Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Embrace The Truth - Catastrophic Gun Failure

I find it odd that anyone not outright bashing T/C for negligence has either preconceived notions, or they are focusing on the load.

No way are they objective.

Or just trying to understand it all without a bias. Shame on us all for not blindly trusting Brian and joining his crusade against TC.

I am selling every Encore I own.

Like I said, if pressure were even the issue, they would have let him put on his expert, no matter how much of a shade tree expert he was. Because they could have then put on one with multiple PHDs behind his name who could have used the same shoddy sources to testify to the exact opposite WITHOUT HAVING TO RISK ACTUALLY TAKING APART ONE OF THE LOADS AND TESTING IT.

I mean really, the guy got his face mangled, and spent the last 10 years of his life fighting with TC, and then comes in here and accuses us of having preconceived notions on the subject.

I don't think either side wanted pressure discussed or it would have been, there was too much to lose for both sides by bringing it up, the gamble wasn't worth it. TC's lawyers likely wanted that testimony out because they didn't want to open up pandora's box with regards to the pressure. Brians attorney steered clear of actual testing the ammo as well. Also the experts testimony may have included more information that just pressure, such as design flaws that were damaging to TC's case.

I get the feeling that most guys here could have got behind the man, despite any contributory issues, providing the OP was forthcoming and not a Lifetime Made for TV movie.

Exactly.

Did he ever mention if he was wearing safety glasses? If the jury didn't hear the pressure info. that would almost make the fact that it was a reload a moot point so what else did he do/not do that he hasn't said to make them find him 40% at fault?

I wouldn't find it far fetched for the jury to find 40% at fault for simply going to a shooting range to test loads, believing that to be an assumption of risk. The OP did say the jury gave no qualification for the 40%, nor were they asked to do so by either side.

The OP has also lied and misled people throughout the thread from the first post so we really cannot believe a word he says at this point.

In another forum (this is the only way to piece schit together) he indicated it was a hunting situation, in Alaska, and he was not wearing glasses.

He lost me when he stated that he uses cracked case necks to judge pressure signs. Also, apparently he has Quickload and didn't comprehend that placing the bullet closer to the throat raises shot start pressure and also max pressure.

I loaded Accubonds for a .300 RUM when the bullets were first introduced, Nosler lumped them with Partitions for reloading data. The manual even had a warning that the Accubonds developed higher pressure than ballistic tipped bullets.

Getting into this very late, and just commenting on the technical aspects. If a rifle goes kB! that most certainly can be from headspaces (as well as many other issues). It should also be noted that just because headspace is excessive, doesn't mean it's automatically going to blow up.

Maybe my experience can help shed a little light on this subject. Several years back I purchased a used, 15" .357 Maximum barrel for my Encore stamped "Coyote Guns". I started working up loads for it, and once I got to moderate loads, the action would open when I fired. The first time it happened I knew that something funny had occurred. I didn't move, just took in the details of what everything looked like. It looked normal - action was closed, resting on my shooting bags, right hand still wrapped around the grip. But I KNEW something funky had happened. I looked down at my lap and, lo and behold, there was a fired .357 Maximum case lying in my lap! I thought, "What the hell?!?!?" Then I opened my gun. Sure enough, chamber was empty. What had happened is the frame opened when I fired, the snap of the action opening ejected the case, then snapped back shut. Of course I quit shooting and went to the shop to figure out what the hell had happened. I got out my feeler gauges and measured headspace. IIRC, headspace on that barrel was .014". Light was easily visible between the breech face and the barrel face. I got online and started doing some research. I knew from previous experience that the headspace varies from barrel to barrel based on the placement of the lug and hinge pin hole. I also found out that Coyote Guns was no longer in business, partly because his Encore barrels had excessive headspace issues due to misplacement of the barrel lug, which affects how far the locking lugs enter into the locking lug recess in the frame. I tried various solutions to keep the frame closed on firing and finally succeeded by carefully stoning the locking lugs so they were square on the end and had more purchase on the recess area and I installed a muzzle break to reduce the recoil and stress on the frame. If my barrel would have been a .300 Win Mag, with the recoil and pressures involved, combined with the much larger case head on the breech face, I can completely see exactly what happened to Brian. The frame, due to excess headspace, came open upon firing because the locking lugs did not fully engage in the locking lug recess. The recoil, being restricted by his shoulder, had enough leverage due to the long barrel and recoil force that the stock snapped in the grip when it came open, and then snapped back shut. All of this happened in a split second. I would bet a large sum of money that the fired case could be found somewhere within 30 feet of where he fired, straight behind him.

Brian - I'm sorry for your experience and the loss of your sight. Headspace issues have been known with these guns for years. Mike Bellm dedicates an entire page on his website and a specific tool for measuring headspace and setting resizing dies for the TC Contenders and Encores. But Mike's stuff is for OCD reloaders like me and intended to solve fail-to-fire issues and extend brass life - not to resolve inherent safety issues if the barrels have excess headspace.

I wish you would have been here 40 pages ago selmer....

While a good explanation of your problem, your issue is actually potentially a lack of headspace leading to the barrel failing to lock up correctly, or more likely what you alluded to in the barrel/frame gap being too large on Coyote barrels. The point on the cartridge that limits the forward movement of the cartridge in the chamber dictates the headspace which would be the gap created between the breech and the cartridge when the cartridge slides all the way forward (or in a CRF bolt gun it would be the distance between the stopping point on the cartridge and the corresponding point in the chamber. In your example you actually have too little headspace and/or too large of a barrel to frame gap that prevents the locking lugs from engaging adequately. With solely an excessive headspace issue the cartridges lengthen and eventually separate around the case head due to overstretching because the case slides too far into the barrel, then lengthens to the rear stretching the brass above the case head (which is the problem I had with a brand new encore barrel in .300 WM.) No one is arguing that excessive headspace or unintentional openings aren't issues with encores, only the fact that they usually aren't related as they tend to create different issues as your example illustrates. There's also the issue of the frame flexing and coming unlocked, but in the OP's case he doesn't seem to know which one he actually had or why, nor can he seem to tell us what TC said was wrong with his barrel, at least not all on one site in one sitting...

Selmer,

Thank you. That makes far more sense than anything the OP who has been involved with this thing for 10 years has said here or anywhere else.

With that explanation, I can see a 60% fault to T/C, and 40% to the OP for loading WELL over book maximum and basically creating a bomb that exacerbated the headspace issue to a catastrophic level.

Except Selmer's example is the opposite headspace issue the OP claims to have had...

http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=26983

OP claims he had excessive headspace (first scenario in link)

Selmer has too tight of headspace/too large of barrel/frame gap which impares locking (2nd scenario in link)