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Yet realistic, in many cases.
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Wasn't it Col. Jeff Cooper that made the comment about using the handgun to fight his way to a rifle?
whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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...Clint Smith...and it ain't never going to happen. What you start with is what you are going to finish with.
Bob
If you can not deal with reality, reality will deal with you....
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Campfire 'Bwana
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...Clint Smith...and it ain't never going to happen. What you start with is what you are going to finish with.
Bob This is a true, factual statement. ^^^^^^^^^ Wasn't it Col. Jeff Cooper that made the comment about using the handgun to fight his way to a rifle ?
whelennut I do not think the colonel would have said something this stupid. ^^^^^^^
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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...Clint Smith...and it ain't never going to happen. What you start with is what you are going to finish with.
Bob This is a true, factual statement. ^^^^^^^^^ Careful with the absolute statements John. You guys climbed all over me for making one. I gave a factual account earlier in this thread where two College station Officers, trying to get to the fallen Constable Bachman, returned fire coming from the murderer using their Glock 23's, retreated to their patrol units and transitioned to their shotguns.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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...Clint Smith...and it ain't never going to happen. What you start with is what you are going to finish with.
Bob This is a true, factual statement. ^^^^^^^^^ Careful with the absolute statements John. You guys climbed all over me for making one. I gave a factual account earlier in this thread where two College station Officers, trying to get to the fallen Constable Bachman, returned fire coming from the murderer using their Glock 23's, retreated to their patrol units and transitioned to their shotguns. Since this is not a law enforcement web sight I cannot see a civilian in that unique situation. Con you?
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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An exception does not negate a truism.
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As a side note once it comes to extended ranges I am more accurate with the glock than hoping a 00 lands somewhere on the bad guy. If we had slugs or other than a bead sight I might feel different about the SGN.
There is also a big difference between getting to your rifle during the fight and coming in as a secondary unit and deciding what to deploy.
In the last shooting we had I was the second one in. I made a conscious decision that if I still heard shooting when I arrived I would get out with an AR, if I did not hear shooting I would exit with just a trauma kit and my pistol to have greater flexibility. On other cases the rifle is in my hand when I bail out of the car.
I see guys carry extra trauma kits with medical equip, extra mags etc but if it is not attached to you when you get out of the car it is unlikely you will be able to retrieve it and use it in a timely fashion. I carry 3 pistol mags on my belt and a 20rd AR mag and trauma kit in my cargo pocket at all times.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Campfire 'Bwana
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An exception does not negate a truism.
+1.....
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire 'Bwana
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As a side note once it comes to extended ranges I am more accurate with the glock than hoping a 00 lands somewhere on the bad guy. If we had slugs or other than a bead sight I might feel different about the SGN.
There is also a big difference between getting to your rifle during the fight and coming in as a secondary unit and deciding what to deploy.
In the last shooting we had I was the second one in. I made a conscious decision that if I still heard shooting when I arrived I would get out with an AR, if I did not hear shooting I would exit with just a trauma kit and my pistol to have greater flexibility. On other cases the rifle is in my hand when I bail out of the car.
I see guys carry extra trauma kits with medical equip, extra mags etc but if it is not attached to you when you get out of the car it is unlikely you will be able to retrieve it and use it in a timely fashion. I carry 3 pistol mags on my belt and a 20rd AR mag and trauma kit in my cargo pocket at all times. +1...
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Since this is not a law enforcement web sight I cannot see a civilian in that unique situation. Con you? That's a red herring. This whole argument got started because someone attributed the notion of using their side arm to fight back to their long gun to LEOs, not non-LEOs. And, of course, the notion was immediately dismantled and called ridiculous. Add to that that Clint Smith gets as many LEOs in his classes as non-LEOs. I readily agree that incident I described is a very rare occurrence. I doubt that one like it occurred within a year of it on either side, a year before or a year after. It's rare...but it did happen. Given the number of LEOs in the US, LEOs use of deadly force is relatively rare; but they are sensationalized by the media.
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We used to talk about "one shot stops" all the time as the ideal for defensive pistol performance. But, I think more recently professionals have mostly given up on the idea. Most of what I hear now is that you will likely have to shoot several shots to put somebody down, and that they won't fall/stop immediately no matter what pistol round you hit them with. Most shot with a pistol have a good chance of survival.
Many (most?) people have gone to 9mm because they hold lots of rounds and they can put multiple rounds on target accurately and quickly. This is a big change from the way people used to look at this issue.
That said, the last I heard, the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP is still the most likely one shot stopper out there. Better than everything else, even larger calibers like .41 and .44 Magnum.
"You cannot miss fast enough to win."-- Ross Seyfried
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There are lots of reasons I don't carry my Marlin .45-70 with hot Marlin-power loads as my standard defensive weapon but at ranges of more than a few yards I would take it any day over the semi-auto pistols I do carry. It may not kill instantly but it sure as hell will take the fight out of an attacker and there isn't much in the way of concealment that would qualify as protective cover.
Just saying, comparing rifles to handguns as daily-use defensive weapons in an urban environment is kind of pointless as the handguns are far better suited to that type of work - which is why everyone chooses them.
When the girls were young and we took them camping in the NF, my Browning B92 .44 Mag was a constant companion. Loaded with 10 rounds it was adequate protection against predators of both the two- and four-legged variety. But that was a very different environment than urban defense.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Fighting your way back to a shotgun is even more absurd than fighting your way back to a rifle.
If they ran through gunfire to get a shotgun, then ran through gunfire back to where they were, what did the shotgun offer them that a pistol didn't that warranted all that?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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... what did the shotgun offer them that a pistol didn't - that warranted all that? What the shotgun offers - more than a pistol or any other type of firearm is not the 'firepower' - but, the distinctive 'sound' of a slide-action shotgun being cycled - which in turn causes instant fear and paralysis to your assailant. I thought everybody knew that.
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Insert "sarcasm" thingy here... right?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
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Years ago I worked in Killeen Texas with the pd there.
I still remember my partner handing me the 12 gauge pump and he grabbed the m1 carbine saying "Don't let me see you pull that 45 unless you run out of shotgun shells!"
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Fighting your way back to a shotgun is even more absurd than fighting your way back to a rifle.
If they ran through gunfire to get a shotgun, then ran through gunfire back to where they were, what did the shotgun offer them that a pistol didn't that warranted all that? I think you just like to argue. They didn't try to get back to the Constable, who was deceased, though they didn't know he has deceased at the time. They, of course, stayed behind their patrol units with shotguns trained on the house where the murderer was still barricaded and waited for the SWAT team. The reason they approached the Constable's body to begin with is because they didn't see an immediate threat, like the murderer standing on his porch with the rifle he killed the constable with. He shot at them just as he had killed the constable; he shot through his front door and front screen door. Had the murderer made the decision to charge the two patrol cars he would have run into a virtual storm of 000 Buck shot.
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I prefer to call it a spirited debate. It sounds so much nicer that way.
What those guys did wasn't fighting their way back to a rifle (or shotgun).
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I prefer to call it a spirited debate. It sounds so much nicer that way.
What those guys did wasn't fighting their way back to a rifle (or shotgun). Agreed, more like they retreated
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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