Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Wolves vs. coyotes in Yellowstone

Here's an article from Reuters I saw on AOL. I had no idea of how quickly the wolves in Yellowstone have been able to increase. Perhaps I'm a chucklehead, but I don't have an opinion one way or the other on wolf re-introductions except that I think that in areas of low game density such as the western states, the wolves should also be a game species.<P>Actually, I wonder what it'd be like to be walking back--at night--from a day of fishing for cuts up on Slough Creek close to the Lamar Valley! What do you guys think of the wolves making a comeback? Justin<P><BR>Tough Times for Yellowstone Coyotes<P>By Jeff Tollefson<BR>Reuters<P>YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK, Wyo. (July 2) - Wily coyote has run into a spot of trouble in Yellowstone National Park where the canine once reigned supreme. But things haven't been the same since his bigger cousin the wolf came on the scene with great fanfare in 1995.<P>When 31 gray wolves were released in Yellowstone in 1995 and 1996, all the attention was on the great predators: Would they thrive? Would legal challenges from ranchers groups fearing the loss of young livestock send them packing?<P>Now the legal challenge is settled and the wolves have done just fine, expanding their numbers to 168 in as many as 16 packs. But the biological effects are reverberating throughout the Yellowstone ecosystem. Coyotes, long overabundant because of no competition from wolves, have been hit the hardest, with populations in some parts of the park sliced in half.<P>''Certainly the species that is going to be impacted the most in the short term, which I call the first 10 years, is the coyote,'' said Bob Crabtree, founder and science director of Yellowstone Ecosystem Studies, a private nonprofit research group that has studied coyotes there for more than a decade.<P>''You might think a 50 percent reduction is big, and it is, but remember, coyote populations likely increased in the 1930s after wolves were extirpated,'' Crabtree said.<P>Since they were reintroduced in 1995, the wolves have already expanded beyond the boundaries of the 2.2 million acre<BR>park, just as they have taken over territory formerly occupied by their smaller cousins.<P>NO LONGER TOP DOG<P>No longer the park's top dog, coyote populations in an intensively studied portion of extreme northern Yellowstone have dropped by about 50 percent, to between 250 and 300, since the wolves returned, researchers say.<P>In the Lamar Valley east of park headquarters in Mammoth Hot Springs, coyote packs once averaging five animals each now number only two or three. Coyote territories in northern Yellowstone have shrunk, with the wolf now dominating open grassland in the central Lamar Valley, and many coyotes have been outright killed by wolves protecting their elk carcasses.<P>Visitors flock to the Lamar Valley to see the Druid Peak wolves, which scientists call the most visible and studied wolf pack in the world. More than 3 million people a year visit Yellowstone -- the world's first national park -- and officials say the wolves are quickly becoming one of the park's top draws, often causing traffic problems when a pack is in view.<P>Wolf watchers love to catch sight of them hunting and feeding, but a coyote hanging around for a look and maybe a nibble at leftover elk carcass can get into trouble.<P>Once the wolf pack has gorged itself, the animals nap and digest their meal; raptors and other animals then feast on the remains. But it is a different story when it comes to coyotes:<BR>Wolves are territorial and much faster than coyotes, even with a belly full of meat, and they have been known to deal the ultimate blow to many a coyote trying to lunch on leftovers.<P>CARS USED TO BE BIGGEST DANGER<P>Before the wolves returned, the most common cause of coyote deaths was traffic, Dave Bopp of Yellowstone Ecosystem Studies said. ''Now that the wolves are here, they kill most of the coyotes,'' he said.<P>Crabtree said the coyote population has not decreased evenly. In core areas of wolf activity, the reduction might be 80-90 percent, while less-used areas within wolf territory have seen a 30-50 percent reduction. ''Between wolf territories, coyote populations are doing just fine and may even in some cases have benefited,'' he said.<P>Bopp said coyotes have apparently learned that roads represent a safe haven from wolves, who are extremely shy and will do anything to avoid human contact.<P>Park Spokeswoman Marsha Karle said some visitors, despite warnings, have been tempted to make friends with the coyotes, which often show little fear of people. But feeding animals, as well as calling to animals, is banned in the park, she said.<P>''You start getting these beggar coyotes ... they hang around the roads more and they get hit by cars,'' Karle said. ''They should be eating things that it is natural for them to eat, rather than Twinkies.''<P>Coyotes feed largely on rodents, so fewer coyotes should mean more rodents. Theoretically, that means more food for another canine cousin, the fox, as well as owls and hawks.<P>As the presence of the wolf ripples through the food chain, canine populations should come into healthier proportions, according John Varley, Yellowstone's chief scientist and director of the Yellowstone Center for Resources.<P>The fox already appears to be prospering, Varley said, adding, ''You drop the pebble in the pool and you watch the ripples, and they go out and go out and go out, and they seemingly last forever.''<P>REUTERS 09:41 07-02-01

I'm watching the wolves with interest too. Looks like the moose and sheep populations have taken very large hits so far. They<BR>are rapidly moving into "my" hunting areas<BR>near Bozeman.<P>I saw two wolves running next to Slough Creek<BR>last summer. Pretty impressive, but they were anything but shy of people...<P>Dave

Sooner or later, and it looks like sooner, those wolves are going to be eating the elk and deer you want to shoot. 10 years ago, a fellow tried to make me believe that the anti hunters were in on this. I'm starting to believe him now. At least they are probably happy with the turn out as it is.<BR>Here in Colorado, we can't convince the DOW that coyotes are eating all the fawn crops of deer and antelope. They tried to do a study area, but the anti hunters shut them down. As the rancher replied to one bunny hugger that suggested they spay or nueter all the coyotes they could catch, " Lady the coyotes aren'e forincating our sheep, they are eating them". This is the mentality you are facing. So if you are all for re- introduction of wolves, please give up your elk tag so those of us that aren't can still use ours.

I would rather see the Elk eaten by wolves in the wilds of the park than at the elk refuge at Jackson Hole begging for hay! The real problem is all of us stinking people moving into the elk's migration range because of the nice ski slopes!<P>Mike<P>Just MHO I could be wrong [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img]

well, if we just drop a 50M A-bomb on the park, that'll solve the problem...<BR>no wolves, coyotes, elk, sheep or bunny huggers... we'll start all over again.

Bigram, it is a fact that there are wolves in the Shields, 30 miles north of Bozeman as well as in the Crazies. I have property up there... I know it to be true. <P>I'm not neccesarily against the reintroduction, I just want to see harvest tags issued for them (in a drawing) according to sound science... as this is a political hot-potato that'll probably not happen anytime soon, just as with the grizzlies. Heck, everyone KNOWS there are far more grizzlies in the greater Yellowstone area than the 250 that the biologists have maintained for so long. The number is closer to 400-500. Harvest tags (ala drawing) should be issued for the grizzly too.<P>One friend who ranches in Emigrant has had wolves on his place on more than one ocassion. One alpha female (one of the originals from 95'... with radio collar!) followed his girls from within twenty feet while they were out on the four-wheeler doing chores. Those wolves that had been born subsequent to the reintroduction were much more skiddish and stayed a greater distance from the girls. Still, a bit unnerving!<P>It's too early to say what the entire scope of the impact will be on elk, etc. No doubt it is making a substantial effect on the elk in the Absaroka's where I hunt. To me, it seems like a "grand experiment" that never should have occured. <P>The Yellowstone eco-system has been changed irrevocably due to the introduction of many non-native plant species (and automobiles!)... to try to "recapture" some sort of eutopian ecology is nonsense. <P>I'm not particularly given to conspiracy theories, and I'm certain there are good, properly motivated people who have taken part in the reintroduction. Still, it makes one wonder whether there is a "darker" motivation behind the wolf's reintroduction.<P>Predators like the wolf DO kill for the joy of killing (unlike what the Bambiist's say). One friend in AK who has worked as a high-lineman for over twenty years has reported seeing a pack go through a Caribou herd, dropping everything they could... not eating anything, but leaving the kill to be eaten by other scavengers.<P>Brad

The conspiracy theory about the anti's is laughable! I guess the wolves could limit hunting opportunities, but every man, women, and child in wolf/grizzly territory will probably go back to packin a colt or a model 94 like the old days!<P>I don't have a dog in this fight, because I only get to Yellewstone every few years. I would like to see a wolf and grizzly while there though...and an eagle..and a...well you get the picture!<P>Mike

I think you might have read more into my post than I intended. I didn't say that there was a conspiracy about this, only that a fellow tried to tell me about 10 years ago that there was. What I did say was that the anti's are probably happy with the outcome. Funny though that most of the people that are in favor of it don't live in the affected areas. Come out and watch one pull a calf from mama as it's still being born, or go out and check your sheep and find 10-15 dead. Tha calf is $300+ dollars to to the rancher. Would you want someone to take $300 out of your pocket. It would be grat if they put up a wolf proof fence around Yellowstone, bur that ain't going to happen. Thge wolfs have already increased to more tahn what theyo riginally intended. Thye are like any other predator. When the food supply is good they increasein direct ratio of it. What do you think is going to happen when the elk are down in numbers. They sure aren't going to stop killing for food.As for the elk in Yellowstone. We have visted there every year in Sept for almost ten years. We have notice a marked decline since the fires,but if you ask any park officer, they say "oh no, there is just as many as ever".So I'm a little jaded about believing what they say.<P>I'm not anti wolf, in fact I had a 1/2 timber, 1/2 artic wolf as a pet for over ten years, Best dog I ever had, she was only two generatons removed from the wild. Never had a bad experience like everyone says you will. No chew ups, no agressiveness, she went every where we did. Stayed in the house all day when we were at work. <P>They are neat animals, but like has been said, you can't fix the yellowstone eccosystem.<BR>I guess the next thing is to clone a dinosuar and re introduce them!

Brad,<P>I've lost track of how far north the wolves<BR>had reached. I saw some sign two years ago<BR>just west of Livingston. One thing I would <BR>like to see is more official reporting of<BR>their movements. The US Fish and Wildlife <BR>Service seems awfully quiet about it. They are also quite quiet about the impact of wolves on game. The Montana fish and game department is much better, IMHO.<P>My impression is that the states (Montana/Wyoming/Idaho) are moving strongly to get management control of wolves. Given the ammount of heat the states have been getting for shooting bison out of Yellostone I expect wolf hunts to be an exciting issue for years to come. I like to see wolves too, but want a management plan in place.

I too think the conspiracy theories are overblown, but it is amazing how fast the wolves are expanding their territories. I've also heard the reliable reports of wolves in the Crazies, all through the Gallatin/Madison/Gravellies, and even right here north of Bozeman in the Bridgers. An older widow gal, as credible as anyone I know, thought she saw one on her place about a year ago, but decided it must have been just a big black dog. A couple of weeks ago, she got a real good look at it again, and it's no dog. No domestic one, anyway. It's a big black wolf! Ain't no fairy tale, either ;-).<BR>Brad; you still thinking about a get-together for lunch during the gun show this weekend? Ross Leggett e-mailed to say he's on his way up from Tucson, & will be here Saturday.

Interesting posts.<BR>I've been fortunate to spend winter months in Dubois Wy and Cooke City MT. <BR>I don't think there was a day that I missed seeing one or the other packs in the Lamar valley.<BR>Yes, the wolves are hard on coyotes. Here in Indiana coyotes are hard on the foxes. <BR>Most of the elk/wolf interactions that I witnessed were more of a "sizing 'em up" game rather than outright kills. The elk probably learn escape stradagies from these interactions.<BR>I was again fortunate to be the first to witness the soda butte pack enter the Elk Refuge at Jackson two winters ago.<BR>With as many as 15 thousand elk there, you'd thought that this pack would have set up permanent camp. Didn't happen. Yea, they took a few elk and few coyotes then the pack headed back north. I found it interesting that the pack over in the Bighorns travel through ranchland daily without taking livestock. Evidently the yellowstone wolves are monitored so closely that the Feds do "animal control" if a wolf even looks crossways at livestock.<BR>IMHO the wolves are an important part of the Yellowstone ecosystem, those populations should be montitored, ranchers paid for their confirmed losses, and the wolves should be considered a legal huntable game species in some areas.<P>regards <P>gunner

My beliefs are that whenever you are trying to recreate an ecosystem to its original condition man must still be part of that equation. Man has been on this earth as long (relatively)as animals and was entrusted by his Creator to have dominion over them. God never intended that nature be left untended by man. The original plan always had man as a part of that equation. If you doubt that man has responsibility to manage nature, than you have destroyed also the argument for man taking the responsibility to reintroduce wolves at all. You should simply allow them to reintroduce themselves.<BR>Whenever a specie is reintroduced in time it should eventually be hunted in order to instill in it the fear and dominance of man. When man neglects his obligations to do this, then the predators begin to more frequently attack man and become emboldened to be a greater nuisance.<BR>I have personally experienced the sound of the howls of a wolf pack beginning the evening hunt and would not want to trade that experience for seeing more caribou. The wolves often prey on the weak and sickly stragglers in a herd thus culling the herd and keeping them more healthy. On the other hand though, it is man's moral obligation, as the top predator, to keep the rest of the predator numbers in check and properly balanced or they will begin to decimate the herd numbers of the omnivores.<BR>My position is have both the predators and the ability to hunt and manage their numbers.

I just returned from a week in Yellowstone a couple of days ago. The park is HUGE and the wolves are not having the impact that people like to think they are. In fact they are NEEDED as a form of depredation and winter range management. Man has nearly ruined all forms of winter range, due to ski resorts, lodges, dude ranches and housing. Wyoming, Montana, Idaho and Utah are begging for hunters to buy cow elk tags to keep the winter range carrying capacity in check. The wolves eating calves takes care of this problem although it seems bad for hunters. Although the summer range of all the states is vast, winter range is at a premium and the DWR does NOT like to deal with hunters culling park animals or animals period. They would rather let nature do it for them. Since the bunny huggers have MUCH more clout than hunters, the wolves win on the reintroduction. Yellowstone is no exception. I have a good biology background and the wolves are good for the ecosystem as a whole, since man has screwed so many things up. I feel for the ranchers that are losing animals, but if it weren't wolves killing livestock, it would be coyotes, mountain lions, feral animals or bears. I come from a ranching family and see this first hand every day and hear about it constantly. One year it was bears, the next cougars, the next year feral dogs and now coyotes are the problem on my uncles ranch. There are wolves in all the mountainess states and even Utah. They range all over the place and will continue to do so. Hunting will be good for man and the wolves as the wolves will become frightened of man and learn to avoid them, just as the other animals have. Hunting is good, inspite of what non hunters and tree huggers think. I am off the soap box. Flinch

For those that think the wolves (after a cursory visit to Yellowstone) are not having an impact, you are incorrect. The latest figures regarding the impact on coyotes is that it's believed the wolves have reduced the yote' population by 50%. <P>I'm no authority, but I believe there is no data yet on the wolf's impact on the elk. What I do know is the observations of a friend who has guided elk hunters in the Hellroaring country north of the park fo just over thirty years. He reports seeing two or three calves with a group of 80 to 100 cows. Normally, nearly every cow would have a calf... he's seen that two years running, at the same time seeing an amazing amount of wolves. He is, BTW, the same guy who has had wolves follow his kids around on the ranch. He's also not anti-wolf... just a bit concerned.<P>Also, while wolves and grizzlies may not take beef-cows, they sure do like sheep. The same rancher also had fourteen taken by one old boar grizz til' the state trapper came and took him away.<P>Brad

Think what you want, do what you want, but this old hunter will take out as many wolves and coyotes as he can, same for any cat, small or large. Cats will kill anything they think they can, same for the cannie family in the wild, this goes for your kids also and your pets. Even the rattle snake is protected in some areas but the protectors better be holding my hand cause that sucker is going to rattle snake Heaven. That's like alligators in the cities, if they think they can kill and eat, they will, guess I'm not civilized yet, if it harms people I live by the same standard, education, book learning, be hanged. A hunter, wrangler, rancher, hiker, lost in the mountains has enough to worry about, much less being attacked by a protected animal that can't read. Like the Antis say, "if it will save one life it's worth it", guess that slogan depends if your are buying or selling. JMHO -- no

I really can't add anything here. However there has been talk about re-introduction of wolves in the olympic national park here where I live. I'm not even sure if wolves ever actually lived there? I do however think it would be devastating to our already shrinking deer and elk populations. Wolves our beautiful animals, I just don't know If I want them in my backyard. I have enough things to worry about while walking in the woods, I don't need to be worrying about a pack of wolves. The other problem I see is wolves can't read, so keeping them in the park isn't a realistic expectation. It would just be a matter of time and they would move off the park and start destroying livestock and peoples pets.<BR> A couple of years ago our state outlawed hunting cougars and bears with dogs. What has happened? A big increase in cougar/Bear populations, more run ins with people, and less game for us to hunt. It is not uncommon here for someone to see a cougar or bear in town, Usually in very close proximity to schools. I guess the geniuses that decided all of this are waiting until a poor child is killed or mauled before they pull their heads out of their asses.<BR> Seems to me that we got rid of wolves for a reason? A gentleman who lives across the street from my inlaws brags to me all the time how he killed the last wolf in South Dakota. He may be full of sheet, but he is a heck of a hunter, and just a darn neat gut to shoot the bull with. I don't know what I was trying to say with this post. I guess I just don't know if it is good or bad?,,BEARHUNTER

Yeah the wolves are hammering the coyotes, and their also eating alot of moose and sheep in this country too. The mule deer pop. has dropped so much here the last several years the G&F is going to do a study to see what is happenning to them. Before the wolves moved in here I used to take people out and we could film 3 to 15 moose in an evening. Now it's not even worth going out unless you just want to see senery!!!!! <BR>The wolves are taking livestock too! Don't kid yourself into thinking different. Even the pro wolf people are surprised how much livestock they are taking. The feds took out a pack about a hour north of here because of that very reason. <BR>As far as only taking the sick and the weak goes-----a bioligist was speaking at a meeting before the introduction of wolves and he said that the wolves could take out as many as 90% of the elk calves in an area. A wolf lady jumped up and said "thats a lie they only take the sick and the weak" The biologist said "lady what's weaker than a calf elk"? (think about it)<BR>I'm not anti wolf, I would love to see them in NY, WI, GA, ARK, CO, CAL, OR, just not where I live. Then I could go hear one howl when I wanted too.

Now that I've taken 10 deep breathes and calmed down a bit I just want to say, I have no idea what's going on in Atlanta, St. Louis, New York City, San Fransisco so I have NO RIGHT to tell those people what they are going to have to live with, because "THATS WHAT I WANT"<BR>I'm just try to tell you how some people feel around here about the grizzlies and wolves.

I am very glad to see the wolves making such a great comeback!!! I have never even seen one and now it looks like I will even be able to show my grandson one if/when I am blessed with one. <P>As far as the ranchers who lose the livestock, well mark that up to the problem of raising livestock where they do. If the wolves, bears, etc are causing that large of a problem they CAN keep them out if they want to. Heck people build fences to keep elk in a place, why not use those same fences to keep predators out. I understand that this would be expensive, but it COULD be done. I don't want to see the land broken up by 10+ foot fences as much as the next guy, but I am tired of hearing the complaints. They now the risk (financial) of raising livestock in the same area as those types of predators.<P>Thunderstick- You have been VERY misled if you think that wolves and humans have been around for the same amount of time, even relatively. Wolves have been around for millions of years before even primitive humans came about. Not saying that I don't believe in God, but I don't believe in the creation story. My 0.02 on the subject.

Pointer, that's exactly the attitude that I'm talking about! You don't have any idea how things are here!! We have 3 decent size ranches up the river from me. One is 100,000 acres and the other two are 80,000. Do you have any idea how a much money and time it would take to put a 10 fence around that????<BR>Besides that it could kill hundreds of elk, deer, and antelope!!! How would they get to their wintering grounds with a 10 foot fence blocking their way??? The land around here won't support animals for a long period of time. That's why the game migrates. The ranches are big so they can move livestock so they won't abuse the land. It takes alot of acres to support one cow.<BR>Your attitude that so what if the wolves are eating up the ranchers livestock is just tough tit-ee THAT REALLY SUCKS. <P>Flinch you said the wolves haven't had an effect of the game in yellowstone. I read an article over the winter that said the elk herd in yellowstone has dropped from 17,000 to 10,000 since the wolves were introduced. Now they are going to do a study to see if the wolves are causing the decline.