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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,640 Likes: 3 |
Jorge, if your whole neighborhood wanted you arrested for doing nothing wrong (say, flying an American flag that offended them), would it be cool if the cops arrested you out of convenience and just trusted the court to throw the case out? Close analogy but no ceegar, but maybe my ignorance of the law is showing, but it is my understanding that a DA can remand a case to trial WITHOUT a Grand Jury process and if they can't then my point has no merit. As far as the Grand Jury is concerned, just the "I cant breathe" supplication and the officer still kept the choke hold, plus the fact his death was ruled a homicide, let's just say, I'm glad I wasn't part of that GJ.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jun 2012
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I agree with this. Not in whole but in general.
When the man uttered "I can't breathe" nine times (I heard 11 times on the Kelly File last night) that's where I have a problem.
When LE decides to arrest, subdue, and restrain a person they take away all rights to self defense. When you take that right away you then take responsibility for the person's welfare.
There is and should be the obligation of an arresting officer(s) to insure that no harm comes to someone once they are subdued and restrained. They should have cuffed him and then sat him up so he could breathe.
If the cops would have made an effort to render aid, help the man breath, and he still died ... I wouldn't have a problem with it.
There were a lot of things that were done wrong from a policy/administrative point of view. And that video is never going to be used as a demonstration for using a level of force that is consummate to the threat. But that is not what the Grand Jury is there to determine. They are there to determine if a criminal prosecution should be sought. It is very clear that the case was not prosecutable in the state of NY. Travis In those words you've brought up the issue I have. Was there an excessive use of force? I don't know if this was something that the GJ considered in reaching their conclusion to not indict. In my mind I'm not clear that there wasn't an excessive use of force and I have questions regarding the obligation to ensure the welfare of a man in restraints. IDK what ageny policy is but they called EMS, At best these guys are CFR trained, i dunno what else they could have done. He said "I can't breeve" not "I think i'm having a heart attack
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Jorge, if your whole neighborhood wanted you arrested for doing nothing wrong (say, flying an American flag that offended them), would it be cool if the cops arrested you out of convenience and just trusted the court to throw the case out? Close analogy but no ceegar, but maybe my ignorance of the law is showing, but it is my understanding that a DA can remand a case to trial WITHOUT a Grand Jury process and if they can't then my point has no merit. As far as the Grand Jury is concerned, just the "I cant breathe" supplication and the officer still kept the choke hold, plus the fact his death was ruled a homicide, let's just say, I'm glad I wasn't part of that GJ. "I can't breeve" was well after any "choke hold" had been removed. Just FYI.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,889 Likes: 11 |
Jorge, if your whole neighborhood wanted you arrested for doing nothing wrong (say, flying an American flag that offended them), would it be cool if the cops arrested you out of convenience and just trusted the court to throw the case out? Close analogy but no ceegar, but maybe my ignorance of the law is showing, but it is my understanding that a DA can remand a case to trial WITHOUT a Grand Jury process and if they can't then my point has no merit. As far as the Grand Jury is concerned, just the "I cant breathe" supplication and the officer still kept the choke hold, plus the fact his death was ruled a homicide, let's just say, I'm glad I wasn't part of that GJ. Did I see a different video? I didn't see a real choke, and whatever "choke" there was I didn't see kept.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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A DA has the obligation to bring criminals to justice but they also have equal ethical obligation to not put an innocent person on trial ... just to satisfy a vigilante mob.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I forget how many times a heart attack has presented as shortness of breath as well - with absolutely NO cause from an airway/choking/asphyxiation issue.
What I am saying is that the heart attack may have caused symptoms that the deceased attributed to an inability to breathe.
Happened A LOT in my presence, but that's just 15 years on the streets talking, not a few minutes in front of a video.
Wonder if the autopsy showed any airway damage? Probably not.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
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I forget how many times a heart attack has presented as shortness of breath as well - with absolutely NO cause from an airway/choking/asphyxiation issue.
What I am saying is that the heart attack may have caused symptoms that the deceased attributed to a respiratory issue, when there wasn't one.
Happened A LOT in my presence, but that's just 15 years on the streets talking, not a few minutes in front of a video.
Wonder if the autopsy showed any airway damage? Probably not. Nope, it didn't, or at least that's what has been released thus far.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,192 Likes: 6 |
It would seem, to many, death is a suitable penalty for selling cigarettes illegally. This killing is similar in some respects to the Robert Djicanski (SP?) killing by the RCMP at the Vancouver airport several years ago. They got a pass too. GD
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
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I forget how many times a heart attack has presented as shortness of breath as well - with absolutely NO cause from an airway/choking/asphyxiation issue.
What I am saying is that the heart attack may have caused symptoms that the deceased attributed to a respiratory issue, when there wasn't one.
Happened A LOT in my presence, but that's just 15 years on the streets talking, not a few minutes in front of a video.
Wonder if the autopsy showed any airway damage? Probably not. No it didn't. I think we're tracking together. My point is "besides sitting the suspect upright and calling EMS. What else were they supposed to do?
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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It would seem, to many, death is a suitable penalty for selling cigarettes illegally. you too? Selling cigarettes illegally merits arrest. Resisting arrest merits physical action. Seeking physical action when you are an obese walking heart attack is stupid. That's why we are here.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I think we're tracking together. My point is "besides sitting the suspect upright and calling EMS. What else were they supposed to do? Not a damn thing. I think cops have been sued enough for wrongly interpreting medical issues. You said the medics had their ass handed to them?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Lots of opinions not backed w/ facts on this subject. I was 1st trained in use of the "choke hold" in 1966, in the LE world it was commonly referred to as the carotid caress.
The goal was to contain the neck from the rear w/ the carotids compressed by your bicep on one side and the radius bone on the other. Blood supply to the brain was reduced and the subject usually became flaccid in 10 seconds or less and pressure was relaxed.
Those who haven't tried to restrain a resisting person should understand that you will be injured if you do not control:
The hands, fists claws weapons
The feet and legs, they will kick or knee you
The head, yes Nancy, scumbags will bite you, many carry disease.
Fact: where the head goes the body follows.
Shamu had the right to comply w/ a lawful order he chose to resist and the cops aren't allowed to let you go.
When you choose to fight w/ the cops you are expected to lose.
Facts are a bitch.
mike r
Last edited by lvmiker; 12/04/14.
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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It would seem, to many, death is a suitable penalty for selling cigarettes illegally. This killing is similar in some respects to the Robert Djicanski (SP?) killing by the RCMP at the Vancouver airport several years ago. They got a pass too. GD JFC, that is not what anyone has said. Fugging thick headed [bleep] like yourself are always quick to break it down to its simplest form, and it is never a mystery why.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
In those words you've brought up the issue I have.
Was there an excessive use of force?
I don't know if this was something that the GJ considered in reaching their conclusion to not indict.
In my mind I'm not clear that there wasn't an excessive use of force and I have questions regarding the obligation to ensure the welfare of a man in restraints.
There's no question there was an excessive use of force because the department guidelines clearly stated the technique used was not authorized. But for purposes of the GJ, they were only there to determine if it was a lawful arrest (basically) because in the state of NY, a sworn officer is allowed to use the "choke hold" technique during the execution of a lawful arrest. So, was the arrest lawful? Yes. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I think we're tracking together. My point is "besides sitting the suspect upright and calling EMS. What else were they supposed to do? Not a damn thing. I think cops have been sued enough for wrongly interpreting medical issues. You said the medics had their ass handed to them? Article said they were suspended but didn't say why
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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bad laws get people killed ...thank u NY .gov ........@#$$#(*&^%$$%^T
I work harder than a ugly stripper....
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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Close analogy but no ceegar, but maybe my ignorance of the law is showing, but it is my understanding that a DA can remand a case to trial WITHOUT a Grand Jury process and if they can't then my point has no merit. As far as the Grand Jury is concerned, just the "I cant breathe" supplication and the officer still kept the choke hold, plus the fact his death was ruled a homicide, let's just say, I'm glad I wasn't part of that GJ.
What a subject says has nothing to do with criminal prosecution. The choke hold is a legal technique in the state of NY. Same as OC. If a subject says "I can't breathe" after being sprayed (they will) that doesn't mean anything. It only means he is experiencing the affect of OC. As an aside, (and yes this would be presented by an expert witness) you can't repeatedly say "I can't breathe" if you can't breathe. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Close analogy but no ceegar, but maybe my ignorance of the law is showing, but it is my understanding that a DA can remand a case to trial WITHOUT a Grand Jury process and if they can't then my point has no merit. As far as the Grand Jury is concerned, just the "I cant breathe" supplication and the officer still kept the choke hold, plus the fact his death was ruled a homicide, let's just say, I'm glad I wasn't part of that GJ.
What a subject says has nothing to do with criminal prosecution. The choke hold is a legal technique in the state of NY. Same as OC. If a subject says "I can't breathe" after being sprayed (they will) that doesn't mean anything. It only means he is experiencing the affect of OC. As an aside, (and yes this would be presented by an expert witness) you can't repeatedly say "I can't breathe" if you can't breathe. Travis Kevin Gibson disagrees with you. For what it's worth
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,385
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 15,385 |
Of course it's the cops fault that a morbidly obese dude with potential medical problems decided to tussle. They should've had him fill out a questionnaire first.
Nobody's responsible for themselves as long as there's a cop nearby to blame. yea ....a guy needs to be in shape to be taken down by .gov ....its 100% his fault, that a pile of dudes was monkey piling him...
I work harder than a ugly stripper....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Sorry Clark, Dick Austin and TRH disagree with us.
As an aside, (and yes this would be presented by an expert witness) you can't repeatedly say "I can't breathe" if you can't breathe.
Travis
Hint: if you can talk, you can breath. for a little, at some point you're out of breath and can't talk. Hint: if you can talk, you can breath. How about I choke you to the point you can talk but can't get enough air to support consciousness and we'll test your theory?
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