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Another very interesting book is "Indian Fights and Fighters," by Cyrus Townsend Brady, originally published by McClure, Philips & Co., � 1904; soft cover edition Univ. of Nebraska Press, � 1971.
Among many of Brady's interviews with soldiers and Indians who were at the Battle of the Little Big Horn, are interviews with certain officers who discussed pros and cons whether or not Custer disobeyed a direct order from General Terry, before Custer and his men left camp. Many believe it led to the disaster at the Little Big Horn River.
There is still controversy to this day about it. Who knows?????
L.W.
This is another myth. Here is the most of Terry's orders to Custer and it is clear that General Terry knew of Custer's zeal and drive in the Indian wars, but you can see here that Custer did not disobey any orders in this regard...
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Yes Shrapnel, North EAST.
I read a terrific eyewitness Indian account of Custers attempted crossing and shooting/unhorsing, which obviously, I cannot find at the moment.
When I come across it, Ill send your way partner. Maybe it offers something new for you as a serious student of the battle, maybe not.
Trump HAD the World, ", Trump saw our children, " Trump saw a way to make a brighter day so he started giving There was a choice he was making, he was saving our own lives Its true he made a brighter day for you and me. --Trump WINS 2016
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Shrapnel, any other books on MT history that you recommend?
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Peter Thompson, one of the Medal Of Honor recipients of the battle, was actually separated from his detachment and was making his way down the river with another soldier and actually saw Custer up on the bluffs for over 15 minutes, not engaging the camp. He testified of this in the hearings of Reno and Benteen after the battle. No one then or now gives that statement any credence, for what reason, I don't know.
This would indicate that Custer was in fact, waiting for Benteen as his adjutant had sent a message to Benteen to hurry and bring packs of ammunition as they encountered a big village. Supplies and the pack train were miles back and there was no expectation of that kind of support.
The Gatling gun theories are worthless as well, as there is no way they could travel this kind of country and pull those carriages with condemned horses.
There are theories of Custer being shot down by the river and then brought back up on Last Stand hill by his troops, as some Indian accounts said they had seen the removal of an important person that could have been Custer. Nothing proves this, but the theory still exists.
He didn't retreat North, he actually was more East of the camp where he and his command were killed. Once you see the battlefield, you can get a feeling of how desperate they were as fragmented as they were and nowhere to go. There are also accounts of a couple survivors that did flee the battle and we are researching that possibility...
Shrapnel You mentioned there are accounts of a couple survivors. I watched a show over the weekend that was called something like Lone Survivor of the Battle or something like that. The man lived in Washington State until he died in the 30's I believe. Is this one of the survivors you are talking about? If so, do you believe his story?
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I hope to go see the battlefield some day as well! Have read most of the Custer books, and have been to his home in Monroe Michigan, also the monument of Custer on his horse in Monroe. pretty Cool, wish I had a pic of it drove by it so many times.
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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He didn't retreat North, he actually was more East of the camp where he and his command were killed. Once you see the battlefield, you can get a feeling of how desperate they were as fragmented as they were and nowhere to go. There are also accounts of a couple survivors that did flee the battle and we are researching that possibility... After I visited the battlefield with Ruffcutt a few years back seeing the lay of the land, it sure help understanding a lot more of the battle.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Sharapnel I'd be happy to hear any input:
Relative to Custer and his judgement; I believe Custer legitimately had no reasonable expectation of encountering a camp containing 2,000 enemy combatatants (not including women and children).
Likely the largest Indian force present anywhere at any time on one battlefield across our whole 200 year plus Frontier period.
Just to put things into perspective; at the Battle of Newtown in 1779, the Iroquois could muster only around 900 effectives, even though their very survival depended upon them stopping the Sullivan Expedition into their heartlands.
In 1799, Arthur St Clair's in his defeat on the Wabash in present day Western Ohio lost 632 men in a single battle against Miami Chief Little Turtle's assemblage of warriors. The Indian force is thought to have numbered around 1,000, a huge force in context.
The Great Comanche (actually Comanche/Kiowa) Raid of 1840 here in Texas is thought to have involved around 1,000 Indians. Again a huge number in context, and likely only possible because it came right after the big 1840 intertribal peace treaty assembly at Bent's Fort.
2,000 armed Indian combatants in one place? Unheard of.
Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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A number of years ago, Wolfe Publications (Handloader and Rifle) published an excellent book on the Battle of the Little Bighorn. I've got it somewhere in my library, but can't find it now so I can't give you the name. Call or check with Wolfe. Also, ABE (American Book Exchange) has a large number of used Bighorn books for sale at great prices. see: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?kn=battle+of+the+little+bighorn&sts=t
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Well George Custer, got caught, he had no Idea what he was facing and the ground gave every advantage to the enemy! He lost the fight before the first shot was even fired, because he didn't know what was what, he lost the information battle and thus he lost when the shooting started, nothing new in this, he was not the first or the last to loose a battle! Its studied along with other Battles in other places at schools were they teach the profession of arms- its serious business, mistakes can cost you your command or worst yet lost of a Nation State. Besides I find his brother Thomas to be more interesting!
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Anton Chekhov
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I like the movie Little Big Man! The whole affair surrounding the campaign is one of some intrigue and WTF. There are some accounts that leave one wondering. But a good subject.
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Campfire Ranger
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I found 2 books on the Little Big Horn in my library:
1. "The 7th and the Sioux In the valley of the Little Big Horn - June 25-26, 1876 by Robert C. Kain, Beinfeld Publishing, 1969
2. "The Custer Fight - Captain F.W. Benteen's Story of the Battle of the Little big Horn, June 25-26, 1876", E.A. Brininstool Publisher. 1940
Both are excellent and might be found on the used Internet book market.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Well George Custer, got caught, he had no Idea what he was facing and the ground gave every advantage to the enemy! Ya, but such audacity had repeatedly served him very well in the War Between the States. Notable among these being his accepting 4 to 1 odds against his own force when charging JEB Stuart's Invicibles head-on at Gettysburg Custer may well have been a real tool on a personal level, but he compiled an exemplary combat record overall. And like I said, the likelyhood of 2,000 enemy combatants being present weren't too far removed from the odds of the Lakotas deploying A-10 Warthogs or something. JMHO, Birdwatcher
"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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Well George Custer, got caught, he had no Idea what he was facing and the ground gave every advantage to the enemy! Ya, but such audacity had repeatedly served him very well in the War Between the States. Notable among these being his accepting 4 to 1 odds against his own force when charging JEB Stuart's Invicibles head-on at Gettysburg Custer may well have been a real tool on a personal level, but he compiled an exemplary combat record overall. And like I said, the likelyhood of 2,000 enemy combatants being present weren't too far removed from the odds of the Lakotas deploying A-10 Warthogs or something. JMHO, Birdwatcher Those that malign Custer, know little of his accomplishments. When you hear of Gettysburg, you hear of Pickett, Lee, Chamberlain and so on. On the back side of the ridge, Jeb Stuart was attacking with several thousand troops and ran into Custer and the Michigan Wolverines, a total of around 500 mounted Cavalry and Custer turned Stuart and his larger forces back. It is interesting when you read more about this stuff, and find out what really happened, it changes your ideas about the battles and the combatants. The Indian force that Custer ran into on the Little bighorn was closer to 4000 warriors, a much superior number than had ever been know to assemble...
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You mentioned there are accounts of a couple survivors. I watched a show over the weekend that was called something like Lone Survivor of the Battle or something like that. The man lived in Washington State until he died in the 30's I believe.
Is this one of the survivors you are talking about? If so, do you believe his story?
There is little doubt that guy is a fake. The survivors of the battle that have been talked about, may never have survived to later years, but at least to have gotten away from Last Stand Hill...
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These were in 1971. I want to go back one of these days.
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Campfire Ranger
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Sharapnel I'd be happy to hear any input:
Relative to Custer and his judgement; I believe Custer legitimately had no reasonable expectation of encountering a camp containing 2,000 enemy combatatants (not including women and children).
Likely the largest Indian force present anywhere at any time on one battlefield across our whole 200 year plus Frontier period.
Just to put things into perspective; at the Battle of Newtown in 1779, the Iroquois could muster only around 900 effectives, even though their very survival depended upon them stopping the Sullivan Expedition into their heartlands.
In 1799, Arthur St Clair's in his defeat on the Wabash in present day Western Ohio lost 632 men in a single battle against Miami Chief Little Turtle's assemblage of warriors. The Indian force is thought to have numbered around 1,000, a huge force in context.
The Great Comanche (actually Comanche/Kiowa) Raid of 1840 here in Texas is thought to have involved around 1,000 Indians. Again a huge number in context, and likely only possible because it came right after the big 1840 intertribal peace treaty assembly at Bent's Fort.
2,000 armed Indian combatants in one place? Unheard of.
Birdwatcher There is so much about what happened previous to the battle that no one today is aware of. There were reservations all over the West with guardians to attend to the Indian Affairs on those reservations. They were also to have a count of Indians on these reservations and those numbers were what determined how many Indians were on reservations and how many they suspected weren't. There were over 10,000 Indians and 4000 warriors waiting on the Little Bighorn. For whatever reasons, the numbers were not accurate and it seemed that there were less "Hostiles" off reservations than there really were. Intelligence of the day would have led the U.S. Army to believe that the Indian forces would not be anywhere near the size it was due to bad information. Indian fighting in those days when it came to attacking an encampment, was not much more than a heated attack and sequestering non combatants to bring the warriors into submission. This had worked in all indian engagements of this type and there was no reason to suspect any different outcome at the Little Bighorn. When Reno attacked the south end of the village, he was met by an attacking force of mounted Indians, something never seen before and the battle went worse for the Army from that point...
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My old hunting partner A U Stanley was a friend of Crazy Horse (who gave him his first bow and taught him how to use it). Would sure be interesting to chat with A U about what Crazy Horse told him about that battle. (Why is it that we so often fail to appreciate our old-timers as sources of historical detail until after they die and can't be interviewed?)
Crazy Horse showed A U where they'd scuttled some of Custer's weapons, but A U refused to reveal that information. Off a bluff, into an extra-deep stretch of the river, if I remember correctly.
A U was a genuine Montana old-timer � came to Miles City with a cattle drive in 1895, when he was 16. Rode round-ups with Roosevelt's ranch hands. Broke horses in Mexico for Pershing. Had a memory like a tape recorder. Hunted with a .300 Weatherby in his nineties. I really miss the old geezer.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Looking for two or three good book recommendations about Custer and the battle. On a lighter note, when I first noticed the title of this thread, I figured Flave was posting improper pics of himself.
When its time to fight, you fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to get on Noah's Arc... and brother, it is starting to rain!
The chair is against the wall.
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Campfire Sage
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A Terrible Glory is an excellent book.
A good measure of how stupid a person is, or isn't, is their remarks about Custer. If a person has lots of negative schit to say about him, you can all but guarantee that person is an idiot.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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This is all extremely interesting & I've been to the battlefield several times & I'm sure I'll go yet again.
Read a few books that were very interesting but I'm neither a student nor an expert.
There is just too much information not accurately known to really know with certainty exactly what happened.
My only thoughts are that Custer was overconfident & reckless, had little advance knowledge of what he was heading into & was caught up in the moment. It's not at all clear to me whether or not he actually could have safely withdrawn or not & really had no choice in the matter.
Just because he pulled off an unlikely feat at Gettysburg doesn't mean it would happen in every circumstance & I tend to lean towards him being highly overconfident at the Little Big Horn. I may be being too harsh though.............
I'm going to get Donovan's books & read some more as they sound very interesting.
MM
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