Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Wolves vs. coyotes in Yellowstone

I don't know any thing about wolves and Yellowstone either and there is no need to say I do. I am not on the ground there so I sure don't know what they are or are not doing. I'll tell you this though, I'd come nearer believeing Wyote than I would some city bread wild life biologist that only knows what they have read in the books. <BR>I do know something about preditation. A preditor will take what ever it can catch the easiest and if it is into eating larger animals then domestic animals are a lot easier than wild animals usually. I'd guess those wolves eat a lot more rats and rabbits than they do any thing else because there are more rats and rabbits around. If they stumble over a calf they will take it in a heart beat because it is there.<BR>Maybe we need to introduce a few lions and tigers and grizzly bears to roam around in the city parks and see how them that wants<BR>to see wild life up close and personal like it. Lots of folks are free and easy saying Oh yeah lets put the wolf there and let them run wild when they are five hundred mile away from the wolf. It is different when it is your back yard that they are putting them in.<BR>BCR

1-pointer,<P>Wyote is right. There is absolutely no way that the greater Yellowstone area ranchers could possibly erect fencing to exclude the wolves. At least not if they expect to eek out a living! A "small" ranch in the area would be at minimum 30K acres. The time and effort required to fence this to keep out wolves would be astronomical. BCR hit the nail on the head. It is very easy for someone a thousand miles away to say "Sure, lets introduce some wolves and see what happens." I sincerely believe that they would examine the issue in much greater detail if the "reintroduction" were to take place five miles down the road. Its amazing how proximity will change your perspective.

Pointer,<BR>Obviously you believe in a random and accidental evolution of the species. Now to be consistent with what you believe, you must acknowledge that your thought processes on wolves and wildlife may merely be a random and accidental mental aberration that has not yet fully evolved into logic.<BR>If we assume that evolution is true though; then we must also acknowledge the basic tenets that support it which are "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest". Upon these premises man is the top predator! Oh and by the way; there is no such thing as moral responsibility in a strictly materialistic process, so any such argument from that perspective is purely specious. <BR>No matter how you slice or dice it, man is at the top of the food and wildlife chain,and he has more intelligence which is why he should be managing the wildlife affairs and not leaving it to strictly to the rest of nature. This is why we are having this discussion among humans only and not between humans and wolves.<BR>All the animal rights activists should be forbidden to kill flies, fleas, and vermin until you get a large enough dose of common sense to understand what ranchers and farmers face in the real world in their co-habitation with wildlife. <P>Have you ever swatted a mosquito that annoyed you????????

Whoa...gentlemen. I appologize for stirring such strong emotions in you, I did not post that as a way of starting a fight, just stating my opinion. <P>Yes, I do live a thousand of miles away, but there are many who live very far from D.C. but still have an opinion on politics. I understand that opinions are like bu++holes, everyone has one and most stink!!! [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] However, the opinion that I expressed is mine, I apologize if the way that I expressed it was antagonizing. I understand the improbablility of the fences, I do. I will get more first hand experience, I am moving to Logan UT to work on a project for the USDA to look as the benefits of sheep grazing and (hopefully) the increased diversity in plant species. My opinion could change with more experience, but as was stated earlier that is my opinion now.<P>Thunderstick- I never discounted the survival of the fittest or questioned man's position in the food chain. I just stated that wolves were here long before humans were.

Pointer,<BR>I understand your opinion.

Pointer, I respect your opinion and every one elses too. Whats wrong (my opinion) is when the goverment (or fanatics) comes into an area and says "you have no say we are going to do something and if it hurts you, your family, property, town, state, big game, livestock etc etc. thats just to bad! Just get over it!"<P>Since you mentioned Politics, (I'm a conservative fanatic)I want every state to elect someone like Jesse Helms because he represents my idea of a perfect politcal ecosystem!!!haha You say you don't like Jesse and some liberal thumb sucker would represent you better. "TOO BAD LIVE WITH IT" <BR>Do you see what I'm saying?<P>Speaking of fences, instead of people having to fence out grizzlies and wolves. Don't you think it would have been better to put a 10 foot fence around yellowstone and then put in wolves. That would have taken care of alot of the problems with animals in the surrounding areas of yellowstone.<BR>No more buffalo shot in MT when they come out of the park. No over crowding of elk on the refuge in Jackson Hole. No wolves destroying livestock and big game in WY, MT, ID. Everyone that wanted to see or hear a wolf could go to yellowstone. <BR>If everone that wanted wolves would just donate a small fee of saaaayy $900 everytime they go to the park to pay for the fence, it would work. LOL (my opinion)

Hey wyote, you may actually have something there. Only instead of a literal fence, why not use hunting outside the park to keep the wolves in? <P>Just how many wolf generations would it take for a population to learn that venturing out of a certain area leads to not passing on the the old genetic code ?<P>If only the Anti's would buy it. Instead they'll want wolf birth control or some other form of nonsense.<P>As for wolves vs song dogs vs elk vs grizzly inside the park - well I figure nature will find its own equilibrium eventually. The problem is how do we keep the park equilibrium inside the park?<P>Regards,<BR>Scott

Need one, your attitude is exactly what is killing this country. "Kill everything, poach and plunder the land. Man owns everything! Screw the seasons and protected wildlife!" I guess that is what you have done all your life so why stop now. Hunting seasons and laws mean nothing to you, nor have they ever, despite your rediculous game warden years. You were no game warden or game manager with an attitude like yours. I guess you didn't learn a thing with all that "credibility" and "wildlife management background" B.S. you spew all the time. I should have figured as much from you. What a freaking hypocrite!Unbelievable! Flinch

I would be for a hunting season on wolves, as long as it is regulated and the population is allowed to stay at a "healthy" level. Now, as I see it, that is where the problem lies. What one(or a group) considers an appropiate level another group doesn't. Therein lies the problem with an issue like this. No plan is gonna keep everyone happy. <P>As far as Yellowstone's ecosystem is concerned, we have screwed it up enough that there is no fixing it...completely. I feel that the animals WILL decide(even if not through rational thought) what the appropiate balance is, just as they have for eons. There were many more wolves in the past than now, and the game animals were able to survive. Then again, everyone can't be kept happy.<P>I find it interesting that animal species are currently disappearing at a rate that is similiar to the mass extinctions of the past that have been caused by ice ages and meteorites(?). Humans sure have a way of $crewing things up.

Is any or all of those 30,80,100K acre ranches on Govt./Our/BLM land? If so, I count a few calves as supplemental to the rent charged for the grazing rights.<P>Maybe we should call these wolf repopulation plans the Cowboy Full Employment Act. If they require more hands to watch the herd than that's more jobs for the local population.<P>I would bet the Yellowstone Elk herd has been overgrown for years and not representative of the rest of the areas. That probably explains all of the nearby guides who like to capitalize on the game coming across park boundaries. One of the park herds doesn't even migrate! They stay put all year because they are unmolested, have food and water and know it! I believe it was on the North end somewhere I'll have to dig out my maps. They had signs telling about them and I got lots of boring pictures.<P>The deal with the kids being tracked leads me to believe if they aren't big enough to pack a pistol/rifle they probably shouldn't be too far from home alone anyway. <P>I'm not trying to be the Devil's advocate, just seems like everyone "out there" has a kill them all, attitude and everyone else is either a "bunny hugger" or a "outsider" who doesn't understand.<P>I agree hunting should be the management tool for wolves because we are the next step in the natural order. <P>How does wolf management work in Alaska guys? Y'all have always had wolves and still have Moose, Caribou, and Deer?<P>Mike

Bingo, good post Mike! Flinch

ROR... your post displays how little you actually know about this region or the life of a rancher and their kids. Most rancher's I know can barely make payments on equipment and ground, let alone HIRE anyone... Most ranches are NOT in the 30-100K acre size, even with BLM leases. Heck, the cost of beef is basically what it was over twenty years ago... I guarantee you the cost of raising cattle has nearly doubled... it's a losing proposition for the "average" rancher. <P>You also don't seem to understand how the forest works around here... this isn't like Alaska, where the forests stretch on and on into the northern "taiga." Here, we have isolated "pockets" of timber and mountains with open valleys in between... this feature (in conjunctin with the human population in the valleys) makes for lower wildlife #'s. <P>I have no beef (no pun intended) with wolves per-se... they're a beautiful predator that makes the wilderness interesting. HOWEVER, hunting has been and should be the primary "management tool" of elk and deer populations. Also, the wolves DON'T stay within the park, or even near the park. Friends have seen them on my property in the Wilsall area of the central Shields Valley, as well as in the Crazies.<P>ou also disply real misunderstanding about how serious the "eco-control-freaks" are about the wolf... let me give you some tidbits from a conversation with a rancher I had two days ago...<P>This rancher from Paradise Vally had wolvess on their place last week... they leas part of their property to make ends-meet. The guy leasing from them had a calf taken by a radio-collared male who had just gone through Ted Turner's "wolf re-education camp." Perhaps you haven't heard of this one, but Ted's footing the bill to "re-educate" wolves by giving them "shock therapy" to associate killing beef with pain... what a deal... Ted, in his arrogance, will overcome the Wolve's hardwiring that God gave them "In the Beginning." Anyway, this particular male is running with two other cattle killers. The state will be shooting these three... if they can find them. The rancher, however, CANNOT shoot them or he'she will forfeit their ranch! Period!<P>This rancher also related what happened to friends of his during the elk hunt last fall. Seems they dumped a bull, and had to leave it out overninght. Came back the next morning to find wolves on it. No problem they "shooed" them away, and packed out the elk. That night they recieved a phone call informing them that, while they had done nothing wrong, they had been observed from sattleite during the whole episode... their liscense plate # had been gotten via sattelite, and they received that phone call as a result of a plate check... that's plain and simple "Big Brother" style intimidation...<P>You have no idea what the stakes are.<P>Brad

Brad,<BR>Ted Turner should have tried the shock therapy on himself when he was considering marriage to Hanoi Jane...<P>The G has, will and always will do just as they damn well please, because noone can control that out of control monster...

Brad- I understand very well the plight of the small producer. I saw a lot of farm equipment auctioned off in Indiana(my old home state)because the economy went to pot in the 70's and 80's.<P>I do think some procedures need to be changed and rancher's should be able to defend their animals, BUT, I think it should be investigated like the "bear attack" killings to prevent people from capping every wolf that comes along! Would that, plus a hunter involved management plan be sufficient to control these wolves?<P>Why don't small ranchers switch to raising breeding cattle instead of beef cattle? A good friend of mine used to do pretty well raising polled,registered Santa Gertrudis on a very small farm. Business is business you have to produce what is feasible in the area, find something else to produce, or get a govt. subsidy, which seems to be the case these days!<BR> <BR>I don't even want to begin on Big Brother! They have all kinds of high tech gizmos to use against the citizenry. How about the proliferation of wireless/cellular telephones. If the govt. picks something up through intelligence gathering(NSA's 11 acres of supercomputers)is it to our benefit in the name of anti-terrorism to be monitored with "key" words that they select tripping a recorder and tracking device? They don't need a warrant do they it's in the open airwaves, I've heard it on peoples scanners before. <P>One thing is for sure there is no simple answer. <P>I wish everyone the best in reaching a solution.<P>Mike

rotr,<BR>I might be missing something here, but how can raising reg Santa Gertudis help? Is there something about them that wolves won't eat? Another thing I thought SG were beef cattle. Do they milk them where you live?<BR>I thought the reason for breeding cattle was so you can get more cattle. I don't think you can make any money by raising them and not breeding them.

We don't milk them, we raise them to sell the bulls to people for breeding their mixed cattle and passing on superior characteristics. The "reason" is they bring more money than beef by the pound! If you have marginal terrain(the west) and can't support many cattle, why not raise cattle that are actually worth something. You can't raise enough sagebrush sucking cows to compete with Texas feedlot cows purchased from states that can grow grass 10 months out of the year.<P>Mike

Yes wolves will still eat them and the increased potential loss would be greater, but the return on investment would balance things back out! <P>Mike

rotr<BR>Heres what I keep hearing. <BR>In order to have wolves, there is going to be some "collateral damage" such a game, livestock, ranchers, outfitters. Which is O.K. <BR>Da Ja Vu!!!!<BR>Well at least tourist will be able to hear wolves howl!<BR>I'm outa here

How about if the western states involved in this mess allow each county to classify animals as varmints or game?Rural counties can list wolves as varmints with no closed season or bag limits.When stock predation happens,the rancher can allow varmint hunters the chance at killing a wolf,for a fee,of course.<BR>Wolves within the Park would still be managed by the Park dept.by whatever methods they choose.If a rancher leases land from the BLM,that doesn't make him a 2nd class rancher.He should have the same rights as if he were leasing from an individual.If the GOV'T cant play by the same rules,they ought to get out of the leasing business.<BR>I would be stupid to lease grass from you if you stipulate that I cant protect my grazing animals from predators.Since this leasing system was in place and serving the public well,the Govt shouldn't change the rules to try the wolf experiment.<BR>This solution would make the Park officials responsible for what happens in the park,and that should make their job easier.Local control is what is needed.<BR>One final thought:If wolves are so thick that humans can observe them from an automobile on a regular basis,they are too thick.I dont believe that is in a wolf's nature to behave that way.It is enough to know they are there.I dont have to have my kid see them.

My forefathers worked their hinneys off to exterminate the wolves in the early 1900's. They never did get them exterminated in Wyoming, and there were still wolves here before the so called "REINTRODUCTION".... The numbers they are giving out is far below what the real population is. They are already killing elk, deer and Moose, and sheep. Between the Grizzly bears and the wolves in the Greater Yellowstone area, and the whole Northwest 1/4 of Wyoming, ranchers and sporstmen are going to be the ones taking it in the shorts. I know several Outfitters and Ranchers from that area and they claim, that the wolves and Grizzlies are already taking a huge toll on the wildlife in that part of the state. While I dont want to see anyting EXTINCT, I think hunting seasons should be placed on anything that is huntable to keep the population in check. The wolf lovers dont know anything except the propoganda that they have been seeing on the TV, and they seldom show the truth on the media. I dont care if they have wolves, but they shouldnt be allowed to get out of control, and certainly not be worth more than a human life.....Way to much of our Taxpayer dollars are being spent on the wolf recovery program, and without merit in my opinion. bcat