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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,314
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,314 |
I'll just leave this here... Brian Ward posted at ArcheryTalk on May 23, 2015:I went back at looked at my notes, my final loads for my hunt were 85 grains of H-1000. It is over the published data of 83 from Hodgdon Data Manual.I worked up from 10% below max and worked up the final load in half grain increments looking for accuracy (also potency) since I was hunting for moose in Alaska with Griz running around. There were no pressure signs in the cases compared to the 83 gr load (no blown primers, splits, cracks etc.). I even had two other experienced reloaders look at the cases. Also, since this was a single shot, I was not seating the bullet as deep, allowing for more case capacity… but I was not engaging the rifling. My loads did not exceed SAAMI PSI for the 300 win mag. They were at max but not over. Sigh... I have no experience with the .300 Win Mag, folks. What would a 2 grain overcharge do? (Looking at current loads for the H1000 published by Hodgdon, the max loads for the 180 grain NOS E-TIP and the 180 grain SPR MT-SP are 79.4 grains compressed and 81.0 grains compressed, respectively.) Looks like there was an extra .45acp charge of powder in there. I'm still interested in knowing what parts failed. Interesting,..straight from Hogdgon's website.. ![[Linked Image]](http://i.imgur.com/3bpNqvS.jpg) He's probably going to sue the Brass manufacturer next because they should have known he could make an Over-Pressure load and didn't size the brass accordingly... Nosler e-tips usually max out about midway between start and max loads for standard bullets, they have a warning on the website and the manuals that the pressure curve is different on the e-tips and be uber careful to start at the minimum. 79 grains of H1000 was probably close max saami pressure, and who really knows how much powder was in that case that blew up. My guess is the OP used the the "load it up until the primer blows, than back it off a bit" method of load development. His load as he stated it was probably 5-6 grains above max saami pressure for the 300 WM. My guess is the load was well above what he admits too.
"Life is tough, even tougher if your stupid"
John Wayne
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 70
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 70 |
For those who are just joining this thread, read the first 5 pages and skip to page 18-19. If you end up reading everything like I did you'll wishing you read my post.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,478 Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,478 Likes: 10 |
No dog in this fight, but there is a reason you don't see most of us toting around TC Encores.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
I have an Encore, used for special MZ seasons for long range stuff.....
Never had an issue with it but then I know how to load things too.....
But back to the I'm hunting moose where Grizz are... um we hunted how many years with a 30-30 and or MZ rifle, and a pistol for backup. Moved up to a 338-06 last fall just to try something new, but will be carrying the MZ again when I can get it to shoot like I want it to.
Grizz issues will get you if you are scared. But have a firearm, and a GOOD head, and you'll likely be just fine.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jul 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
Those extra 5 or 6 grains of powder could be the difference between you getting eaten by a bear or blowing your own face off with your rifle.
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 42
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 42 |
Those extra 5 or 6 grains of powder could be the difference between you getting eaten by a bear or blowing your own face off with your rifle.
It’s kind funny when there are statements like this. “His load as he stated it was probably 5-6 grains above max saami pressure for the 300 WM.” Wow! Kind of apples and oranges there bud. I’m not recommending anyone exceed limits with their loads. As stated above 26th edition Hodgdon Data Manual states 83. I very judiciously worked up to 85. A lot of other factors can be weighted. That is why I stated my procedure above. I’m not hiding this at all, I very openly and willing gave this to T/C Arms, the jury, and this forum. H-1000 is one of the slowest burning powders around; which makes a 2 grain increase not much of a pressure rise. Hand loaders can archive more constant accuracy, and pressures over factory loads. Factory loads on a hot day in the SW US or Africa can have pressure spikes well above my loads. My loads were within SAAMI service maximum avg. pressure limits. You can disregard everything I say but PLEASE if anyone has this gun or knows someone with one out of morbid curiosity check the headspace or have a gun smith check the headspace. I don’t know if there is much more I can add here.
Last edited by Brian_Ward; 05/27/15.
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 713
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 713 |
Those extra 5 or 6 grains of powder could be the difference between you getting eaten by a bear or blowing your own face off with your rifle.
It’s kind funny when there are statements like this. “His load as he stated it was probably 5-6 grains above max saami pressure for the 300 WM.” Wow! Kind of apples and oranges there bud. I’m not recommending anyone exceed limits with their loads. As stated above 26th edition Hodgdon Data Manual states 83. I very judiciously worked up to 85. A lot of other factors can be weighted. That is why I stated my procedure above. I’m not hiding this at all, I very openly and willing gave this to T/C Arms, the jury, and this forum. H-1000 is one of the slowest burning powders around; which makes a 2 grain increase not much of a pressure rise. Hand loaders can archive more constant accuracy, and pressures over factory loads. Factory loads on a hot day in the SW US or Africa can have pressure spikes well above my loads. My loads were within SAAMI service maximum avg. pressure limits. You can disregard everything I say but PLEASE if anyone has this gun or knows someone with one out of morbid curiosity check the headspace or have a gun smith check the headspace. I don’t know if there is much more I can add here. Can you actually answer the questions that have been asked multiple times about what actually happened to the gun? My own Encore .300 WM had excessive headspace, but my gun didn't explode. Is the action still in one piece? Were the locking lugs intact, etc? All of these things would have been brought up in court if they applied and even though you stated haven't handled your gun since the incident it would have likely been present in court so you could at least tell us what was broken, what wasn't, etc. Also, are you sure H1000 burns at the same rate once it's compressed heavily? Lots of powders don't so what are you basing your assumption on? Using visual pressure signs for max loads is always a bad idea which is why you were found partially at fault as many reloading guides now include pictures showing exactly that-no visible signs of grossly overpressure loads... I have multiple Encores and would like to legitimately know what happened to your gun, not just that you think the design is bad as clearly several of us have had similar headspace issues that didn't result in catastrophic failure and the only legitimate difference thus far seems to be your use of max/over pressure loads...
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
Those extra 5 or 6 grains of powder could be the difference between you getting eaten by a bear or blowing your own face off with your rifle.
It’s kind funny when there are statements like this. “His load as he stated it was probably 5-6 grains above max saami pressure for the 300 WM.” Wow! Kind of apples and oranges there bud. I’m not recommending anyone exceed limits with their loads. As stated above 26th edition Hodgdon Data Manual states 83. I very judiciously worked up to 85. A lot of other factors can be weighted. That is why I stated my procedure above. I’m not hiding this at all, I very openly and willing gave this to T/C Arms, the jury, and this forum. H-1000 is one of the slowest burning powders around; which makes a 2 grain increase not much of a pressure rise. Hand loaders can archive more constant accuracy, and pressures over factory loads. Factory loads on a hot day in the SW US or Africa can have pressure spikes well above my loads. My loads were within SAAMI service maximum avg. pressure limits. You can disregard everything I say but PLEASE if anyone has this gun or knows someone with one out of morbid curiosity check the headspace or have a gun smith check the headspace. I don’t know if there is much more I can add here. Hodgdon lists 79.4 grains as the maximum load under a 180 grain Nosler E-tip. That is verified on their Reloading Data site as of 45 seconds ago, and it is listed as a compressed load at 3.340" COAL and 62,400 PSI. You have stated that your load was at 85 grains. Not only is that more than 5 grains over book maximum, it is also a severely compressed load. You've been asked, time and again, who your firearms expert was and what laboratory he used for the pressure testing. That is information you clearly should know and yet you refuse to offer it up, in spite of your words saying that you're giving all the information that you have.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 42
Campfire Greenhorn
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OP
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 42 |
Those extra 5 or 6 grains of powder could be the difference between you getting eaten by a bear or blowing your own face off with your rifle.
It’s kind funny when there are statements like this. “His load as he stated it was probably 5-6 grains above max saami pressure for the 300 WM.” Wow! Kind of apples and oranges there bud. I’m not recommending anyone exceed limits with their loads. As stated above 26th edition Hodgdon Data Manual states 83. I very judiciously worked up to 85. A lot of other factors can be weighted. That is why I stated my procedure above. I’m not hiding this at all, I very openly and willing gave this to T/C Arms, the jury, and this forum. H-1000 is one of the slowest burning powders around; which makes a 2 grain increase not much of a pressure rise. Hand loaders can archive more constant accuracy, and pressures over factory loads. Factory loads on a hot day in the SW US or Africa can have pressure spikes well above my loads. My loads were within SAAMI service maximum avg. pressure limits. You can disregard everything I say but PLEASE if anyone has this gun or knows someone with one out of morbid curiosity check the headspace or have a gun smith check the headspace. I don’t know if there is much more I can add here. Can you actually answer the questions that have been asked multiple times about what actually happened to the gun? My own Encore .300 WM had excessive headspace, but my gun didn't explode. Is the action still in one piece? Were the locking lugs intact, etc? All of these things would have been brought up in court if they applied and even though you stated haven't handled your gun since the incident it would have likely been present in court so you could at least tell us what was broken, what wasn't, etc. Also, are you sure H1000 burns at the same rate once it's compressed heavily? Lots of powders don't so what are you basing your assumption on? Using visual pressure signs for max loads is always a bad idea which is why you were found partially at fault as many reloading guides now include pictures showing exactly that-no visible signs of grossly overpressure loads... I have multiple Encores and would like to legitimately know what happened to your gun, not just that you think the design is bad as clearly several of us have had similar headspace issues that didn't result in catastrophic failure and the only legitimate difference thus far seems to be your use of max/over pressure loads... I thought I did post what happened, I think people are attacking me and getting worked up when they have not read what I posted before...I’m trying to answer every question I have gotten. The action is in one piece, I was unable to post the picture here but it is on multiple other forms...just google it. I increased the cartridge length reducing the compression of the load....no magazine problems because it is a single shot. Plunger (Lug?) still works but has chips on the corners.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
Those extra 5 or 6 grains of powder could be the difference between you getting eaten by a bear or blowing your own face off with your rifle.
It’s kind funny when there are statements like this. “His load as he stated it was probably 5-6 grains above max saami pressure for the 300 WM.” Wow! Kind of apples and oranges there bud. I’m not recommending anyone exceed limits with their loads. As stated above 26th edition Hodgdon Data Manual states 83. I very judiciously worked up to 85. A lot of other factors can be weighted. That is why I stated my procedure above. I’m not hiding this at all, I very openly and willing gave this to T/C Arms, the jury, and this forum. H-1000 is one of the slowest burning powders around; which makes a 2 grain increase not much of a pressure rise. Hand loaders can archive more constant accuracy, and pressures over factory loads. Factory loads on a hot day in the SW US or Africa can have pressure spikes well above my loads. My loads were within SAAMI service maximum avg. pressure limits. You can disregard everything I say but PLEASE if anyone has this gun or knows someone with one out of morbid curiosity check the headspace or have a gun smith check the headspace. I don’t know if there is much more I can add here. Can you actually answer the questions that have been asked multiple times about what actually happened to the gun? My own Encore .300 WM had excessive headspace, but my gun didn't explode. Is the action still in one piece? Were the locking lugs intact, etc? All of these things would have been brought up in court if they applied and even though you stated haven't handled your gun since the incident it would have likely been present in court so you could at least tell us what was broken, what wasn't, etc. Also, are you sure H1000 burns at the same rate once it's compressed heavily? Lots of powders don't so what are you basing your assumption on? Using visual pressure signs for max loads is always a bad idea which is why you were found partially at fault as many reloading guides now include pictures showing exactly that-no visible signs of grossly overpressure loads... I have multiple Encores and would like to legitimately know what happened to your gun, not just that you think the design is bad as clearly several of us have had similar headspace issues that didn't result in catastrophic failure and the only legitimate difference thus far seems to be your use of max/over pressure loads... I thought I did post what happened, I think people are attacking me and getting worked up when they have not read what I posted before...I’m trying to answer every question I have gotten. The action is in one piece, I was unable to post the picture here but it is on multiple other forms...just google it. I increased the cartridge length reducing the compression of the load....no magazine problems because it is a single shot. Plunger (Lug?) still works but has chips on the corners. People are asking what happened and for details. You refuse to provide details so that people can actually try to figure out what happened. The more actual details that come out, though, the worse you end up looking in this. 85 grains when book maximum is compressed at 79.4? Good grief.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
Those extra 5 or 6 grains of powder could be the difference between you getting eaten by a bear or blowing your own face off with your rifle.
It’s kind funny when there are statements like this. “His load as he stated it was probably 5-6 grains above max saami pressure for the 300 WM.” Wow! Kind of apples and oranges there bud. I’m not recommending anyone exceed limits with their loads. As stated above 26th edition Hodgdon Data Manual states 83. I very judiciously worked up to 85. A lot of other factors can be weighted. That is why I stated my procedure above. I’m not hiding this at all, I very openly and willing gave this to T/C Arms, the jury, and this forum. H-1000 is one of the slowest burning powders around; which makes a 2 grain increase not much of a pressure rise. Hand loaders can archive more constant accuracy, and pressures over factory loads. Factory loads on a hot day in the SW US or Africa can have pressure spikes well above my loads. My loads were within SAAMI service maximum avg. pressure limits. You can disregard everything I say but PLEASE if anyone has this gun or knows someone with one out of morbid curiosity check the headspace or have a gun smith check the headspace. I don’t know if there is much more I can add here. There is lots more you "could" add, but likely won't, here are a few things that would smooth this all over and maybe make people take this more seriously. What exactly happened to the gun, pictures would be great. Why did the jury, right or wrong, find you 40% at fault, what did you do or what did they think you did to cause this. Your loads are above book max according to several sources, what lab tested your loads to determine they were within SAAMI spec. Who were the experts that inspected the loads, and your fired cases to determine they were within SAAMI spec, not only pressure but sized properly etc... Did your loads (sizing specifically) contribute in any way to exasperate an already existing headspace issue. There are more but lets start there.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
I increased the cartridge length reducing the compression of the load....no magazine problems because it is a single shot.
And what labs or experts verified that? Was a pressure barrel used?
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
Curious if increasing the cartridge length involved rechambering or altering the barrel?
That has me curious.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
What was the COAL of the final load? That should information easily at hand for Brian.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,769
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,769 |
Finally found the pic on another site.. Not that there's much detail that can be gotten from it. Gun: ![[Linked Image]](http://forums.bowsite.com/TF/pics/00small66051010.JPG)
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 26,524 |
well, that's going to raise more questions than answers...
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,867 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,867 Likes: 4 |
I increased the cartridge length reducing the compression of the load....no magazine problems because it is a single shot.
And what labs or experts verified that? Was a pressure barrel used? Increasing the cartridge length also moved the bullets closer to the lands.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,478 Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,478 Likes: 10 |
Yes, campfire members never shoot handloads over what reloading manuals publish.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
Finally found the pic on another site.. Not that there's much detail that can be gotten from it. Gun: The action is intact. The hammer is intact. The barrel is intact. The only "catastrophic failure" in that picture is of the stock. Now, that's only one side, but I can't see how the other side would have blown out and left that side looking proper.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,769
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 43,769 |
“ The Savage 99 Pocket Reference”. All models and variations of 1895’s, 1899’s and 99’s covered. Also dates, checkering, engraving.. Find at www.savagelevers.com
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