Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics The bright scope - is it what you look for ? Why ? And How ?

Kodiak,
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<br>Just to make a clearer "picture" for you, I will try to make it more clear, so you can understand what the type of "woods" I am talking about. Maybe then you will have a better understanding. When I am talking hardwoods, I am talking 40 to 50 foot tall trees, some may even be higher. It is rare to see a limb less then 15 feet from the ground. The summer foilage on the tops of the trees are reaching for the available sunlight, therefor there is almost no growth on the ground, since the sun rarely gets to ground level. The tree's are anywhere from 10 feet to 30 feet apart. In the summer, when all the leaves are on, you would be hard pressed to find any sun reaching the ground. Since the only thing on the ground in the late fall are dead leaves, no bush of any kind one can SEE with their naked eyes anything and everything on the ground. Sitting or standing very still in these woods you can SEE, with your naked eyes, squirrels moving about, even at long distances.
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<br>Perhaps I didn't list enough info to make a "picture" for you.
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<br>I never said there was a right or wrong way to hunt. I did say there are many different methods employed based on the terrain. It isn't "MY" way of hunting these hardwoods. It IS however the most productive way of hunting these hardwoods. If you came here, hunted these hardwoods using your binocs you could place yourself as one of those non-successfull hunters. While you are looking through your binocs, the deer runs off, and you never have the opportunity to kill it. Unless, you have found a way to kill a deer watching it through binocs. If you have discovered a way to do that I would be more then interested in hearing it.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don

Don
<br>I'm wondering why you think PA has special trees that no one else has ever seen. Are they magic trees? It may be hard for you to believe, but your situation there is not unique to you(or PA) only. Did you not read my post? Do you know what mature oaks look like? Sounds a lot like your trees. Why do you think "your" hardwood forests are different from every one elses?
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<br>There is one thing though that we NEVER have to worry about. That is me coming to PA to hunt those magic trees with my binocs. I'll leave them to you and your kind.

Kodiak,
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<br>I "tried" to make it more clear for you but since "you" decided to not continue in an "even" exchange then "you" have dead ended the conversation, not me.
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<br>If you would even consider what I have tried to say, maybe we could have an exchange of information. I was suspect to you responding at all and my suspicions where correct. Sorry to say.
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<br>Your coy attempts have gone un-noticed.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don

Ki,Depending on how and what you hunt.I figure binos save as many deers lives as rifle slings.Good rule of thumb is to figure you have about 15 seconds to see judge and make the shot.If you pick up the binos first you dont have enough time to take the shot.I have used binos on western hunts but I use them in such a fashion that im not spending alot of time looking thru them.One thing you guys should know is that DK (Donknows) has 20/15 vision.His ability to spot game is beyone the normal big time.
<br>dave
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My vision is also 20/15 and KNOW that anyone open minded enough to give still hunting w/ good bino's a try would be amazed! I'm pretty dang good (if I say so myself ) at spotting critters and am always amazed at what appears when you use binocs rather than feet to hunt through an area.
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<br>Even when I spot something through binoculars, I often can't find them with the naked eye afterward. Binos allow you to "focus out" (technical term) what you don't want to see. Not to mention that you can see things 8-10x closer than with the naked eye. Spot that buck bedded behind the tree trunk with only a tine or nose sticking out at 300 yards instead of jumping him at 100.
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<br>Deer are excellent at blending in with their environment. Loads of fallen leaves on the ground can make it that much more difficult. Binocs simply make things appear -- yep, magic (grin)! A good trick when you are glassing in cover is to get down on your knees and scan for legs. Focus at a certain distance and scan. Focus further out and scan again. When you find them before they find you, you no longer have to worry about only having X seconds to make up your mind and shoot.
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<br>Seriously, though not Don's situation, I've been CLOSE to dozens of bedded or feeding bulls and bucks that I'll all but guarantee the next hunter would have either walked right by or busted out. This year I sat 40 yards from a big 5x5 for over 20 minutes before I decided to walk on by him.
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<br>It's simply a case of not using excellent tools that are available due to ignorance. Beings as Don is a S&B fan, I doubt that it there are financial reasons for not using good binoculars while hunting, simply too set in his ways to be willing to admit there may be a better way.

First Don
<br>You are the one who refuses to engage anyone on what they have posted. Here is my question to you. Why do you think your hardwoods are different from others? Why do you think no one else can comprehend what "your" woods look like? That is why I am asking you what makes your woods so different than any one elses? Unless there IS something magical about them, they are just like other hardwood forests, no? WHAT IS IT EXACTLY THAT I AM MISSING HERE??? You think anyone who hasn't hunted PA doesn't know what woods are?
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<br>7mm
<br>What do you think eyesight has to do with anything? May be you don't understand this, but if you see the deer before they see you, you have all the time in the world. Thats where hunting comes in. Not blinding loping through the forest shooting at what ever you kick up. I suppose binocs don't have any use if the goal is to jump shoot deer.

Don and anyone else
<br>This will be my last post on the subject as it is clear you have no desire to gain anything. I know several who have been doing it a certain way for so long they neither want to nor can change. Fine with me either way.
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<br>Many people don't have a clue as to how to use a pair of binoculars. Their primary mission is NOT to look at an animal you have already spotted. I'll repeat, they are not for looking at animals you already see. Their primary mission is two fold. One is to spot animals you would NEVER see with only your eyes. The other is to spot animals before they spot you.
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<br>A few years back, I shared a meat hunt with a successful bear guide on the south end of Kodiak. I felt pretty lucky hunting with this guide, as he is quite good with the bears. I though I might just learn something going after deer with this guy. I was WRONG. He didn't need binoculars. You know why? He could spot everything with his bare eyes. If he didn't see it, it wasn't there. I suppose that works fine for big bears, but not for deer. We were hunting in a very open area, no trees and most of the grass was gone. Pretty easy to spot a deer when its moving with your bare eyes. We topped over a ridge, when this guide takes a quick look around and proclaims no deer around. How did he know? He didn't see any, that's how. I tell him to take a seat and hang on a bit. I proceed to use the binocs and pick up seven (7) deer, two of which I shot. These were deer in the open that he never saw. If I hadn't pointed them out to him, he would have never known they were there.
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<br>If you are not using your binocs correctly, you don't know what you are missing. You may think you know, but you don't. I'll say it again, maybe the reason you're not seeing the deer is because you are not looking for them. If most of the deer you are seeing are spooked, you are doing something wrong.
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<br>Most people don't realize how little cover it takes for a deer to simply disappear. They never will either until they start looking.

I've followed this thread and have gotten some good info from it. I don't have a dog in this fight. BUT, I find it amusing how so many will say you do it your way I do it mine, but they keep trying to prove there way is better. In addition, I find it amusing that someone talks about others not being open minded enough to consider/admit that what they use is better than what some others use, but are guilty of the same thing on another issue addressed in a same/similar post.

Gees, what a thread!!!!
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<br>I guess I will throw my $.02 in.
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<br>I have gotten to look through and shoot many diferent scopes in my profession. I have got to compare and use many types of Binos as well.
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<br>IMO The Loopy scopes are just fine. Do they have THE very best clairity, color correctness and brightness, NO, of course not, but they are a great scope for what you spend on them. They are rugged and customer service is great. They are pretty much completely made in the US execpt for the lenses.
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<br>Are Swarovski S&B and some other of the High end model Euro scopes brighter, better in color correctness and clairity? Yes We all know that. But they cost a considerable amount more. Are they more rugged? That could be argued for ever. IMO they are real close.
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<br>It all depends on what you are doing with the scope!
<br>For what I use them for mostly and alot of my customers use them for, weight is not an issue, but ruggedness, click repetability and the clairity brightness thing is. 80 to 90% of the Tactical type shooters, Police and competetors use Loopy Tac scopes in one incernation or another. They work.
<br>There are some that demand an edge in the clairity game and price in no object. These people get and use some of the following high end scopes:
<br>Night Force NXS (super tough and super bright, clairity)
<br>S&B PMII (also super tough and super good glass)
<br>Horus vision (Glass on par with the S&B and Night Force)
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<br>Then there is US Optics. They weigh a ton and are huge and ugly. You can pay over $4000.00 for one. The glass is probably the best in the world for Clairity, color correctness and brightnes. They can have 38mm tube and 60 -80 mm objectives, although most are 50-60mm.
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<br>Can most people even tell some of the slight variations in color correctness and clairity, probably not. I have a very hard time telling between the high end premium scopes. I have a USN SN 3 in the shop right now. I have a NightForce NXS in too. Not much differance to me. I have to look and look to tell, but the USO does have an edge. Personally I dont feel that it has a $1500.00 edge on the NXS, but there are people out there that do.
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<br>See guys, it is all what one wants and what one is comfortable with buying and what it is getting used for.
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<br>My personal choices in rifle scope for my kind of shooting, wich is not hunting critters (although I do hunt) is
<br>1. Horus Vision because of the unique and super fast ranging holdover reticle coupled with the quality of glass.
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<br>2. Night force. rugged and super glass, with a very good ranging reticel NP-R2
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<br>3. Leupold 4.5-14X50 LRT modified by Premier reticles with a front focal plane zoom and a 2nd GEN mildot calibrated.
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<br>4. S&B PMII mildot.
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<br>These I list by features coupled with the price for the best package to suit ME and only ME.
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<br>I am in no way saying that any of them are THE BEST, but they are what I like.
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<br>I really like the baucsh & Lomb elite 10X binos. I think they are among the crispest and cleanest out there. They have a very good regulation so no headaches occur when glassing for long periods. I put them up to some Swarovski's and liked them much better.
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<br>Just MHO
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<br>Celt

You bring up a good point Celt. The bigger the exit pupil, the brighter the image, all things being equal. The fewer lenses in a scope, the brighter the image all things being equal.
<br> When you get to the top of the heap, it's time to look for features that make the difference to you, not the brand. E

Celt,Do you know who is making the Horus vision scope?
<br>Are you usuing yours with the handheld PDA ?What power scope is yours?
<br>dave

I believe the Horus scope are being made by the same place that makes NightForce scopes, but I am not 100% sure.
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<br>I dont have a Horus right now, but have seen them and have reports on them from real deal police snipers and the winners circle from Tactical matches. I have used the demo for ranging and from the above winners circles, it is just like it really works.
<br>I will use the PDA and software when I get it. That is my my next optics purchase. I am also looking into being a dealer of Horus scopes. I plan to have one on my partner's and my rifles for the upcomming SP Sniper challenge in 2003.
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<br>A word about scopes failing:
<br>All scopes can and do fail Period.
<br>First hand reports from Shooting school instructors and Police Sniper instructors verify this. two of my first hand sources in these fields have seen all scopes fail including Loppies, NightForce, Horus, S&B and US Optics and many others. It happens. They are just man made devices that can fail at one time or another, especially with what they get put through by the above mentioned people.
<br>A neat thing for all you big spenders out there.
<br>I hear rumor that the Horus Vision reticle may be becomming offered in some US Optics scopes.
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<br>FWIW
<br>Celt

Dave,
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<br>No use trying. Some guys wear blinders - all day. They stick those binocs to their eyes, roll their head from side to side - so the deer can detect their additional movements - they enjoy the very limited field of view - as deer see them long before they see the deer through their narrow vision of their binocs - and run off. They would never think that, with their naked eyes, they can see so much more around them based soley on the field of view the naked eyes offer. Maybe they all have "tunnel vision" and they can't see anymore without binocs as they can with them.
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<br>OR
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<br>Looking through their binocs they have just as much peripheral (new spelling) vision as any other person has without the use of binocs and they can pick up movement in as wide an area as others can with their naked eyes.
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<br>These "narrow vision" hunters really are something. They have such an acute awareness off all things around them - with their binocs stuck to their eyes - that nothing, and I mean nothing can ever slip by them. They look in a narrow area and see everything around them. They never ever had a deer suddenly appear behind them or in the opposite direction of where they are looking. It just doesn't happen if they use their binocs, lol. They only see bedded deer in an area where a bedded deer can easily be seen with the "naked eye". But they have the advantage of watching deer run off, never to be seen again, as they watch it through their binocs. Oh wait, they claim they can kill deer looking through their binocs,,,,amazing,,,,,,,stupidity, that is, LMAO
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<br>Then they wake up, it was all their dream, lol
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<br>They simply can't understand that more area can be covered in an area with their "naked eyes" versus restricting themselves through the narrow vision opportunities using their binocs.
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<br>I am SURE that as they walk along a RR bed, trees on both side and suddenly they see a deer jump out of the woods, they raise their binocs, not their rifle to LOOK at it and watch it disappear into the woods on the other side. To funny. Oh wait, I said raise their binocs, how silly of me, they have them epoxy glued to their eyes since thats the only way they can see anything. lmao
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<br>Such narrow vision people. Its amazing they ever kill a deer. Then again, their binocs kill the deer as they claim.
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<br>I really liked the part where if you don't use binocs your not successfull. I wonder if all the deer I kill would agree with them, lol.
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<br>It is to bad that these binoc boys are so narrow - minded.
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<br>Oh well, it was fun if nothing else.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don
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Celt,
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<br>Enjoyed reading your post. Some good info there.
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<br>When I compare optics I compare optics, not price. Seems to me that most people compare price more then they do the actual optical capabilities. The "price" may determine if one buys a particular brand and/or model but is a poor excuse in a comparison of the actual optical results obtained - my opinion.
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<br>Have a good one.
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<br>Don

Well with my budget I have to watch the pennies, but I too would compare optics and then look at the price and buy the best I could afford, if I would not compromise then I would just have to save up till I could afford the better of the models compared.
<br>Bill
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<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr><p>When I compare optics I compare optics, not price. Seems to me that most people compare price more then they do the actual optical capabilities. The "price" may determine if one buys a particular brand and/or model but is a poor excuse in a comparison of the actual optical results obtained - my opinion.
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<br>I'm sorry, but in the "real world" not everybody has unlimited funds and can afford Swarovski EL binos or can afford Leica Televid spotting scopes. Us working class slobs have to watch our pennies and "gasp!!" sometimes our checkbook limits us in what optics we can buy.
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<br>More and more I'm becoming convinced that people buy Swarovski's, Leica's, etc... for the snob appeal more than anything else.
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Don- Not to getting into a pissing match with you, but I don't see how you think that binocs could be of NO HELP in PA if you use a scope. Not saying that all circumstances would warrant using binocs, but you have to admit that in some cases even in PA still hunting they would be an asset. IMO, binocs allow a very similar advantage as a scope, it allows one to see things farther away, for a given yet different purpose, than they could with the naked eye. If you were touting that they were not needed and used non-magnifying sights I'd be better able to follow your logic. But to say that some that magnifies your vision for one task offers no advantage while touting that something that does a very similar thing...I just can't follow.
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<br>I do have a question, if you see something moving through the woods at 300yds and can't tell what it is, do you automatically throw up the rifle and check it out in the scope? Not all things at that distance, even in mature and relatively open hardwoods, are readily discernable.
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<br>BTW, I'm from IN and the hardwoods of IN are very similar to those found in PA and it was not uncommon for me to see more hunters than deer during opening weekend of firearms season.

Bill,
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<br>Thanks,
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<br>I to have a budget and I buy within my budget. I did save long to buy the optics I bought and for "me" I made the best choice.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don

Walking down a RR bed, jump shooting deer. Deer huntin' at its finest, eh boys.
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<br>True, no binocs needed for that.

Pointer,
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<br>First off, I hate "pissing match's" and have no desire to get into one with you or anybody else.
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<br>I don't beleive I ever said that binos are of no use in ALL circumstances. I agree, in some cases, as I have said many times, that binocs are usefull and do help. I tried to identify a specific case or cases where binocs add nothing, in fact detract from being successfull.
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<br>In answer to your question. If I saw something moving, in the woods, at 300 yards, and wasn't sure what it was I would either wait till it got close enough to see it or just watch it walk away. If it IS a hunter, they would be easy to see since ALL hunters here wear "blaze orange" as required by law. There are very few times when something is 300 yards away that one could get a bullet to it, in the woods, so it is of no use to get the scope on it, knowing what it is. I would watch it, see where it is going, hopefully closer to SEE it well enough to identify it, then IF it was a deer I would then get my rifle ready in a lane HOPING it would walk into that lane for me to kill it.
<br>Even if I used binocs to see it and identify it it really wouldn't do me any good if I couldn't get a bullet to it, would it?
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<br>I hear the part about seeing so many hunters on public property versus deer. In the national forest (public hunting land) one often times will see many more hunters then deer.
<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don