Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Embrace The Truth - Catastrophic Gun Failure

Don't need a qualified gun smith. I know what to do to fix it.

Jeff,

Please, don't try to make sense. He is well beyond that now.

The "gun expert" that was disallowed rather quickly and has heretofore remained nameless?

That's one hell of an "expert". Especially when they rely on nothing more than load software that at that point was dealing with a largely untested bullet and a new powder at a highly compressed rate.

No wonder they were disallowed.

Well, something must have "way over-penetrated".

Again, please don't try to make any sense. He's well beyond that.

A gunsmith wouldn't be my first choice to support my position on whether my handloads were safe either especially when numerous testing labs exist that can provide reputable pressure info, but as long as he said brian's loads were safe that should be good enough to sell all my encores...

He's never even said he was a "gunsmith", just an unnamed "gun expert". Hell, it could have been Larry Root, Maser, or Lee24 for all anyone knows, and the court kicked that "expert" to the curb with a quickness.

I don't know if Brian's loads were over maximum pressure or under maximum pressure.

Nor, for that matter, does 4ager. Even though he keeps quoting his holy grail, stating that loads were 8.3% over maximum.

He is forgetting that the "book", that he holds so dearly as the source of all knowledge on pressures in the .300 Win mag, is simply a guide. Using one very specific set of components, in one specific rifle.

Change the primer, and pressure could easily change a couple thousand psi, plus or minus.

Change the case, and pressure could also change, again, plus or minus.

Brian has stated that his loaded COAL was much longer than a standard loaded round. Which could lead to pressure excursions, or possibly to a much lower pressure. Depending on the chamber in which it was fired.

It just so happens that at least two of my T/C barrels have freebore that ole Roy Weatherby himself would be proud of, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Brian's loads had the bullets well away from the lands, and thus, as another poster has indicated, been at 60,000 psi. 4000 psi short of SAAMI max.

Brian has also stated that he used a different projectile than the "book". Again - this could reduce or increase pressure.

So, unless one were to test the loads in a chamber that simulated the one in Brian's Encore, it is pure speculation as to whether or not the loads were under pressure, over pressure, or to be completely hyperbolic - "bombs".

I do find it rather telling that T/C did not take one of their barrels and create duplicate loads to verify whether or not SAAMI max pressures were exceeded. And then present this evidence to the court. All of a single days worth of work, I'd think. Then again, maybe they did test...

As for me - I'll give the jury the benefit of the doubt - and find that culpability should be shared, with the slight majority falling on T/C. I also feel that Brian is likely to find himself back in court over the matter. And not from an appeal of the judgement, but in the manner he initially presented the information, rather globally...

Scott Quickload has a warning that the software is math based modeling and doesn't use empirical data for problem solving and therefore an accurate reloading manual has to be used for load development. I've used Quickload in conjunction with RSI Pressure Trace and a chronograph to developers loads. While Quickload's pressure curve may mirror Pressure Trace's curve Pmax is different between the two.

It seems you missed my point.

Quickload is one guess.

The book load 4ager keeps referring to, is another guess. And yes, it is a guess in this case, as the very important COAL was changed. And who knows about the manufacturer of the case and primer...

But, with the variables that were thrown in by Brian and possibly by T/C's fondness for freebore, both resources are just that - guesses.

But it's really interesting that neither party to the suit introduced lab results for those loads, in a T/C Encore chamber...

1) nobody who loads over book max for a standard cartridge is doing "due diligence". They are hotdogging it.
2) it's a flat out lie to assert your loads were within the SAAMI specs of 64k without any testing. The best you can say is that it showed no pressure signs, and that IF you used any software such as Quickload before the blowup that it possibly showed less?

In the end it seems you hotrodded a cartridge in a rifle that was already pushing it's max, and you suffered for it. You thought you were smarter than every guy who ever published a hand loading book, or that if you were over a bit too much that the consequence would be minor. Is TC responsible for putting out a rifle that was possibly dangerous at 300 Win pressures, but could definitely be dangerous to unsafe hand loaders who would overload it? The jury says yes, they are a little more responsible for it than you are.

We're all sorry you got hurt, but we are all gun guys. You have your story which you want us all to believe with no questions asked. But that's not going to happen. We don't know you, we don't know if you are the most anal hand loader on the planet, or if you were tossing back rum and cokes while you load, or if you can't throw the same load twice in a row, or even if you screwed up and used the wrong powder.

My only question left is: when are you suing the powder manufacturer? If the max load 8 years ago was 83 but has been dropped to 79, why aren't you suing them?

Well said

What, you don't like it that folks here aren't buying your version of the story?

Only a fool listens to one side of a story and thinks he has all the facts. Especially one side of a story with two adversaries.

"Embrace the truth"--we're not buying it.

After reading this whole thing, and being convinced of the inherent danger involved with even looking at an Encore, I have decided to provide a very important public service for all of you guys stuck with these death machines. PM me for my shipping info, and I'll reluctantly let you all ship them to me, where, for the good of all, I'll properly dispose of them...........

Thanks for an honest look and post.

BTW-T/C Arms has already filed for a re-trial

All I want is for people to be aware of the situation and check their T/C Arms Encore for problems. I’ve done my best to try forget all this junk and just live my life for the past nearly 10 years. Stewing and obsessing on the case would drive a person crazy.


I don’t have the case files my attorney does and the Encore rifle and components hasn’t been in my possession in almost 10 years so I’m not able to break out the calipers and give you guys measurements. I’m speaking in just general terms from memory. I’m not trying to re-litigate this case over the internet. Also I think that would be foolish on my part since T/C Arms has already filed for a re-trial. If people are really that concerned with getting all the details and determining what happened the court documents are public record and can be obtained.

Looks lie the T/C Encore isn't the only thing that needs better closure...

When this unfortunate accident happened, was Thompson/Center advertising in 'Handloader Magazine', and were they making barrels for their break-open actions that were chambered for cartridges that were basically wildcats (produced expressly by handloaders)...?

Not sure about where they advertised and when, but TC has made handload only barrels for a long time before this incident.