Is Leupold losing a chunk of the market when it comes to scopes north of 8 or 9 hundred bucks? Is the internet to blame? I know I have slowly gravitated away from Leupold whenever a replacement scope or a new rig scope is needed. It started with a Swarovski, then I added Zeiss and today I bought a Nightforce. I still have Leupolds on rifles but those rifles do not see a lot of use. My very first scope was a Redfield Widefield that I put on a .30-06 in 1975. I thought that scope was THE bomb until I bought Leupolds.

Not much competition back then!

A hard earned good reputation seems to be slipping away and I don't really know if its deserved. Come backs are a tough road.

It seems to me like they want to be more like Bushnell caliber than European alpha glass with the latest smattering of low price scopes and not caring about QC issues with the higher dollar ones. I have one of the new freedoms and the glass is pretty good. There are just so many stories of them not tracking well, canted reticles, etc that I'm scared to trust a higher dollar one. I also had a VX6-HD that had very poor low light performance, maybe it was a dud.

They're a $100M/yr company. I doubt they give a crap about the 24HCF's opinion of them. Just a guess.

I respectfully disagree. I think the guys who are on the sales level care completely about the opinion of the forum folks as these are their bread and butter clients. Perhaps the number crunchers at the top are too blind to "get it".

Once confidence and interest in a brand starts to slowly diminish it is very difficult to rebuild.

I know from speaking with guys on the sales side and the customer service folks at Leupold that the forums are read and issues are taken seriously.

IMO, Leupold had a long period of coasting along as they were the "go to" for many people. Then about 10 years ago or so there was a change in the optics landscape with many new players, which generated serious competition and MANY new choices. I think it took a couple of years for Leupold to react to this change and in the past 3-5 years they have been doing great things as far as product line upgrades and changes.
Again, IMO, they are back to being excited about what they do and want to once again be the "go to" brand.

I wouldn't overlook them, actually, just the opposite, take a good look at what they've been doing and do so with an open mind.

Just my $.02

Here is my $0.02:

They have tried to meet so many price points and have a line of scopes for everything. I seriously have to wonder why there would be a need for both a VX5 and a VX6 line. I don’t get it! Seems like a company could streamline offerings, up the quality and lower the price. What I see Tract and SWFA attempting to do.

If I’m not mistaken, prior to the release of the VX Freedom scopes their lines of hunting variable scopes consisted of:

Rifleman
VX1
VX2
VX3
VX5
VX6
VXR
I may have missed some??

Plus all of their Mark 1-AR, Mark 4, 5 and 8. I have to think they have sacrificed quality for offerings. And I’m not necessarily a Leupold hater. Have a FX2 4x and a VX1 2-7x33.

To be fair, streamlining is what they are doing with the VX-Freedom. No more RIfleman, VX-1, or VX-2. Now it's just VX-Freedom, VX-3i, VX-5HD, and VX-6HD. Plus the Mark models.

Leupolds problem is simple:

They lost credibility during a time when a hunter/shooter could EASILY find a more credible product.

For the first time since I became a serious hunter/shooter, I don't own a single Leupold scope.

It would take quite a bit to get me back as a customer.

I do believe, to a certain degree, they are doing exactly what you proposed.

2 years ago at SHOT Leupold announced the VX-3i to replace the VX-3 line. The VX-3i (i standing for improved rather than illuminated which made no sense to me) was an upgrade to the VX-3 at a reduced price.

This past SHOT Show they announced the Freedom series which basically replaced the VX-1 and VX-2 series. Again, offering improvements at reduced pricing as well as not as many different variations, keeping the offerings cleaner and simpler.

As far as a "need" for both a VX-5 and VX-6 series, it's the same as Swarovski offering Z5 and Z6 series. 5x scopes vs 6x scopes with the 5x scopes being considerably less expensive.

I have no issue with them offering a range of scopes from entry through the VX6 line. They’re a big company, they can pull it off.

I have been very happy with the features of Leupolds such as weight, clarity, relief and so on. I did have one fail, and what I don’t know is whether they have made them more robust. I’ve also noticed they can be finicky to sight in. One click is not always the same. I’d like to see them address that.

I have been using Leupolds for almost 55-60 years. In all that time except for one occasion, I have never had a problem with one of them. The exception was when a jeep ran over a rifle and scope. They replaced it at no charge. About eight or nine years ago I sent three old one in and again they went through them at no charge. I'm a gun nut so I have had many rifles over the years (also a retired gunsmith) so I've had a lot of them. My Daughters and their husbands plus my Granddaughters also have Leupolds. I feel in this day and age many companies forget about service but not Leupold. I think the new affordable 3i line are a great buy. Again. their customer service can't be beat.

Doug have you heard anything from Leupold about replacing there erector system with a new one? I have a good source saying they are working on it.

I think we can insert an American car company in your statement. Being in the business for as long as you have, I believe what you said.

I hear you. Been using them for 40 years but "set and forget" is what keeps Leupold rolling. Do you twist turrets at the range or hunting?

True, and I agree regarding their reduction in the number of lines. While I haven’t tried one of the Freedoms, I can only guess it will help with both sales and quality. I was responding to the question about why they appear to be losing a portion of the market. I still think they could streamline more. I don’t know their costs but I would wager they could drop some VX5s and sell VX6 scopes for not much more than VX5 prices because they wouldn’t have all of the extra inventory and overhead. Just my opinion of course. But with VX5 3-15s for $900ish and VX6 3-18s for $1700ish I think those are almost redundant, except for price obviously.

This.

That change was the war. Leupold suddenly had to face serious competition from European glass makers. I don't think they were used to that or expecting it, and I don't think they've recovered.


Okie John

Mostly at the range for sighting in. But I have used them successfully on a couple of Bucks at long range.

About 4-5 years ago I decided to slowly upgrade my optics across the board and Leupold was the first name that came to mind...then I started reading...hard to make the leap when there are that many negative reviews out there.

I wouldn't overlook them, actually, just the opposite, take a good look at what they've been doing and do so with an open mind.

That's a tough choice for folks to whom a scope purchase represents serious money, considering the potential consequences for failure in the field, and that the only remedy Leupold offers is repair or replacement. A money-back guarantee for failure within even 90 days would stir up some confidence. Promising to repair crap forever or replace it with more crap just prolongs the agony. (As I've mentioned before, my only trouble with Leupolds has been the elusive zero, but other reliable sources have had real problems.)

Doug, do they recognize that there are real, serious issues with their products, or do they dismiss them as "customer issues"?

Well the gained me, for what that's worth(or maybe Weaver lost me, not sure which). I've looked over the "Freedom" and compered it to the VX2, frankly, it's GREAT glass for the money. It is what is going to be sitting on top of the rifles I'm building for my boys...

Doug, I'll be giving you a call after I get the rifles back from McMillan for those.

I'm thinking this would be true for any and all scope makers, no?

Thanks Doug, Your .02 cents is greatly welcomed.

For over thirty years I used Zeiss and a variety of other brands that were supposedly better than Leupold. I used whatever Nikon was selling at the moment as their high end model when I wanted an economical scope. A few years ago I bought my first Leupold scope and have been extremely happy since. I'm now up to 10 or so Leupold rifle scopes and one Gold Ring spotting scope with zero issues, and incredible customer service.

I live in Beaverton, the home of Leupold, and have had a couple opportunities to sit down with Leupold technical guys and have asked about some of the issues I read about on this and other forums. They were able to explain things to me in a way that my non engineering background brain could understand, and I came to realize most of these "issues" are not really issues but perceived issues on the part of some people.

I also have had opportunity over the years to talk with a fair number of people who work at Leupold making the scopes, and I've never heard any of them complain about how the company treats them, and in today's world, that means a great deal to me.

It wasn't until late middle age that I turned to Leupold products, but I am very happy with them. They may not be perfect, and some of their stuff may not be the absolute best in a category, but on average it is good stuff that outperforms the vast majority of those who are using it.

I am still a Leupold fan, but I play in the VX-1 and VX-2 range. I have never had a VX-3 in my life, but I would sure like to.

Yeah, no. They still refuse to accept the truth.

A brand that needs streamlined. Schmidt & Bender! I still don’t understand their line and I am an optics snob. Their line makes my head hurt, I also wonder who on earth is buying their products leupold has tons of options and amazing options. I just can’t trust the mechanical aspect of their scopes. And no it was perceived. The Same gun with a nightforce has held zero for years after repeated dialing. Same scope mark 4 and I was adjusting zero every time at the range. This was also after a trip back to leupold. Like I said ship a video cd of the scope being tested mechanically charge an extra $100 for it.

Not sure how many Leupolds I have, in the high teens. And have used them extensively since the early 70s. Are there better scopes, maybe.
But for the cost, they are a great value.

I feel like part of the deal is that in the last 10-15 years long range target and paper shooting along with long range hunting has become much much more popular. When i was a kid growing up my grandfather and uncles and older cousins all had Leupolds, Weavers or Redfield Wideview scopes. They were all mounted, sighted in and almost never touched again unless the gun was banged or dropped. Nothing against these brands of scopes because i was a huge Leupold fan for many years (until i got my first bad one) but its easy to be a great scope when its mounted and fired 10 shots or so to sight in and never fooled with again other than to fire a few shots a year hunting for 5, 10,15, 20 years or more. Their names were built by hunters who didnt turn dials and weren’t worried about how well they “RTZ”. Now a days there’s tons of people who want to sight a scope in a 100 or 200 yards and then dial out to 500, 600 or 1000 yds and then dial back to zero and back and forth at all different distances. And they expect the scope to do so accurately. I dont think the early Leupold customers were attempting this for the most part for many years and when they did start trying it the scopes didnt do it real well so Leupold was playing catch up to some of the European scopes people were starting to buy. I’m sure there is more to it but i think this a big part of Leupold’s demise in some peoples eyes.

Randall

I have close to 20 Leupold’s. I like them, no problems, good value!

I agree with that statement. In my opinion, the Leupold VX-3i line is a great value, for the money.

the problem is the scopes they sell and market as "tactical scopes" if they are sold with an adjustable turret the scope needs to work with it. this scope isn't cheap, Why is the tracking bad? for that much money leupold should test these. nightforce does, why can't leupold? we are tired of it!! all my leupolds have went down the road. if you set them and forget them they are going to be a good scope, But so is other scopes like bushnell elites.

It is, and I don't expect any of them to offer that. But, if a company's reputation has fallen off, an offer to buy back a defective product for a limited time might help restore it.

To be honest, I have no idea if the stuff we read here about problems with Leupolds (or others) is commonly reported outside our little sphere, so Leupold may not be worried about it at all.

Got my fingers crossed for the ones I have.

Pretty sure that the two var i x II scopes that I sent back 3 times each because of failing erector springs was not a perceived issue. The tech at Leopold said the springs weren't designed to dial that much. I really wasn't dialin g that far, but the scopes failed to return to zero after about 250 rounds. Again, each scope went back 3 times for repair with the same problem. Switched to a ss. Problem solved.

Said it before but here again ..We had both vx11 tear up in Africa ..Warranty not worth a damn over there..Sent back,supposedly fixed but I sold 'em......The vx3 I had was pretty good but would not hold zero...So far zero problems with Zeiss,,Burris or MeOpta..why go back ?

That right there is the magic question! Every single scope I have sent back to them came back with erector rebuilt on the repair explanation and there’s been a bunch.. Keep in mind I was not dialing much with any of those scopes, they either wouldn’t track, hold zero or had CDS that simply didn’t work worth a chit. Everyone on this forum knows that the weak erector/Springs are what have plagued them. If they came out with a statement and explanation of a more robust design to the erector system it would definitely help them. The idea that they are pumping out new model $700 - $1000+ dollar scopes and your led to believe that they have the same crap erector in em that has a reputation for failure doesn’t sit well with me.

I just did a count, sold 13 Leupolds in the past few years. Still have a few but NONE will be used for a hard to get big game tag. Too much invested in a hunt these days to wonder if the scope will fail.

Twice I had failures, once during a coues wt hunt and the other the week before another coues hunt. Over the past decade I have sent back many Leupolds for repairs. Just as another poster said all were erector issues. A few varmint rigs still use a Leupold where it really doesn't matter.

I am helping a friend with his new rifle and a VX-6. First time to range the scope the windage and elevation adjustments didn't match the POI. Will be yanking it off to test on a super accurate BR rifle to see if it is the rifle or the scope. I have a feeling it is the scope.

I wish they would make a fixed 4x scope, 1” tube, with TOP level glass, with click adjustments, and make it stout as hell. Non-tactical design.

Get back to basics, and do them better than anyone.

I have owned a total of one Leupold scope and will not own another one. It is currently sitting at Leupold since June 5th. This is the second trip for it back to the factory. Never again. I'll stay with my Super Chickens.

Not many people want such. Try IOR Valadada,or Kaps, both make an excellent fixed 4X.

I have 4 Leupolds. I like them to set and forget. I trust them and like the view through them. None of them adjust correctly at all when you start moving them though and none of them ever did. The next scope I buy will have a reputation for tracking correctly.

I'm still a Leupold fan, and have 4 of them, but my last scope was a Nightforce SHV.

Competition. Leupold will remain a contender in my book, but competition from numerous optic makers puts the squeeze on the larger, older manufacturers. Innovation --- if you're not getting better, faster than the other guy, then you're getting worse. It's a good time in history to be a buyer in the optics market. Lots of good stuff at reasonably good prices.

Welcome to the Fire.

Most contributors are cordial, but....



DF

Sold all my Leupolds as simply don't have confidence in them.

FOst, what scopes are you using these days?

DF

Although I'm sure they are still quite successful, I think their perceived value has went down. They just haven't kept pace with their competitors. I also think putting the CDS option on the VX2/VX3 lines was a huge mistake. I'm sure it sold a ton of scopes initially but I bet they've seen a ton of warranty work for tracking issues. Then there's all the bashing the Leupold receives after their product didn't track well. I thought the VX2/VX3 were a good set it and forget it scope in the $200-350 range but not at regular prices

I think that the rising popularity of LR shooting caught Leupold napping at the beginning of the last decade and they did not respond to the rising demand for true tracking in a timely manner. IMO that's where they began to lose market.

As far as quality issues go, I'm not sure what to believe. I've used everything from Vari-X IIs to VX-5HD and never had to send anything back for repair, and that includes the five or six of the VX-3i persuasion in the safe right now. The tracking issues have always been sporadic and a bit irritating, but once I sight in I don't mess with them unless I change up loads or something. It WOULD be nice to see true tracking, and I think that if they address that issue effectively and soon, AND offer more useful reticles for different purposes, they'll stay right there on top.

But what do I know...I'm just a guy who shoots and hunts a bit.

Wholeheartedly agree.

I still like them for set-and-forget - uhhhh, once they're finally set.
That said, just this past week another one of my set-and-forgets set sail for the mothership with an erector issue.

John, I agree to a point. Like you, I’ve owned more than a safe full of $1000 dollar Leupold scopes. They’ve all been good to me, so far. But, living in the land of Leupold country and knowing people who’ve retired from Leupold after 25 years of service.

They aren’t the same company after several years of new management have driven towards cost and bottom line margins versus rugged builds. They have nice clear glass, especially on their higher end VX6 lineup that is very nice for hunting horns after you’ve put eyes on animals at a distance with binocs...

I have started buying the Bushnell LRHSi scopes. I’m adding Kenton turrets to mine since I’m a cds user and have never claimed to be worth a schit at twisting knobs...Many, many animals have hit the dirt through my Leupold glass. I’m not bashing on them...It’s sadly the way of the corporate mental midgets who only crunch numbers and don’t think about hard hunting and scope users of today who are dialing yards for LR shooting...I still have confidence in my Leupold variables where I set its zero at 3” high and go kill schit. But for twisting, I would look elsewhere too...JMHO 😎

They are no longer number one and no longer in the 100M range. Another company is now way ahead by that metric...

The two VX-2 3-9s I've fiddled with in the last year both had adjustment issues that worked out with a bit of twirling and settled in finally. One's on my son's ML, so I don't know how it's faired since I got it sighted in. The other is on a .270 Mauser and only has maybe 30 rounds on it, but the rifle was grouping well. The VX-3i 3.5-10 and VX-5 HD 2-10x42 (dual springs) were dialed right in without issue. They're very nice scopes, and if they hold up they'll also be good scopes.

Meanwhile, a Tract Tekoa 3-12x42 (spring type unknown, etched reticle, $400), a Bushnell Trophy XLT 4-12 AO (spring type unknown, $131), a Hawke Endurance 2-7 (single leaf, $100), a Hawke Endurance 3-9 (single leaf, $130), a Hawke Endurance 30mm 8x56 (coil spring, $200), and an SS 6x42 all worked perfectly from the get go. All prices except on the SS were heavily discounted. The Hawkes all have illuminated, etched glass reticles and fine positive clicks. The 8x56, to my eyes, looks especially like a quality piece of kit, though I've not compared it side by side with others for image quality.

Point being, there's really no excuse for any erector problems Leupolds may have. Whatever they've done, it's deliberate and with full knowledge of the results. Possibly, as Doug hinted at, they're quietly taking action to improve things. Don't need anything right now, so I can wait and see.

You've stated that before Sitka. Let's see your source.

Beaver, can't argue with any of that. I really like my LRHS and LRHSi too. Too bad that Leupy has headed that direction.

We bought Lyman's scopes. They were right here where we live and we know the people that own it. Also Lyman made the Supertargetspot which most of us used.

The Weaver was a cheap one that nobody wanted for serious shooting.

Unertl made a good one for target.

Nobody heard of leupold then.

Not hard really... Google is your friend...

https://govtribe.com/vendor/sheltered-wings-inc-middleton-wi-dba-vortex-optics

Size $227M annual revenue / 200 employee(s)

Note that last year their gross sales were on par with a declining Leupold...

Oh, and it was announced at the NRA show last year that they had overtaken Leupold. I doubt Leupold can see their taillights any more...

And that should answer the OP's question... no they are not "slowly" losing their foothold...

Just got the new G&A out of my mailbox. Had a "review" of a VX-Freedom, which the writer used atop a TC Compass in NZ.

He spent a lot of print relating how they keep the costs down, but not a single word on accuracy of the adjustments, not even the dreaded box test, only that he "never had a problem" zeroing it (that would be an improvement over my last two VX-2s). It worked well enough to take a tahr, a stag, and a goat, according to a second article on the Compass.

Thanks for the link. Good to know they've grown so rapidly in spite of the fact that 95% of their products comparatively suck.

its not the internet, its that other companies are building just as good or better rifle scopes while Leupold has largely rested on its laurels.

$100M a year is a small company by today's standards.

Not only that they're comparatively heavy and bulky too. I can buy them at a big discount direct from Vortex but I haven't bought any.

yeah but vortex makes junk too. I tested 2 brand new off the shelf PST 2's and both had right reticle movement with elevation. AKA reticle cant. I might trust leupold actually more than vortex, if I am buying a set it and forget it scope, give me a leupold over a vortex. they maintain high resale value. Vortex changes models often and blows out the old models leaving you with old stuff and terrible resale value.

That is funny... they have built products that are good enough to fool the vast majority of the market. I also know the real numbers on returns and aside from the low end stuff (which is comparable to other brands) they are about as good as any out there. Why would so many Special Forces types use them if they are as you say? And as everyone says there are not that many manufacturers and not that many plants. And their US made stuff has been very very good for them.

And so is 200...

Always something as good or better for less money.

Per wikipedia Leupold was around $160 million in 2010 with 700 employees. Don't know what they are today. But comparing to Sitka deer's source Vortex has $227 million with 200 employees. So the question is, has Leupold grown revenues since 2010 or changed head count and what is the year for the Vortex data? Revenues isn't the bottom line but 500 more employees would seem to indicate higher overhead at Leupold. On the other hand, since Vortex scopes are built overseas, those employees may not be counted, but still a cost. Muddy picture without same year data to look at. Looks like Leupold changed CEOs in 2014.

I prefer Leupold's balance of specs in their scopes with light weight and typically better eye relief. Don't know how Vortex stacks up optically. I've got some VX-III's I've yet to use. I'm not a dialer though. I sight in and the only twirling I do is magnification while hunting or to sight in a new load. I'm not a high end scope user. I like my Weaver Classic V 2.5-7's. Like the Leupold's they have adequate optics, eye relief and light weight. My VX-III's are the 1.75-6 and 2.5-8. I'm not convinced they were worth that much more than the Weaver looking through them, but since I haven't even mounted them, can't really say in actual use. It is a little disconcerting to read all the reports of erector failures but seems like many never encountered the problem either.

resale value? Can't ever recall selling a scope....

I have had a Leupold Vary-X III 2-8 x 36 since the early '90s on a .338WM rifle I use to hunt moose each year, and have never had a problem with it, except as follows: while riding my ATV on a trail during moose season with the rifle sung across my chest, the scope hit the ATV's handle bar and got dented. I checked the rifle's sight at the range to make sure that it was OK, and since there was no change I went back to hunt the remaining of the season, and then shipped the scope to Leupold to have it checked and cleaned, all which was done free of charge. A week later the scope was at my door step, nice and clean inside and out. This little scope has survived a lot of the .338WM ammo I have shot with this rifle

Last year I bought a Leupold VX-R with a #4 reticle and illuminated dot to mount on another .338WM rifle, but I haven't shot this rifle enough to tell if this scope will be as reliable as the old one. The bottomline is that I have a lot of confidence about Leupold scopes for hunting in Alaska where sometimes it can be wet, muddy, and cold.

Leupold is believed to be under 100 right now... Vortex is almost 300.

Employee head count is a different thing and they have been hiring heavily at Vortex for a while now.

What for? The 2 or 3 products they actually assemble here? All of the returned junk? As you well know 95% of their stuff is Chinese now.

Nope, what you know is not even close to fact.

They are building their own AMG scopes in their own factory in Madison... not just assembling, making all the parts and assembling.

I find it funny that you are repeating really stupid, wrong stuff, but keep it up!



All advertising is good advertising...

They are still holding their own here in NZ. The VX5/6 with the lock turrets are very popular.

I personally wouldn't have another, and Ive had a few. Have sent 2 VX3 back with tracking problems and a mate has recently sent a Mk6 back that didn't track vertically. Sure they have a good guarantee but it seems that is just as well. And if you are not in the States return postage to Leupold costs a small fortune. Its just not worth the hassle.

I imagine that I lot of scopes aren't assembled in the US, but a few may be, at least according to this article:
http://www.reloaderaddict.com/best-american-made-scopes-usa-rifle-optic-review/

Sure they are. Making their own glass, erectors, etc........yeah right. Nobody does that except Meopta and a small, small, very few others. Prove me wrong, if I'm so wrong. Everyone knows by now they are a Chinese re-seller for the most part.

Disabusing you of your fantasies is not in the cards for today, sorry.

A mix of various scopes.

Several SWFA SS scopes (1-6x24, 3-9x42, and the fixed 6x)
Bushnell LRHS 3-12x44
Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x32 and 42mm
S&B Stratos and Zeniths Flash Dots 1.5-8x42 / 1.5-6x42
Swarovski Z6i and PH 1.7-10x42 / 1.5-6x42
Leica ERi 2.5-10x42

I have a couple Swao Z3's. Had the parallax changed to 60 yards and use them on rimfires.

FOsteology: Don't mean to highjack the thread, but what's your opinion of the SWFA SS 1-6x24? I've been looking for a 1-6x24 and the SWFA is one I was considering. Thx.

Overall, it's a good scope and has been reliable. I've had several different 1-4/1-6 scopes (Swaro, S&B, Zeiss) and I prefer the Super Chicken. I like the "donut of death", but admittedly it can cover up quite a bit.

I find I'm either at 1x or 6x.
SWFA needs to work on the rheostats as the illumination is not usable in daylight.

Formidilosus has stated the NX8 is far superior to everything out there. I haven't had an opportunity to lay hands on one, but I'd take his word for it.

FOsteology: Thanks. The scope is for a dedicated medium bore hunting rifle, but I'm not sold on first focal plane scopes yet. I was also looking at the Athlon Cronus 1-6x24, which is also a first focal plane scope.

No doubt the Nightforce NX8 would be a great scope, but it's a bit too expensive for me.

Most of the quality 1-6x scopes I've been considering seem to be first focal plane.

The 1-6 SWFA is a great scope, especially at $600 shipped from the Sample List. The only thing that really bothers me about them is they're really wide. As in, the illumination knob hangs out there a long ways, making the scope kind of a pain to get in and out of a saddle scabbard.

prairie_goat: what are your thoughts regarding the first focal plane? I know 1st vs. 2nd plane has been debated to death, but in actual use, have you had any issues?

I prefer first focal plane scopes, and have had no issues in use.

Well, when we poured the foundations for their complex, we were told that they eventually move ALL their optic to US production...I'll believe that when I see it.

Wtf is it with you Alaskans? Is it a pre requisite to be a fuucking azzhole? You stupid fuucks gotta act tough? Fuuck you Art....

From Vortex’s website:


“Nearly every component in the AMG, from the index-matched lenses to smallest screw, is engineered, machined, and assembled in the USA. The only component from outside the USA is the German manufactured reticle. If you're looking for a top-tier long-range precision riflescope, look no further than the Razor HD AMG.”

http://www.vortexoptics.com/category/razor_hd_amg_riflescope

John

There was a time when you could not pretend to carry my jock... though the slobber was proof enough you wanted to.

You have exactly nothing in any category that makes your comment anything other than a jealous bitch comment.

Live with it.

You are clueless about what Vortex is actually doing and prove it every time you touch your key pad. Please show me the first incorrect comment I made. Please do not list Uncle Rico's incorrect comments because I do not have time for that moron.


Now, on your AK period thingy:
There is an old saying that I know did not start here, but I would like to think it did, that says "it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission."

We do not suffer fools well (that is where you come in) and if you stand up waving a flag of any particular flavor of stupidity we will pick up on it two, maybe three, nanoseconds after you hit the send key. For some reason, the truly idiotic (your second call to this thread) will jump right up with an even bigger flag because you realize your target audience of sycophants even dumber than you (hard to believe, but they are there) will be protesting your harsh treatment... and you will be crushed like a pre-teen girl's heart at an ice cream social.

But please, keep it up, I enjoy comedy!

Thank you Sir!

You have proven to have a command of the English language many have failed to grasp!

If I'm going to be carrying the rifle around, it gets a Trijicon Accupoint. Otherwise usually Nightforce. Leupold turns out over-priced scopes and tries to make up for it with dumb bells an whistles, like custom reticles that don't work if you change bullets.

It's not a "set and forget" world any more, and Leupold got left in the dust.

Your posts are proof enough of that statement.

Ten years ago I speculated that if Vortex were to spin up a reputation and then ride it to death and fade away then their lifetime warranty would be worthless (look at Zen-Ray). At that time I felt that it was a real possibility they would do exactly that because they had practically nothing in the way of facilities for production. If they are in fact going to move forward with all production in the USA, then it looks like they intend to stick around for the long haul. I'm still not ready for a Vortex product myself, but if things go the way they appear to be going I will be way more open to the possibility.

Vortex looks like they'll be the player to knock Leupold out if anyone does, but at this point I think Leupold holds their destiny in their own hands. If they fail, "it was nice knowing you." I have owned and still do own lots of Leupold products and don't want the lifetime warranty to become meaningless, but I'm not going to cheer for them just because they're Leupold.

That is all you have?

Ten years ago I speculated that if Vortex were to spin up a reputation and then ride it to death and fade away then their lifetime warranty would be worthless (look at Zen-Ray). At that time I felt that it was a real possibility they would do exactly that because they had practically nothing in the way of facilities for production. If they are in fact going to move forward with all production in the USA, then it looks like they intend to stick around for the long haul. I'm still not ready for a Vortex product myself, but if things go the way they appear to be going I will be way more open to the possibility.

Vortex looks like they'll be the player to knock Leupold out if anyone does, but at this point I think Leupold holds their destiny in their own hands. If they fail, "it was nice knowing you." I have owned and still do own lots of Leupold products and don't want the lifetime warranty to become meaningless, but I'm not going to cheer for them just because they're Leupold.[/quote]



I am not sure what you mean by knock out, but Vortex took a large chunk out of Leupold's market share while growing much faster than any other optics company ever has. Leupold is still number two, but a distant number two.

Didja ever get in a scrap and put some fool on the ground, and then have mercy and let him up only to get your own ass whooped good?

Adjust precisely per stated value...... (Not "wonky")
Hold zero and not drift..
RTZ for previously proven loads when doing range work with known dope from adjustments made.....
Good optic,s....

Not much to ask for a aiming device......

Got a older vx1 3-9x40 on a Kodiak. 45 pro mag ml for 6 yrs.
Have not had issues with it yet.
Only leupold I have left.
If it holds , it holds.
If it goes south, I will send it in and when it comes back it will get sold the next day for 100 dollars
And the money will be put towards a sightron or a swfa.

vortex is an interesting company. The basically gave out tons of free product to all the wanna be PRS ninjas. They did the same with all the gun tubers. They gave out hats and other swag to all the gun counter guys. They have single handily nearly put bushnell out of business. I went to cabelas yesterday, bushnell had 2 scopes in scope rack. both were the engage series. I just read an article saying the prime, nitro,and forge series are going to be china production. bushnell told me korea, the engage scopes I looked at also said korea on them. The fact is vortex stuff is junk for the most part. As a consumer they are not controlling their brand. So 5 years from now your optic that you bought will have terrible resale value. Vortex is all hype and marketing. They sell a lot of product simply because they have a LOT of product in stores. Vortex has some decent stuff, (japan built) but other than that they are simply a marketing company. They do have the AMG but that only comes in a very high power model and I think the scope is around 3 grand.

Vortex sells alot of cheap junk. Every sporting goods store around here carries them but it's all the bottom of the line Crossfire and Diamondback Chinese/Phillipine junk that they're selling and that's what makes up the bulk of Vortex's sales volume. None of those stores are carrying the high end USA or Japanese made scopes.

These reasons and the in house service is important to me.

I recently had to send in a Steiner binocular- they moved the service center from NJ to the Burris factory in Greeley, CO. This is the 3rd Steiner binocular I have owned, with 2 out of 3 failing me. I won't be back.

Conversely, I have 14 Leupold scopes mounted on various rifle and magnum handguns. One failure has presented itself. When I sent the scope in, I got excellent service and a quick turn around.

I am not a turret twister shooting 3 shot "ladder tests" to show my buddies on Facebook, so my demands are nicely met with Leupold. If they are slipping, its in not offering a gloss finish.

And you know this how?

Have you tried to get an AMG scope? When they first came out it took over a year on a waiting list. They are still hard to get. Many of their mid-price-range products are hard to get.

Frankly, you are dead wrong.

Yeah then where are they selling them all ? It sure isn't Basspro, Gander, Dick's, Herb Phillipsons or any of the smaller private gun shops in NY or Pa.. Nor is it to all the guys I know at my gun club or the clubs in neighboring towns. There are many of them who have Vortex scopes but NOT ONE has an AMG . Of course you are always right about everything and everyone else is always wrong. BULLSHYT ! Economy rifles out sell high end rifles by the truckloads. People ain't buying "Alpha" optics to put on their RAR's, Mossberg Patriots and Savage Axis rifles. Period.

Art -
Do you current own any Vortex product that you paid more than 50% of MSRP?

I can get them for 50% of MSRP.

A few of points:

-Leupold was slipping. They are working hard to right the ship and their new products are quite good and very competitive. I am quite impressed with VX-5HD, VX-6HD and Mark-5HD. They rested on their laurels for way too long and got their ass handed to them, primarily by Vortex among others. WIth riflescopes, they need to hash out their low/mid range offerings and they seem to be doing that with VX-Freedom being a consolidation of everything VX-2 and below. VX-3i was a mistake. LRP seems to be one as well. They really need to fuse VX-R and VX-3i into a single mid-range product line. Leupold made an investment into developing very good reticle illumination technology and they need to leverage that better. They also need a coherent binocular/spotter strategy. In general, if I was Leupold, I would re-label everything VX-Freedom into Redfield. Having VX-Freedom under the same name as VX-6HD is brand dilution (Vortex also has that problem).

-Vortex builds AMG 6-24x50 and UH-1 scopes in Wisconsin. I visited them earlier this month and saw it with my own eyes. They are running at full capacity on the AMGs and they are more or less keeping up with demand, but barely. Their new building does have a lot of space, and they fully intend to increase their manufacturing capacity. In general, they seem to be the best managed optics company out there right now and definitely the biggest. That having been said, Sig's entry into this world is a shot across the bow for Vortex, Leupold and everyone else. It is especially damaging to Leupold, since Sig lured a bunch of Leupold employees over. By the way, Sig is setting up a facility to build some scopes in the US as well.

-The way of the future seems to be outsourcing simpler designs to OEM and doing a fair bit of the higher end stuff in house. Asian OEMs have gotten much better in the last decade or two and if you have good control of QC, you can deliver very good product. First it was Japan, then Phillipines and now China is getting better. I am all of a sudden seeing decent mid-range scopes from China. Hawke Frontier 1-6x24, for example, compares very well to anything under $1k. Athlon Ares BTR is a decent precision scope on a budget. We'll see how they hold up and all, but build quality is clearly improving. Some people do QC on-site with OEMs and some do it in house. Vortex checks every Razor product they get from the OEMs and a good portion of the PSTs, though not all. Random checks for everything else.

ILya

Sweet talk Sitka douche!!!! Must be a bitch being a washed up know it all, that has nothing better to do than troll the www flapping your lips about shiit you mightta coulda shoulda done. The clocks ticking and time ain’t on your side and you realize that so might as well bitch and moan and try to make everyone else miserable, kudos???

I e been to Alaska before, wasn’t the least bit impressed, especially by the folks that call it home, teamps, scums, dopers, not the least impressed, seems like most folks that can’t make er down here run to that cesspool to escape from either the law or people as they simply can’t get along in a normal society, you and a handful of others prove this time and again... he’ll its so “great” up there you stupidfuucks can celebrate the highest suicide rate in the USA!!!! Congratulations!!!!

Addendum for the prick of misery, there is nothing or nobody that would crush me like your cum drunk washed up azz at a sausage party..... but you knew that....

I think there are, has been and probably will always be folks using Leupold's and they will be happy with them. They have a long history of delivering gut piles in the hunting field and many like and trust them. Most hunters are shooting under 300 yards and not needing to twist turrets to do it.


I believe the current infatuation with and promotion of long range shooting and producing tiny groups from the bench at long range has led to many desiring scopes with features that Leupold did not offer. I also believe they have the resources to attract a talent pool that can produce a reliable turret twisting light weight scope with good eye relief and good optics. Will they do it, ya got me, but some one will. I just hope I can afford it.


For me for now, I am still a set and forget scope user and for the last 53 years it has worked for me in Alaska when it comes to making gut piles. I am also slowly getting into the heavy scopes on a couple of rifles that allow for the turret twisting. Not sure at my age I want to pack around more weight though.

I get this, if only Leupold turret twisters were failing. Mine is a simple 3.5x10 VXIII, with a BC reticle. It worked correctly for a couple hunting trips and then has failed twice in short order. It is going down the road, as soon as they get off their ass and send it back to me.

Yes.

I have had deep discounts over the years from a number of optics companies.

If you are asking about the Vortex discounts to retail folks, I am not now, nor have I ever worked a sales counter in any gun store. I do have an FFL, but beyond that I am not going to say anything.

So, does this mean the wienie roast is definitely off now?

Well then you don't work in the industry or you would be able to buy Vortex optics for 50% of MSRP directly from Vortex.

Have you ever been correct? Ever?

Cabela's is a huge part of the Vortex story and the local one carries the full range of products. Just saw all of the Razor line there last week.

I'm absolutely 100% correct on that you bloviating azzhole. I work in the industry and can buy Vortex scopes for 50% of MSRP through the industry purchase program. The fact that you obviously don't even know about the industry purchase program speaks volumes.

That doesn't negate the FACT that "Alpha glass" is a small segment of the overall optics market so try again moron.

As I said before vortex gives out product to lots of people. Probably pays off online reviwers too

Sorry to derail the flame war, but what I like about Leupold scopes is how svelte they look on a rifle. They seem to be about the only manufacturer that doesn't use eye pieces the size of your wrist. I realize that the larger eye pieces solve problems but they look out of place especially on light weight rifles. They really need to work on their erectors.

I do know the manufacturers do not appreciate people bragging about their discounts, especially on the internet. And you are still completely wrong.

Just some input from the other side of the counter.....

Our big three in dollar volume are Leupold, Vortex and Nightforce. We do six figures in all three. It’s easy to hit with Nightforce because of cost. The other two are made up with volume.

Vortex has surpassed Leupold in total sales with us. They’re almost double in volume. The return rate for service is also much higher than Leupolds. We see 3-4 Vortex scopes coming back in weekly and most of those are set and forget scopes. The majority of the issues we see are failure to adjust.

Just my two cents....

Thanks for that, Darrik.

BTW, your guys shipped my Howa Mini out really quickly. Nice job! Neat little gun. Kinda hoping the grandson grows out of it quickly so Pappy can play.

Despite all the professed Leupold haters on the 'Fire, if you put a reasonably price Leupold scope on the 'Fire classifieds it'll sell the same day. You damn near have to give a Vortex away on the classifieds.

I’m an old guy with over 60 years of shooting scoped rifles. I have bought and used Leupold scopes for most of those years. I’m also not a knob twister, as I mount a scope, zero it, and forget it. I shoot year round so there is never a need to check zero unless I change bullets or loads for whatever reason and that doesn’t happen very often. Unless they quit making them, I suspect a Leupold scope will be on any rifle I own until the Lastround has gone down range. I like’em!

I am having to raise some scopes to get the eyepiece to clear the bolt handle.

For decades I was only raising scopes until the objective bell cleared the barrel.

Some sporterized welded bolt handles may be completely intolerant of new giant eyepieces.


It may seem like 1.55" diameter is the smallest, but the Leupold VX-2 3-9x33mm Rimfire EFR CDS has a 1.4" diameter eyepiece. That rimfire scope can take centerfire recoil.

I had the older Vari-X version of that scope, it was solid. But it didn't have dick for eye relief or flexible eyebox characteristics at 6x or above.

Haha ya no doubt!!!

Those freedoms are gonna be hard for other companies to compete with and nobody can touch them in the price range.

I bought one to try and was surprised.

Mount scopes for function, not looks. Because the scope looks best mounted low may not be the most comfortable in actual shooting. Typically I like my scopes slightly higher than most guys. Close eyes mount the rifle scope view should be full when you open your eyes. This might mean a higher mounting. Off hand shooting generally does better with higher mounting.

I got 2 of them in April and was shocked at how good and how cheap and how light weight they are.

Did the adjustments on those freedoms adjust better or more accurately than previous Leupold scopes you’ve had? Do you know if the reticles are wire or etched ?

Sitka just soiled his diapers.......

I’m assuming they are wire or something, the adjustments click, about all I can ask for.

See, I don’t begrudge folk for using whatever they want. The only input I debate is the ammunition selection. I don’t give a damn how much you spend on a setup, I know just as many folk who have an ADL and Nikon Prostaff that performs as well as the top dollar hunting rig with one exception. The low dollar fellas expend less mental energy on the hunt for the perfect equipment and concentrate more on hunting game.

Its all crazy. I think there is a lot of super masochism and compulsive disorder in the sporting world.

I don't think the manufacturers give a shyt. Sure never heard that they do and I've worked for one and talked to representatives from many others for years. You want the discounts, get a job in the industry. Anybody that works in the industry gets the industry professionals discount. As per usual, you don't know shyt and are way more knoeledgeable in your own little mind than in reality.

SAS, do you have a sense for return rate on FX3s? Intuitively I’d think it would be more reliable than say the VX2, but things don’t always pan out. I’m looking for something robust that will hold up on my 84M 338 Fed, and hopefully not weigh a ton.

Careful there Uncle Rico...

You work in the industry and have never heard that?

Sure you have...

It ain't much of a secret in the industry and I've never heard anybody say it was supposed to be. It's a simple employee benefit like health insurance and paid holidays, nothing more, nothing less. Don't know why anybody'd want to hide it. Sorry to disappoint you when you're grasping at straws.

I am not involved in the schit storm, but if Vortex is selling at 2x the volume of Leupold, I would expect the return rate to be higher. What I would like to know is the percentage of returns for all of the brands AND break that down to what needed to be fixed.

I'm kind of reminded of E-trade here. E-trade's strategy was to grow at all cost. In the early years, their trade executions were unreliable/often slow, customer service unresponsive and generally a pain to deal with if any hickups encountered. The brokerage ratings never had them leading, but they just kept growing due to low commissions, good marketing and through acquisitions of other brokerages. Of course, back then the internet was really taking off, and any company with the name "E" in it was a darling on Wall Street so no lack of stock price hysteria. Hey, it was ordained to grow, and it did. You can buy a lot of companies and market share with an inflated stock value. Eventually, they became the 1200 lb gorilla in the brokerage business and improved their quality and reliability. Seems to be sort of a parallel here although Vortex's story hasn't played out yet.

I'm curious. Do most customers of scopes return them to the retailer, or do they just go straight to the manufacturer? I would contact the manufacturer unless they were damaged or defective straight out of the box. The other question is, since most of Vortex's scopes are manufactured overseas, are their margins still better even taking into consideration a higher failure rate suggested by your comment? And how good is Vortex on their warranty?

Once again Arthur is yapping about shiit he don’t know about.... yep it’s a huge secret, the 40% military, law enforcement first responder discount that I and thousands of others receive!!!!! Shhhhh! Keep it a secret!!! Lmfao

I'm pretty much on the record as being a Leupold user, in fact about two years ago I went "full circle" and came back to exclusively Leupolds. Then, I had two things happened. I had my a 2.5X8X36 (my favorite Leupold scope) suffer a fall (my fault) so I sent it off for repair which Leupold did no problem, So the scope came back, I put in on a reliable rifle and guess what? it shot patterns. Replaced the scope and guess what? back to sub MOA. So back it went and back it came and I have not checked it and quite frankly, I'm not sure I'll test it anytime soon. Fast forward to yesterday, when I was at the range tuning up a another VX3 (this one a 3.5X10X40) Custom CDX for my Browning Safari 300 Win Mag. It was shooting tight groups (about .66) but 1" high and I wanted it dead on @ 100 on the CDS. So, down I went four clicks/ Where did the group go? 1" down as expected...BUT also 1" left so I shot it again and again 1 down & 1 left to i dialed in a 1" right correction and BINGO, dead on at 100. But guess what, this scope with the Fancy CDS will no be just like the cooking show gadgets, as in "set it and forget it". Its set for 2" high at 100 and I aint dicking with the dials... Same as all my Leupolds, set to zero and forget the dials... There's a lesson there...

Can always count on the optics forum for contention...

Lots of things I really like about Leupolds...mainly the 6x42 but several others. Lightweight, excellent eye relief, decent glass, stuff that together makes a great hunting scope used for killing stuff. Sighting in is a touch and go affair best done by 3 shot groups after each adjustment basing the next adjustment off of the closest 2 in that group. The LRD in a fixed power scope is good once it's sighted in....but like the radio DJ says, don't touch that dial!

I was in the post office about 6 months ago, sending a Leupold scope in, and the guy behind the counter, who I know is a hunter, asked me if it was going in for repair. I told him it was and he said he doesn't see too many Leupolds getting sent in.

He went on to say there was one brand of scope that he noticed was leading the pack in returns for service though. When I asked which brand that he noticed gets sent back most often, the answer was "Vortex"

Vortex

How on earth does a guy at the post office know which brand of scope is being sent in for repair? Any time I send something like a scope through the mail, I make sure the contents of the box can't be identified. Same as when they get shipped to me from the vendor, they're always in a plain brown box.

I just wanna know whether this means the wienie roast is canceled or not....

Probably recognized the vortex repair center address on the package. Maybe he has sent a few back himself.

Mmmm...maybe the guy read the address where the package was going.

Guessing not many Leupolds get sent to the Vortex address.

Weird, eh....

Stranger things have happened, LOL

Yep. Beaverton would likely be a dead-giveaway for Leupold. No idea where a Vortex gets shipped for repair, but he seemed to know.

Yeah, it was probably the Beaverton that gave it away.


Leupold & Stevens.
14400 NW Greenbrier Parkway
Beaverton, OR 97006-5790.



This one would be a head scratchier too. It's likely the Wisconsin part that gives it away.

Vortex Optics
Attn: VIP Warranty
One Vortex Drive
Barneveld, WI 53507

Brain fart on my part. I was gonna ask if you'd ever had one, but then I realized there's a prerequisite.......

Anything can break but my go-to rifles have ghost rears and fiber optic fronts and the scoped ones are fixed power. I like to keep it simple.

At least your projection ability ain't lost. You fugg up and blame someone else, very chick'ish.

I blamed myself for having a brain fart. Pretty post-menopausal of you to say otherwise.

I wouldn’t put a vortex on my gun if it was free.

yep same here

Well, I'm totally convinced now. I'll never own a Vortex either.

You post a ton of really stupid stuff as if it is part of the discussion. And then you get all nasty. What a piece of work...

Several points to consider... Vortex at the low end is selling a bunch of scopes in competition with all the low end sellers. They are likely selling a lot more at that level than any two other manufacturers combined. Return rates at that level are not worth arguing. At least I do not care.

Once you get into the better glass returns are vastly different at every manufacturer. Because the same name is applied to such a huge product spread numbers get skewed.

Vortex did not grow the way it has with bad return rates on high end products. Vortex service is absolutely as good as it gets.

Yet to meet a Vortex that tracked worth a damn. Junk

I believe you, but that implies limited experience, especially at anything other than low level stuff. Care to expound?

I will, 2 brand new pst 2’s with right reticle travel,ie retinal cant.

Okay... I happen to have several models of that scope and have not seen that problem. I can show you several moose that have trouble deciding whether that scope or the 30-06 sucks worse. Which ones did you have the trouble with and how closely did you document the issue?

And how many nanoseconds did it take for Vortex to fully cover the problem?

Leupold just told me that they are running a four, to five week turn around on scopes. That shows me they are loaded with broken scopes. They used to have about half that much turn around time.

you probably will not know about it either. I tested the scopes on a mounting fixture I made and my own tall target. I returned both scopes and bought another nightforce, my hunt was too soon to mess with it.. but both scopes were pretty ,much identical in the problem they showed. Performed same tests with new nightforce no problems

28 years ago i was designing a satellite uplink for during nuke war.
The tech had prototyped a high speed cmos ring counter that was to reset itself on one of the counts.
That reset pulse was 5 nanoseconds wide on the best tektronix scope we could get.

That is the fastest I ever saw anything get done.

I have bought ~ 50 scopes over the last year.
One was a Vortex.......... RZR-1558 Razor HD LH for $700.

That was enough.

A one scope wide pulse.

I’m trying to understand the point this thread has evolved into. I think some dwell in the negative and revel in the downfall of a successful leader. I think its a self esteem issue.

Vortex guy here. Sorry, is that stirring the pot too much?

I'd love another Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20 for a CZ550FS I plan to have (again) eventually, but aside from that, I don't find much of anything else they offer to be appealing. Since my primary interests lie with the precision crowd more-so than the hunting crowd, I have steered more towards their top-tier offerings (Razor Gen2 and AMG), and have had no issues with those that I've tried. In fact, I like the AMG so much that it's on the top of my "must have again" list for when I can swing another (sold it for an S&B, then sold the S&B to cover some bills). For now, my Bushnell LRHS and LRTS will cover my needs just fine. Leupold used to be at the top for the "tactical" crowd, but they've sat on their butt too long and lost a HUGE share of the market to other players that offer a similar (or often better) product for the same (or sometimes less) amount of money. Hard to argue against that!

the bottom line is the longer I am around, the more I see that most of the lower end stuff is just junk. its designed for guys that shoot half a box of shells in their guns every other year. The fact is most people simply don't shoot all that much. And if they do maybe they only doing it with a few guns. I see comments all the time here about stuff that lends me to know full well that guy doesn't shoot very much. The classic thing is over on predator masters, guys talking about how great .22 cal vmax bullets kill. so yeah the 2 coyotes in the last 5 years you shot died ok. whoopi freaking do!

I will not use a chinese scope even if its given to me. I will give it to my son for his air soft.

leupold can't be trusted for tacking. I showed you guys failing youtube videos on leupolds that cost over $2500 and are marketed at "tactical scopes"

leupold will probably be fine as a set it and forget it scope. but then again so will the other various

LOW produced japanese scopes, like the bushnell elite series, tract toric etc

vortex stuff outside of Razor product is junk too, its either china built, or the last 2 PST2's I tested Philippine manufacturer had canted reticles and exhibited right reticle movement with elevation adjustment.


bottom line its your money buy junk or buy decent its your choice. it may depend on your scopes use, Wanna dial it get a a nightforce or SWFA SS. wanna set it and forget it, see above. be also aware some issues are tuff to see in a scope becaue its blamed on the gun, or less common the shooter. That is another myth. It doesn't take a crack bench rest shooter to shoot 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. I could teach my 13 year old daughter to do it in 30 minutes with the right gun and the right rest.

Last year my nephew's 13 year old daughter needed a .308. I looked in my safe and there were five .308's resting there, one of which had a 12 3/4 length of pull. I said to myself, "this rifle is in the wrong place" and sent it to him for her use. He put a scope (I have no idea which one) on it and took her to the range to sight it in. She sat down at the bench and fired her first shot-an inch to the left of the center. She fired a second shot, looked at the target and asked him where it went. He looked and told her, "Its in the same hole!" She fired a third shot which enlargened the hole a bit. My nephew said all three shots would have been covered by a dime. They then asked if he wanted to shoot it and he said no, he didn't need to. If I had been there and been asked to shoot the rifle after her, I would have said, "I don't need to, it shoots as well as it always does," knowing full well that I never got it to shoot that well for me. My nephew told me he did not think he could shoot as well as his daughter did, either. She now regards it as her rifle and doesn't want any one else shooting it.

Of course it IS a Remington short action 700 with a Jewell trigger, a McMillan Edge stock and a Shilen barrel.


I apologize for the off topic response.

Sitka dumbfuuck, am I wrong??? Prove your stupidity once again.....

Stalking is not the sign of a healthy mind... and your obvious jealousy is just creepy.

And again, dummy, tell everyone how vortex wants to keep the leo, first responder, military discount a secret you fuucking idiot....

*** You are ignoring this user ***
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You are not worth it.

I would ignore facts too.... grin

Not saying Vortex won't hold a Zero. The 3 I've owned did not track worth a chit. Self expandatory... Could care less about their warranty.

This, I don’t recall Vortex, NF, Bushnell, Trijicon, Burris, Leupold, USO or any other optics manufacturer that offers industry/mil/Leo/ public service discounts stating that the price was a secret. Hell of the 468 vendors I get my discount through not a 1 has said to keep the price secret that I can recall, just not supposed to buy for others not that anyone ever would........

This seems to be the feelings about almost everyone who’s owned one except Sitka Deer. I’ve owned 7 Vipers and sent 6 down the road. The last one sits on a custom 204 bench gun that doesn’t get shot much.

Vortex hasn’t proven itself to be any better than most other scope manufacturers turning out dope dialing scopes. Failure is failure! I could give a schit whether a scope company is number 1, 2 or 10th highest in sales revenues. It’s not money in my pocket but the other way around...My money is going to buy a scope.

I would expect it to be of the quality I paid for in dollars and continue to work as advertised. I don’t care who’s pumping the Vortex “Pom-poms” on this thread...😎

Every Podunk redneck hunter on the planet wants one because " [bleep] bro if I run it over with my truck Vortex replaces it!" Really? FLMAO

I did not say anything about the 40% discount. The stuff started about the 50% and up discounts. The optics dealers do not want the pro staff, guides (though most are at 40%) and such talking about their discounts and they watch that very carefully. They do not want retail counter people talking about their discounts. if someone is caught buying for others in most cases they are kicked out of the program for life.

Vortex is no different in that regard than Leupold, Nikon, Trijicon or about all others.

40% came out of the post I quoted initially. Vortex discount as you know at least for me actually falls into the range you mentioned in the quote above. I don’t know what rules were sent to other groups but the rules/guidelines posted through my access doesn’t mention anything about disclosing the price/discount. Just mentions the no resale, X number of products max per category annually, shipping cost etc.

Perhaps there are other rules for differnt groups, all I can speak to is the rules posted via my access.

I got my first Nightforce in the mail yesterday. Like ole Jed Clampett says, happier than a itchy pig rubbing against a rail fence. The zero stop clutch mechanics is a sweet system. Wee doggies!

Does anyone know why Nightforce says under no circumstances should turn in mounts be used? I get not using the piece of crap rear windage mount. Tube alignment issues?

Which NF did you end up getting?

Geezus you're so full of shyt I can smell you from here. Quit making shyt up to try to make yourself sound like the all knowing expert you think you are. I get the industry professsionals discount from MANY VENDORS not just optics but firearms, air guns, archery, stocks, you name it. If it's outdoor sporting goods/hunting/shooting related I probably get a discount. NONE have ever said a thing about keeping it a secret. The industry discounts vary from one vendor to another. Vortex just happens to be one that is 50%.

NXS 3.5-15X50 MOAR zero stop illuminated

AND I did not pay retail. BAHAHAHA. Retail is for sucker (Cosmo Kramer)

Leupold still makes a good scope and yes Leupold might have lost a little in sales too but its still the work`n man`s scope, right now probably the best scope out there is Nightforce but they cost a lot more too , in FTR class`s and Bench rest shoot`s most shooters are using Nightforce scopes now,the turret system on a Nightforce is so reliable,and that is one of the reasons Leupold has not done as well. another reason is our military use`s Nightforce scopes alot too and the advertisement showing the bullet hole on/in a nightforce scope used by a American sniper caused by a shot from a enemy sniper proves a lot too about how rugged a Nightforce scope is and that hurts Leupold a lot too .

Look forward to your thoughts.

I used to work behind a gun counter as a p/t job, and this is true.

Sounds dandy!

Now, if you tell me you got 50% off, or even 40% off, I'll be jealous as hell!

Well, I guess this purty much confirms that the horse has left the barn....So, who’s up for sharing 50% off retail for a NF? Anybody, hello! 😎

I’ve owned a lot of different Vortex scopes. The lower end stuff is no different than scopes at a similar price point from Leupold, Burris, Bushnell, etc. Failure rate is high when you start asking the scopes to operate mechanically on a consistent basis. But I have also put thousands of rounds downrange under a couple of PST’s and a Razor (all Gen 1), and all scopes tracked, RTZ, and held zero perfectly. I’m sure some of these higher end Vortex scopes fail, as well, but my particular samples were some of the most reliable scopes I’ve ever owned, among many in my safe that are well-known for reliable mechanical function.

the mounting system is bush league that is why

V Vipers with Kenton LR dial turrets...No, mine were not PST or Razor line...It seems Gen 1’s were built better than the later 2’s.
This thread has gone from a Leupold bash party to a parade of love for Vortex, which doesn’t hold water in either bucket.

Facts are simple and known. Leupold has a failure rate on knob turning higher end scope. But, so does Vortex. This squabble appears to end somewhere in the middle...As you pointed out; Both companies, as well as others, selling boxes in the low to mid range category have basically suck scopes...Who sucks more? I really don’t care, unless I own a scope that has a problem.

You haven’t had issues with your Vortex higher end scopes. But you have with Leupold’s. There are others here who are in reverse of what you’ve experienced...This thread doesn’t need a Form test to determine rugged repeatability of either Vortex or Leupold, he’s already made his experiences known. Both mfgs have failed before his eyes. It just depends as it always does and will, on what each person has experienced for himself. 😎

I think Leupold is rapidly losing market share. They have been for the last 10 years or so.

What is funny is you do hear online of lots of people having issues with their vortex stuff. Some how it never ends up in a huge complain fest though. Some how vortex manages the complaints and no one gets too bent out of shape, figuring out why that is should be the top priority of leupold. Maybe leupold should pull a black and decker and start a dewalt. Have higher end stuff under a different label.
It may just be that vortex is a newer brand and more people are too afraid the product they just bought sucks.

I wish!!

have 2 of those, best groups 2 3/4" at 800 yards, sub half MOA at 1000 yards. you should be happy with it. I think that is one of the problems with the whole FFP vs SFP, while that NF scope is pretty darn big, a lot of guys seem to think they need the hubble telescope to shoot long range. SFP works awesome in a scope of medium power range. 5-20x 6-24x etc those are for varmint shooting off a bench and load development.

I've worked behind the gun counter at a sporting goods store and have several friends and coworkers who do currently. The discounts I got and they get are from the sporting goods store where they work, not the manufacturers/importers.

Rumor has it that NF discount is pretty close to this range. I mean I get the discount but don’t want to get in trouble with the campfire industry police for confirming the discount amount........

"I can get them for 50% of MSRP."

"Well then you don't work in the industry or you would be able to buy Vortex optics for 50% of MSRP directly from Vortex."

"I'm absolutely 100% correct on that you bloviating azzhole. I work in the industry and can buy Vortex scopes for 50% of MSRP through the industry purchase program. The fact that you obviously don't even know about the industry purchase program speaks volumes."

"I don't think the manufacturers give a shyt. Sure never heard that they do and I've worked for one and talked to representatives from many others for years. You want the discounts, get a job in the industry. Anybody that works in the industry gets the industry professionals discount. As per usual, you don't know shyt and are way more knoeledgeable in your own little mind than in reality."

"Geezus you're so full of shyt I can smell you from here. Quit making shyt up to try to make yourself sound like the all knowing expert you think you are. I get the industry professsionals discount from MANY VENDORS not just optics but firearms, air guns, archery, stocks, you name it. If it's outdoor sporting goods/hunting/shooting related I probably get a discount. NONE have ever said a thing about keeping it a secret. The industry discounts vary from one vendor to another. Vortex just happens to be one that is 50%."



All quotes of yours from this single thread. Aside from the incredibly obvious lies, is part-time past employment at a retail counter at a big box store really "working in the industry?"

And you do not have a clue how the system works leading me to believe even this come-clean post includes lies... laughing!

Yup, and you'll notice that I'm not buying anymore Vortex scopes based on the track record that Form has reported on dozens of Razors and PST's (I'm also not buying anymore Leup's, in fairness). But, those few PST and Razor scopes worked for me for thousands of rounds and a lot of dialing, so I must have gotten a couple of the good ones

We had the option of buying through the store and getting a reasonable discount, or ordering direct from the manufacturer/importer. The discount was better direct from the manufacturer, but we were limited to a certain number of items per year, going that route.

I know exactly how it works you filthy, lieing piece of shyt. I just ordered a stock direct from the manufacturer at a 50 percent discount two weeks ago. It was far from my first purchase through the program. All you have to do is request the industry discount and prove you work for a firearms manufacturer, which I do, and they e-mail you special industry discount order forms. If you weren't hindered by an IQ equivalent to that of a cinnamon bun, you'd stop this nonsense and quit making yourself look like an imbecile, which you are. I said I used to work behind a gun counter you idiot. Used to. So you're wrong again as usual. I'd think you'd be used to it by now.

Cinnamon bun

Somewhere along the line Sitka dummy decided it was ok to be a azzhole to folks... onc again I didn’t order azzholes with my 24 hour campfire, most of us haven’t.... squishing shiitalk from azzholes is a good thing... #making24hourcampfiregreatagain

Oh ya, cinnamon bun, that’s funny shiit!!! Haha

I'm kinda hungry now....

Good point

I wouldn't be so sure. 15 years ago, they didn't care which is what got them into a bit of a bind. Now, they pay attention.

ILya

Just curious why most all of their problems are occuring with later model scopes then? At least that's how it's reported by MD and much of the 'fire.

Agreed.

I receive their discount list every year and their policy clearly states not to discuss prices publicly and that any abuse will result in your removal from the program.

WTF guys, should I get another Leupold or cough up more money for zeiss...?

I’m fixing to buy another Leupold. I like them. I’m gonna put a 3.5 x 10 on another Rock River Varmint. Just the thing for pigs.

Pig pics rule.

I only shoot rimfire and found that a heavily discounted Viper HS 4-16x44 V-plex reticle to be quite the bargain


The lure of no fault warranty has a very strong appeal. Hum that to the tune of, Smuggler's Blues by Glenn Fry.,,

Why would that tell you anything re broken scopes? I could say it tells me they are using the available work force to catch up with new production orders.

Neither one of us would have any basis to say we are right.

I do know that every time I have ordered a new scope from Leupold, I had it before the quoted time. Last one I ordered was on November 12 and they quoted 7 weeks. It arrived a couple days before 4 weeks.

There are so many good scopes out there than appear as good as Leupold and beat the crap out them in price point. Add in the cool factor of SWFA and Vortex and you’ve got a downward trend in sales.

Hmm...I am friends with numerous sales clerks and some sporting good sales managers. Vortex has a particularly generous reward system for them to push their products. Vortex excels in marketing. Optics? Not so much. (Except, maybe some Razors)
SWFA are great mechanically. But, their oversize...and I mean OVERSIZE turrets make them of limited value for people who carry a rifle around in horse scabbards, or tied to heavy packs up mountains. The optics are so-so.

In over 50 years of heavy rifle shooting, I had one Leupold break a reticle (it was an early 1980s variable scope they marketed for long range shooting). This was way before the long range hunting craze had started. I was shooting a .300 Wildcat. I returned it and spoke with their service manager. He was very apologetic and quickly repaired/returned it. He personally guaranteed no .300 would destroy it. But, I had a friend who was friends with the new distributor of an obscure German scope at the time called Schmidt and Bender that was trying to make inroads into the USA rifle scope market. I got a hellacious deal on two S&B scopes and I sold that Leupold.

Yes, I still have other Leupolds. I now consider them my stepchildren. For hunting, the old Zeiss Diavari and S&B are my most trusted favorites. I consider Swaros to be "fragile." I view the newer Zeiss as recovering from a deep hole they dug some years ago. I stayed away from Kahles and took the plunge for Nightforce in a long range target rifle.

Vortex? Smoke and Mirrors!

There is no cool factor with Vortex. It's a damn dumb name for a scope. Do people even know what a vortex is? This is a vortex.

I've mentioned this before somplace here, but the owner of my LGS told me that he's selling more Hawkes than anything else now, and not the upper lines, but rather Vantage-type stuff. Says guys buy one, then come back for more. Sounds like price is the initial hook; disposable income here's not what it is in the city. No issues with them so far.

He was totally unaware of any Leupold drama like we here about here. Same goes for the blah blah blah crowd (my wife's description) at the range. Lotta cheap scopes show up there, but also a lot of Leupolds. I've seen one Trijicon and one Swaro, IIRC.

I'm running a free VX-5 HD on my primary hunting rifle now. Have a couple 2-series 3-9s on other stuff, but doubt I'll pay full ticket for any more just yet. None of what I do is "mission critical" so the most I have to lose with a failure is a deer, and likely not a big deer, so I don't worry much about my scopes failing, and none, from any company, have so far. A couple of red-dots have crapped though, pretty much out of the box in both cases. A Vortex was replaced promptly. Getting the Bushnell replaced was a nightmare; two new replacements also crapped right off, so I took a Trophy scope as a replacement instead. Those have never been a problem for me.

Blah blah blah crowd. Now that is funny and soon to be a classic for sure! At my range it seems like Nightforce rules mainly because of all the high end long range rifles they sit on.

My Leupolds are fine for the hunting I do!

Pappy,

This place is populated with more than a few Lemmings who jump over the cliff mumbling-regurgitating is perhaps more accurate-the same old Leupold trash talk. Most of them have yet to shoot a Deer past 150.

No doubt there is a place for the high end gear. However it is a place most of them never visit.

That being said, when the right Nightforce shows itself at the right price I’m going to try one myself. But if the rifle I decide to hunt with is wearing a Leopold, I’m not going to be looking for an excuse.

More and more Hawke is sold every month compared to the prior month. It's funny as the guys who buy them always seem pleasantly surprised as to how nice they are. Hawke has started adding quality FFP scopes to their line up and I think you'll see more and more of their scopes in the field in 2019

The perception has sure changed on this board. Years ago, anyone who even mentioned liking some other type scope was pretty much ridiculed. Now it seems to have done a 180 and everyone schits on Leupold.

I don’t shoot long range and I view a scope more as an aiming device that a fine optical instrument. If it resolves well enough to allow one to shoot a deer in just about any situation 30 minutes after daylight, then that is good enough for me. And pretty much any multicoated scope will do that these days. I don’t spin turrets, so if it holds a zero once it is set, that is good enough for me. I like lightweight, so one inch tubes and 2x7s seem about perfect for me. Eye relief is a concern.

So, with those factors considered, Leupold is still one of the best and most economical options out there. But the problem for them is tha a lot of people do spinturrets and they shoot long range so optical resolution is paramount and they don’t mind a lot of weight and so on and so forth. And in that market, the perception of Leupold has taken a big hit. I kind of doubt that they can recover as long as the long range thing keeps up.

I originally bought a Hawke, trying to think outside the box of "standard" manufacturers. The first one was bad, but the one that I have now, seems to be a good scope. It is built heavily and the glass is plenty good for what I do. Another one that is going to see more interest, is Athlon. I have a Midas Tac that is a pretty darn good scope.

Does the Vette get me to work faster than the 4Runner? Definitely not. Is the ride more fun? Definitely yes, unless it is snowing. Do I need a Vette? Definitely not and I don’t have the skills to take it places it can go.

This scope talk is much the same.

Just curious; "bad" how? How long did it take to get the replacement, and was it by tbe dealer or Hawke? They do require you to register them, unlike most now.

I have four mounted right now. Price was definitely the hook for me, as all were closeouts from Doug, along with the incredible eye relief. Gonna ride them for a while to see how they shake out before I think about more.

PaulB,
I agree with “around the bowl and down the hole” vortex. LOL! Lots of noobs think they are cool, 😂😂😂
Happy Trails

I bought it from Doug and it was sent back to Hawke. They tested it and confirmed that it was bad. I ended up getting a substantial upgrade, as they were out of that scope at the time. Their customer service is great and the one that I have now I believe is a Sidewinder with bdc. It rides on a 30-06 and I have killed five, or six deer with the rig. Regarding "bad", it would not hold zero, or track right. My first Athlon was also sent back and they confirmed that it, too, would not hold zero. The replacement was tested and so far, is a very nice scope. It has good, clear glass, tracks well and has good, positive clicks, along with capped windage. In both cases, the customer service was fantastic-better than my experience with Leupold as far as turnaround time. I think that as more and more people get used to seeing them, both of these companies are going to do well. Athlon actually has their own test lab at their facility in Kansas. They can simulate recoil equivalent to a 338 Lapua.

Just a sidebar; I have never had a Leupold totally fail. Had one that the power ring stuck due to something loose after a stint on a .300 Weatherby. I sent it back to Leupold and upgraded to CDS turret and it was back in a few weeks. It now rides on a .35 Whelen and still works fine. I for one don’t have the desire to fiddle fugg around with “maybe” scopes. Test drive new ones on an accurate, hard kicking rifle then mount on its final destination. Cheers

Thanks.

No one really publishes a scientific evaluation of the various riflescopes on the market - but after a while certain people figure some things out through experience.
When you can buy an Asian unit that is the functional equivilent of an "American branded" scope for a fraction of the price, "competition" becomes difficult.
At the high end, many people buy Euro glass largely as a status symbol.

Times change. After shooting friends' rifles w/ SWFA and Nightforce glass I quickly learned the magic of LRF, ballistic app and repeatable turrets combined w/ a functional reticle. My main rifle now wears a SWFA 3-9 FFP w/ an MQ reticle and I love the added capability gained.

It replaced a Leupold VX2 3-9 that is now on a RAR .223. The Leupold has performed flawlessly in every possible condition and has held zero pretty well. When I zeroed it on the RAR the clicks were precise and accurate. I am going to replace it w/ SWFA fixed 6 w/ MQ, why guess when you don't have to?


mike r

$529.99-Hawke Sidewinder FFP 4-16x50 -fov- 23--6.5 feet at 100 yards


$639(MSRP) Vortex Viper HS 4-16x50 -fov- 27.4--7.4 feet at 100 yards

The Hawke might as well be a straw ...

I have never had a failure of any type on any of my leupolds. I have owned a pile and had them on everything from a 22 up to a 458 lott. They really give me no reason to look elsewhere. Just my experience. And for the record I have no need for twisting turrets

It's where I start and stop. They've not steered me wrong...EVER. Dropped one of my rifles this summer, landing right on the scope. The POA never budged. Leupold VX-1 2-7.