I can just load up an Interlock or Nosler and get consistant resuts and proven performance.
Mtn, just tried to call you... got your message on my voicemail. Did a marathon dayhike in the Absaroka's today and just got in (no cell reception there)... I'm bushed! Lots of elk and deer sign as well a bear... was a beautiful day in SW Montana.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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MtnHtr �
Like you, when I decided to go to premiums I tried the XLC�s. Performance was mixed, to say the least. My test rifle was my 7mm Mag and the bullet weight was 160g. One coyote went down to a broadside shot at about 80 yards. Although I spent some time looking, I never did find the entrance or exit holes and nary a drop of blood. But the coyote went straight down. Another coyote was hit broadside at the same range. It was running and the XLC took out a section of the spine leaving a goove as large in diameter as my forearm.
Next came a buck antelope, a trial run before I would use the XLC�s on elk. At about 287 yards I put one through a buck that was quartering towards me. Don�t recall if he dropped or not but I recall him standing there with his head down coughing up blood for quite a while. Eventually I decided to put another one in him. This time he went down but kept his head up as if sunning himself. Finally I hiked around a hill to get a closer shot, about 75 yards. The buck got up and tried to walk away but was stopped by a third XLC which hit his heart on a quartering away shot. Upon examination, the first two went through the lungs, no problem with placement, but the wound tracks showed little sign of expansion. The third track showed signs of expansion. At that point I decided ixnay on the X and XLC bullets. That fall I went back to my usual bullet at the time, a 160g Grand Slam. The TSX�s give me excellent accuracy and I hunted elk with the 180g in my .300WM last year, but haven�t fired a shot at game with them. At this point I�m holding out for the MRX�s which I believe will resolve any lingering concerns about reliable expansion.
After trying the North Forks in my .45-70, I went with them in my 7mm Mag, .300 and .308. Can�t get them for the .257 so I went with the 120g A-Frame instead (and also worked up loads for the 120g Partition).
We share common goals, we just choose different tools to achieve them.
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 07/15/06.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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I have no horse in this race, nor any particular personal interest in (other than academic) as to what works on game bigger than deer or black bear. If I ever have the desire to hunt Elk again (which at the moment, I don't) then I might think about super penetrators for that purpose. But............reading this from the outside, it is clear there are two viewpoints. Both have points and flaws but neither has a lock on the "ultimate truth" Viewpoint #1 states that the bullet must retain a high percentage of weight (say over 60-70%) and should exit the animal in 95% of circumstances. To ENSURE this, it takes a pretty tough bullet. Lack of either of these two attributes equate to "bullet failure" (whether the animal is on the ground or not) The flaws in this argument are that...... #1......Said tough bullet does not always kill quickly, b/c by nature, it will expand more slowly and will not throw "shrapnel" Naturally, if said tough bullet hits bone, it may expand more quickly. But we all know that hitting bone with a toughie is no more of a guarantee than missing bone with a std bullet. #2.....Said tough bullet (may) not expand at all (or minimally) on a soft tissue hit. Of course, the defenders of the toughie either say this absolutely never happens (repeated evidence to the contrary) or they say "look the critter is dead what more do you want" (THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENT THAT THE STD. BULLET FAN USES WHEN HE SAYS "WHO CARES HOW MUCH WEIGHT IT RETAINED? THE DANG CRITTER IS ON THE GROUND) Viewpoint #2 states that the dead critter is the goal and that the std. or (non super) bullet does this just fine and often (probably most of the time) faster than the super bullet. It also states that the factors in viewpoint #1 can often be detrimental to quick dispatch of sofer targets. The flaws in this argument seem to me to be........ #1.....Some of these less than super bullets may not penetrate well enough to hit vitals from SOME angles. I think this may be true for lighter bullets of soft construction (Sierras and Speer boattails come to mind) Hornady Interlocks, and of course the Npt come to mind as bullets that probably DON'T have this limitation. The Ballistic tip crates controversy b/c some will say that "I had one blow up on a large rabbit in '79 and I just know that they are just all bad" OTH, others like Stevezapper, (who I suspect has more experience than any 5 of us put together) say they kill stuff real dead, real quick. #2.....The std bullet or the less than super bullet (like the IL or Pt for example) will not always exit. Probably true, but of course the argument is that the exit does not matter, just whether the critter is on the ground. (SAME ARGUMENT AS ABOVE, "PENCILING DOES NOT MATTER EITHER, JUST THE DEAD CRITTER") I personally think that the softer targets say under 500 lbs. just don't need a bullet like a TSX or a Failsafe, and the potential loss of an animal from penciling is greater than the potential loss from under penetration or less than "adequate" weight retention. For me, these choices will continue to be the Npt, the Hornie IL and I'm giving the Btip a personal tryout. OK, I'm done, ya'll get back to fightin' now. I'm going fishing.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> JimF JimF � I will agree no one has a lock on the �ultimate truth�. Some people choose their bullets on cost alone, others by the color of the box, some by advertised velocity, bullet shape, bullet brand, and so on. In the end, however, each person chooses the bullet they think is best for them. Most of the time I think the bullet choice probably makes little difference in the outcome. Put me in camp #1 (Viewpoint #1 states that the bullet must retain a high percentage of weight (say over 60-70%) and should exit the animal in 95% of circumstances.) with a few caveats. First, I prefer even higher weight retention. But I would disagree that �Said tough bullet does not always kill quickly, b/c by nature, it will expand more slowly�. True for some bullets, perhaps, not all. The North Forks are designed to expand at relatively low velocities. In the case of the 180g .308� launched from my rifle, the preferred impact velocity as suggested by the manufacturer corresponds to a shot over 600 yards, well beyond anything I would attempt. The functional velocity extends the range out to almost 800 yards. I don�t know about Trophy Bonded or A-Frames, but given the similarities in construction I would not expect them to perform much differently. Second, while I have never heard of a North Fork, A-Frame or Trophy Bonded failing to expand, I have never claimed �this absolutely never happens (repeated evidence to the contrary)�. If you know of such a case I would be happy to hear about it. Perhaps you are referencing X, XLC and Failsafe?
Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 07/15/06.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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