Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting why are so many guys so worried about thier caliber choice?

I guess I don't understand this "margin of error" business. An elk's vital area is the size of a trash can lid.

So, if you can't hit a trash can lid at reasonable rifle ranges, I guess you need those "margin of error" cartridges.

Guides well, most are considerate. But they have the responsibility to do all they can to get the client and Elk. Afterall, who gets blamed if they don't? 95% of the time the guide or the outfitter.




Same reason if they miss or better yet wound. 95% of the time the guide did a poor job of calling the elk or stalking. You often hear as the owner of an Outfit. " Your guide should have gotten me closer", or "your guide messed up on his calling and I had to take to far of a shot" or "your guide made me rush my shot and that why I missed." Very rarely do you hear a client say. "wow, my fault, I'm scared of my rifle."

Well, margine of error increases as the client gets tired and or is a flincher. Now your vital area becomes in theory increasing smaller.
I don't care how big of a caliber you have, if you gut shoot the Elk he isn't going down right there, he's on the run.
Funny thing is those big bullets when they miss clean can't kill either. No such thing a vapor trail concussion.

The last two posts seem to make an unexpected statement,
First the guides do all they can to get a client an Elk, and are blamed if they fail to do so.
Second, as the shooter gets tired the margin of error increases.
So if the guides walk the client into the ground until he is to winded to shoot even if he had the ability before, have they done all they can to help?

Sorry to be so contrary on this thread, but I see so many guides seeming to sneer at their clients, and I wonder if they ever think that maybe the poor guys spend most of their life working 14 hours a day in small shops, or spend their life on business trips, living in airports or armpit of the world hotels trying to pull down a couple of hundred thousand a year so they can provide for families and take a hunting trip every five or six years.
Kinda hard to stay in mountain running shape living that way, or even spend time on boards like this becoming informed on what might be the best equipment.
One final comment- The original poster of this thread uses a 340 Mag, one of those big rifles "so many can't shoot". Is his comment a legimate issue or is he really just beating his chest, saying to the world "I'm just a little better than most of you"?

They have to get them to the Elk somehow... I know very few guys that will carry him there.. I know a few that have tried. When it is game tim eit is game time.. Elk don't wait around to be shot at intentionally.



Serioulsy if the guy is "pulling down a couple of hundred thou" and he can't afford to go hunting, I'd say there are serious problems. Maybe that $500 a month finess membership that doesn't get used would be better off being used, or that 6000 sqare foot home to one up the jones' wasn't a good idea cause you have a family of 4 not 10, or that 500SEL that runs ya $1500 a month wasn't really the car you need with a baby on the way...

common seriously a few hundred thou a year and he can't afford a $5000 elk hunt...

And I travel the country every year marketing our guest ranch and outfitting busines. I live in and out of hotels for 3 months.. I still find time to take walks or use the facilities in a hotel. IT isn't that hard.. I had a city job at one time too and travel quite alot. It you are serious about it, you can make it happen and find the time.
I offer my comments to enlighten the person serching for an outfitter about what goes on behind the scenes so maybe this "client" can have a better time and better working relationship with his guide. You have expectations of the hunt and "we" have expectations of you being prepared to hunt.

and to answer you question. Yeah we know what our clients lives are like. We also know $5000 is A LOT of money and wonder why a guy who commits to $5000 wouldn't commit to taking the hunt seriously.

Make anymore sense?

That's a pretty good response. Not sure I agree with all of it, but overall you made some good points.
One more thing on the walking- I'm in pretty good shape for a guy who just turned 65, but I'm built kinda like a fireplug (big body- short legs)
Years ago I had to quit hunting with my son (6'2") legs about six inches longer than mine.
Mind you, I can get almost anywhere at my pace(and I can maintain that pace all day), but I can't match the strides of someone younger who moves like a deer.
He gets his animals- I get mine. We just do it at different speeds

Well, your comments go right to the heart of why I don't guide anymore.
If hunting is too hard, stick to golf.

Slow and steady work much better than hurry and sit and waste time...

There are sure a lot of differnt ways to hunt. sit and wait, spot and stalk, drive around on your AtV, or walk like heck though the mountains. A person should pick an outfitter who best meets his /her needs, if they are going to use one. If a wilderness hunt is your cup of tea, you shouldn't be looking at the Vermijo ranch where you hunt out of lodge with full amentites and drive around in a 4WD. I certainly agree that getting in shape is a prime requirement for anyone about to run arounda t +6000 ft. However, there are hunters out there that can't get in shape due to physcial dissablities. That doesn't mean they should quit hunting. Outfitters can be found to accomadate them or they can do DIY hunts that meets thier needs, as they can find rifles and cartridges to fit thier needs also, no matter what they hunt. Myself , I have physical limitations that prevent me from getting downed elk out of the back country, so if I didn't ride and have my mules, I would have to quit hunting. My crapped up lungs keep me from running up and own mountains anymore, but I can still get out there and move around, slowly, but surely.

I don't hunt elk, but moose in bear country. However, since I only have and use one big game rifle, all I worry about (if any) is on what bullet to use for the season. Sooo, "one-rifle hunters" don't worry too much about caliber, because they know that what they have does the best job on the game they hunt.

Isn't that true? That philosophy works on a good marriage, too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess I'd have to say my family!

I love to hunt elk, but haven't gone since 2002 due to financial and family obligations. I'll be lucky to get out next year.
What's more fun to talk about, our rifles and components or how much I practiced shooting today? I'd rather read about someone's new Sucks .280 AI sitting in a purple metallic McSwirly with a Luepy 2.8X8, shooting 140 TSX's than about how much someone was sweating because he just ran 5 miles.
Just because someone likes to talk about their rigs, doesn't mean they don't do the other things to prepare for the hunt.

So, what's better a .300 Mag or .338 Mag? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"So, what's better a .300 Mag or .338 Mag?"

Id guess the answer varies with the ammo used, the range, its used at, and the skill of the guy opperating the rifle, to a large extent.
but Ive never seen a need to swap from my 340 weatherby/250 grain HORNADY combo, but thats just my personal choice, whats YOURS and have you ever felt under or over gunned?
LIKE Ive stated before, I started with a 30/06, it killed ELK just fine but it didn,t always drop them within a few feet of the impact point , even with good shot placement, while the 340 wby has, had a remarkable 30 year plus record in the field of dropping ELK quickly, but so has my 35 whelen and 338 win, so theres a wide range of usefull calibers

Sorry 340, that was meant to be a joke.

FWIW, I've settled on a .338-06 as my "big gun".

"I've settled on a .338-06 as my "big gun". "

Ive owned (3) 338/06 rifles over the years,two with synthetic stocks and one with a laminated stock) but every time I have one built someone comes along and starts offering me obsene amounts of money for it at a time when Im low on cash, I can,t figure that out,I see ZERO differance in performance from my two 35 whelens in the field results, yet the 35 whelens just don,t seem to inspire greed,and loss of finacial judgement in rich guys souls.....probably why I still own the two 35 whelens.
at one time, finding dirt cheap model 30 remington, or sporterized enfield, 1917 enfield, actions in caliber 30/06 was fairly easy at the gun shows used gun racks and rebarreling was cheaply done


before


the after depends on your wallet and skill, but a fine handling, smooth, feeding rifle can result, and both look good and shoot exceptionaly well, plus they hold 6 cartridges in the magazine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />but you could buy a weatherby brand new for what just the gunsmith labor/work alone would cost today, let alone the parts

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think rifle nuts have to talk about rifles just as heroin addicts have to shoot up. Any of us with a modicum of experience know that most any rifle will do for elk if the guy holding it knows what he is doing. The quest for the "ultimate" elk rifle is just fun to discuss with other gun nuts.
God created campfires and rifles on the same day. Once he had created the campfire he immediately knew there would be a problem if all those fires had guys sitting around them with nothing to talk about.

Lodgepole - You got it exactly.

I don't have any varmint rifles, so all of my rifles from 27-35 caliber are fine for elk, and I can shoot them all.

But if I listen to the informed opinion of enough people on why their choice makes sense to them and sort it out for myself, I'll be confident that (in my mind) I have the best tool for the job at hand. I'm sorry to say that I don't have much interest in being a one-rifle man, no matter how much "prestige" goes along with that form of martyrdom.

Practice-practice, run-run, pay-pay (or don't pay), scout-scout, are surely sage advice but could easily be put in one little sticky topic that never changes, like a FAQ on how to prepare to go hunting.

That would free up space around the campfire for guys that like talking about rifles.

If you think the posters here worry more about their elk rifle's chambering than they do other aspects of the hunt, then I suggest you haven't been around us long enough. The elk hunter's here seem to be anal about EVERYTHING involving the hunt, because after all, elk hunting is a mental disorder......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> There also seems to be a general disdain for gun rags here...................

Baltz made an excellent comment about elk hunting in the Cascades. I started elk hunting in 1998 and the Oregon Cascades are the only place I have ever elk hunted. Cover is tight and animals move from small openings into heavy timber quickly. Putting an animal down as quickly as possible makes sense, and bring up questions about which is a better choice, a 30-06 or 45-70? Maybe a 338 Win or a 416 Rem? I happen to have all four of those rifles and would be happy to use any--though the 416 is a bit heay.

Also, there is a myth out there that a guy who shoots a lot off the bench can't shoot from field positions. Now I try to get in offhand practice but I never seem to get as much as I'd like. What usually happens, based on my time available, my job, and budget; is I am just settling on a load when it's time to leave for the hunt.

That exact thing happened two me months ago. The majority of my shooting time was spent driving my 1K BR rifle. Some time was spent with my 270 WSM, but when the 270 didn't work out I grabbed my "back-up" my 30-06. I loaded up some rounds from a load I found last year and sighted the thing in. All that shooting was at the bench.

My next shots were a pair of well-placed 200 yd shots on a Texas Hog, shooting off a "sitting" bipod I had never shot off before. In fact, I had never shot any game off a bipod before.

Now I do need to practice with that bipod to stretch shots much beyond 250-300 yds with it. However, I have always found a great deal of "skill transfer" between careful bench shooting and field shooting. I have made a clean kill shooting off the back of a stool at 180 yds, and I made a clean kill at 318 yds standing up and leaning the rifle against a pole. I have also made well-placed short range offhand shots. I think time behind the trigger teaches much, from whatever position you are shooting from.

One of these days I'll be caught up enough to practice more from field positions. In the meantime, I'll just keep my shots under 300 yds. That really isn't much of a handicap though...............

Excellent post Blaine!