Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Something from a thread

Some buddies of mine called me last winter to go with them in search of some varmints to kill. One of them had a 17HMR CZ rifle and the other had a 223WSSM Black Shadow. Both of these guys are good offhand shots within 100 yards as I have seen them shoot and kill stuff. When shots presented themselves at further distances, neither of them knew how to connect. They had no idea about the trajectory of the loads they were shooting. Shooting at crows was a guessing game of hold-over. I had a trajectory printout for my load and zero. I think that this simple bit of planning puts us in the minority concerning most hunters. They just don't know any better.

One of the best shots I ever made as a kid was shooting a crow off the back of a whitetail that I had just dropped in a pipeline right-of-way about 180 yards away. The crow flew down and started pecking on the exit hole. Due to the positioning of the deer's body, I had to shoot the crow in the neck or head to avoid hitting the deer. All the old timers back at the deer camp got a kick out of my head-shooting a crow off a deer. When I told them I actually had to hold low at that range, they did not understand why. I tried to explain about the trajectory, but they could not grasp the concept. Maybe that is why they hunted on lean-to stands in the woods.

I can't help but wonder why, of all the people represented by "most of the hunters", not a single one of them ever shows up around here.
Other than me that is. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

i'm with mickey on this one, sorta....

but please, PLEASE, don't shoot my refrigerator.... even if you can..... john w

it may be the one thing in the house that i'm emotionally tied to....

Knowing what your equipment can do is great, but you still have to do your part. Now if I could just figure out how to factor that out of the equation, I would be set <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I used to pace off the various distances around my hunting spots and mark the increments with flagging. I sure am glad Al Gore invented them laser rangefinders <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Shooting/connecting is as easy as one wishes it to be.

Basic concepts,fueled via sound equipment,will really accelerate the learning curve and sweeten the pot by making practice fun.

The once "impossible",rapidly becomes routine...................

Mickey is dead on, I was at my range last night and two guys were checking their new Savage kit guns from the boresighting. They were shooting at 25 yards, neither were good shots, they announced they were good to go, I suggested they shoot the suspended chicken at 200 metres just to make sure. The first guy was about 18 inches low and a foot left. I adjusted his scope, he managed to hit once in the next four(the rest were just around it). It was too painful for me to watch anymore so I told him he was good to go on Minute of moose. The other guy was roughly the same, he never hit the chicken, but was all around it. These two guys are getting ready for moose season here and felt confident hitting a 4 inch circle at 25 yards.

I've found that most men want to believe they are a great shot, an ego thing for sure. But have seen many who desperatly would not admit to needing a lesson or two at longer ranges. Some I have met at public & private ranges are very testy in attitude when proferred advice. "They know what they are doing". Usaually if I can work into the conversation about being a former Marine Scout Sniper, without it looking like bragging, many become a bit more responsive to my suggestions. Those of us who know how to shoot need to educate those who do not, if and when the more ignorant are willing and or able to listen. Sometimes though it is just not possible.

Rob

I've been lucky in that most that I've approached to offer help, have been receptive ... Then again, most of the time I keep to myself, unless I see someone seriously struggling ... and I don't just walk up and say "here, let me help you" ... I usually strike up conversation about admiring their rifle, and get it going that way ... we then walk out to the targets and they see nice little groups on my paper, and get intrigued ... then it becomes VERY easy to aid them ...

another thing that helps bolster confidence in others that YOU know what you're doing, is when they see your boxes of handloads ... I think most are astute enough to realize that someone that is handloading probably knows more than the guy who knows only that they "picked up a box of shells from the store on the way to the range" ...

and lastly ... it also helps if you don't try to offer advice or aid to people that are having fun being jackasses, or seem to be people who simply do not want to be bothered at all ...

Gimme a guy that ain't a retard and I can have him easily 1MOA-ish at 700yds,in 10 practice pokes,the next 3 for keeps.

If Steelhead can do it.....................(grin)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Knock that off--I am at work!

BMT

Steelhead thinks that since he's had a "turret lesson", he can do anything ... even catch those 19 year old wimmenz he keeps babbling on and on about ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

+1 on that statement!

I find that If I set my targets down behind me so they show several tiny groups, I usually will get some inquiries on just how did I do that. Especially if they see those targets and happen to notice I am shooting from field positions. Others though pay no attention to that kind of thing yet still I wil usually try to help if possible when I notice someone doing poorly. It's usually best to observe someone for awhile though and try to get an idea for their personality, before approaching. And then do as WGM states about striking up a conversation about their rifle.

Rob

I have been assistant rangemaster at Sight-In-Day at the Emerald Empire Gun Club (my home range). It is friggin' scary.

Most impressive are the guys who shoot one -- adjust, shoot one -- adjust, shoot one, adjust etc. until a round randomly hits the bullseye. They then delcare themselves ready!

Of particular interest was a guy who shot up his 150 grain green box ammo sighting in, then placed 180 grain federal premiums in his rifle, and went hunting. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I was unable to let him in on the fact that his 30-06 might shoot to a different point of impact.

I was too busy keeping a guy from killing himself as he tried to "fetch his hat" which had blown downrange.

Yeah, some days are a little tense.

As for your ability, CAS. You shoot so much and have attained such a high level of proficiency, that you are irrelevant to these discussions of the common man.

I once read a post where you opined that you shoot more than 99% of Amercians. That is BS Dude.

The Campfire regulars do that much. You shoot more than 99% of the Campfire members.

My Dad, the scientist, would classify you as "Statistically Irrelevant." (That's a compliment, you are on the hi end).

Face it, you don't count. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Good Shooting,

BMT

"I couldn't like being anywhere near 3.3" high at 100,for any reason,in any chambering,upon any Critter.

I'm a fan of placement.................. "


so am I but IVE KILLED ENOUGHT ELK in the last 37 years to know theres not going to be any effective differance in the results if a bullet from almost any gun in camp hits within 2" of its intended impact point on an ELKS CHEST




Id still suggest that dropping them due to the destruction of the arteries above the heart and lungs, and getting an exit wound for rapid blood loss, is to be prefered ,dropping them quickly and surely with a single fatal shot,or hitting them hard enought that it only allows only a short run ,or staggering around in place after impact, getting that first mortal hit is in my opinion more important than dropping the game instantly, but I sure don,t want game running off or even moving very far from the bullet impact point, and Ive yet to see and ELK or deer run more than a few yards with the top of the heart and lungs destroyed, while they may stagger around for a few seconds they don,t seem to go anywhere hit that way, and if they did the blood trails HUGE
dropping them in place is prefered but dropping them 100% OF THE TIME WITH THE FIRST SHOT IS THE GOAL EVEN IF THEY TRAVEL A SHORT DISTANCE, shot placement is NOT SO darn critical that a bullet hit that 2" an any dirrection from its intended impact point will effet your results on an ELK,
the area containing those arteries above the heart is easily 6" in dia fom any reasonable angle



I also have a laminated card taped to the rifle stock with the drop data for my specific load and site in data, from 100yards to 500 yards in 50 yard intervals, and a lazer range finder.
the data looks like this for my load
range drop...tof............10mph wind drift
100...+3.36........................
200.. +3.46...2 tenths........2.7
300....-1.91... .35 tenths....6.3
350.....-7....... .41 tenths....8.7
400....-13.8.... .48 tenth.....11.6
450....-22.4.... .55 tenths....15
500...-33.1.... .63 tenths.....18.3
550.. -45.6... .7 tenths.........23.2

and the big surprize, every darn ELK I or my sons have shot there, either dropped on impact or staggered around then dropped <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> we have yet to need to track an ELK hit that way, and we don,t shoot untill we can get that shot placement, and for that matter neither do most of the other guys I hunt with.
like I first posted, try slapping 3 quick shots into a 6" paper plate at 200 yards, if you can do it consistantly from a sitting possition youll seldom have a problem with ELK.
btw the path of destroyed tissue those 250 grain 338 and 358 bullets leave thru the vitals is easily in excess of 4" in dia.

Oh, I've seen the guys at the range as well. Personally, The complete dumb-%$#*s are not the ones I ever hear about taking long shots. The guys who I hear bragging about taking long shots, are normally the ones who "know" (mistakenly so), that they are damn good.

I don't worry about the guys fumbling around, darn near killing themselves. Those retards aren't likely to see anything anyhow. If by chance they do, it will most likely be from their pickup, close to the road. A deer that stupid (and close) probably needs to be taken out of the gene pool anyhow.

My whole point in this, is that I think it is extrodinarily arrogant to climb up on a soap box and start pontificating about what shots should and should not be taken. Most of the retards will never claim to be good shots. Most guys I have run across that actually claim to be (and mostly those that talk a good game), are so far from being good shots as to be laughable.

Hey, if a guy wants to take a marginal shot and hit something in the ass, more power to him. I don't like it, but until I can 100% guarantee that I will connect perfectly on ever single shot I ever take for the rest on my life, I need to keep my fat pie-hole shut. After all, it is not going to be my ass chasing that wounded animal to hell and back.

As for the guys who come back claiming "I think I clipped him", chances are that bullet didn't land in the same zip code.

I think it was Stick who said that no-one is a better shot than they think they are. Pretty darn accurate statement. I can usually spot the guys who really know what they are doing by finding the guys who get ready and go about their business without pontificating. The guy walking up and down the line, critiquing everyone and handing out free lessons is almost universally a sorry excuse for a rifleman. Take that to the bank.

I've killed a few Elk and my mandate on mechanical "readiness",isn't quantified via 200yd plate(s).

Elk kill very easy,but with that quantified...I'd not purposely schlep a +3.3" 100yd zero for them,nor for anything else.

Placement is too easily arranged,via alternate methodology and anchoring them equally a given..................

I have seen some of the worst shots. In a state like VT with it's short season, buck law, lack of game and cold weather there are very few decent game shots. Sometimes I get to talk to them at the parking spot and many get shots and miss them.

I think that this is a case of buck fever and no familiarity with their rifle. If you go to a gun store in say Brattleboro, VT you will find no handloading supplies at all. The nearest place that sells the stuff is somewhere in NH!

So this is not a case of how far they can shoot as most seem to fail at 60 yds.

I was told of a hunt in Canada where the guides(s) asked each hunter to fire a shot at 50 yds from standing. The woods are close there and most shots are taken offhand. One shooter hit right in the middle of the bull. Of course he is the one who told the story. Nobody else could hit the bull. Finally one other guy hit it but the shot was way off. He adjusted his scope and refused to take another shot to check.

On this trip there were some rifle malfunctions as well but some deer were taken and one was lost.

Sure some of us can hit game and it seems easy but the vast majority here are full of confidence and that does not compute to hitting anything.

Unfortunately, they are all to often correct.

Maybe i'm alone here but I perfer my intended target at rock chunking distance...but I want the ability to shoot further If necessary...

RLB..