this is a video of the LRHS, if your too board to watch the entire video fast forward to the 5 minute mark. look at how terrible that reticle looks at 3x. I don't know about you guys but I typically leave my scopes on the lowest power setting when I am hunting and only switch to high power if I need to use the turret and thus use the features of the reticle. Even if the scope is dialed to 4, 5, or 6, IMO the reticle still looks poor. This isn't because the optic is bad or even that the reticle is poorly designed, its just the nature of being FFP. I don't see why if your taking a long range shot why you would not be on high power with a scope like this. if thats the case why not have a more useable SFP reticle on low power where the scope is likely to spend most of its time in a hunting application.
Sometimes I think there needs to be a dose of reality. There is a ton of group think and pack mentality out there with people thinking the scope must be FFP. FFP has distinct disadvantages. Flame suit on,
Take a deep breath and relax bro. When I said that the reticle does not "grow" in size I should have said that the reticle does not cover more of the target you're aiming at. IOW, if your vertical (or horizontal) wire covers say 1/4 of an inch of target at 100 yards at 4X, it won't cover a half inch if you increase the power to 8x at 100 yrds. Make sense now ? That's the beauty of FFP reticles in that they can be used at any power setting and coverage values remain constant. Image and reticle increase or decrease is constant.
Well, I appreciate that sir. It's pretty obvious that folks here haven't actually used FFP scopes, at least on paper or used them to guesstimate holdover. I used to think the exact same thing as many here are saying when they say the reticle gets larger or smaller as you monkey with the power settings. Perhaps we're all just mis-stating what we're really trying to say, myself included. To me, it makes very little sense to have a mil (or any other type ranging reticle) in a variable power SFP scope as the hash values are only true at one power setting, usually the highest setting. Sure, you can do the math on the fly if you have very cooperative live targets, but I don't seem to have many deer in my hunting areas that are willing to stand there while I run the numbers through a ballistic program app on my cell phone. It's rare, at least where I've hunted whitetails, that they just stand there while I finger [bleep] a cell phone.
I hear you. My favorite hunting reticle here.....in a Elite scope. I think Bushnell used to call this a 3-2-1 before they added that glow in the dark crap to it.
hers some more info on wire vs etched reticles and ffp vs sfp
"There are wire reticles, and there are wire reticles, most often mounted in the rear focal plane because they can be small enough to prevent blocking out the target with their subtense. Some "wire" reticles are etched chrome foil, with thickness only around .001-inch, others are constantan wire up to .003-.005-inch diameter, some are flattened to give duplex(wide outer wires and fine intersection.) In most cases, wire forms are located in the second focus, where they are hard-mounted to the body tube, subject to shocks suffered by the outside envelope. Glass substrata contain (floating, seemingly unsupported) sight patterns of very small vacuum-deposited chrome lines or diamond-scribed and pigment-filled (for illuminated, low-light sighting) details, usually in the front focus. Front-focus glass is much more shock resistant than rear-focus wire, because the glass sits in the movable erector tube that cushions and softens recoil or field handling shocks with the bias spring installed to eliminate thread backlash and looseness in the E&W adjust screws. Also, the wire reticle is unsupported over a length up to .5-inch across the reticle frame (field stop in optical terms,) where the glass reticle with its substrate and cover plate is supported in the smaller diameter front focus by a sandwich that is nearly .25-inch thick."
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
RD, I can really dig that reticle in the Elite, but that Leica would need a dot in it for my 54 yr old eyes to use it. That Meopta 4C is a killer setup as well.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
leica too thin xhairs for me without some kind of illumination
Last edited by SAKO75; 12/30/14.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
...probably why Leica now makes the ERi scopes with illumination. I agree that the cross hairs would be better if they were thicker. Having the distance between the crosshair intersection and where the wider outer bar starts doesn't help matters either. One thing that is sort of strange and BobinNH noticed this as well with his S&B Summit, is that because of the superb optics in these scopes helps you see the reticle better in low light than you would imagine w/o seeing it. If the Leica had the same quality optics as say the Elites, the reticle would basically quit working altogether in low light. As it is though, it works better than you'd imagine in 99% of any 1/2 hour before/after sunrise/sunset condition. I haven't located the perfect scope yet where durability, tracking, glass/hydro coatings, ER and doesn't weigh 7 lbs etc...all come together in the same package. Here is a different view of the Leica plex reticle....
I use all 3 types (FFP,SFP & Fixed)in hunting applications and never had a problem with any of them doing the job...
I have experienced hunters using SFP scopes with BDC/Hash Mark reticles miss shots due to having their scope set on incorrect power settings which would not have occurred if their optic was FFP... Four just this year as a matter of fact... Ziess Z800, Leupy with LRD, Leupy with B&C and a NF with MV... I understand that these scopes aren't offered with these reticles in the FFP but if one chooses to use these HSLD reticles then one should also know how they work... Same goes with dialing for elevation... A guy needs to know where his turret is before he squeezes off... That happened this year as well... Hunter dialed for a 460 yd shot, shot didn't happen, closed the distance and missed a buck twice at 80 yds as his turret was still on 460 yd dope...
I've used the scope in the video quite a bit and at no power setting had a problem distinguishing my aiming point on the reticle including 3x... My FFP NF F1 at 3.5x I can still see my hash marks if I desired to do so, but on that power I don't see why a guy would need to see his 8 mil hash mark to make a shot...
Its all a personal choice for what a guy likes and chooses to use... IMO the FFP does have its advantages over a SFP in some hunting situations but either will work fine as long as the operator doesn't attempt something out of his pay grade...
YMMV...
Very well said...I have both and use both for hunting but could understand it if someone said they had trouble seeing a FFP reticle at low power when taking a shot in the dark timber. Good eye sight and practice go a long ways making hunts go well.
Good post. You would think guys dropping coin for hunts would pay more attention to this stuff.
Thanks Bob and I agree 110%...
Sad thing is, every year more and more guys show up, with their $6500 rifle, $3000 optic, Dope chart taped to the stock and think they are gonna run out and hammer stuff at 800 yds because they paid for the equipment to do it...Hell, they watched the video and the snakeoil salesman told them it'd do it... Most don't put in the time at the range, or prepare for the hunt to allow the stamina to stalk an animal... They show up in their new Kenetrek's ready to shoot long range without the ability to do so...
I love to see guys show up with their ?2.5-12? optic, duplex reticle, capped turret scope sighted in at 300 yds... Raggedy ole boots from miles of walking and ready to hunt... They are at PBR from 0 out to 350 or so and if its further than that we can creep in and get stuff killed... Those days are gone...
EHG: Well.....they aren't gone forever.
What you run into is a form of "target panic" aka a subtle form of buck fever brought about by a lack of preparation and too much to worry about when it comes time to kill.
All the technology is not always a benefit.
Despite reading about all these sexy European optics and hard built expensive turret twisting scopes, the simplicity of the Leupold VX3 keeps me coming back. I've been ready to roll out the dough for scopes costing 4x but when I think about what I would use them for while hunting it makes no sense to me. I'm not a good enough shot to take advantage of them and don't have a place to regularly shoot over 400 yds.
notice how the usual suspects pipe in and say oh you only shoot coyotes. without really a clue of what I do hunt, because I don't feel the need to brag about it to anyone. They are also the same ones who attack and accuse me of not knowing anything. whats funnier is they live in eastern states where heck it may not even be legal to hunt with a centerfire! Instead of admitting YES FFP does have some draw backs but in this case it worked better for me. I don't think they even watched the video I posted where the FFP reticle nearly washes out, good luck seeing that in low light!!! or even less than ideal light. if your reticle is a simple one that is basically a duplex and its a FFP reticle all this discussion really doesn't apply to your application. Thats because there aren't really any features your need to use on a basic reticle. a duplex reticle isn't that much different if its FFP or SFP.
Again I state I did not say ALL FFP scopes sucks. I just said ones typically used in a hunting application do. If you have a mega power scope that is 8x32 or something like that, YES get a FFP reticle in that scope, why because there is a high likelyhood of needing to turn that scope down. every application is different. but in a hunting application your going want SFP I stand by that.
Thats because there aren't really any features your need to use on a basic reticle. a duplex reticle isn't that much different if its FFP or SFP.
Again I state I did not say ALL FFP scopes sucks. I just said ones typically used in a hunting application do. If you have a mega power scope that is 8x32 or something like that, YES get a FFP reticle in that scope, why because there is a high likelyhood of needing to turn that scope down. every application is different. but in a hunting application your going want SFP I stand by that.
Some people don't even need a scope to shoot themselves in the foot, so for them it probably doesn't make any difference FFP or SFP.
jordan why don't you move the reticle in the picture over so its against the trees instead of the sky. I think it will show what I am saying. Also in the first picture I can't see those dots hardly at all. if you move the reticle to the trees in that picture its going to wash out.
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