Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Speer bullets, why not much interest?

IME, Speer boat tails are a lot softer than the Hot Cores. I think the BT's are very similar to Sierra GK's, so it's not suprising that a 145 BT from a 7Mag at 50 yds would make a mess. IMO, the Hot Cores, at 3000 fps or less are excellent, effective bullets, even if they are not the latest technology.

Elk: sounds like you are pretty close to the situation. Can we safely assume that Speer is financially solvent, and will be around for a while? And could I tactfully ask how you have access to your info?

thanks.

You hit the nail on the head. Also The poster who mentioned the GoldDot line. They have put the largest portion of their "eggs" in that basket.

I have used a bunch of old and new Grand Slams in the .264 Win Mag at velocities from 2700fps to 3200fps. I test bullets in a ballistic buff. The 140 grand slam at 3150fps out penetrated EVERY expanding bullet from EVERY caliber except the .416 400gr partition that I have shot into it including 300gr .375 A-Frames and verious partitions. I have used that same load on over twenty deer and never recovered a bullet. I usualy shot the old grand slam at a hair over 3000 and the new one at 3150. I like the 140 hot core as a deer bullet but not anything bigger. I'm not knocking the partition but in the .264 the Grand Slam seems to have an edge. The 7mm 175 grand slam is an awsome bullet as well. reflex264

These are various .264 bullets from testing including the 140Grand Slam. This test was done in damp not wet media. The 400gr .416 partition has penetrated 27" in this same media. As the media mositure content goes up the 140 Grand Slam widens the margin.

Thanks for all the good posts. Guess I am not leary of using them. Not I have to see if my gun likes them or not, that will be the deciding factor.

I've been using 150 gr. hot cors in my 270 for over twenty years. Kills 'em dead. Never had a problem.

Elk is pretty well up on the Speer situation, having visited the factory within the past year or so.

The boattails are not only not Hot-Cors but have cores of a softer lead alloy. Makes 'em easier to form.

I tested some new 200-grain Grand Slams from a .300 Winchester Magnum in dry newspaper, my standard test for approximating what might happen if bone is hit. Two out of 5 lost their cores.

The standard flat-base Hot-Cor has worked fine for me on a bunch of animals, but they aren't usually as accurate as Sierra or Hornady cup-and-cores.

MD

My only kill with a speer bullet occured a few years back. i handloaded a 150 gr flat base in a .270 Win. The shot was a ridiculously close 15 feet, but straight down. I was in a tree stand in a thicket. It was pushed by 58 grains of H-4831. It blew straight through and at least a foot into the ground. (I dug down that far). It was river bottoms that are flooded many months of the year. It worked great. I sold that rifle and have not worked up same load in my new .270.

Mule Deer: What is your opinion of the Bear Claws?

thanks.

I have used Hot-Cors, Mag-Tips, and Grand slams for deer hunting deer for 20 years. Hot-Cors are excellent hunting bullets at or under around 2800 fps. Mag-Tips and Grand Slams are designed for hunting at higher velocities. The Mag-Tip is less costly than the Grand Slam and penetrates deeply and holds together very well. When I hunt with my 30-378 magnum at 3400 fps, I shoot Barnes TSXs.

Speer bullets are hunting bullets, not match bullets. Sierras are softer than Speers, and maybe a little better balanced. That's why they usually shoot a little better. When I want to shoot small groups in paper, I shoot Sierra bullets. When I want to kill game, I shoot Speer bullets.

IMO, Speer bullets are a little tougher and a little better in the terminal performance department for hunting than most standard-grade, cup/jacket hunting bullets. The higher the velocity, the tougher the bullet one should use on game. I know that's "bullets 101", but it never ceases to amaze me how often that simple fact is forgotten.

I've used Hot-cors for 30+ years with excellent results. I've taken numerous deer and a number of elk with 150's from my 270. Two years ago, to shot a bull elk with one in 180 gr from my 300 WSM. It was quartering toward me and the bullet went in just behind his shoulder, clipping the bone, and ended up in the far hip. It still had 80% of it's weight. Some years ago, I spined a cow with the 270. That bullet also retained most of it's weight but I can't remember the percentage offhand. I just remember that it was darn good.
Accuracy has also always been very good.

Dick

Speers parent company is ATK and they are doing very well financially. Speer is only a tiny component of what they do on the international level and they appear to be very content to have the LE market in a headlock with the golddot series of ammo. The Federal Fusion is basicly a rifle version of the golddot in concept anf I believe Federal was also taken over by ATK several years ago. The ATK list of holdings in the outdoor segment is incredible but they have allowed most to operate under the original names for brand recognition.

I think the best rifle bullet Speer ever put out was the Deepshok and I still hoard my last couple hundred for culling pigs. The .308/165 Deepshok was the most impressive bullet I have ever used at .308 speeds. The fact that is was only $15 per hundred made it even better. Speer stated they had problems manufacturing the bullet but I suspect that other members of the ATK family did not like the fact that a cheapo bullet was performing as well as the premium stuff like the trophy bonded at 1/5 the cost.

ATK makes most of their money thru government contracts, so yes they are financially stable. They do own Speer-Alliant Powder-RCBS-Federal and a host of others. ATK does set the budget for R&D and advertising for their umbrella companies, so lack of funds has hampered their growth. Fusion bullets were designed in Lewiston at the Speer plant, and there is more to them, than most of us "commoners" realize. The reason the Deepshok bullets were disco'd was that it cost to much to make compared to the price point they thought they could sell them at. The "new' Grand Slams are basically their Mag-Tip. You should have no worries using any of their hunting bullets on deer sized game, but with the exception of the TBBC, I think there are better bullets for their bigger cousins. I think that about covers it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I used Speer Hot Cors exclusivly when I lived in Wyoming. The 200 and 180 grain version worked perfectly on elk loaded to top 30-06 velocity. Good expansion and plenty of penetration. The 150 grain .277 version was my one and only bullet for my 270 loaded to 2800 fps out of my 20 inch barrel that bullet gave perfect performance if not always exit holes on many elk and I can't imagine a better mule deer bullet. If I were to pick just one bullet for deer out of my 30-06 it would be the 150 grain Hotcor, utterly reliable under all circumstances. Speer bullets are far underated, penetrate better than hornady's or Sierra's though I admit they are not always as accurate as those two.

I have had extremely good luck with the Speer version of the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. (Actually, I believe these are being made at the Federal plant, as they were when I visited that facility about 10 years ago, but maybe they are being made in Lewiston now.) In fact, I like them better than the original TBBC. That bullet often tended to open up into a ball at the front end, which did not tear up all that much tissue. The Speer version opens up to more of a flat-faced mushroom, and so tends to kills better, at least in my experience.

The only problem with the TBBC is the same one Barnes had for years with the pre-TSX X-bullet: A solid copper or copper-allow shank on any rifle bullet does not always agree with every rifle barrel. If the bullet's diameter and the bore's diameter match, they'll usually shoot very well. If not, then in my experience there's not much you can do about it.

If the shank was grooved, as in the TSX and North Fork bullets, then this wouldn't be a problem. Pressures would also drop a little as well.

MD

The only problem with the TBBC as I see it is they have a BC comparable to a cinder block. I know some will poo poo this comment, but for western type hunting IMO they are not ideal.
I did take a moose with a 140gr TBBC out of a .280 Remington with excellant results. Not a bang flop, but it only took a few steps, starting wobbling, then keeled over. of course moose are not terribly hard to kill.

I think the last 35 or so of all the deer and hogs I have killed were with Speer bullets. I use the .44 Mag 270 grain GDSP in my Marlin 1894, and the 170 grain hot core 170 grain 30-30 FP in my Marlin 336Y. Not a single lost animal, and no second shot needed. My family has eaten well with the help of Speer bullets.

I have been a Nosler man for years but I ran out just before hunting season and bought some 140 grain Trophy Bonded for the .270.Every bit as good as the Nosler Partition I used for many years...Maybe better but know two Elk react the same to similar bullet placement or caliber.

One of my son's best friends works for Speer in Lewiston and we have had a good intro into Speer bullets..Like others..Some are better than others..Some of there ammo sucks also....I would not hesitate to use Trophy Bonded in my .300 Win Mag from what I have seen with the .270..

Jayco

BWalker--

Would respectfully tend to disagree with your assessment of the TBBC's for western hunting. Not that they don't have a lower BC than many other bullets, but in my experience BC is way too exaggerated by most hunters.

Let us say, for instance, that a certain bullet has a BC of .350 (about the low end for a spitzer of decent sectional density) and another a BC of .500 (about the upper end for hunting bullets). Let's start them both at 3000 fps.

If we sight them both in at 200 yards, the .350 bullet will be 1.6 inches high at 100, while the .500 will be 1.5 inches high. (Numbers from the Nosler manual.) Out at 300 yards, the .500 bullet will be about 1" flatter, and at 400 about 3" flatter.

I was born in the West and have hunted big game out here for what will be 40 years this fall. In my lifetime the percentage of big game animals (out of all I've taken) that have been shot at over 300 yards is 5.6%. The two longest shots I've taken were both right around 430 yards. (Oh, and by the way, I have never failed to bag a big game animals shot at 350+ yards. Have missed a couple at 300-350, by holding HIGH.) Of those animals, 80% were deer, pronghorn and caribou, none of which require "premium" bullets like the TBBC.

Others' experience may differ, but this indicates to me that shooting over 300 yards is pretty rare, even in the supposedly wide-open West. (Or maybe not. Maybe others see game at 450-700 yards and immedately open up. Instead, I tend to try to get closer....)

Anyway, I have found BC one of the least meaningful statistics batted around by hunters. Generally any spitzer of decent sectional density started at 2700+ fps shoots plenty flat for most big game hunting. One of the animals I shot at 430 yards is a perfect example, a caribou killed by a factory 180-grain load from the .30-06.

MD

The 130 gr Speer SP was one of my go to bullets when I was shooting a 270. Worked great on the game I shot with it, mostly White Tails, Mule Deer and a few carabou. As for the TBBC, well I shot a lot of those, in every thing from 6.5 x 55's to 375 H+H. I still have some I bought from Jack Carter. One of the very best groups i ever shot with a rifle was with a .30-06, yes I have one, more like two, and 165 gr. TBBC out of a federal loading, I put a target out at 200 yards, My first shot was just about spot on, so I fired 4 more shots, well you could cover those 5 with a nickel! Ok that rifle had a good barrel installed and chambered by CPR. The Idea that a good hunting bullet will not shoot is well, I will not go there. Same thing for my 375. What John said is spot on, The tables and the numbers and all that stuff is fine, but when it comes down to it, in the field under reasonble ranges, you are not going to be able to hold rifle well enough for the difference to make a difference. There I guys that can, I sure can't. And when you start going much pass 350 yards it gets well interesting. Heck I made some of my best shots, with Round Nose Bullets!.

John, you very well could be right and probobly are! To be honest I have been out west several times and have yet to shoot anything over 200 yards and have only killed one animal over 350 yards in my entire career.
My comments about BC are based on the fact that this season I am going to have the opportunity to shoot some deer at what I consider long range(4-600+). There is simply no other way to hunt these deer than to setup for the long shot or I would be doing it. As a result I have been doing a little research on what it take to get er done at these ranges.
After looking at the tables on Remington's site the differance in trajectory was around 10'' at 400 yards of memory serves correct. That was comparing a Scirroco to a A-frame I believe. Thats a significant amount in my boook, but not really of relevance when a range finder is in use. What high BC bullets are good at IMO is limiting wind deflection. Trajectory is easy to dope, but the wind is not. At least thats been my finding when shooting at 600 yards off a benchrest.