Some of you may remember my post from 6 weeks ago where my new-in-box $1,500 VX-6 3-18x50mm CDS-ZL blah blah blah scope had a canted reticle. I posted a photo of it, it was blatantly obvious.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...pold-fail-this-past-weekend#Post12379988So I send the scope in to Leupold with a VERY clear description (and link to photo) of the problem. Here is what I sent to them:
"Purchased beginning of year, opened this weekend to mount on my new rifle. Was very disappointed to see that the reticle was rotated clockwise relative to elevation turret. I have a photo of it on my private Imgur account. My other two VX-6s are definitely not like this." https://i.imgur.com/9sbcycY.jpgI received the scope back tonight and this was the brilliant [bleep] work Leupold did. Said they couldn't find anything, didn't call me, spun the turrets side-to-side, and sent the same [bleep] problem right back to me. Not acceptable, but I could stomach it if it was a $250 VX-1, but to fail TWICE on one of their "flagship" products is just BS. For the past few years I have spent on average a few thousand dollars a year on optics. Even more relevant, I advise all my friends and co-workers as they seem to always ask me what they should purchase for their projects. I can tell you what I WON'T be recommending to them from now on.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/cNSsgtKl.jpg)
Been there, done that and got the t-shirt. I have moved on from Leupold.
Been there, done that and got the t-shirt. I have moved on from Leupold.
+1
That’s horrible. And every day their reputation gets worse and worse...
That's crazy. So the CS is down the tubes now too, eh?
I'd send it back a second time and see what they do?
The recent Leupold hate is hard to fathom. I have filled several freezers with meat and have a shelf of silhouette trophies that I earned using their scopes. No failures ever in a few dozen of their scopes, over 4+ decades. Is this all very recent production?
I don’t mean to discount anyone’s personal experiences, but it’s difficult to match up based on my own.
I saw three different Leupolds fail on the silhouette line this past year alone. Including a 1" 8.5-25 x 40 on my centerfire. Frustrating to say the least.
Leupold allows up to 3 degrees of reticle cant. Your scope is within their acceptable range.
Welcome to Leupold.
Is there a relationship between scope caps and reticles being exactly vertical or 90° from each other. Just trying to understand the real problem
Is there a relationship between scope caps and reticles being exactly vertical or 90° from each other. Just trying to understand the real problem
Absolutely! On a 2nd focal plane scope (which this is), the reticle is mounted in a tube within a tube. Looking through the scope, the elevation turret is at 12 o'clock, windage at 3 o'clock. They push against the inner tube and there is a leaf spring at 7:30 which opposes the force of the two turrets. A scope can get away with a canted reticle if it is static, i.e. there is not a provision for "dialing" elevation or windage. If you level the canted reticle, any adjustment on elevation/windage produces movement on the other. If you level the elevation turret, it will track properly but you have to live the canted reticle, which is only valid for the center of the crosshairs. Any vertical or horizontal hashes will be off, albeit minimal at reasonable distances. None of this is acceptable on a scope which costs this much money.
They better make this right and real right. What a joke.
3 degrees of acceptable error? Wow. Not having ever put a scope together I can't say I know what method they use to install the reticle correctly. Since they have an acceptable error of 3 degrees their process is not acceptable to anyone that I know on this forum.
So, if I understand this correctly, with your reticle canted slightly, do they want you to square it in the rings and carry on? If they aren't going to align it, you'll have to ignore the outside of the scope and square it with a reticle leveller.
For what you paid, I would have expected better.
Thanks for the warning. Sorry it happened to you.
Have been looking for a new scope and have thought of a new Leupold. Not now. This after reading a test article where the tester, of a rifle IIRC, had to send a new Leupold back with the same problem, glossed over by mentioning their customer service...
I had nothing but good service from Leupold. but for 1500 dollars for their flagship scope , they better make it right. call and speak to a rep.....good luck
I had nothing but good service from Leupold. but for 1500 dollars for their flagship scope , they better make it right. call and speak to a rep.....good luck
Leupold allows up to 3 degrees of reticle cant. Your scope is within their acceptable range.
Welcome to Leupold.
Curiosity got the best of me from the OP's other thread.
And....sure enough. Tis why I always level the reticle, not the turrets.
![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/uZBfoVi.png)
Damn! I only have one Leupold I twist, it's an old 6.5-20x50 Long Range, it's been fail safe for over 15 years I guess, now paranoid, I'm gonna run it some more to make sure, ASAP.
I've been singing this song for over five years, probably closer to 10. Use to take a beating around here for it. Good to see the 'fire coming around.
Maybe your singing doesn't sound good? Grin.....
[align:left][/align]
I've been singing this song for over five years, probably closer to 10. Use to take a beating around here for it. Good to see the 'fire coming around.
Same here, I first noticed that leupold wasn’t up to par about 13 years ago and no one wanted to hear it.
This after reading a test article where the tester, of a rifle IIRC, had to send a new Leupold back with the same problem, glossed over by mentioning their customer service...
I have said for a long time, Not needing customer service is the best customer service.
Even if you level the reticle, which is what I do, if it's off kilter w.r.t. the turrets then the inputs from the turrets won't be the natural orthogonal vectors implied by the coordinate axes, i.e. the reticle.
Consider an extreme example, a 45 degree can't. You want to move bullet impact one unit vertically. A one unit change on a turret will then produce .707 units of vertical and .707 units of horizontal change.
Even if you level the reticle, which is what I do, if it's off kilter w.r.t. the turrets then the inputs from the turrets won't be the natural orthogonal vectors implied by the coordinate axes, i.e. the reticle.
Consider an extreme example, a 45 degree can't. You want to move bullet impact one unit vertically. A one unit change on a turret will then produce .707 units of vertical and .707 units of horizontal change.
Would really be magnified at a longer distance.
Maybe your singing doesn't sound good? Grin.....
Sort of a Rosanne-Barr-National-Anthem bad.
I've been singing this song for over five years, probably closer to 10. Use to take a beating around here for it. Good to see the 'fire coming around.
Same here, I first noticed that leupold wasn’t up to par about 1e years ago and no one wanted to hear it.
.
dave
Leupold allows up to 3 degrees of reticle cant. Your scope is within their acceptable range.
Welcome to Leupold.
Curiosity got the best of me from the OP's other thread.
And....sure enough. Tis why I always level the reticle, not the turrets.
So the scope is canted as I noted in his other post?
You all are getting all the bad ones, I have 15 or 16. No problems with mine.
Even if you level the reticle, which is what I do, if it's off kilter w.r.t. the turrets then the inputs from the turrets won't be the natural orthogonal vectors implied by the coordinate axes, i.e. the reticle.
Consider an extreme example, a 45 degree can't. You want to move bullet impact one unit vertically. A one unit change on a turret will then produce .707 units of vertical and .707 units of horizontal change.
Love it when you talk dirty like that!
FWIW, I've always leveled the reticle too. A while back, Graf's threw a Segway tool in my order just for grins, and it really helps. I also place a little machinists' rule against the eyepiece, in line with the bars on the Segway, which gives me a reference line all the way across. That makes it easier to compare the reticle to the bars. Any difference at either end of the horozontal is easily seen.
Is there a relationship between scope caps and reticles being exactly vertical or 90° from each other. Just trying to understand the real problem
Absolutely! On a 2nd focal plane scope (which this is), the reticle is mounted in a tube within a tube. Looking through the scope, the elevation turret is at 12 o'clock, windage at 3 o'clock. They push against the inner tube and there is a leaf spring at 7:30 which opposes the force of the two turrets. A scope can get away with a canted reticle if it is static, i.e. there is not a provision for "dialing" elevation or windage. If you level the canted reticle, any adjustment on elevation/windage produces movement on the other. If you level the elevation turret, it will track properly but you have to live the canted reticle, which is only valid for the center of the crosshairs. Any vertical or horizontal hashes will be off, albeit minimal at reasonable distances. None of this is acceptable on a scope which costs this much money.
On models with double springs, are they both at 7:30, or are there springs at two different positions on the 'clock"?
Mule Deer told me not long ago, IIRC, that what looks like the old Posi-lock turret at 7-ish on some Burris models now houses a coil bias spring. Sounds like a good idea.
The recent Leupold hate is hard to fathom. I have filled several freezers with meat and have a shelf of silhouette trophies that I earned using their scopes. No failures ever in a few dozen of their scopes, over 4+ decades. Is this all very recent production?
I don’t mean to discount anyone’s personal experiences, but it’s difficult to match up based on my own.
As a long time Leupold fan myself, I used to have an almost religious sort of respect for their products until about 2006. That is when I first saw the problems start. A couple of my friends, who are very well respected high end rifle makers noticed the same problems about the same time. At first, I really didn't want to believe it and plodded along as any good choir boy will do. Then, between 2009 and 2013 or so I had five of seven new Leupold's have problems retaining point of impact. Four were VX-III's and one was the much touted FX-II 6x36, which gave up the ghost during a Dall sheep hunt in Alaska. When I shot the sheep at about 350 yards, I noticed the bullet impact was about 6" to the left of where it should have been in dead calm conditions. Sure enough, when I got home the POI had shifted about 1.5" left of where it was when I left for Alaska and the turret had a weird crunchy feel when you turned it.
At one point, I had three Leupold variables lose POI on a 300 Wby over the course of about two months. This was handy, as it saved me on postage when I crammed them all in one flat rate box to send in for service. It did cost me a lot of expensive ammunition though.
Nowadays, I pretty much stick with NF, Schmidt & Bender, SWFA SS, and if I need to go light, older Leupold M8's. I do have a newer Burris Fullfield II that has been holding up well to 300 mag recoil. Can't say it's a scope I would put on a nice custom, as it is pretty grim in the looks department, but it has been pretty tough so far.
You all are getting all the bad ones, I have 15 or 16. No problems with mine.
I've never had one go bad either and plan to keep it that way.............
by getting rid of most of my Leupolds!
I'm kind of over the hill (age/health), so are my bushel basket full of Leupolds. I have one M8 and close to a dozen Vari-X III's, which I have contended are too good to toss, so I keep using them. They also are trouble free. I may have made a good decision, since the quality does seem to be on the decline. The only new Leupold in my stable is a 3-9EFR that I bought thinking was the same as my old Ultralight 3-9 EFR. I now notice that the new one is labeled as a .22 scope. Not sure how that is going to work out as I intended to put it on a center fire?
I am not a Leupold or nothing guy. I have bought other brands in the last few years. I am really impressed with a Bushnell 4200 from about three years ago as to clarity and brightness. (I don't spin knobs).
As to other brands, I have an old Zeiss 4X that has not wiggled for thirty years. It is still better than some lesser brands. I have a Swarovski binocular and have had their scope. Great glass and great customer service. The problem is that in my experience, you will need the CS. Personally, I'd rather not need it.
In my situation, unless I run over a rifle and ruin the scope, I am close to not buying many or no more scopes. But like everyone else,,if I do need another, what should it be. I will stay tuned .......
Jack
Even if you level the reticle, which is what I do, if it's off kilter w.r.t. the turrets then the inputs from the turrets won't be the natural orthogonal vectors implied by the coordinate axes, i.e. the reticle.
Consider an extreme example, a 45 degree can't. You want to move bullet impact one unit vertically. A one unit change on a turret will then produce .707 units of vertical and .707 units of horizontal change.
If Leupold allows 3 degrees of cant, as was mentioned by another poster, the error will be negligible out to a few hundred yards. It becomes more pronounced at longer ranges. How much error is introduced by a canted reticle isn't the issue however. QA and customer satisfaction are.
As I posted earlier, for $1500, Leupold should rectify the problem. Time to chat with a company rep, not the service department. A personal approach is best. Phone them again, or if Leupold won't deal with the problem, drop by the store and tell them you would like to chat with their rep. The store may even offer to help.
If Leupold allows 3 degrees of cant, as was mentioned by another poster, the error will be negligible out to a few hundred yards. It becomes more pronounced at longer ranges. How much error is introduced by a canted reticle isn't the issue however. QA and customer satisfaction are.
As I posted earlier, for $1500, Leupold should rectify the problem. Time to chat with a company rep, not the service department. A personal approach is best. Phone them again, or if Leupold won't deal with the problem, drop by the store and tell them you would like to chat with their rep. The store may even offer to help.
I will be contacting Leupold again, that is for damn sure. I will actually be very pleasant on the phone as I know the person on the other end was not the one who "passed the buck" on this issue. But I will be insistant on speaking with someone with "authority" to resolve it immediately. What really burns my azz is that it cost me almost $40 for insured postage to Leupold, they had the scope for 6 weeks, nobody contacts me asking "we can't find anything, what are you talking about", nobody bothered to look at the web link I included in the return with a very clear picture of the canted reticle. I am on vacation from work next week, but I may come in anyway and put the scope on an optical comparator. I can shine a light through the scope and measure within a RCH how for off the crosshairs are from level relative to the turret/scope base.
Honestly at this point I expect to receive a new scope for my trouble and their lack of finding the issue the first time. We shall see and I will update when I know something.
I agree. Many businesses will avoid dealing with, or delay rectification, hoping that the customer gives up and walks away.
Have you showed the store your scope? They should be aware of it too. Sometimes, them having a rapport with the rep may be a big help. Lifetime warranty, reputation, etc.
Even if you level the reticle, which is what I do, if it's off kilter w.r.t. the turrets then the inputs from the turrets won't be the natural orthogonal vectors implied by the coordinate axes, i.e. the reticle.
Consider an extreme example, a 45 degree can't. You want to move bullet impact one unit vertically. A one unit change on a turret will then produce .707 units of vertical and .707 units of horizontal change.
If Leupold allows 3 degrees of cant, as was mentioned by another poster, the error will be negligible out to a few hundred yards. It becomes more pronounced at longer ranges. How much error is introduced by a canted reticle isn't the issue however. QA and customer satisfaction are.
As I posted earlier, for $1500, Leupold should rectify the problem. Time to chat with a company rep, not the service department. A personal approach is best. Phone them again, or if Leupold won't deal with the problem, drop by the store and tell them you would like to chat with their rep. The store may even offer to help.
I agree with Steve,but instead send a certified letter to the President of Leupold Optics.These kind of letters get results.
If Leupold allows 3 degrees of cant, as was mentioned by another poster, the error will be negligible out to a few hundred yards. It becomes more pronounced at longer ranges. How much error is introduced by a canted reticle isn't the issue however. QA and customer satisfaction are.
As I posted earlier, for $1500, Leupold should rectify the problem. Time to chat with a company rep, not the service department. A personal approach is best. Phone them again, or if Leupold won't deal with the problem, drop by the store and tell them you would like to chat with their rep. The store may even offer to help.
I will be contacting Leupold again, that is for damn sure. I will actually be very pleasant on the phone as I know the person on the other end was not the one who "passed the buck" on this issue. But I will be insistant on speaking with someone with "authority" to resolve it immediately. What really burns my azz is that it cost me almost $40 for insured postage to Leupold, they had the scope for 6 weeks, nobody contacts me asking "we can't find anything, what are you talking about", nobody bothered to look at the web link I included in the return with a very clear picture of the canted reticle. I am on vacation from work next week, but I may come in anyway and put the scope on an optical comparator. I can shine a light through the scope and measure within a RCH how for off the crosshairs are from level relative to the turret/scope base.
Honestly at this point I expect to receive a new scope for my trouble and their lack of finding the issue the first time. We shall see and I will update when I know something.
Send it back with a letter and a link to this thread.
If they care, they'll do something.
Lots of exposure here to those who buy scopes.
Bad news travels faster and farther than good news.
Whether or not they realize it, they can't afford to let their CS go south, as CS has long been a big marketing plus, even when stuff messes up. It's aggravating enough having to send one back, usually in the middle of hunting season, only to have them send it back, finding no problem when the problem is as plain as the nose on your face.
Keep us posted.
DF
Give them your phone number and email, let them know you're expecting a call.
DF
If they give you flack, ask for a supervisor and move up the food chain until you find someone with good sense.
DF
I used the "Contact Us" feature on Leupold's website to send them this:
Good morning folks. I don't have a question, but I do have a concern. I have always been a Leupold fan. Most of my rifles wear Leupold scopes. They were once considered the gold standard in optics. I consume volumes of information. I read a number of shooting and hunting related internet forums. Now I know that sometimes you have to dismiss some social media comments as outliers, but I can no longer dismiss the negative Leupold comments. They are pervasive on all of the forums that I read. And it's some very seasoned, very skilled users that are having issues with your product. And it's common. So why am I writing you? I want Leupold to maintain its reputation as one of the world's premiere scope builders. You are an American company, and I first seek out American made products, especially when it comes to hunting and shooting. I want you to succeed. You are losing the faith of a lot of your customers. Many of them have abandoned you already. Social media is here to stay. It's where people get their information. You have far too many customers posting legitimate complaints. Please do whatever it takes to restore your fading glory. Here is but one example of one of your recent failures
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt.../i-am-going-to-lose-my-scheit-on-leupold Discerning sportsmen and women won't accept that. There are many more legitimate complaints on that forum and others. Thanks for your time. Paul
Very nice, but I can almost guarantee that you'll get a classic "Thanks for your input" letter like the ones you get when you write to your congressional reps. They've taken a decision to operate like this because they're convinced that's the path to the greatest profitability, and they'll ride it out until the bottom line falls out from under them. I worked through several cycles of my company letting things go to Hell in one way or another and know the drill. The trend is to go for the up-front money and not worry about retaining a customer base. They'll deny it, but watch what they do, not what they say.
Thanks for your effort.
You wrote a very well put together piece, you covered points of contention very well.
Stay with them, don’t let them blow you off.
DF
The recent Leupold hate is hard to fathom. I have filled several freezers with meat and have a shelf of silhouette trophies that I earned using their scopes. No failures ever in a few dozen of their scopes, over 4+ decades. Is this all very recent production?
I don’t mean to discount anyone’s personal experiences, but it’s difficult to match up based on my own.
As a long time Leupold fan myself, I used to have an almost religious sort of respect for their products until about 2006. That is when I first saw the problems start. A couple of my friends, who are very well respected high end rifle makers noticed the same problems about the same time. At first, I really didn't want to believe it and plodded along as any good choir boy will do. Then, between 2009 and 2013 or so I had five of seven new Leupold's have problems retaining point of impact. Four were VX-III's and one was the much touted FX-II 6x36, which gave up the ghost during a Dall sheep hunt in Alaska. When I shot the sheep at about 350 yards, I noticed the bullet impact was about 6" to the left of where it should have been in dead calm conditions. Sure enough, when I got home the POI had shifted about 1.5" left of where it was when I left for Alaska and the turret had a weird crunchy feel when you turned it.
At one point, I had three Leupold variables lose POI on a 300 Wby over the course of about two months. This was handy, as it saved me on postage when I crammed them all in one flat rate box to send in for service. It did cost me a lot of expensive ammunition though.
Nowadays, I pretty much stick with NF, Schmidt & Bender, SWFA SS, and if I need to go light, older Leupold M8's. I do have a newer Burris Fullfield II that has been holding up well to 300 mag recoil. Can't say it's a scope I would put on a nice custom, as it is pretty grim in the looks department, but it has been pretty tough so far.
Savvy. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I would move on too, if I had the same experiences.
This thread explains some of what I am missing. The first being that I don’t shoot past 550 yards much, so this variable may have went undetected by me. The second being that those scope leveling gadgets have always struck me as a sales gimmick, so I’ve never used one. Now I see that many people take them seriously, so it probably matters to them that things are indexed precisely. (Several silhouette shooters intentionally cant their scopes a lot more than 3°, with plenty of success). The last being that I only have one new Leupold. A new CDS scope, that seems to be working correctly so far. The custom knob arrived from Leupold yesterday, and load testing is getting dialed in, as of this afternoon. The next step is to start stretching out. Wish me luck.
With regards to getting attention from Leupold, if it gets serious enough to anyone here, you can always use the Oregon state attorney general. It will get their attention. I wouldn’t over a rifle scope, but I might if half the stuff happened to me that has happened to the folks typing here.
I contacted Leupold CS tonight. Rep was pleasant and helpful. He emailed me a UPS calltag for Overnight shipment back to himself personally. I missed the UPS store cutoff so it won't go out until tomorrow and received in Oregon on Monday (hopefully).
This is really a 1st world problem, there are much greater things to worry about. What really set me off was the failure to fix the problem after sending it back.
It really is sad that was once considered the gold standard in rifle optics has become a bit of a dead horse. I started to lose faith in Leupold products a few years ago when I bought a Kimber Montana from a forum member that was supposed to shoot pretty good. I mounted a new Leupold VX3 3.5-10x40 on it (used to be my favorite scope). After two range trips in complete frustration and suspicion of the rifle being a lemon I removed the Leupold and mounted a proven scope on the rifle and returned to the range to find the rifle shot tight little groups. Yes they repaired it but man I had a bad taste in my mouth. Since then I did purchase a few more Leupolds but have since gone completely away from their products. It’s really hard to buy a product that you have personally seen fail several times and then to read testimonial after testimonial of their failures. I even purchased a $800 new VX6 which felt beyond cheap with a plastic turret that I just couldn’t keep. I’m at the point that I’d spend twice as much as my favorite VX3 3.5-10x40 cost just to ensure my equipment is reliable. It’s a shame to see the reputation of a legendary American company be so badly tarnished in suc a short time. Look at the prices that leupolds sell for used in the classifieds , it’s evident that their value is greatly diminished at this point.
I’ve had tracking/zero retention problems on several recent Leupold scopes and won’t buy another.
From now on, it’s Burris FFII for lighter rigs with 1” rings and SWFA or Nightforce for 30mm.
Really sad to see a company with such a great reputation go south.
Sounds like a plan.
Wonder what would happen if say, Light Optical started making hunting scopes with good adjustments and reliability and selling them direct under their own label, like SWFA, without SWFA, so to speak? Eliminate one more profit layer on a really good, simple scope, and sell it at a reasonable price.
I don't think things have changed at Leupold like a lot of people think. Over 20 years ago I was using Leupold scopes in competition and they had the same problems then as what guys are experiencing today. We didn't have a ton of choices for good high power scopes like we have today. I finally switched over to Weaver T series and all those goofy erector issues went away. So i contend they are still building the scopes of yesteryear but the people buying new scopes are getting smarter.
30 years ago I had two succesive scopes sent to leupold that came back with the same problem they went it with. One had no turret adjustment and the other fogged. They came back doing the same. I never since been a fan of leupold and since considered them highly over rated. Of many brands those leupold are the only scopes I have ever returned for repair. I wonder if the return rate overwhelms their service department. Considering the number of scopes sold over the years and the seemingly high return rate I can not imagine how many must show up at their door.
Only Leupold knows if the failure rate is greater than it used to be. I'd be interested in knowing what it is. I know that forum complaints are far more regular than they were 10 years ago.
Sounds like a plan.
Wonder what would happen if say, Light Optical started making hunting scopes with good adjustments and reliability and selling them direct under their own label, like SWFA, without SWFA, so to speak? Eliminate one more profit layer on a really good, simple scope, and sell it at a reasonable price.
Meopta tried to come out with a 6x series of scopes, poor little Swarovski got their panties in a wad and sued them. That is the legal issue an OEM supplier faces.
Only Leupold knows if the failure rate is greater than it used to be. I'd be interested in knowing what it is. I know that forum complaints are far more regular than they were 10 years ago.
I believe Leupold's changes are family related, the brains behind it all died, some key players also died and or left the company. The family who now runs it evidently has different ideas on how to run it .
The recent Leupold hate is hard to fathom. I have filled several freezers with meat and have a shelf of silhouette trophies that I earned using their scopes. No failures ever in a few dozen of their scopes, over 4+ decades. Is this all very recent production?
I don’t mean to discount anyone’s personal experiences, but it’s difficult to match up based on my own.
Bullshit
The recent Leupold hate is hard to fathom. I have filled several freezers with meat and have a shelf of silhouette trophies that I earned using their scopes. No failures ever in a few dozen of their scopes, over 4+ decades. Is this all very recent production?
I don’t mean to discount anyone’s personal experiences, but it’s difficult to match up based on my own.
Bullshit
I wonder how many years people have been tapping on their Leupolds after every adjustment to either get them to move,or stop moving?
F u c k leupold........ and their new vx3i 3.5x10-40......... F u c k ing back alley abortion scope....Leupold can take their riding the reputation of that ohhh sooo recognizable gold ring of theirs and shove it sideways up their a s s .......
I won't even buy a leupold lens pen.... switch to Nikon for those. And sightron for scopes.
Proud to say , I ain't a leupold fan boy anymore, out sporting my gold ring around thinking my scope is the greatest thing since sliced bread....
I have made it a point to tell people don't buy or trust new leupold scopes ..... f u c k ing grossly out of spec descending to the right trapiziod shooting abortion.....
Buyer beware.......
F u c k leupold........ and their new vx3i 3.5x10-40......... F u c k ing back alley abortion scope....Leupold can take their riding the reputation of that ohhh sooo recognizable gold ring of theirs and shove it sideways up their a s s .......
I won't even buy a leupold lens pen.... switch to Nikon for those. And sightron for scopes.
Proud to say , I ain't a leupold fan boy anymore, out sporting my gold ring around thinking my scope is the greatest thing since sliced bread....
I have made it a point to tell people don't buy or trust new leupold scopes ..... f u c k ing grossly out of spec descending to the right trapiziod shooting abortion.....
Buyer beware.......
Sightrons are LEGIT..........great choice.
The newly designed Weaver Grand Slams are pretty incredible a well.
Both actually have repeatable adjustments and very nice glass to go along with the internals.
I've always disliked leupold, hell, I even tried a few new ones out in the last few months to see if I was missing something. Nope, same old JUNK that I determined 20 years ago. Granted the older scopes were more reliable that the new ones.........but they never tracked well, and the glass has always been subpar (for what your paying...........VX3 and lower).
F u c k leupold........ and their new vx3i 3.5x10-40......... F u c k ing back alley abortion scope....Leupold can take their riding the reputation of that ohhh sooo recognizable gold ring of theirs and shove it sideways up their a s s .......
I won't even buy a leupold lens pen.... switch to Nikon for those. And sightron for scopes.
Proud to say , I ain't a leupold fan boy anymore, out sporting my gold ring around thinking my scope is the greatest thing since sliced bread....
I have made it a point to tell people don't buy or trust new leupold scopes ..... f u c k ing grossly out of spec descending to the right trapiziod shooting abortion.....
Buyer beware.......
Tell us how you really feel, LOL
Sightron SII 3x9-42 gonna go on my naked mod70ot6. If their S1 3x9-40 can handle the recoil of an H&R 20 ga USH with the pound weight bar taken out of the butt stock, shooting well over 100 rds of old school 410gr Hastings laser accurate discarding sabot slugs at 2000 fps over 3 yrs without drifting or losing zero. Then I'm very sure a SII will work on an ot6. And they have a lifetime warranty also.
F U C K LEUPOLD... they made their bed, now they can sleep in it.
High end late 70,s and early 80,s jap made Tasco scopes are better than the garbage leupold makes now and that's the fugging truth....
And I used to think i had a problem with them...
dave
I have sold a couple of rifles thinking they wouldn't shoot, but later realised it was the so called bulletproof Leupold that was the real problem, those scopes cost me a lot of wasted money but more importantly time.
I don't think things have changed at Leupold like a lot of people think. Over 20 years ago I was using Leupold scopes in competition and they had the same problems then as what guys are experiencing today. We didn't have a ton of choices for good high power scopes like we have today. I finally switched over to Weaver T series and all those goofy erector issues went away. So i contend they are still building the scopes of yesteryear but the people buying new scopes are getting smarter.
Same here. I ran a couple Weaver "T" and a then new to the business Sightron 36X. That Sightron was the cheese. If the condition was holding steady, I'd click windage rather than hold one edge or the other of the mothball. Always got what I asked for,and always came back to zero. That was when folks in BR were starting to freeze scopes,and building precision adjustable mounting systems. A lot of Leupolds were donated to the cause. Drilled and injected with epoxy. Don't recall any Nightforces or Marches being glued up.
With all the dialing and twisting going on these days,things are going to go wrong. Back in the day you were a hunter. You only touched those adjustments if you absolutely had to. For fear of losing what you already had. Ammo was supposed to last you. Not be wasted fiddling with a scope settings for the fun of it. I lived it. A box of new cartridges was a thing of beauty. Now,we have thousands of pieces of ammo,brass,bullets. Enough powder to start a store of our own. Things have changed. Demand is through the roof. People have buckets of disposable funds now. I can recognize and live within today's scheme of things.
What I won't tolerate is some snot of a kid at Leupold talking down to me. Patronizing me. Insulting me. When I have forgotten more about scopes,and their uses than he is ever going to know. The one I have at their service facility right now is the last one Ill ever send in. When it comes back,it's ear marked for liquidation. Immediate liquidation. When I say it's over,it's over.
I've lived through the best of times to be a rifleman in the U.S. Seen a lot of advancements. Loved every minute of it. But scooter at Leupold sealed their fate with me. Won't hurt them a bit. Unless 2,000,000 other devoted customers tell them to pound sand. Now it becomes a problem. Makes me no never mind. I live my life my way. I hate to see Americans caught up in another American institution falling off the map. Ill miss the gold rings. The pride in ownership. Supporting fellow Americans. I hope scooter has a great future as a Wal Mart greeter. His days at Leupold are numbered.
If Leupold allows 3 degrees of cant, as was mentioned by another poster, the error will be negligible out to a few hundred yards. It becomes more pronounced at longer ranges. How much error is introduced by a canted reticle isn't the issue however. QA and customer satisfaction are.
As I posted earlier, for $1500, Leupold should rectify the problem. Time to chat with a company rep, not the service department. A personal approach is best. Phone them again, or if Leupold won't deal with the problem, drop by the store and tell them you would like to chat with their rep. The store may even offer to help.
I will be contacting Leupold again, that is for damn sure. I will actually be very pleasant on the phone as I know the person on the other end was not the one who "passed the buck" on this issue. But I will be insistant on speaking with someone with "authority" to resolve it immediately. What really burns my azz is that it cost me almost $40 for insured postage to Leupold, they had the scope for 6 weeks, nobody contacts me asking "we can't find anything, what are you talking about", nobody bothered to look at the web link I included in the return with a very clear picture of the canted reticle. I am on vacation from work next week, but I may come in anyway and put the scope on an optical comparator. I can shine a light through the scope and measure within a RCH how for off the crosshairs are from level relative to the turret/scope base.
Honestly at this point I expect to receive a new scope for my trouble and their lack of finding the issue the first time. We shall see and I will update when I know something.
Send it back with a letter and a link to this thread.
If they care, they'll do something.
Lots of exposure here to those who buy scopes.
Bad news travels faster and farther than good news.
Whether or not they realize it, they can't afford to let their CS go south, as CS has long been a big marketing plus, even when stuff messes up. It's aggravating enough having to send one back, usually in the middle of hunting season, only to have them send it back, finding no problem when the problem is as plain as the nose on your face.
Keep us posted.
DF
They already know that there erector system sucks!!
The recent Leupold hate is hard to fathom. I have filled several freezers with meat and have a shelf of silhouette trophies that I earned using their scopes. No failures ever in a few dozen of their scopes, over 4+ decades. Is this all very recent production?
I don’t mean to discount anyone’s personal experiences, but it’s difficult to match up based on my own.
Bullshit
I guess I lied about it. Thanks for pointing that out.
sigh
Lol
I’ve found that if I read for long enough on the internet, that all the gear I’ve ever owned is garbage, our country is all but finished, and Hillary would have made an honest upstanding president. Luckily, I don’t believe everything I read.
its all good, but ya know a lot of folks are moving away from Leupold.
You're only 25% of the way towards getting your scope fixed. I had one that I sent those dumb bastards 4 times with accurate descriptions of the issue only to have it returned 3 times without anything done to it. I finally chewed some guys azz for 45 minutes in order to convince him that there was a problem that a 12 year old kid could diagnose. It finally came back repaired after the 4th time.
its all good, but ya know a lot of folks are moving away from Leupold.
I’m noticing. I had heard a little about it locally, but figured I would ask about it here to try to understand better.
It’s been over a decade since my shooting silhouette days, and the vast majority of shooters all used Leupolds back then save only a handful of antiques and a few guys experimenting with newer model Weavers. So I was inclined to call BS myself. Turns out, I’m just out of touch
Hell I must admit I thought all this Leupold bashing was just that, people over reacting to problems that happen to some degree with any manufactured system. But earlier this year I ordered a FX II 3x from the Leupold Custom Shop with the #4 reticule and when I received it,it was unfocusable. No amount of ocular twisting could make anything visible through the scope let alone get the reticle in focus. I still build up a little steam when I think about it. I can't imagine how effed up ones processes would have to be, to be in the business of making optical instruments and not even visually inspect one coming from your "Custom Shop." It has ruined Leupold for me, though I hate to say it.
My Leupold customer service experience was excellent. And, I really do like many features of the scope. Weight, clarity, CDS, eye box are all fantastic. But when it ceases to point to the same spot each shot the rest of the features become irrelevant.
Hell I must admit I thought all this Leupold bashing was just that, people over reacting to problems that happen to some degree with any manufactured system. But earlier this year I ordered a FX II 3x from the Leupold Custom Shop with the #4 reticule and when I received it,it was unfocusable. No amount of ocular twisting could make anything visible through the scope let alone get the reticle in focus. I still build up a little steam when I think about it. I can't imagine how effed up ones processes would have to be, to be in the business of making optical instruments and not even visually inspect one coming from your "Custom Shop." It has ruined Leupold for me, though I hate to say it.
You know for sure nothing happpend via USPS, UPS, FeDX?
I have a bunch of Leupolds, hope mine don’t start f....king up. They are all CDS models.
I have a bunch of Leupolds, hope mine don’t start f....king up. They are all CDS models.
Only CDS I bought was a 4-12, and I kept thinking the 300/221 had problems now and then. Then I realized that some misses after dialing were the scope.... I just had one a few weeks ago. I simply forgot to dial way down from the setting, then way up past the next setting and then back down to the needed setting. Lucky the 7 point just looked up, ran off a few steps and went back to eating... after readjusting the scope the next shot was right where I aimed... Nope I didn't screw up the first time.... good rest for gun, and for right elbow and such a chip shot around 112 steps....
As soon as I pay for a 458 Win mag I'll be saving for a 10x SS and put it on the 300/221 and send that and a 2.5-8 L back in that have given up the ghost.
I have a bunch of Leupolds, hope mine don’t start f....king up. They are all CDS models.
I got out ahead of the problem, welded all of mine together end to end and now I use 'em for walking sticks.
I have a bunch of Leupolds, hope mine don’t start f....king up. They are all CDS models.
Not an insult but how much do you really shoot and dial, honestly?
I have a bunch of Leupolds, hope mine don’t start f....king up. They are all CDS models.
I got out ahead of the problem, welded all of mine together end to end and now I use 'em for walking sticks.
😃😃😃
I have a bunch of Leupolds, hope mine don’t start f....king up. They are all CDS models.
Go shoot some 4 or 5 inch squares at 100yds . Start at zero, pair on each corner and rtz. Should have 4 nice tight shots at original zero... you might or might not like what you find out.......good luck...... Better to find out on paper, than out on a hunt......
I got rid of all my Leupolds except for one FX-III 6x42mm that's mounted on a compact .250-3000
Built the rifle years ago for my youngest whom is now grown. So, no pressing need to swap scopes as the rifle just sits in the safe.
.....but to fail TWICE on one of their "flagship" products... .
I've been singing this song for over five years, probably closer to 10. Use to take a beating around here for it. Good to see the 'fire coming around.
Same here, I first noticed that leupold wasn’t up to par about 13 years ago and no one wanted to hear it.
Leupold hasn't had a Flagship product for nearly 20 years.
I will be contacting Leupold again, that is for damn sure. I will actually be very pleasant on the phone as I know the person on the other end was not the one who "passed the buck" on this issue. But I will be insistant on speaking with someone with "authority" to resolve it immediately.
When you call. ask to speak to Bruce Pettit - CEO of Leupold Stevens. That ought to tighten up a few butt cheeks.
All this Leupold love made me feel a little sentimental, so I went and bought their best scope to date! A M-8 4x28 with friction adjustments. A little more ammo to zero, but the half dozen that have been through my hands always stayed there once put. Beautiful eye box, lightweight, long enough for a long action. Might have to grab another for a spare as they dont make them like this anymore.
Most if not all of my scopes are Leupolds and I just haven't had any issues with them.
Those of you who have lost or never had faith, are there any models in their lineup you think are solid i.e. MK4s, VX3i, etc? And that is a genuine question... I've been thinking about picking up a few more but am a little concerned on their newer models based on all the negative reviews.
My MK4s are definitely more solid than my VX3s. But who the heck wants a 30mm scope on a cruising around deer rifle?
And I don't shoot daily but shoot a good amount. The MK4s we had in the military were thought of highly as well.
My only complaint with them is that stupid gold ring on the objective bell. I hate that thing, especially on my more modern rifles, but can't even get their custom shop to swap them out with a subdued ring. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.... it's a petty complaint but damn they look stupid.
I have 10 Leupold scopes. 4 Redfield Revolutions and 6 VX's. My only complaint? You guessed it. They don't adjust as they should. I am not inclined to buy any more. My last 4 have not been Leupold.
FWIW Leupold never responded to the email I sent them.
And I don't shoot daily but shoot a good amount. The MK4s we had in the military were thought of highly as well.
My only complaint with them is that stupid gold ring on the objective bell. I hate that thing, especially on my more modern rifles, but can't even get their custom shop to swap them out with a subdued ring. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.... it's a petty complaint but damn they look stupid.
It takes only a minute to remove the front housing and the gold ring, paint to match.
And I don't shoot daily but shoot a good amount. The MK4s we had in the military were thought of highly as well.
My only complaint with them is that stupid gold ring on the objective bell. I hate that thing, especially on my more modern rifles, but can't even get their custom shop to swap them out with a subdued ring. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.... it's a petty complaint but damn they look stupid.
It takes only a minute to remove the front housing and the gold ring, paint to match.
Well, I tried / tested that on an older Leupold scope passed down and could stand to lose. I could not get that thing to come off... even tried a rubber strap wrench. I've been too scared to try it out on my newer more expensive models after that.
And I don't shoot daily but shoot a good amount. The MK4s we had in the military were thought of highly as well.
My only complaint with them is that stupid gold ring on the objective bell. I hate that thing, especially on my more modern rifles, but can't even get their custom shop to swap them out with a subdued ring. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.... it's a petty complaint but damn they look stupid.
One word "SHARPIE"
Most if not all of my scopes are Leupolds and I just haven't had any issues with them.
Those of you who have lost or never had faith, are there any models in their lineup you think are solid i.e. MK4s, VX3i, etc? And that is a genuine question... I've been thinking about picking up a few more but am a little concerned on their newer models based on all the negative reviews.
My MK4s are definitely more solid than my VX3s. But who the heck wants a 30mm scope on a cruising around deer rifle?
No. The $4k Mark 8's are the best they make and about 20% still have issues.
Everyone I hunt with has 30mm scope on hunting rifles. It's an aiming device, not a Rembrandt.
You need about 7.5-8.5 Mils of elevation (25 +/- moa) to get to 800 with most rigs. You can get that from a one inch tube in standard mount without having to go to a compensated base. That makes it harder for me to justify a 30mm scope on a light hunting rifle. No reason in the world someone can’t make a 16-18oz 1” 6x36, 10x40, 2-7x36, and or 2.5x10x40 mil/mil scope with bold enough reticle for hunting and a durable repeatable erector that provides enough travel to take most rigs to 800 in 2 turns. Just isn’t the priority. It wouldn’t be cool or fancy enough. And I know everyone gets juiced about ffp reticles now- but I still like the convenience of using a sfp reticle in a variable for quick easy ranging of targets of known size.
Just used my Leupy VX3 (I don't dial this particular one much) to dump a big muley buck at a whopping 40 yds. Figured I had to get real close in order for the L to work.
but I still like the convenience of using a sfp reticle in a variable for quick easy ranging of targets of known size.
? That would be a FFP's strong suit, not SFP.
Yes The FFP subtenssions are the same at every magnification, so they will measure the angle accurately at any magnification - allowing for accurate ranging at any magnification But with your 10x variable SFP which is accurate only at 10x the easy way to range is like this- a 1 meter target ie the ground to the belly or withers or length of belly line etc etc whatever your reference points given your game, you simply zoom in until you match that to 1 mil- check your magnification that’s your range- dial in your dope for that range, hold for wind and shoot. Same way you would use 2 Mils for a 2 meter target. Like a guy. I know you know what I’m talking about with this method, or will be surprised to find out you haven’t.
Edit. You aren’t going to hit a 1 moa Target first shot using that method to range it necessarily I won’t try to argue that it is precise But no methods based on a presumed size of a target are. I will not argue that an sfp mil reticle calibrated at 10x is the most useful configuration, but i have used it enough to know how effective and useful and fast it is in the field. No guess no lie.
Edit: just a brief expansion on what I’m talking about- with a vairiable ffp your Mils are always a mil, so you can alwys count how many Mils your target subtends, and convert to meters. With a sfp variable calibrated at 10x your magnification tells you what percentage of the way you are to 1000 meters. Just expanding your use of the metric system and your scope (protractor) as a slide rule.
Edit: this only works with an sfp reticle calibrated at 10x and I note that made no mention of that in my initial post- probably the source of confusion.
Most if not all of my scopes are Leupolds and I just haven't had any issues with them.
Those of you who have lost or never had faith, are there any models in their lineup you think are solid i.e. MK4s, VX3i, etc? And that is a genuine question... I've been thinking about picking up a few more but am a little concerned on their newer models based on all the negative reviews.
My MK4s are definitely more solid than my VX3s. But who the heck wants a 30mm scope on a cruising around deer rifle?
No. The $4k Mark 8's are the best they make and about 20% still have issues.
Everyone I hunt with has 30mm scope on hunting rifles. It's an aiming device, not a Rembrandt.
Wow, one out of every five is a pretty significant defect rate. Where did you find that stat?
And just to be clear, when I said 30mm, I was talking about tube diameter. They're bulkier / heavier... my comment was less about being a "Rembrandt" and more about weight.
I bet the new Leup hunting scopes fail at higher than 50%.
I bet the new Leup hunting scopes fail at higher than 50%.
Do you have any data, references, or anything grounded to back that up? Companies go through periods of poor quality control, no doubt about that. But claims that half of their products are defective, particularly from a company with a solid track record, should be substantiated. That is if we're to actually give the claim any consideration.
Somewhere around 2 dozen Vari-X III, VX-III and VX-3's over the past 30 plus years. Never a failure of any kind.
Maybe the 3i is not up to par, never held one. When they came out and the price went down $100, I stocked up on 3's.
But ya know, it's the internet, so if 9 people have had a problem with a Leupold in the past few years and ran to the fire to whine and moan about it, I guess every dam one of the millions they've ever made have been bad.
I bet the new Leup hunting scopes fail at higher than 50%.
Dude - you're seriously over-driving your headlights.
Fail at what? Dialing? Or just in-general?
Somewhere around 2 dozen Vari-X III, VX-III and VX-3's over the past 30 plus years. Never a failure of any kind.
Maybe the 3i is not up to par, never held one. When they came out and the price went down $100, I stocked up on 3's.
But ya know, it's the internet, so if 9 people have had a problem with a Leupold in the past few years and ran to the fire to whine and moan about it, I guess every dam one of the millions they've ever made have been bad.
I haven't owned many dozens but have owned quite a few and this sums up my experience as well. I picked up my first 3i a couple weeks ago and was dubious to the price drop too but thought I'd give it a try. Haven't had a chance to take it out yet but am not really that concerned.
I'm not married to Leupold but they've never let me down. For the price, they have always made a good scope. For me at least, significant valued add isn't realized from their competitors until you get up to S&B... and they're in a league of their own, price and all.
I bet the new Leup hunting scopes fail at higher than 50%.
Dude - you're seriously over-driving your headlights.
Fail at what? Dialing? Or just in-general?
This has turned into a Lemming parade. “Jump, jump, move aside I have to jump.”
I bet the new Leup hunting scopes fail at higher than 50%.
Dude - you're seriously over-driving your headlights.
Fail at what? Dialing? Or just in-general?
This has turned into a Lemming parade. “Jump, jump, move aside I have to jump.”
You may be the lemming?
As much as I want to like Leupolds I have wasted so much time and ammo on them it is hard to stay loyal.
Get a real scope and experience the joy.
Until more than one doesn't do what it needs to do....perhaps. Until then I'm good.
battue, you are a lucky man
You are not the first one to tell me that.
That being said, I'm just a run of the mill woods hunter. Most of us here in the East are and 300 is a poke; from the average distances most say they take game, it is poke for most. Leupold is more than up to the task when it comes to big game for the overwhelming number of hunters. If I had to "guess" a percentage it would be above 90%
Addition: Not saying some of the scopes thrown out don't interest me. But they would have little bearing on my success if I tried one.
Somewhere around 2 dozen Vari-X III, VX-III and VX-3's over the past 30 plus years. Never a failure of any kind.
Maybe the 3i is not up to par, never held one. When they came out and the price went down $100, I stocked up on 3's.
But ya know, it's the internet, so if 9 people have had a problem with a Leupold in the past few years and ran to the fire to whine and moan about it, I guess every dam one of the millions they've ever made have been bad.
Don't give a rat's ass about who said what on the internet. Don't give a fu#k about the "whine and moaning ". If someone had a problem with an expensive piece of gear,I'd like to know about it. I have Leupolds here older than a lot of the people posting here. What I won't tolerate is customer service,Ford ,Chevy,Cabelas or Leupold, treating me like the last 45 years of loyalty doesn't matter. Incidentally,the new Vx2 line is the cheapest piece of chit I've seen since the Tasco golden antler. Yep,I've had years of stellar service and products from Leupold,but the writing is on the wall my friend. There,a little internet rant and moan for y'all.
I had the old Redfield Denver made scopes for a long time. I had over 40 at one time. Most were the accutrac models. About half 3x9’s and half 4x12’s.
I’ve slowly changed to Talley split rings and VX III’s. I have sold most of the old Reds here in the classifieds. Of the 40 or so Reds 3 have gone bad [ internal adjustments stripped] optics still clear. That’s about 8% failure, but all lasted at least 30 years. If a scope lasts that long and goes bad is it a failure or is it worn out? If my truck makes 160,000 thousand miles with no major BS I think it’s been great, but worn out. I took caps and dials off those three yesterday, threw them in trash.
So, how long does a scope need to last to be considered a good scope. Should it last forever?
Think about like this- most rifles get fired maybe a few hundred times. So yes. They should hold up forever to that. Most rifles that have been “hunted hard for 30 years” have been out of the safe and used for like 210days. Not all that taxing for. Then there’s a handful of rifles out there that need a barrel every year- and maybe they might need a scope too. And that’s probably reasonably acceptable. I’d be fine with having to send a scope in for service every 5000-10000 rounds for instance. Pay your $50, have all wearable parts and seals replaced along with anything damaged or on the verge of failure, repurge and send it home. I would be way happier with that than a new free scope every year when the old one craps out unexpectedly “for no reason”
It’s way easier to break almost anything than it is to keep it serviceable.
I don't think it's so much that Leupold scopes or even others in the same price range are any worse than they ever were. The glass quality is actually a lot better and I suspect that adjustments are just as good and possibly slightly better. I just think that with communication being what it is today shooters are experimenting more with long range and dialing and these scopes just aren't up to the task.
For someone who sights the rifle in at 100 yards and then doesn't shoot it again until it's at a deer that is likely at very close range the scopes work fine. It doesn't even matter if they are off a couple inches from shot to shot because it's still well within hunting accuracy. Then when they go back to sight in again if it's off a small amount it's attributed to different ammo,or a shift in the rifle stock. It really doesn't matter. The point I'm trying to make is that I think that the vast majority of hunters and shooters aren't demanding precision. For those few who are you are seeing complaints about the products the rest use and think are great. The only thing that's different is communication. Today those few seem like a lot because of the ability to voice their complaints and be heard.
RHC, I agree, but would add the following. Leupold scopes with exposed (target turrets) are by their very nature intended to be dialed. Further, coopting those same controls onto the majority of Leupold’s model lines in the form of their CDS Dial created a very real performance expectation. Whether there’s a way to determine if Leupold meets that performance expectation is another matter and in my opinion an interesting one.
RHC, I agree, but would add the following. Leupold scopes with exposed (target turrets) are by their very nature intended to be dialed. Further, coopting those same controls onto the majority of Leupold’s model lines in the form of their CDS Dial created a very real performance expectation. Whether there’s a way to determine if Leupold meets that performance expectation is another matter and in my opinion an interesting one.
This, right here, absolutely nails it.
If Leupold quality is so bad, then which manufacturers are so much more superior at comparable prices? From my view, I just don't see their competitors as significantly better. I've had the opportunity to see both Leupolds and S&Bs in action overseas and both performed well in austere and heavy use conditions. S&B is without a doubt a offers a much better product, and I think it's clearly evident even when just handling them side by side, but their prices are also astronomical. When you get back down to Leupold prices and compare them against others like Vortex, Zeiss Conquest, and even Nigthforce, I'm just struggling to see the deficiencies.
Which Leupold scopes were you using overseas?
John Barsness just posted this on another thread a couple of hours ago. I think it helps explain a lot of the questions raised in this thread about the apparent disparity in what different members have encountered with Leupold scopes.
When you take into account that I only own a handful of rifles (and shoot them quite a lot), that are chambered for .270 Win, 30-06, 300 Win, 338 Win, 375 Ruger and 458 Win, it may help explain why my Leupold survival rate has been decidedly poor recently. If I owned 45 rifles, most of which fired a box of ammo or less each year and they were mostly 6.5 Creedmoor's or smaller, my experience may have been entirely different.
Having said that, my older Vari-X and M8 Leupold's had a better track record (at holding POI) than the newer stuff, even on my large rifles. Back when I was a dyed in the wool loyalist, circa 1999 or 2000, I remember bragging that I had only had one Vari-X III scope break out of 14, and that was on a particularly vicious 300 Weatherby lightweight rifle. These days, I have sent five of my last seven back for not holding their POI. I have a couple of new fixed power Leupolds that I have not used yet, but I am pretty unlikely to try another variable in the near future, unless it is on a small caliber rifle. Even then, I would probably have more faith in a Burris.
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...ness-questions-about-testing-riflescopesThe difference in consistent dialing scopes is basically tougher springs, and far fewer plastic or soft-metal parts in the turrets, erector tube, etc. Which is why effective dialing scopes typically weigh a lot more than typical "hunting" scopes: They're beefed up in the right areas.
That said, one reason the SWFA scopes are so reliable yet cost relatively little is they're sold directly to buyers on the Internet, rather than through the typical layers of wholesalers/distributors/retailers. Each of those layers needs to make a profit, so adds to the price to consumers. Plus, SWFA offers a number of fixed-power scopes, which can be made for less money than variables. Not nearly as many scope companies offer fixed scopes anymore.
It's my experience that more typical 1" hunting scopes are failing to retain zero these days, for a couple of reasons. First, there's increased competition in the marketplace. More of today's shooters own far more rifles that they used to in the decades after WWII, when scopes started becoming common on rifles. Back then most hunters had one big game rifle and, maybe a varmint rifle. Nowadays it's common for some hunters (especially the ones who frequent the Campfire) to own several rifles, and maybe several dozen. I've even seen posts where guys essentially brag about only having 4-5 rifles.
Most people think every rifle needs a scope these days, so they also buy more scopes. Many of these shooters spend the same time shooting all of their many rifles that our grandfathers might have spent shooting 2 rifles, so many of their multiple rifles don't get shot all that much. This isn't because we don't want to shoot more, but many of us can't. Today about 85% of Americans live in urban areas, where just getting to a shooting range takes considerable effort.
Plus, we're often using smaller cartridges than our grandfathers used. Instead of one all-around .30-06, we have rifles for cartridges from, say, the .223 Remington to the 7mm-08, with maybe one .300 magnum. There's a big difference in recoil's effect on a scope between those smaller rounds and a .300 magnum, or even a .30-06 or 7mm magnum. Often we have these because another modern American trend is spending more time fiddling with our outdoor gear (including dreaming about buying more) than actually going out and using it, because of where we live.
Consequently, most scope manufacturers (or importers, which is far more often the case these days, when most optics companies order scopes instead of building them) know the vast majority of their scopes will go on relatively mild-recoiling rifles that won't shot all that much. This is why most claim even sub-$100 scopes are "recoil and shock proof." On the average deer rifle, shot a few times a year, they probably are--and even if they fail, so what? Replacing 3-5% of their scopes is cheaper than building truly recoil-proof scopes--and with so many optics companies out there today, price is a big competitive point. This also applies to "dialing scopes," because most shooters aren't going to dial them much.
Because most shooters don't really shoot much, especially hunters, they don't have much trouble with these scopes. But those who do shoot a lot have more scopes fail, especially on rifles that kick more than a .223, .243 or 7-08, particularly if they dial them a lot.
Right now I've had 17 different brands of scopes fail mechanically on rifles, some on relatively mild kickers. That's brands, not scopes; some brands have failed multiple times. This has happened far more in the past 20 years than before then.
"Replacing 3-5% of their scopes is cheaper than building truly recoil-proof scopes--and with so many optics companies out there today, price is a big competitive point. This also applies to "dialing scopes," because most shooters aren't going to dial them much."
Herein lies the problem, we're not just talking about $100 scopes anymore. It appears many in the industry apply this same business strategy to $1000+ scopes.
where did you serve? What Leupolds did you see in service overseas?
Damn! I only have one Leupold I twist, it's an old 6.5-20x50 Long Range, it's been fail safe for over 15 years I guess, now paranoid, I'm gonna run it some more to make sure, ASAP.
Ran mine through a small 12 round drill last weekend, 1 2 3 4 5 5 4 3 2 1 hundred, then drilled the 700 yard gong a couple times, returned to zero and waiting on a pig or coyote
When customers become company quality control. That speaks for itself...... I dont care how many they make and how"few" in ratio to that number fail. Lose my trust in your product, I will cut any fanboy ties that existed. I'm 54, was a lupy fanboy since 17. No more, never again........
I was in the Marine Corps infantry. Three deployments to Iraq. We used Mk4s on our "designated marksman" rifles... probably around ten in a rifle company, sitting atop M16's. In addition, the battalion's sniper platoon packed M40s and Barrets. They had the S&B's.
I saw more ACOGs fail then I did Mk4's. Now... they were standard issue on every rifle, so every cat had one, so numbers probably don't matter. Not an indictment of Trijicon, they make a grunt proof scope, but I don't recall Leupold MK4 failures being an issue. I'm sure some did but if it were systemic, I would have heard about it.
The variable MK4s I was around in the Army most certainly had problems. In fact, I had to yank the 3.5-10 off my M14 in Iraq and go back to iron sights after the scope quit.
So nobody has actually lost their sheit? It’s starting to sound like we won’t have to cancel Christmas.
In all honesty, this thread hasn’t convinced me to change my position on owning and using Leupold. Personal experience has been pretty good.
Many here seem more conflicted with their price point than their performance. If you need to spend more, or less, nothing is stopping you.
I saw more ACOGs fail then I did Mk4's. Now... they were standard issue on every rifle, so every cat had one, so numbers probably don't matter. Not an indictment of Trijicon, they make a grunt proof scope, but I don't recall Leupold MK4 failures being an issue. I'm sure some did but if it were systemic, I would have heard about it.
No offense... they were well regarded because dudes didn't know any better. When your only experience is with a 4x Acog mounted on a non floated M16 shooting greentip; a 3-9x Leupold on a MK12 or SDM rifle with 77gr SMK's is worlds better. Just about any optic/gun/ammo combination is better. There is a reason the 8541's weren't using Leupolds....
Leupold Mark 4 variables have the highest failure rates of any US mil issued sniper optic. Roughly 20 times higher than Nightforce and twice as high as the PSR S&B's. Those are/were the numbers returned to Crane. That's outright failures- not including all the scopes that track and adjust incorrectly, lose zero, failure to return to zero, etc, etc. I've seen hundreds of Mark 4's tested. Fully 30% have major problems out of the box, of the ones that work "ok" the vast majority will have a zero shift, tracking errors, or failure to return to zero within 400-500 rounds.
Here's one simple reason why you didn't see or hear of problems- you never pulled the same Lot of ammo from range trip to range trip. Why is that the first thing done on a live fire range is to zero, even when an individual zeroed his rifle two weeks before? Different lot numbers and zero shift.
As the OP on this thread I will provide an update as to my situation, the rest is a rabbit hole I won't go down.
To recap:
1. New VX-6 with a reticle canted relative to the elevation turret
2. Sent in to Leupold, 6 weeks gone and returned with no repair done
3. THIS is what set me off, not the scope problem but no communication or look at the very detailed description and photo of the problem
Here is the latest update:
The technical service person I have been communicating with has been excellent. He has called me pretty much daily with updates. He sent me a UPS label to overnight the scope back to him, and took it to the repair department personally. Apparently there is a +/- 1.5 degree acceptability and it was "off but within spec". It went back-and-forth internally twice but scope now has a new reticle installed and is dead-nutz on according to him, Given the approaching holidays I should expect to see it possibly late next week or week after. I do feel like my issue has been addressed about as well as it could have been (short of just sending me a new scope).
The technical service person I have been communicating with has been excellent. He has called me pretty much daily with updates. He sent me a UPS label to overnight the scope back to him, and took it to the repair department personally.
The power of social media like the Campfire is a wonderful thing to behold..........I thinking somebody at Leupold has glanced through this thread.........
The technical service person I have been communicating with has been excellent. He has called me pretty much daily with updates. He sent me a UPS label to overnight the scope back to him, and took it to the repair department personally.
The power of social media like the Campfire is a wonderful thing to behold..........I thinking somebody at Leupold has glanced through this thread.........
They’re just praying this stays off FB and Twitter.
The technical service person I have been communicating with has been excellent. He has called me pretty much daily with updates. He sent me a UPS label to overnight the scope back to him, and took it to the repair department personally.
The power of social media like the Campfire is a wonderful thing to behold..........I thinking somebody at Leupold has glanced through this thread.........
They’re just praying this stays off FB and Twitter.
Whiners clubs. They can’t be taken seriously by anyone over 30
I saw more ACOGs fail then I did Mk4's. Now... they were standard issue on every rifle, so every cat had one, so numbers probably don't matter. Not an indictment of Trijicon, they make a grunt proof scope, but I don't recall Leupold MK4 failures being an issue. I'm sure some did but if it were systemic, I would have heard about it.
No offense... they were well regarded because dudes didn't know any better. When your only experience is with a 4x Acog mounted on a non floated M16 shooting greentip; a 3-9x Leupold on a MK12 or SDM rifle with 77gr SMK's is worlds better. Just about any optic/gun/ammo combination is better. There is a reason the 8541's weren't using Leupolds....
Leupold Mark 4 variables have the highest failure rates of any US mil issued sniper optic. Roughly 20 times higher than Nightforce and twice as high as the PSR S&B's. Those are/were the numbers returned to Crane. That's outright failures- not including all the scopes that track and adjust incorrectly, lose zero, failure to return to zero, etc, etc. I've seen hundreds of Mark 4's tested. Fully 30% have major problems out of the box, of the ones that work "ok" the vast majority will have a zero shift, tracking errors, or failure to return to zero within 400-500 rounds.
Here's one simple reason why you didn't see or hear of problems- you never pulled the same Lot of ammo from range trip to range trip. Why is that the first thing done on a live fire range is to zero, even when an individual zeroed his rifle two weeks before? Different lot numbers and zero shift.
My experiences are from the field, and should be considered anecdotal as are the overwhelming majority of posts on this thread, when compared to controlled quality testing. Now, I was in a position of accountability over our ordnance and had to sign-off on every piece of dermo'd serialized equipment. Trends would have been more apparent to me than the average trigger puller but again, I recognize this is less than scientific.
You sound like your speaking from a position a bit up the supply chain with access to test results most of us haven't been exposed to. I'd be interested to see where and how you obtained your data. I'm not married to the Leupold brand but in the absence of any substantiated reporting, from verifiable sources who have done extensive testing with meaningful sample sizes, all we're left with are anecdotal accounts.
Please share the source of your figures. It would contribute greatly to this thread.
The 3-9x40 Leupold vx-1 on my .30-06 worked fine for me again this season. Two shots, two dead deer, both hit right where I intended. My pre season zero verification target has 3 shots in one ragged hole at 100.
The 3-9x40 Leupold vx-1 on my .30-06 worked fine for me again this season. Two shots, two dead deer, both hit right where I intended. My pre season zero verification target has 3 shots in one ragged hole at 100.
Are you bragging that it has worked perfectly for 5 shots? I think that's the point I was making in my last post.
The 3-9x40 Leupold vx-1 on my .30-06 worked fine for me again this season. Two shots, two dead deer, both hit right where I intended. My pre season zero verification target has 3 shots in one ragged hole at 100.
Are you bragging that it has worked perfectly for 5 shots? I think that's the point I was making in my last post.
That rifle/scope combo does only have about 200 rounds through it in the two years I've had it. I have no need to put thousands of rounds per year through my .30-06. I'm a damn good shot and always have been since I was a kid but most of my "practice" is done with my .22 rimfires and .223's. I also have no need to twist turrets and/or shoot at deer a half mile away.
I have sold a couple of rifles thinking they wouldn't shoot, but later realised it was the so called bulletproof Leupold that was the real problem, those scopes cost me a lot of wasted money but more importantly time.
I too was one of the Leupold long time fan club members. There was a time in which i believed if you didn't have a Leupold on your rifle you didnt have sh$t. Then I had the same thing happen to me. Bought a brand new VXL 3.5-10X56 from cabelas as soon as they came out. Paid 1000 bucks for it. At the time the most expensive scope i had ever purchased by a long shot. Put it on a A-bolt Medallion .06. Wouldn't group after trying several different ammo's. Sold gun at a big loss and bought A-bolt Stainless Stalker 270wsm. Same problems. This was in the early stages of the short mag calibers arrivals on the seen. I had an uncle at the time that swore the 270wsm was too hot of a load and a lot of people had trouble with them grouping and he almost had me sold. Sold that gun for $600 so that was a couple hundred dollar loss not counting the several boxes of premium ammo. Next up was a 85 Grey Wolf in 270wsm. Same problems again. This was all over an year-year and a half time frame. Same scope on all 3 rifles with same results. Sold the entire setup for $1,400. Gun, scope, sling, optilocks, ammo the whole nine yards. Probably lost over a grand on that deal but just wanted to get rid of the headaches go back to the drawing board. Several years later read a article online about the VXL's being notorious for this problem. Pretty positive that was the problem. After losing close to $2,000 in 3 rifles, the scope, couple sets of rings and bases and premium ammo. I cant say for 100% sure it was the scope but id bet about a months salary on it. I also will never purchase another Leupold product unless for some reason it comes on a rifle that is such a good deal i cannot pass up.
OP hope they get everything worked out for you! Good luck!
Randall
Jesus H Christ. I’ve never heard so many old men complain
Jesus H Christ. I’ve never heard so many old men complain
Shhhh. Adults are talking.
Leupold is an American company and has backed their product well over the years. I think they are the reason that most other companies back their products now. Scope failures is not a new issue but people shooting a lot more is contributing to it. The average hunter that fires less than a box of shells a decade is not likely to notice many problems taking his deer at the customary 75-150 yards. I've seen Leupold replace scopes that failed because a fellow fell off a rock pile and dropped his rifle on it's scope. That's not Leupold's fault but they replaced it anyway.
I can only imagine the struggle Leupold has with competition now days. There are few optical manufacturers putting out world class glass and one is in Japan , the other in Germany. Great glass is very expensive. No company I know of is going to sell a scope with the best glass cheap. They have too much invested in it. Labor is expensive also and our country's labor is more expensive than just about anywhere in the world.
I have read threads on various forums that people have posted that they send their scopes in yearly to have Leupold check them out and service them even though the have no trouble with them. This kind of service with a smile costs money and to me at least it is understandable how some bad things can be missed. This kind of service is expensive to maintain.
No company wants to intentionally give the customer a raw deal. It's just bad business and in the current WWW environment it can and is costly. Sometimes it just happens during the course of messing with thousands of scopes that customers demand to be attended to whether they are broke or not.
I must have 30+ Leupold "set and check a couple times a year scopes" on hunting rifles, they're wonderfully clear and dependable, they will remain right where they are.
I have three NF's and one old Leupold for twisting, 99.9% of the game I shoot is way inside 400 yards and is done with the set and check Leupold glass or with Sharps rifles and barrel buckhorn iron sights.
The technical service person I have been communicating with has been excellent. He has called me pretty much daily with updates. He sent me a UPS label to overnight the scope back to him, and took it to the repair department personally.
The power of social media like the Campfire is a wonderful thing to behold..........I thinking somebody at Leupold has glanced through this thread.........
Leupold is a $100M per year company, which is both good and bad probably. I doubt they give a rip about the 'fire.
The technical service person I have been communicating with has been excellent. He has called me pretty much daily with updates. He sent me a UPS label to overnight the scope back to him, and took it to the repair department personally.
The power of social media like the Campfire is a wonderful thing to behold..........I thinking somebody at Leupold has glanced through this thread.........
Leupold is a $100M per year company, which is both good and bad probably. I doubt they give a rip about the 'fire.
I did send them a link to this thread. In today's world, I don't know how you can ignore social media. It matters. A lot. The word is out on Leupold and informed buyers are taking what they read on the internet into account. Leupold has been dropping their prices over the past few years. A healthy company, selling a quality product that is in high demand doesn't lower their prices do they? Just thinking out loud. I'd love to sit in on one of their board of directors meetings.
They take care of you and what happens? Well, the next person who has a problem, legit or not, comes on here and the same thing happens all over again. They gained nothing by ensuring your satisfaction.
They probably should quit trying to be everyman's scope. Make the best scope they can, raise the price to be competitive with that level of quality, and quit messing with those who do not appreciate their current business model.
I don't know what the profit margin is on high end scopes, but I do have a handle on what it is with high end shotguns. They make a solid shotgun, market it well and tack on the profit which allows them to sell less and live good. Leupold currently is the Chevy, Ford, Dodge of the scope business. It doesn't always have to be that way.
If i was in the boardroom we would be giving consideration to exactly that.
Paul, they re-designed lots of their products, supposedly resulting in lower costs/prices. Swarovski did the same thing when they came out with their new SLC HD, now just called the SLC....big price drop.
I could be wrong, but I think leupold could fix their scope problems with !title expense. Simply upgrade , and beef up the quality of their components. Stronger springs, metal internals.I don't know anybody that wouldn't pay an extra $20 if it meant that their scope would return to, and maintain zero. I don't think they have to reinvent the wheel.
I could be wrong, but I think leupold could fix their scope problems with !title expense. Simply upgrade , and beef up the quality of their components. Stronger springs, metal internals.I don't know anybody that wouldn't pay an extra $20 if it meant that their scope would return to, and maintain zero. I don't think they have to reinvent the wheel.
That's the way I think about it. Upgrading the quality of a few of the parts can't cost that much or add that much weight. It would be interesting to see Leupold beef up the internals and market that line as Heavy Duty to sell alongside what they have now. I know which one I'd buy assuming the price difference is what we think it would be. If we added 3-4 ounces to a 12-14 ounce scope I could easily live with that.
I think Formid is right in his analysis. IIRC he states that the reason more scopes aren't built to hold zero is because most people don't demand it (don't shoot that much). I wish they did too.
Wow I purchased and installed the same scope on my 6.5 X 300 as the OP is having trouble with. I took a cow elk with it in November. But I will take the rifle out and give it a good look to see if reticle and turrets are off. I mounted it by leveling the reticle and never paid any attention to the turrets. Now my curiosity is killing me. I got to get it out and check.
I think Formid is right in his analysis. IIRC he states that the reason more scopes aren't built to hold zero is because most people don't demand it (don't shoot that much). I wish they did too.
Formid knows his stuff..... His word carries weight in my view. Unbiased real results. He says it in a nice way,,,,, whether a scope is a POS or not. That's the bottom line.....
I think Formid is right in his analysis. IIRC he states that the reason more scopes aren't built to hold zero is because most people don't demand it (don't shoot that much). I wish they did too.
Most people don't have the money to shoot thousands of rounds of centerfire ammo in a year. Others who could if they wanted to just don't see the need as they kill all the game they want to without.
I could be wrong, but I think leupold could fix their scope problems with !title expense. Simply upgrade , and beef up the quality of their components. Stronger springs, metal internals.I don't know anybody that wouldn't pay an extra $20 if it meant that their scope would return to, and maintain zero. I don't think they have to reinvent the wheel.
That's the way I think about it. Upgrading the quality of a few of the parts can't cost that much or add that much weight. It would be interesting to see Leupold beef up the internals and market that line as Heavy Duty to sell alongside what they have now. I know which one I'd buy assuming the price difference is what we think it would be. If we added 3-4 ounces to a 12-14 ounce scope I could easily live with that.
Quantity versus quality.... Rather have quality and reliability myself......
I think Formid is right in his analysis. IIRC he states that the reason more scopes aren't built to hold zero is because most people don't demand it (don't shoot that much). I wish they did too.
I don't know how to demand it other than moving away from their scopes. FWIW my last 4 scopes have not been Leupold. While I personally haven't experienced a failure other than failure to track correctly, I have read enough to turn me off.
The 3-9x40 Leupold vx-1 on my .30-06 worked fine for me again this season. Two shots, two dead deer, both hit right where I intended. My pre season zero verification target has 3 shots in one ragged hole at 100.
Are you bragging that it has worked perfectly for 5 shots? I think that's the point I was making in my last post.
That rifle/scope combo does only have about 200 rounds through it in the two years I've had it. I have no need to put thousands of rounds per year through my .30-06. I'm a damn good shot and always have been since I was a kid but most of my "practice" is done with my .22 rimfires and .223's. I also have no need to twist turrets and/or shoot at deer a half mile away.
Yes Sir. I understand your point,and that's the point that I was making. Under those conditions your Leupold will likely perform just fine. It's only when folks start twisting the turrets and getting into shooting more that they have trouble.
The 3-9x40 Leupold vx-1 on my .30-06 worked fine for me again this season. Two shots, two dead deer, both hit right where I intended. My pre season zero verification target has 3 shots in one ragged hole at 100.
Are you bragging that it has worked perfectly for 5 shots? I think that's the point I was making in my last post.
That rifle/scope combo does only have about 200 rounds through it in the two years I've had it. I have no need to put thousands of rounds per year through my .30-06. I'm a damn good shot and always have been since I was a kid but most of my "practice" is done with my .22 rimfires and .223's. I also have no need to twist turrets and/or shoot at deer a half mile away.
Yes Sir. I understand your point,and that's the point that I was making. Under those conditions your Leupold will likely perform just fine. It's only when folks start twisting the turrets and getting into shooting more that they have trouble.
No, it's not. I've seen several Leupold variables quit on basic hunting rifles that didn't see many days in the field or rounds per year.
I think Formid is right in his analysis. IIRC he states that the reason more scopes aren't built to hold zero is because most people don't demand it (don't shoot that much). I wish they did too.
Most people don't have the money to shoot thousands of rounds of centerfire ammo in a year. Others who could if they wanted to just don't see the need as they kill all the game they want to without.
Agreed.
The 3-9x40 Leupold vx-1 on my .30-06 worked fine for me again this season. Two shots, two dead deer, both hit right where I intended. My pre season zero verification target has 3 shots in one ragged hole at 100.
Are you bragging that it has worked perfectly for 5 shots? I think that's the point I was making in my last post.
That rifle/scope combo does only have about 200 rounds through it in the two years I've had it. I have no need to put thousands of rounds per year through my .30-06. I'm a damn good shot and always have been since I was a kid but most of my "practice" is done with my .22 rimfires and .223's. I also have no need to twist turrets and/or shoot at deer a half mile away.
Yes Sir. I understand your point,and that's the point that I was making. Under those conditions your Leupold will likely perform just fine. It's only when folks start twisting the turrets and getting into shooting more that they have trouble.
No, it's not. I've seen several Leupold variables quit on basic hunting rifles that didn't see many days in the field or rounds per year.
On the other hand I've got a 25 year old Vari-xIIc on my .30-30 that's seen thousands of rounds and still works/holds zero perfectly. I also have several Weaver Classics varying in age from 10-25 years of which I can say the same.
The 3-9x40 Leupold vx-1 on my .30-06 worked fine for me again this season. Two shots, two dead deer, both hit right where I intended. My pre season zero verification target has 3 shots in one ragged hole at 100.
Are you bragging that it has worked perfectly for 5 shots? I think that's the point I was making in my last post.
That rifle/scope combo does only have about 200 rounds through it in the two years I've had it. I have no need to put thousands of rounds per year through my .30-06. I'm a damn good shot and always have been since I was a kid but most of my "practice" is done with my .22 rimfires and .223's. I also have no need to twist turrets and/or shoot at deer a half mile away.
Yes Sir. I understand your point,and that's the point that I was making. Under those conditions your Leupold will likely perform just fine. It's only when folks start twisting the turrets and getting into shooting more that they have trouble.
No, it's not. I've seen several Leupold variables quit on basic hunting rifles that didn't see many days in the field or rounds per year.
Then I may be completely wrong in my assessment. Were those perhaps newer models?
Let's see..... had a 2-7x 33 on my rifle from 95 - 02 no issue,s. 8 yrs.... right around 350 rd count
Upgraded to a 2.5-8 x36 from 02 -16 no issue,s 15yrs..... 475- 500ish rd count
Upgraded to vx3i 3.5- 10x40 late fall 2016, 37 rds.......all of a sudden I had a mod70ot6 that had every scope issue one could experience. Sent it in , stayed on their case via phone....they finally said begrudingly it shot a grossly out of spec trapiziod descending to the right and had issues pairing shots....(problems they didnt want to beleive i informed them of via phone and notes included with scope) Sent a brand new in the box replacement, sold next day. That right their told the me the whole story I needed to know about the new leupold business model..... If it is cheaper and easier for them to replace rather than repair a scope, then that means to me they are making stuff that is cheap to produce with a great profit margin. Sell 100 of em and hope 80- 90 of em work fairly decent for your average hunter.... BUYER BEWARE OF NEW LEUPOLD SCOPES......
Yeah, I had an old Vari-XII 3-9 that was the same way - held zero and worked great, as well as a 2-7 and 6-18 from that era that are still chugging along. The newer Leupolds seem to be the scopes having the most issues. I think that's why others are having trouble wrapping their minds around the issues, as they seem to be the guys who have a bunch of old Leupolds that continue to work.
Just this season I saw two Leupolds made within the last few years with large zero shifts and not be able to rezero (adjustments went completely wonky), and another which saw a massive zero shift but adjusted back on target and was able to finish the hunt (the last one was on my own rifle).
What I expect out of a scope is , it will correctly adjust per advertised click value. Hold groups. Hold a precise zero and not drift....... That is not alot to ask......
Damn, wish the holidays weren't here, I'd spend the weekend re-shooting 40 rifles with a nice bottle of 12 year Glenmorangie and hand rolled Dominicans.
My two varivx II 6x18 crapped out at around 250 rounds each, give or take a few . Three times each they went back. Weak erector springs each time. I was dialing them. I am pretty sure that for the price of shipping, heavier springs could have been manufactured an installed.......
Damn, wish the holidays weren't here, I'd spend the weekend re-shooting 40 rifles with a nice bottle of 12 year Glenmorangie and hand rolled Dominicans.
That sounds horrible... call me if you need some help
My two varivx II 6x18 crapped out at around 250 rounds each, give or take a few . Three times each they went back. Weak erector springs each time. I was dialing them. I am pretty sure that for the price of shipping, heavier springs could have been manufactured an installed.......
Yep! I sure don't trust Leupold for dialing use, whether new or old (except maybe the Mark 4 Fixed Powers) - this 6-18 was on a point and shoot prairie dog rifle.
Scopes made for dailing should do so, manufacturers that want to enter that game should make scopes that hold up to that game. Their hunting scopes need to be able to be rock solid also. Adjust, hold groups, hold precise zero, not drift.
Damn, wish the holidays weren't here, I'd spend the weekend re-shooting 40 rifles with a nice bottle of 12 year Glenmorangie and hand rolled Dominicans.
That sounds horrible... call me if you need some help
Yes, we can stagger 20 yards out the back door and shoot the bench to 600.
Damn, wish the holidays weren't here, I'd spend the weekend re-shooting 40 rifles with a nice bottle of 12 year Glenmorangie and hand rolled Dominicans.
That sounds horrible... call me if you need some help
Yes, we can stagger 20 yards out the back door and shoot the bench to 600.
If you didn’t have to go outside, then you’d really have it made.
What I expect out of a scope is , it will correctly adjust per advertised click value. Hold groups. Hold a precise zero and not drift....... That is not alot to ask......
What he said.
Damn, wish the holidays weren't here, I'd spend the weekend re-shooting 40 rifles with a nice bottle of 12 year Glenmorangie and hand rolled Dominicans.
That sounds horrible... call me if you need some help
Yes, we can stagger 20 yards out the back door and shoot the bench to 600.
If you didn’t have to go outside, then you’d really have it made.
Might blowout a little house glass from the concussion blasts
, grab a couple of sticks of firewood on the way back in to warm up and freshen drinks ;]
...Sold the entire setup for $1,400. Gun, scope, sling, optilocks, ammo the whole nine yards. Probably lost over a grand on that deal but just wanted to get rid of the headaches go back to the drawing board...
Story of my life. It makes me cringe to think back over the last 30 years and realize just how much money I lost by selling guns or hunting related gear at "to move" prices. I stopped selling any sporting equipment or firearms I own 5 years ago. I have a project in the works, but I'm not going to sell anything to fund it. It will just take a little while longer until my slush fund has enough in it to pay my gunsmith to put the rifle together.
P
Yes, we can stagger 20 yards out the back door and shoot the bench to 600.
If you didn’t have to go outside, then you’d really have it made.
Might blowout a little house glass from the concussion blasts
, grab a couple of sticks of firewood on the way back in to warm up and freshen drinks ;]
I figured you’d open the door.
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I was a HUGE rabid fan of Leupold scopes. I presently own no less than 5 older discontinued VariX-II models. I also am a person who's love of shooting is second only to his love of family. Such is my love of shooting that it is nothing for me to sit and fire off 50-100 12 gauge 2.75" magnum sabot slugs or an equal amount of 12 gauge foster slugs. I have put at least 1500 and counting loads through my T/C Encore 209x50 Magnum ML, at least 1000 and counting out of my Savage 10ML-II, and about 700 out of my M700 in 338wm, like number out of my 300wm M700. All with Leupold VariX-II scopes. No issues encountered what so ever. These are the set it and for get it type of scopes Leupold built their reputation on.
When I decided to get me a lite weight medium long range rifle I ended up buying a VX-6 in 2-12x40 with CDS turrets as it without doubt fit my requierments better than any other scope I could afford. Then much to my utter dismay I started reading what were in my expereince never before seen posts that in great detail describing failures suffered by my exact scope model, and a very great many of them. All the same problems, failure to hold zero, return to zero or adjust POI while hunting. I even watched a you tube video where a woman was trying out here brand new very high $$$ long range specific rifle topped with a Leupold MK6 scope failed to hold zero or adjust when used for the VERY 1st time while making this video. I understand EVERY scope maker produces lemons, but am I out of line in thinking a $2000+ scope that can not hold zero or adjust accurately should not make it past QC and out of the factory in the 1st place?
Im talking posts complete with names of Leupold CS people, copies of the back and forth letters and emails to Leupold CS. I got so spooked I sold my NIB VX6 without ever opening it and bought a Zeiss Conquest HD5. All of the negative posts I have read about the new Leupolds have been nearly all those of a tactical designed and are meant to be adjusted then returned to zero repeatedly over and over countless times.
I then read a posting that detailed why this is likely happening at Leupold. The posting stated there was a changing of the guard so to speak in Leupolds top tear management after the previous person or persons in charge retired, the new person or persons #1 motivation was maximizing of profits and they started by out sourcing certain components of their scopes internal parts responsible for adjusting and maintaining zero to over sees contractors. This is when supposedly Leupolds QC began to slide and is the reason for it's continued decline along with Leupolds reputation.
I could not confirm this as true or not, but others contributing to the post agreed as it being accurate. If true and Leupold is allowing it's QC to slip in favor of higher profits and they are now relying more on the reputation than maintaining it, dark days are ahead of them I fear. I know my last three scope purchases were not leupolds, and honestly I doubt I will buy any in the future. When I bought my boys JM stamped 336ca's for deer hunting in Indiana and my T3 I put Bushnell 4200's on the Marlins and Zeiss Conquest HD5 on my T3.
Truly saddens me.
Lots of stats tossed out, i.e. 50% failure rate, 90% failure rate, 20x more failures compared to x brand... yet no details offered up concerning sources for data or testing methodology that could be reproduced. Feels like there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on in this thread and forum.
Lots of stats tossed out, i.e. 50% failure rate, 90% failure rate, 20x more failures compared to x brand... yet no details offered up concerning sources for data or testing methodology that could be reproduced. Feels like there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on in this thread and forum.
Believe that if you wish
But you are what i like to call "wrong"
Lots of stats tossed out, i.e. 50% failure rate, 90% failure rate, 20x more failures compared to x brand... yet no details offered up concerning sources for data or testing methodology that could be reproduced. Feels like there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on in this thread and forum.
Believe that if you wish
But you are what i like to call "wrong"
Prove it. I'm not brand loyal. I would however, like to see something close to verifiable with respect to the claims put forth. Any thing less is just bro-science.
All you have to do is look at the "L" branding on their rings. Some CEO has taken over who will use the brand to make profit until it is run into the ground. Im still a Leupold fan, but all mine have M-8 on them and have friction adjustments.
Lots of stats tossed out, i.e. 50% failure rate, 90% failure rate, 20x more failures compared to x brand... yet no details offered up concerning sources for data or testing methodology that could be reproduced. Feels like there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on in this thread and forum.
Believe that if you wish
But you are what i like to call "wrong"
Prove it. I'm not brand loyal. I would however, like to see something close to verifiable with respect to the claims put forth. Any thing less is just bro-science.
One place where hard data can be found is the Precision Rifle Blog, which tabulates equipment used by competitors in the Precision Rifle Series matches. These competitors require their equipment to work, the same way, every time, and, thus, are a far more reliable indicator of what scopes work and what scopes fail than are hunters who may fire five shots a year and then boast about "three of them touching" at 100 yards. A quick look at the list of scopes used in the PRS in 2017 reflects that only 2 top shooters used Leupold scopes, a Mk 6 and Mk 8, representing 7% of the total scopes by brand:
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/03/03/long-range-scopes-pros-use/
Lots of stats tossed out, i.e. 50% failure rate, 90% failure rate, 20x more failures compared to x brand... yet no details offered up concerning sources for data or testing methodology that could be reproduced. Feels like there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on in this thread and forum.
Believe that if you wish
But you are what i like to call "wrong"
Prove it. I'm not brand loyal. I would however, like to see something close to verifiable with respect to the claims put forth. Any thing less is just bro-science.
One place where hard data can be found is the Precision Rifle Blog, which tabulates equipment used by competitors in the Precision Rifle Series matches. These competitors require their equipment to work, the same way, every time, and, thus, are a far more reliable indicator of what scopes work and what scopes fail than are hunters who may fire five shots a year and then boast about "three of them touching" at 100 yards. A quick look at the list of scopes used in the PRS in 2017 reflects that only 2 top shooters used Leupold scopes, a Mk 6 and Mk 8, representing 7% of the total scopes by brand:
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/03/03/long-range-scopes-pros-use/ Huh, that shows Vortex as #1 among top competitors yet I've repeatedly seen supposed experts here say Vortex are Junk and won't track/hold zero. Just one more reason why I place precious f*cking little value on what is said here. When one of you high rollin "experts" starts tearing scopes apart and identifying design, construction and materials flaws I might start placing some faith in it. Until then I think I'll stick with my own experience, which is considerable.
Thanks for sharing. According to the survey, Leupold stock looks to be increasing year-over-year and now only two basis points below S&B. I was surprised to see the strong showing Vortex had.
Lots of stats tossed out, i.e. 50% failure rate, 90% failure rate, 20x more failures compared to x brand... yet no details offered up concerning sources for data or testing methodology that could be reproduced. Feels like there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on in this thread and forum.
Believe that if you wish
But you are what i like to call "wrong"
Prove it. I'm not brand loyal. I would however, like to see something close to verifiable with respect to the claims put forth. Any thing less is just bro-science.
One place where hard data can be found is the Precision Rifle Blog, which tabulates equipment used by competitors in the Precision Rifle Series matches. These competitors require their equipment to work, the same way, every time, and, thus, are a far more reliable indicator of what scopes work and what scopes fail than are hunters who may fire five shots a year and then boast about "three of them touching" at 100 yards. A quick look at the list of scopes used in the PRS in 2017 reflects that only 2 top shooters used Leupold scopes, a Mk 6 and Mk 8, representing 7% of the total scopes by brand:
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/03/03/long-range-scopes-pros-use/How does sponsorship factor into this?
Thanks for sharing. According to the survey, Leupold stock looks to be increasing year-over-year and now only two basis points below S&B. I was surprised to see the strong showing Vortex had.
I'm not surprised about Vortex. In my part of Canada Vortex Optics are quite popular.
How does sponsorship factor into this?
Very strongly, in terms of what general competitors in local PRS-affiliated club matches, and in the championship series matches throughout the year use, based on my experience shooting club matches, and RO-ing club matches and championship series matches both. Nevertheless, the actual championship finale is comprised of very good shooters, and it is unlikely you'll see someone in the finale regularly if their equipment is unreliable.
This prompts questions: Sponsored shooter running heavily discounted or freebie merchandise that is replaced frequently, likely on a 24- to 26-caliber rifle: Do they run that individual scope for several seasons? Do they run it even one whole season? Do you think their match gun is also their practice gun? What does a 'statistic' that you know nothing about really tell you in this context?
That's too bad. I haven't bought a Leupold in years and sold all the ones I had and replaced them with better options......not because of any quality issues, just because they really fell behind the curve feature/cost-wise IMO. Their wire reticles didn't work for me in low light like other glass-etched options and their reticle and/or turret designs were outdated compared to similar/lower priced options like Bushnell, Super Sniper, Vortex and even Weaver....
I did recently purchase a Redfield 2-7x Accu-range to use on a Ruger M77/44 as a low-cost option with a nice reticle design for a brush gun but that's probably as close as I'll come to buying another Leupold again unless they start doing a major overhaul.
Lots of stats tossed out, i.e. 50% failure rate, 90% failure rate, 20x more failures compared to x brand... yet no details offered up concerning sources for data or testing methodology that could be reproduced. Feels like there's a good amount of confirmation bias going on in this thread and forum.
Believe that if you wish
But you are what i like to call "wrong"
Prove it. I'm not brand loyal. I would however, like to see something close to verifiable with respect to the claims put forth. Any thing less is just bro-science.
One place where hard data can be found is the Precision Rifle Blog, which tabulates equipment used by competitors in the Precision Rifle Series matches. These competitors require their equipment to work, the same way, every time, and, thus, are a far more reliable indicator of what scopes work and what scopes fail than are hunters who may fire five shots a year and then boast about "three of them touching" at 100 yards. A quick look at the list of scopes used in the PRS in 2017 reflects that only 2 top shooters used Leupold scopes, a Mk 6 and Mk 8, representing 7% of the total scopes by brand:
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/03/03/long-range-scopes-pros-use/ Huh, that shows Vortex as #1 among top competitors yet I've repeatedly seen supposed experts here say Vortex are Junk and won't track/hold zero. Just one more reason why I place precious f*cking little value on what is said here. When one of you high rollin "experts" starts tearing scopes apart and identifying design, construction and materials flaws I might start placing some faith in it. Until then I think I'll stick with my own experience, which is considerable.
The competitors are using Voretx Razor Gen 2 series scopes costing ~$2500 bucks, not $99 Crossfires. Big difference.
Thanks for the clarification but I haven't noticed any Vortex on Formidilosus' list of scopes that can be depended on to work correctly.
Thanks for the clarification but I haven't noticed any Vortex on Formidilosus' list of scopes that can be depended on to work correctly.
They must be out of the loop and didn't see it on the campfire.
Think how good they could be if they only knew.
Thanks for the clarification but I haven't noticed any Vortex on Formidilosus' list of scopes that can be depended on to work correctly.
He has listed one of the Gen II scopes. Look around.
Thanks for the clarification but I haven't noticed any Vortex on Formidilosus' list of scopes that can be depended on to work correctly.
He has listed one of the Gen II scopes. Look around.
I can buy Vortex optics dirt cheap with my industry pricing discount yet I haven't bought any and won't. Don't like the big ugly things and know too many people that have had trouble with them.
Is this a liberal attack on a right leaning company??😀
Yep! I sure don't trust Leupold for dialing use, whether new or old (except maybe the Mark 4 Fixed Powers) - this 6-18 was on a point and shoot prairie dog rifle.
Your [bleep] stupider than I thought if you trust the Mark 4 for dialing
Trystan
Why don't you regale us regarding your experience with Mark 4 fixed power failures?
I won't hold me breath.
OP - received scope back from Leupold on Friday. Reticle cant is fixed, scope looks perfect now. I will get it mounted up but it will be a few days until I shoot it as it is way too cold for range work right now!
Let us know. I’m curious of what you’ll find