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Joined: Jan 2004
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Campfire Member
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OP
Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 222 |
I have been loading for my 300winmag for the last 7 years. MY go to load settled on 75 grains of R22 in W-W brass ahead of Win large rifle magnum primers with Barnes 180gr TSX. Preparing to head to WY for antelope I went to the range to check sight in with loads assembled April of 1013. The first shot seemed a little potent and bolt lift was definitely sticky. The second shot was definitely robust and when extracting the case (mauser action) the bolt lift was definitely very sticky and the case came out and the primer fell out. That was it. I went home. I pulled the bullet from one of the cases and weighed the charge...75 gr. I pulled a second load tilted the case to drop the powder in the scale and nothing came out. I could see powder in the case but it took tapping the case to get any powder to drop and what little bit came out was clumped. I had to use a fine screw driver to get the powder out and it was definitely in clumps. In my 30 years of reloading I have never had this happen that I know of...I never had to disassemble loads due to pressure. I will be pulling bullets and digging out powder...but now I am a little spooked. I have had good results with R22...and I have 6 pounds left to use. Any ideas?
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,949 Likes: 12
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,949 Likes: 12 |
I would suppose that loads that were over 1,001 years old might be a bit suspect.  Seriously, I share your puzzlement and would like to hear what others have to say about the situation. Not meaning to sound condescending, but is it possible that you somehow contaminated either the powder or the insides of the cases when you loaded the rounds? It sounds like something was present that shouldn't have been.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Joined: May 2003
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,305 Likes: 16 |
If one charge poured out and looked normal, and the next one was "clumpy" I'd suspect contaminated powder. If you use spray case lube, or a non-dry inside neck lube while sizing, that could be your culprit.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,154
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,154 |
I don't know that this relates to your problem, but I once washed a bag of 30-30 cases in the washing machine. I let them set several weeks and then loaded them. I had a couple of failure to fire and when I pulled the bullets some of the powder was clumped up like you are describing. Obviously I didn't get them dry.
Hope you figure out what caused your problem.
My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost....
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,307 Likes: 2 |
Im thinking something going on with the powder too. Another thing may be case lengthening and or neck thickening. I never ran into it with a .300 but I have with a .243 and repeated firings of the brass.
How many times has your batch of brass been reloaded?
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,998 Likes: 8
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,998 Likes: 8 |
I have been loading for my 300winmag for the last 7 years. MY go to load settled on 75 grains of R22 in W-W brass ahead of Win large rifle magnum primers with Barnes 180gr TSX. Preparing to head to WY for antelope I went to the range to check sight in with loads assembled April of 1013. The first shot seemed a little potent and bolt lift was definitely sticky. The second shot was definitely robust and when extracting the case (mauser action) the bolt lift was definitely very sticky and the case came out and the primer fell out. That was it. I went home. I pulled the bullet from one of the cases and weighed the charge...75 gr. I pulled a second load tilted the case to drop the powder in the scale and nothing came out. I could see powder in the case but it took tapping the case to get any powder to drop and what little bit came out was clumped. I had to use a fine screw driver to get the powder out and it was definitely in clumps. In my 30 years of reloading I have never had this happen that I know of...I never had to disassemble loads due to pressure. I will be pulling bullets and digging out powder...but now I am a little spooked. I have had good results with R22...and I have 6 pounds left to use. Any ideas? Is this a different lot of powder from your original work up?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082 |
It's been fairly well documented that over time bullets will stick to the brass, probably from galvanic corrosion. (Two dissimilar metals) If you were close to max to begin with, this could cause you to be over now. As for clumping powder? No clue, beyond what the others have said. Contamination due to lube?
Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2007
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Take one of your loaded rounds and put it in the bullet seater die with the die adjusted to seat another thousandth or so. Slowly run the round up into the die. If you get some resistance and sort of a click at the top of the stroke, it would likely indicate that the bullets are stuck to the cases.
Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,565 |
If one charge poured out and looked normal, and the next one was "clumpy" I'd suspect contaminated powder. If you use spray case lube, or a non-dry inside neck lube while sizing, that could be your culprit. This was my first thought....
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,705 Likes: 48
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,705 Likes: 48 |
Your load data is safe, your powder isn't. I would dump the powder, get a new batch. I would pull bullets on all your existing ammunition, dump the powder and make sure all your cases are clean and dry before loading the new powder. I would bet this will cure your problem. I did blow up a nice Colt SAA from the same condition of powder that was affected negatively by contamination or poor storage... ![[Linked Image]](http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/handguns/105_0110.jpg)
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38 |
Snake River Marksman,
Actually, bullets sticking to case necks ("cold welding") is caused by the metal being similar. Both are brass, though of different mixes. Cartridge brass is around 70/30 copper/zinc, while typical jacket material ("gilding metal") is 90/10 copper/zinc.
Cold welding can cause pressure problems, and is more common in new or super-clean brass. It's one reason I don't clean the inside of case necks anymore, which seems to reduce the problem.
Clumped extruded powder doesn't usually cause high pressures, since there's still enough air-space between the granules to allow normal burn rate (unless, of course, the powder's been contaminated by something else). Clumped spherical powder acts differently, the reason many powder manufacturers advise against heavily compressing sphericals.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,958 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,958 Likes: 3 |
RL22 is very temperature sensitive. Many years ago I saved all of my load work up for the fall when it was cool or downright cold. RL22 is the powder that broke me of that habit. Now I work up loads in the dead heat of the summer for the reason you describe.
74 gr RL22, 140 gr TTSX were good for 3400 fps in my 7 Wby at 40� ambient temperature. But, when I took that load hunting in 90� it ripped the neck off & recoil was quite brisk. Fortunately, I was shooting a Mk V Weatherby.
By the way, in case you missed it, Jeremiah was a bullfrog.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,256 Likes: 38 |
That can also happen as well, and even with some powders less temp-sensitive than RL-22.
Of course, another factor is that loads "appearing" safe can actually be right up there, and a little higher ambient temperature can put them over the line, which is one reason for SAAMI maximum pressures: They provide a margin of safety.
Barnes lists 73.0 grains of RL-22 as max with 180 TSX's, two grains under the load that started this thread.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,082
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2007
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Thanks Mule Deer! I googled it and found some interesting reading that corrected my faulty understanding of what was going on with that. Today is not wasted, for I have learned something!
From wikipedia:
Cold or contact welding is a solid-state welding process in which joining takes place without fusion/heating at the interface of the two parts to be welded. Unlike in the fusion-welding processes, no liquid or molten phase is present in the joint.
Cold welding was first recognized as a general materials phenomenon in the 1940s. It was then discovered that two clean, flat surfaces of similar metal would strongly adhere if brought into contact under vacuum. Newly discovered micro-[1] and nano-scale cold welding[2] has already shown great potential in the latest nanofabrication processes.
The reason for this unexpected behavior is that when the atoms in contact are all of the same kind, there is no way for the atoms to �know� that they are in different pieces of copper. When there are other atoms, in the oxides and greases and more complicated thin surface layers of contaminants in between, the atoms �know� when they are not on the same part.
Stupidity is expensive
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,134 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 19,134 Likes: 6 |
If you got good nerves you might try seating them a hair deeper and shooting. That would break the weld but would not help with the clumping powder. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,276
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,276 |
I use a lot of R22 as well. With 180gr Nosler Partitions I've run 75grains R22 in a long-throated Ruger #1 in .300 Win Mag, and it was a good load, but well up there in pressure. I have also run larger charges  but they were clearly too much - expansion of the case webs resulted. With a TSX? 75 sounds too warm to me as well. If you want a .300 Weatherby...
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I've had the same experience with RL 22, and only RL 22. A load that was sub inch and fine one day was backing out primers another. These were loads worked up in cooler temps and then again in hotter temps. Really haven't used it since, but probably will since I have about 5 pounds of the stuff. I'm going to load in significantly down when I do go back to it.
Be Polite , Be Professional , but have a plan to kill everybody you meet
-General James Mattis United States Marine Corps
Nothing is darker than a mau mau's moo moo.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,432 Likes: 9
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,432 Likes: 9 |
I have been loading for my 300winmag for the last 7 years. MY go to load settled on 75 grains of R22 in W-W brass ahead of Win large rifle magnum primers with Barnes 180gr TSX. Preparing to head to WY for antelope I went to the range to check sight in with loads assembled April of 1013. The first shot seemed a little potent and bolt lift was definitely sticky. The second shot was definitely robust and when extracting the case (mauser action) the bolt lift was definitely very sticky and the case came out and the primer fell out. That was it. I went home. I pulled the bullet from one of the cases and weighed the charge...75 gr. I pulled a second load tilted the case to drop the powder in the scale and nothing came out. I could see powder in the case but it took tapping the case to get any powder to drop and what little bit came out was clumped. I had to use a fine screw driver to get the powder out and it was definitely in clumps. In my 30 years of reloading I have never had this happen that I know of...I never had to disassemble loads due to pressure. I will be pulling bullets and digging out powder...but now I am a little spooked. I have had good results with R22...and I have 6 pounds left to use. Any ideas? Is this a different lot of powder from your original work up? That would be my question as well. I worked up good loads with RL-22 in a .300 WM and a .270 (a manly one, not a gay one  ). These were published loads and velocities confirmed they were very similar to what the manual was getting. Used up that 8 lb jug, bought another and loaded my same loads. First time out the .300 WM loads increased velocity significantly and gave very hard bolt lift. The .270 loads with 130 grainers at 3100 fps suddenly gave 3300 fps and hard bolt lift. I had to back down to starting loads and work up again, reaching previous safe velocities at 2-3 grains below my old loads. RL-22 is a great powder and produces good velocity and accuracy but I am very leery of lot to lot variation with it.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Jul 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,543 Likes: 1 |
"RL-22 is a great powder and produces good velocity and accuracy but I am very leery of lot to lot variation with it."
I noticed the same thing, and quit using it for that reason. I don't miss it one little bit, either. I was also using it in a manly, ungay .270, one winter, and noticed big velocity swings with it, too, from summertime loads. None of my loads gave me any issues, but why monkey with it when H4831SC is so tractable?
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 15
New Member
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New Member
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About 10 or so years ago I ringed the chamber on a 7 rem mag with a max load of R22 (66 grains) behind a 175 hornady. Had shot the load in cooler weather with no problems. First shot I fired on a hot summer day in Alabama near 100 degrees. I had fired around 180 rounds in cooler weather with no problems. Checked my remaining rounds and they were all right on charge weight. Temp extremes do matter not just in load performance but safety.
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