Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game How much energy do you want to hit the Elk?

With a 160 Gr Nosler Partition, how much energy needs to hit the elk in the kill zone? Do you need more for a gut shot (not that I'd ever make one) [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<P>I'm thinking of switching ammo to tighten up my groups. Is there a better bullet/gr for long range elk hunting?<P>Nate

Nate energy is of no realistic value in determining what "killing power" is. jj

Folks get killed in plane wrecks because of energy.Crashworthiness consists of a design that lets parts of the plane break away thus reducing the weight of the part with the people in it.G forces are determined by three things and three things only:Weight,velocity,de-celeration time.<P>To reverse the process and kill something,you want a heavy object traveling at high speed and dont let it break apart.The damage to the object[ bullet]will be the result of the de-celeration time and the medium in which the velocity is shed.<P>Energy is a reliable indicator of killing power when viewed in conjunction with other components of killing power.Drop a brick on your hand from one ft.,then from ten feet.If your hand is on a stout table in both instances,the only difference is energy and in this instance the increased energy comes strictly from an increase in velocity.<P>Ken Howell appointed me to cover for him in his abscence.grin

Gene, <P>A most apt description and a great analogy. Without velocity,a bullet cannot transmit any energy.<P>Now as far as the original posters question,"What is a good gut-shot load for Elk?"(to paraphrase). I'd say there isn't one. As far as a good "long range" Elk load,he left too many variables undisclosed. <P>Foremost,what is HIS idea of long range. Second,at what speed is the 160gr Partition launched(I assume it to be a 7mm of some flavor). Third,what kind of accuracy and at what specific distance,is the present load capable of?<P>Going out on a limb and guessing the rifle in question to be a 7mmRemMag,I'd personally opt for a 140gr XLC,regardless of distance. That load is a proven performer,by me,but it isn't a magical combination. A gutshot,is still a sheety shot,regardless of projectile selection or media hype favoring a cannon of some type. Placement first,"power" second.<P>My suggestion,is always the same. Use a rifle you can shoot well and employ a bullet up to the intended task. Weigh maximum effective range,first on your abilities and secondly,on the actual rifle/cartridge combo(retained energy/impact velocity at extended range). My focal point,would be to improve my abilities until they exceeded the potential of the rifle. THEN it is time to look for,bigger,badder,mostest,greatest,fastest,etc. <P>Extended distances require much more,than a specific projectile recommendation. I prefer a lesser dose of high precision,than great excesses of "energy" and less precision. As distances become greater,the ability to deliver highly precise placement,becomes paramount. That is the key,as it always has been.<P>So I'd choose a ruggedly constructed projectile,that has proven itself highly accurate,in that particular rifle. Without those attributes,things rapidly become sloppy and that is to be avoided at all costs(in my opinion).........

Here we go again!<P> [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

I think the more appropriate question is "what causes death"? and in my humble opinion that boils down to shock and blood loss. Any animal that is 'gut shot' usually goes quite a way until the blood loss is cumulative to induce shock and death...<P>Most American hunters are too concerned with their marksmanship, and lower the rifle to take a look at the effect of their shot. It is a hard habit to break, ingrained by many trips to the target range. In Africa I learned to 'pump'm again'... and I practice this drill often..

OK...I left some things out. To clear it up...Big Stick is right...7mm rem mag. I'm pretty confident with my mod 70 out to 450 yards. The gut shot part was just a joke...I plan to hit the vital areas in the chest. I currently shoot 160 gr, Nosler Partitions (Federal). I am thinking of switching to 160 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. This is the bullet that Federal recommends for elk. I can understand it for close range (200 yards) but not for long range (Out to 450 for me).<P>Nate

Zzzzzzzzzz.........

Based on the tone of the responses here, I assume that this forum is strictly for experienced hunter/shooters to gather and BS amongst themselves. No room for beginners. Therefore, I am not welcome here. Thank you very much for the few things I gathered here. See ya.<P>Nate

Nate don't go, it's just that this subject comes up rather regularly and some of the "old timers" BS'ing have had this bout over two or three different forums in the past 3-5 years. It's nothing personal mind you just a little sarcasm over the subject matter. Kinda of like the old "Which is better the 30.06 or .270?" threads! Everyone knows the .270 is far superior [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img]<P>Mike<P>Hang around we'll have you corrupted in no time!!

Nate,<BR>Whoa....<P>ask a silly question, get a silly answer??<BR>folks are just trying to help you out here...<P>I actually thought your question was quite interesting. Have you ever heard of "Taylor factors"... which is basically a formula to calculate the relative knockdown power of various cartridges..

Nate, Don't take off. Your assessment is probably accurate on some levels but I for one would be perfectly happy to discuss this with you either her on through my Email off line. <P>I think the reason for the responses to this which may seem "cold" or "arrogent" are due to the frequency they appear here and the huge debates they generate. Don't take what was posted personal, and don't take this personal, but when you post about not being an "expert" or "experienced" yet talk of being good enough to shoot big game to 450 yards it is a bit of a conflict. Few people in the whole world can make those shots regardless of what they claim or post here.<P>There are those who do make them and are good at it. But they also shoot more in a week than the average guy who thinks he can make those shots, shoots in a year. For example I shoot several thousand rounds a year from hunting rifles and I would not shoot at 450 yards at any big game animal. There are about a 1000 things that can happen when you shoot over 300 yards and only one is good, Feel lucky? <P>So don't give up on us, you will not find a better group on the net to chat with. The guys here know their stuff and will help, just give it some time and let the rude comments blow over (I do). jj

and all of us know that Ready has his middle finger up his nose (to the 3rd joint)...

Deja-vu. "How much energy does it take" may sound like a simple enough question, but there really is no simple answer.<P>You can kill an elk with a muzzleloader that delivers less than 1000 ft-lbs. A heavy .54cal conical will punch a great big hole all the way through, so it doesn't take much. Plus, you will be doing it from less than 100yds, so precise shot placement should be easy. <P>Some people might say 1000 or 1500 ft-lbs, but you can't consider those numbers without considering exactly how the bullet transfers that energy. Shoot an elk with a small caliber TB bear claw that only has 1000 ft-lbs of energy and it will probably fail to expand and act like a solid, resulting in a wasted elk. Every bullet will act differently with different amounts of retained energy. What is relevant is exactly what the bullet does when it transfers that energy, not how much it has when it strikes. <P>The fact that you offered the "joke" about how much energy it takes to kill a gut-shot elk suggests that you might not understand what kills the elk. "Energy dump" or shock or whatever you want to call it does not kill, blood loss kills, and a gut shot doesn't cause enough blood loss, period, regardless of how much energy the bullet had. Yes, you must transfer energy to kill, but more important than HOW MUCH is WHERE and HOW you transfer it.<P>I think the best answer is that your shooting ability will probably run out before the bullet's ability to kill does. Another good rule of thumb is: if you are worried about it, then it's too far. -al

StevePP,<P>I very much appreciated your response. You and Big Stick gave me the info I needed to further my research on an elk ammo.<P>JJHack,<P>I am new to hunting...not new to shooting. I AM confident with my 7mm out to 400 plus yards. Acctually 425 is my limit and 450 would be an exageration. I understand the skeptisism...in the Army, my squad leader used to tell me that I was missing the paper two out of three shots. He just couldn't believe that anyone could shoot better than him. Nature of the game, I guess.<P>EllieMae,<P>I am not worried about this. I am trying to find a better bullet to push through my rifle for a game animal I have never pursued. Bleeding kills animals and I have seen gut shot animals die. My question about the energy needed was dirrected more at how to break any bones that get in the way so that the bullet can get into the vitals. I am not looking to shock the animal...just want a nice bullet that can penetrate and expand properly to rip the snot out of his innards.<P>If I'm not concerned with energy of the bullet, what will tell me it's bone crushing capabilities? Is a NP better than a TBBC at breaking the shoulder or rib at long range (backed down to 425 yards, but more likely to be 300 yards). I WILL place the round efficiently or I'll pass on the shot.<P>For those who read this stuff everyday...I appologize. I wasn't hunting elk the last time it came up and my Nosler Partition worked fine for deer.<P>Nate

You said you were new to hunting, not new to shooting. It sounds like you view the two as if they are the same thing. They are not.<P>I don't doubt that you are a good shot at the distances you claim. But the reason many people here and elsewhere try to discourage long shots on game is because shooting game is different than shooting paper, in may ways. The elk could move, paper doesn't. The wind could gust, although I guess that could happen with paper. At the range you are relaxed, in the field you will probably be worked up from exertion and/or excitement. If something happens and you throw a flyer at paper, you lose nothing. The same isn't true if it happens when hunting. If any of these things happen, you waste an elk and go home in shame. We owe more consideration to the game. <P>Another thing to consider is what you will do if the first shot doesn't hit its mark. At those extreme ranges, once the animal is moving or out of your sight, and now that you are in a hurry, a followup shot might be difficult or impossible.<P>And really, contrary to popular belief and all the magazine BS, elk hunting does not require long-range shooting, anyway. This notion that elk hunting must be done at long range or you go home empty-handed is nonsense. People think that the only way to hunt elk is to sit on a ridge and glass the opposite canyon wall or open country, and then shoot from wherever they are. When the pressure is on, they go into the timber. That is the easiest place to hunt them, IMO, and shots are close. Even if you do spot them first by glassing across a canyon, what's wrong with watching where they go and stalking them before the shot? You'll have to find a way over there anyway. They are not as jumpy as deer, and relatively easy to stalk if they're not alarmed. Just ask all the successful ML and bowhunters. There are plenty of people bagging elk during general season, on public land, shooting them in the trees at short distances. All you need to do is to get a call and talk to them and keep the wind in your face. <P>Ultimately you have to make your own decisions about how much risk you want to take. I just hope you will consider these things. <P>Regarding bullet choice: The NP has a soft nose that can and most likely will shed, at least partially, with the protected core always holding together to penetrate. Worst case scenario is about 60% weight retention - on close shots at very high velocity. I recovered one 160gr partition from a young bull that I shot almost lengthwise from 50yds with a 7mm RM. After penetrating several feet, the bullet was picture-perfect and weighed 110gr. I can't imagine a tougher test of a bullet. Of course, at long range it will probably not shed that much weight. The TBBC won't shed it's nose like a partition, but at the same time might require more velocity to expand. I don't have personal experience with the TBBC, so all I can say is it is considered a very tough bullet. A guy here by the name of Flinch swears by them. <P>This is the problem with bullet selection. You want one that will hold together on the close shots, yet still expand on the longer ones. No bullet can do it all, so any choice will be a compromise. You are doing good to stick with 160gr. I think either the NP or the TBBC will do fine.<P>-al

I hear what your saying about stalking and getting in real close. That's the FUN part of the hunt! Believe me, I will get as close as I can and keep my shot as close as I can.<P>I also hear what your saying about the excitement or adrelelin of the hunt compaired to paper targets. I try to practice as much as I can on coyotes. It provides for the realistic movement of the target, but it does not do anything about the adrenelin rush. Since it's my first elk hunt, I have that to consider.<P>All else being equal though, I want to be sure that I am not worried about bullet performance if I need to use my shooting skills. At this point, that is my concern. I would like to tighten up my groups with a handload at some point and I'll probably learn more about ammunition at that time. Today, I am looking for a good ammo, out of the box, to kill an elk with.<P>Thanks for the indepth explanation.<P>Nate

Well nate, these guys are right, but there is one thing I would like to add. I never use taylor factors because it has almost no root in mathematical logic. Try this instead. It is only relative, but once you use it enough, it can help a beginner to understand the power of different loads. It is better to compare different calibers though. Still remember that it all comes down to shot placement and good bullet construction.<P>1.<BR>(Muzzle Velocity)(Muzzle energy) <P>Multiply them, or use Vel or E at given range. This gives the basic energy.<P>2.<BR> (MV)(ME)<BR>-----------------------<BR>diff of weight from 1000<P>Then divide it by the difference from the bullet weight and 1000. I do this because otherwise a heavier bullet would calculate to less energy otherwise. This gives your energy per grain of your bullet. Basically it tells you the total energy in your bullet.<P>3.<BR> total energy<BR> ---------------------------------<BR> diameter (caliber) of projectile<P>Then divide by the difference of your caliber from 1000. This tells you how the energy will be put into the target. That is, diameter of projectile can ususlly tell you how much of the eneergy will be expended into the target (once again, this depends on bullet construction, but all things being equal...).<P>Here is your final equation:<P>(Muzzle Velocity)(Muzzle Energy)<BR>--------------------------------- = Total <BR>difference of weight from 1000<P> <BR> Total<BR>-----------------------------------------<BR>difference of diameter (caliber) from 1000<P>Now, for an example, we will compare a .338 Win. with a 338-378 using a 225 gr factory load in the 338-378 and a 230 factory from the 338 win<P><BR>.338 Win:<P>(2780)(3948) <BR>------------- = 14253 <BR> 770 <P> 14253<BR>---------- = 21.53<BR> 662<P><BR>338-378 Wby:<P>(3180)(5052) <BR>------------ = 20729 <BR> 775 <P> 20729<BR>--------- = 31.31<BR> 662<P>Remember, everything is relative so you will have to do some experimenting. For handguns, I multiply my answer by 10. By doing this there is a direct coorelation between the most powerful factory rifle and handgun loads. The 460 Wby and the 475 Linebaugh. Pretty interesting, huh? If you correct the handgun numbers, they cannot be directly compared to rifles, but you can use their relative power to think about the relatve power on the other side of the spectrum.<P>If anyone has a way that you think that I could improve this, please let me know. I developed this equation a while ago when I became interested in guns but had noone to talk about them with. I do not believe that it is skewed in any fashion as the Taylor is to large slow bullets. The problem is that a brick at modest velocity SHOULD, according to taylor, drop a rhino dead in his tracks. I tried to develope something that was in the middle of the Velocity/Energy debate while still keeping its mathematical integrity.<P>Once again, let me know what you think, <P>Chris

CAZ, an interesting twist on Taylor, but effectively similar...<P>Nate, a good bullet sounds like the key to your question, The Nosler Partition, Swift A Frame, Barnes X all have fans and detractors..<P>My experience is more with African stuff, Eland, Kudu, Buffalo, Elephant.. for which I preferred heavy round nose bullets.. and the shots were typically 75-200 yards..<P>However, I meant shock in the medical term, as in drop of blood pressure, convulsions, heart palpitations, irregular breathing, drop of body temperature etc... and it will kill an animal.

Intereting formula, Chris. I'll work the numbers and see if it tells me anything.<P>Steve...Killing an animal by putting him into shock is not my goal, but I agree that it will kill an animal. Maybe I could coax an elk into some really cold water..what do you think? LOL! Really, though...I'd rather take a lung out and kill him humanely. By the way, thanks for the e-mail...I am glad I returned for this great information.<P>Nate