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Here's a link to someone who knows how to do it if ever you have a lot of money and a hankering for something special done.

http://learmsllc.com/john-rigby-&-co/

My son and I have owned several drillings, combos and double express rifles.

the clasical scope mount for these weapons is the claw mount. The masters at claw mounts are the austrian and german gunsmiths but you must be prepared to pays a hefty price for a job well done.

For the last 25 years Recknagel, EAW and more recently Ali Killic offer very reliable detachable swing mounts that are much less expensive.

As a matter of fact claw mounts are pretty much out of fashion, except for the rich and famous.

I've had Recknagel and EAW pivots, and liked them both. I've not had any of Ali Killic's. Are they much different from the other two. I've come to prefer the pivots over claws, except for the classic is cool factor. A second question, are there any gunsmiths that know drillings in the states that handle and install them?
Thanks
Bfly

Don't know if anybody here remembers of the late Heidemarie Hiptmayer and her husband Klaus.

Their gunshop was located in Eastman, Quebec/ CANADA.

Heidemarie was a very talented engraver. Klaus Hiptmayer was a stock maker and gunsmith. Both were from the austrian school of Ferlach.

Their work was often pictured in editions of Gun Digest.

Klaus has made quite a number of claw mounts. He used to source the unfinished parts in Ferlach.

http://www.herosarms.com/Klaus_Hiptmayer_Stockmaker/

He is retired but you could still question him. Only problem is how to get the firearm over the border and back to the US.

No need to go far. LGS has early Model 700 carbine with Griffin & Howe qd side mount plus vintage scope with 1" tube Redfield I think for about $500. The rig is excellent condition. If one shops around one can get very good quality qd mount for free. No need to pay hundreds or thousand to buy and have one professionally installed.

With lots of patients, good files, measuring tools and lots of blacking you can make a set of your own(NO I DO NOT)claw rings to replace missing ones.

These were carved out of a set of Weaver Grand Slam high steel rings.

Let's put it this way: as always, you get what you pay for.

Claw mounts are expensive. There's few pros left (even in Europe) that can make them properly, and when they do, they charge for it.

Now, there's not only the claw mounts: there's also the scopes.

You're talking Zeiss, Swaro, Schmidt & Bender, Kahles aso., and prefferably, in order to achieve proper eye-relief, those with rails.

That is the reason for which EAW, Recknagel and Ali Killic swing mounts are nowadays the most popular: they are less expensive and more easily installed. But even at that, count no less than $ 500 ~$ 600 for parts and labour.

If the Drilling / mixted/ express rifle still has old claw-mount parts installed atop, these ought to be dismounted with a torch.

In turn the barrels will have to be reblued by the rust-blueing process.

Well...

Oh, yeah, you simply MUST use a scope made by German-speaking people, otherwise it won't work at all.

I love these threads. One of the better American gunsmiths (who among other things has reregulated a bunch of doubles, both smoothbores and rifles) makes very fine claw mounts for guns that have lost theirs. He uses a combination of steel bar-stock and parts from popular American mounts, and they work extremely well. But he won't make them for everybody, just old customers. I know this because he made a set for one of my wife's combination guns, and it works perfectly with a 1.5-5x Leupold.

I would bet a nice drilling that the original poster on this thread has owned more drillings (and other fine guns, both multi- and single-barreled) than the vast majority of Campfire members. I also know the gunsmith he's talking about, and he has decades of experience with of the same kind of firearms.

I once noted that some Americans are convinced that all expensive Euro-scopes are made in secret fortresses by German elves who live forever and possess magic optical secrets unknown to mortal man. I have great admiration for middle-European rifles of all sorts (after all, the rifled barrel was invented over there 500 years ago), and own a bunch of them, but sometimes this magic stuff goes a little far.

John,

I am not prejudiced as to riflescopes, but there's a few things that I am aware of that you might not, reason being that I have hunted extensively in Europe, where things are a bit different from what they are here, in eastern and western Canada, and certainly in the US.

First thing you may not be aware of, is that european hunting regulations allow hunting one (1) hours before sunrise and one (1) hour after sunset.

In canadian and US legislations we hunt one half hour before and after.

There is very few american-made riflescopes that will do the trick, i.e. that offer the crepuscular performance of european brand large objective optics.

I am a very good friend of Leupold and during the 2000's I have often exchanged back and forth with Gabe Lange (formerly Leupold marketing) about issues related to their line of "Euro-30" riflescopes.

I do not think that Leupold is actively seeking market gains in the european hunting scopes segment, for if it was financially worth the while, Leupold would have developped long ago specific products to achieve significant gains in this market.

Second consideration is the fact that a great deal of hunting conducted in Europe is drive hunting.

The typical scope used for drive hunting is a 1-4x26 mm. optic with a 30 mm. tube, illuminated reticle and very large field of view.

The VX-7 1,5-6x24 mm VX-7 is a runner-up in this segment. It is preceded by a number of models from various european brands for many years.

As to the anonymous gunsmith you are referring to, let me just says that raw parts for claw mounts are still available from several sources in Europe.

Otto Repa of Oberndorf a/Neckar has a vault of Bock raw parts for sale to anyone who wishes.

He sells very few, for even in Europe claw mounts are almost out of fashion.

I have hunted several times in Europe, and am familiar with their varied hunting laws. Have also done considerable shooting of running boars, both live and targets, and am familiar with the slow disappearance of claw mounts over the past couple decades.

Have also tested a bunch of scopes with my unpatented but very effective night-chart technique, and while European scopes have tested the very highest, some other scopes have done just as well, including the Leupold VX-6's. I am about to test a new Nightforce which supposedly is also very bright, but no, I don't think Leupold or Nightforce or any other American-based is actively seeking a large part of the central European hunting market, mostly because the American market is far larger.

But I also know there is no inherent superiority in European scopes, also due to long experience with many brands. Scope companies around the world have been making great scopes that sometimes match or exceed Euro-scopes in many ways for a number of years.

I also don't see why somebody should order expensive parts for claw mounts from Europe when something as good or better can be made relatively easily here. Or why somebody would go to the even greater trouble of removing claw bases from a classic drilling just so they can replace it with an EAW or whatever.

Friend Mule Deer,

As far as I know, Leupold is about the only scope manufacturer that is still truly american.

Burris belongs to Beretta and has a bunch of models made in Asia. Nightforce Compacts and F1 are made in the US, the rest are made in Japan.

Of course there's Zeiss scopes made in Oregon (By whom?), but there is objectively a hell of a difference between Zeiss or lately (so-called) Steiner "Germany" riflescopes borne in Oregon and their european counterparts.

Quite simply, the warranty of US assembled Zeiss riflescopes is neither respected nor carried out by the european company's headquarters.

One major difference is the price. And pricing is always relative to what the customer is willing to pay for.Therefore, if you want to purchase a Leupold scope that matches a Zeiss Diavari V 3-12x56 it will cost you as much as the european scope, for, there is no secret to all this: quality material and craftmanship is expensive.

Now the question that poses here is whether you need or not this type of equipment.

If you are into trophy hunting or if hunting regulations call for selective hunting, then you better put some hefty money into riflescopes.

When a stag's tine makes the difference between a 10.000 � or a 25.000 � trophy fee, you better have a clear sight at what you're shooting at.

If you are hunting wild boar on a stand overnight, or if your neighbour invites you to drive hunt because game overpopulation has become a threat for the forests or safe automobile circulation, and because as a hunter that leases 1500 hectares of woods and plains you are liable for dammages to crop and vineyards, indeed you need the best "battue scope" on the market.

Now, if you are into casual deer/ moose hunting, in Quebec or elsewhere, there's many scope brands that will give you much satisfaction at modest expenditure.

Back to claw mounts, again, they come as raw parts, i.e. unfinished/ in the white. They are not as expensive as you suspect.

EAW, Ali Killic and Recknagel still have them in their catalogs. Otto Repa has a vault full of ancien Bock parts for sale at modest price:

http://www.vdb-waffen.de/de/fachges...ye254_ing_buero_repa-otto_repa.html?s=28

Of course claw mounts can be handmade by craftmen or otherwise fibricated by gifted amateurs , but is it worth the while when you can get the real thing already 90% finished?

The cost of labour ought to be taken into consideration because competence is rare and costly.

Oh, now I get it! You're a German True Believer!

Let me provide a little history of me and German scopes. In 1993 I was the guest (along with several other American journalists) of Zeiss on a tour of their then 3 factories in Germany, and also used one of their scopes on a hunt in the Czech Republic just before the tour.

I found out the scope they provided wasn't as bright as a Leupold of about the some size, but that was something of an aberration, since that model wasn't very good compared to other Zeisses. I already knew that Zeiss didn't seal the adjustment turrets of their scopes against moisture, so damp air could easily get inside, fogging the scopes. But I also found out on the trip that they also put every scope they made in a big clamp holding 100 scopes, and banged the entire clamp 1000 times before selling them, thus guaranteeing they were well-used.

About this time I also gained a lot of experience with other Euro-scopes, and found it was common to not seal the turrets (the exception was Kahles). I also found out, though experience, that many of the expensive Euro-scopes weren't all that recoil-resistant, and eye relief was short. There is an optical advantage to the short eye relief, but there are disadvantages as well. During the trip the Zeiss people decided to prove how recoil-resistant their scopes were, and mounted one on a .416 Rigby for us to shoot. Only one guy was dumb enough to try, and got whacked twice in the face by the scope.

But what was really interesting about the trip was that Zeiss mostly tried to convince us that Americans were too ignorant to use their perfect scopes. We tried to explain why some Americans didn't prefer scopes that fogged, or had short eye relief, or broke when shot on harder-kicking rifles, but that wasn't what the Zeiss people wanted to hear. In fact they were basically puzzled about why anybody would seal the turrets on a scope, when the turrets were covered with caps.

Not long after that Germany's DEVA organization did some optical tests with various scopes, and found that the German brightness advantage had basically disappeared, due to very good multi-coating on scopes from other countries.

Things have changed since then, obviously. Zeiss decided to offer scopes with longer eye relief and sealed turrets, and some other European companies also started producing scopes designed more for American hunting conditions. That's how the Zeiss Conquest came about, but even then it didn't go smoothly at first. They sent a dozen out to American optics writers, and I tested mine on a .375 H&H, whereupon it broke within less than 20 rounds. When I reported this, they pulled all the early scopes off the market and made some changes to the adjustment system. Oh, and most parts of those Conquests (including most of the lenses) were were made in the Czech Republic, not Germany.

I don't know why you're quibbling about where scopes are made. Fine optical parts and scopes are made all over the world. Some of the most recent Japanese scopes have gotten far higher ratings among competitive shooters than European scopes, and I know of at least one "Austrian" binocular that's been made in Japan for years--and the optics improved after it started being made in Japan.

While riflescopes continue to evolve, the magic advantage you still believe inherent to German scopes didn't exist 20 years ago, and still doesn't exist today. I know this because of close contact with the optics industry all over the world for 20+ years, and a lot of shooting and testing. The brightness tests I devised has proven to be very effective in approximating the more expensive testing equipment of optics labs, and has revealed there's no difference in optical quality between the best scopes made all over the world. Any differences in mechanical reliability either never existed, or have disappeared as well. I know you will disagree, but believe me I've heard it all before, many times.

Yes, there are many very fine scopes made in Europe, but there are many fine scopes made elsewhere as well, and some still have advantages over some European scopes.

Lee has used AKAHs for years, the 90% finished ones. He also uses a combination of these and some customs ones he makes for certain applications. He values and works with clients to get the best value, given the client's wishes and demands.

Several years back a client was dead set to have one scope work on two different guns without re-zeroing. THAT was a tricky one to pull off.

So are AKAH's also known as Killic's?
I have filed out a set or two of claws rings from extra high leupolds, but I have to either speak with Lee or JJ on one I need a scope on. The front base is pretty far forward and the scope needs to span the rear sight. It will take a bit of planning to get the angles and eye relief correct.
Bfy

I'm curious as to the suggestion that all of this is necessarily hugely expensive. What sort of money would you pay in the US to get a scope fitted to a rifle which already has claw-mount bases?

FWIW I decided to change the scope on my drilling a couple of years ago, choosing a 1,5-6x to replace the 6x Hensoldt. Both scopes were fitted with rails, not rings. I supplied scope and gun, and a Ferlach-trained gunsmith here in Oz fitted the one to the other for $150. He did an excellent job of it too, and now I have the 6x as a spare.

If the mounts were a "stock" mount like the AKAH mounts, and the rails heights were the same it would be a relatively simple task for someone who knows the animal. AKAH bases accept their rings/rail clamps with some final fitting. The trick is in knowing where and how to add stress to the whole set up.

We have a few difficulties with getting claw rings put on cape guns and drillings here in the states. We don't have many gunsmiths who are trained to do this work. The market is small, so there is little incentive to get into it. Many of the guns that have claw bases on them are pre WWII guns or pre rail guns. From my conversations with the gunsmiths who have done work for me, complications are common and can get real expensive. I've had most of mine converted to pivots. Still not cheap, but a bit more versatile and less expensive. The price estimates I've gotten to install claws on guns has been in the $1000 to $1500 range for three different guns. Pivots have cost about 2/3 to 3/4 of that and are much easier to change to other scopes, if needs change. Those estimates were from two of the three that I trust to do this work. Not cheap, but we are dealing with skilled handwork and time.
Bfly

In response to Mule Deer's:

I sympathize with your war story: I was already there in the mid sixties!

Meanwhile, a bunch of domestic scope manufacturers have changed hands or vanished from the US manufacturing scene, but to name a few like Swift, Bausch & Lomb (US), Weaver (El Paso) or Redfield.

Riflescopes (any brand and provenance) have gone long ways, and then again since 1993. Stands true for all brands, american (the few that survive...) and european (not just german: Kahles/ Swaro is austrian, Meopta is made in the Czech Republic), as well as japanese, philipino and whatever.

Eventually the chinese will follow suit.

But, since you mention the early 1990's and the good ol' Beaverton folks, I invite you to go back to your older catalogs and designate to me but one (1) single model Leupold riflescope that back in 1993 had a large, light gathering front objective and 30 mm. tube designated for hunting an hour after sunset or worse, overnight.

There was none.

I ignore which of their scopes Zeiss provided his guests on this 1993 hunt in the Czech Republic. You have not specified the game you were after, nor the mode of hunting that was conducted, therefore I cannot compare whatever instruments you are refering to.

I can just say that, about the same period of time, I have spent several years back in Europe on a professionnal assignement. During those years I have hunted extensively, on a year-round basis (May to February), as I was personnally leasing a 1200 hectares wooded territory hosting wild boar, roe-deer and red deer in significant densities.

Even in Europe,I had easy, inexpensive access to american scopes and can remember using some of these on break-open doubles or combination guns I would use for drive hunting.

The Burris "Fullfields" of those years were the easiest to install for correct eye-relief on such firearms as they had their turrets way up front.

My Merkel Drilling carried a Zeiss 4x32 with rails in suhler-type claw mounts. The scope had a german N� 4 reticle and was almost as bright as the Bushnell 2,5-8x32 "Scopechief II" that sat on my Steyr-Mannlicher rifle the evening of May 1969 when I shot my first black bear in a Quebec dump.

More seriously, American scopes could be used for day-time still hunting (Pirsch), of roe-deer. Unfortunately they were worthless for early or late day selective red deer or wild boar control stand-hunting.

Leupold's of those years were designed for domestic, north-american daytime hunting, within north-american hunting regulations. They had longer eye-relief and, granted, they were better sealed than competitive products of the same period, US and european.

This was out of necessity, because many north-american hunters are dedicated magnum caliber users, and because hunting in north- America quite often equates a several day's expedition in rugged country.

I guess that is one reason why Leupold has survived competition in the US.

In Europe, over the same years, Zeiss-Jena, Kapps, Nickel, Carl Zeiss, Hensoldt, Swarovski, Kahles, Simoptics and (many...) other european manufacturers were busy satisfying the demand of their own continent's hunters.

The needs were different. In Europe, hunting is mainly a week-end's proposition, not very far from home or out of a confortable hunting lodge or hotel room as you certainly witnessed in the Czech Republic.

European hunters are generally bound to their hunting area (Revier,) and only mildly enthousiastic about hunting in either windy condition, rain or snow. They would rather leave the damn stag alive for a couple more days and come back the next quiet evening.

Standard calibers are seen mostly in Europe. This squares with european game species (including scandinavian moose), none of which is very heavy or hard to kill.

Over the years the 30-06 Sprfld. has become the german's most popular caliber. It will probably take France by storm (this time peacefully...) in the coming years, as the renewed french firearms regulation (sept. 2013) again permits use of military calibers for hunting purposes.

You and I can at least agree on the fact that a 3" eye-relief does the trick for non-magnum calibers. Incidentally I wonder how I managed to shoot my 375 H.&H. magnum Pre-64 Winchester with a Weaver K 2,5x20 on top in the early 70's, without blessing myself with a magnum kiss each time I pulled the trigger.)

Nevertheless, the fact is that nowadays things have gotten pretty much equal.

Leupold's 1,5-6x42 LPS was plagued with problems and is no more in production. The 2,5-10x45 LPS of the mid 2000's has become a VX-7. My son has one standing on a 375 H.&H. magnum L.H. Winchester Mod. 70 that has been used a couple of times on game.

Leupold's illuminated 56 mm variables are certainly fit for stand hunting in Europe.

My (old-age...) Winchester Mod 70 classic sporter 270 Win. is topped with a Zeiss Diavari M 3-12x56 T* and German reticle N� 4.

It is a couple of notches above the Zeiss Conquest product line.

The scope has ample eye-relief and should'nt fog in the coming days, when I'll be sitting in my closed tree stand, looking forward to the passing by of a diletante moose, or, a week after, to the clever whitetail buck that could'nt care less for my apples and carrots.

Weidmannsheil!

AKAH is a german wholesale company. They used to have a sister company located in France, but no more.

Much stuff that is sold in the raw may come from former eastern european countries (Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic).

As I may have written before, claw-mounts are not fashion in Europe anymore. There is two major drawbacks to claw-mounts:

-they put tension on the riflescope's tube,

-they are expensive in terms of installation/ work hours.

To answer a question someone has posted here, the reason for switching from claw-mounts to pivot mounts on a Drilling is simple: economy is the major reason.

There were no standard claw mounts in the past. All makes were pretty much custom. As a consequence, measurements of the bases of older Drillings (and such) vary a great deal, and hooks (claws) need a lot of filing.

Filing by hand is not given to anyone. The last generation of gunsmiths knew how to hand file, but that is no more...

The last time I had a new scope installed on a Drilling I chose EAW pivot mounts. The Drilling is a fully engraved Josef Winckler (Ferlach) gun chambering 16-16/ 7x57R.

The scope is was a brand new Zeiss 1,5-6x42 Diavari. I had the job made in Germany. The barrels had to be rust-blued since the old parts were silver-soldered.

My son sold the gun in 2009 in Canada in order to finance his return to Europe where he'd studied economy for several years.

Be advised that in Europe Drillings, even of high quality, do not sell very well anymore. You can easily get a Drilling in good shape for about 1500~2000 � including decent scope and mount.

When investing into claw mounts and such, you better consider resale value.

The problem with Drillings is the fact that nowaday's hunting modes are much more specialised than they used to. Before and for 20 years after WW-II small game, roe-deer and wild boar used to be hunted alltogether in Europe.

Nowadays you hunt either separetly, therefore you would rather use shotgun or rifle, depending on what you are hunting for.

Another factor is the aging of hunters in Western Europ.

Germans in particular cannot remain in possession of their firearms if they do no renew their hunting or sport-shooting licences. As a result many fine Drillings make it back to the gunshops for resale.

For those who do not know, Germany has only 400.000 licenced hunters for a population of over 80 million. German sport shooter are about 1,5 million, but many are air-rifle addicts.

In the last decade France used to have 1.3 million hunters and fewer than 200.000 sport shooters. Both figures were way down from pre-WW-II numbers. Recent estimates call for about 1 million rapidly aging hunters and a small increase in sport shooters.

Explains why used firearms flood the european markets these years.

So long!

Friend Schmitt,

Yes, Leupold offered more than one fully-multicoated scope with a 50mm objective in 1993, but the notion that 30mm-tube scopes increase light transmission is a myth.

It was primarily promoted by the advertising agency for a European scope company, but the only way a 1" tube could adversely affect the amount of usable light coming through a scope enough in an exit pupil of smaller than 7mm in diameter. But they don�t.

The only real advantages of 30mm tubes are a slight increase in strength, everything else being equal, and wider range of elevation and windage adjustment�that is, if the erector tube isn�t increased in diameter inside the scope as well.

As I noted in an earlier post, I am very familiar with the differences in big game hunting in Europe as opposed to the U.S., and why European scopes were/are different.

However, over here we�re starting to hunt wild boar (feral) a lot at night, and consequently our scopes for those uses are changing. But in many areas we don�t have the restrictions on hunting pigs. Basically, anything goes, because they�re such pests. Consequently in many areas (including Texas, which has the largest pig population in North America) we can use night-vision scopes, which are far more effective than the brightest European scopes.