I am wondering why Vortex seems to have so much love in the optics market ? The company has no experience with optics mfr. and design, but
only to hire it done overseas, and now all in China.

My experience is extensive, and I have always found better choices with other more proven companies.

Might want to read a bit more before posting that. They have a facility in Wisconsin that makes some optics.

95% of anything Vortex is Chinese. Always something at least as good or better for the same or less money.

Assembly of a few scopes. Wowsa…

I don’t understand the vortex craze either. A Nikon is a better version of a vortex for the same $$$ and when you get into their “high end” stuff it makes Nightforce look light weight. I’ve always seemed to find better options.

Not sure if what you say is actually true. First, they seem to catch their share of crap here for their shortcomings, and I simply don't know about the sources of engineering, design, and manufacturing. IME, Asian makers, and not just Japanese ones, can make good stuff when they want to, maybe not Zeiss-good yet, but certainly serviceable, as shown with Burris and Hawke scopes I've had.

I have two of the Sparc 2 red dots. One has been mounted on several things, including a .357, and a .270, and now sits on a magnum springer airgun. The other crapped after about 10 shots on another .357, and was replaced with a new one, as yet unmounted. Took two weeks, round trip. A good bit of the positive stuff I see here concerns their CS. Have to agree about that.

I also have a Diamondback 10x42 binocular, which is pretty nice to my unsophisticated eyes. The first thing I noticed was the good color rendition. It was a gift, is used often, and serves me very well. Don't need anything better for my use.

No scopes as yet, and I've got pretty definite ideas about any of those I buy in the future, so that won't change.

Poured concrete at their facility today, they are doing another small expansion.

I suspect most of the success with Vortex on the retail side is the payments they make for product placement. A couple of observations, is that at the
Cabela's store in EGF, Vortex has paid for top shelf placement in the optics case. That takes cash to the optics mgr. in each store, or chain.

In Scheel's stores, it seems each store operates more independently. For example, in Fargo, they do sell lots of Swarovski which is fine, but they have placed
Vortex in the same showcase, as that means equality, and what a heresy. I found no Zeiss, or Nikon Monarch HD binoculars for sale, that is unfortunate as they are better choices, in the midrange.
This is too bad, as Fargo is supposed to be the showcase lead store. I am disappointed, as this store should include all top optics mfrs. they offer and educate
their sales force on their optics. I suppose they allow Vortex to come in with commission cash to the lackeys, for a sale. Scheel's is better than that.

If the Scheels stores had much optics knowledge, they would have more Zeiss, Nikon and Leica and Meopta in the showcases.
Bismarck does have Zeiss in the case, and as many should know the Conquest HD is better than any Vortex.

It seems it is pay to play, just like in a grocery store, the companies pay for product placement. I suppose if Vortex is making their binoculars cheap in China, they
have more room with their cheaper labor and cost cutting model.

vortex is garbage and I have zero brand biased FWIW. They are more of a marketing company than an optics company imho.

forgot to mention they also have very aggressive spifs for the counter staff. 1/2 off cards are given out like candy and a points system encouraging them to push products and rewarding them with free products. Or so I'm told

I've never really understood the Vortex hate. I own a lot of different optics, from Leupold to US Optics, Trijicon, Nikon, Burris, Sightron, Vortex, and quite a few others, and I have yet to find any scope in the same price point that I felt was "better". The original Gen 1 Viper PST's were one of the best deals going for a true mil/mil optic, with a very good reticle and plenty of adjustment. Same goes for the Razor HD 4.5-27, probably one of the best scopes you could find at any price (and Made in Japan). One of my favorite scopes is a Vortex Viper PST 1-4x, I have two of them on AR's. Eye relief is perfect, turrets are repeatable, and scope has been bulletproof. Plus, add in their customer service (which is as good as anyone in the business in my experience), and I don't see how you can go wrong with Vortex.

Good point, I believe you are right, Vortex has a cash commission for the counter people, that is something the other optics companies do not do.

So now you know why the dumb [bleep] at the optics counter, who does not hunt, a college kid, who does not know much about binoculars, steers you to Vortex.

Sounds like somebody is trying to do a hatchet job on Vortex to me. I have four of their binoculars, a rangefinder, and three scopes, and they have all performed at or above expectations at what I believe to be a fair price. I have never used their warranty, so I can't comment on that.

I have no skin in the game...and i didn't start the post. I think their optics are low quality and over priced. Their willingness to replace them on a whim kind of speaks to what they have into them ya know.

They are not the only company guilty of this...but they are the worst offender IMHO.

as always YMMV.

You have a good point, so tell us, do you have any experience with other optics ?

No hard on here. I think their stuff is junk. And worse yet resale is terrible because they phase out models and blow them out for cheap ruining resale

My Ruger 22/45 Lite equipped refurb Philippine made Vortex Venom for $110 seems to be fine with my first run out. I can't imagine a Ruger 22/45 beating it. We shall see. Their Razor, bought here used, seems to be fine on my Glock 40 with maybe 100 rounds down.

Which ones, specifically? Is this a generalized blanket statement of all Vortex products, or a certain line?



Leupold and Sightron do the exact same thing, do you hold them in the same regard?

Meat Eater probably...

I have a pair of Diamondbacks and a range finder. Both cheap, both work. Not much else to say.

No boner, if you’re wondering.

Ive owned both Razor binos (10x42) and a razor hd (1-4x24) scope. Didnt pay full price for any of them. Based on what folks actually pay...over priced and under quality. My warranty replacement binos were made in china fwiw. All hat and no saddle

second question...yes but not to the same level that vortex is.

I hate to keep white-knighting Vortex, but I have to assume you're only experience with them involves their Chinese/lower level scopes. Resale on the majority of the Philippines and Japanese manufactured scopes is very good...I know this because I have sold more than a few. As far as phasing out models, every manufacture does this....and prices go down. Its the very reason a Vari-X III is cheaper than a VX3, a Monarch UCC is cheaper than a Monarch 5 (even though I prefer the older UCC scopes), so on and so forth.

I have zero experience with their binoculars, but I would certainly be upset that the replacement was a Chinese product. As far as the Razor scopes, you are probably the only person I have ever read about who considered their quality subpar. Was it one of their HD hunting scopes or tactical model?

[quote=16bore

No boner, if you’re wondering. [/quote]


Thank you for clarifying, I couldn’t have slept tonight wondering about that.

On that note, Swarovski, Zeiss, and Nightforce all give me a boner, don’t even mention S&B or Kahles... Tangent Theda, forget about it!!!!

I updated the original post...it was a 1-4. The scope wasn't that bad...but for the money I could have done much better had i paid full retail. The binos were no dice...way over priced and they didn't hold up. I sold the replacements on eBay IIRC. I see enough of their stuff on the line though to know its not my jam.

Now you sound like a Know nothing guy working an optics counter trying to sell me something i'm not lookng for. You expressed yourself you don't have to sell me.

I can see where a 1-4x would be underwhelming, especially at Razor prices. In fact, I *personally* can't appreciate the benefits of the extra price on a low powered scope where its really difficult to see the benefits optically. 10+ power scopes? Absolutely.

There are also (or at least there used to be) spiff/free product programs from Burris, Nikon, Pentax and Swarovski. Swaro even did an African hunt as a prize one year.

Uncle Rico...
When are you going to stop pulling numbers out of your ass and trying to pass them off as meaningful? Let's say you were close to half-right (you are not close) that would mean over $30,000,000 in sales. What is Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss, Docktor, Nikon, or any other company doing in annual builds outside China? Outside Asia? In the US?

Go ahead, make another guess. I am sure it will be closer than your last guess.

No, making the entire scopes on site in WI. Only the reticles come from outside the US...

Most people want the best binoculars that they can afford and a pair of Chinese made Diamondbacks 10X42 EDs with a free chest harness and glasspack bino case that has been checked by the qc staff in Wisconsin offers a pretty good solution. They would work for most people and are backed up by a super good warranty. However, there are better products. Zeiss presently has the best incentive program. However, Swaro and Leica also have good programs. Leupold and Nikon have programs that are harder to work with but they have good products. I can tell you that a lady named Doreen Fobes in Wisconsin makes the sales people happy wherever they be. There is a bigger problem that is confronting consumers and sales people. Online distribution centers offer higher quality products like Leica Noctavids or Zeiss Harpia Spotting scopes and they never get sent out to the hamlets. We only have a steady supply of vortex and we don't have the ELs, SFs or the HTs that consumers might buy if they had the opportunity to see them. So I don't have the STS 65 that I might be able to sell because we are prompted to bring the customer to the ordering kiosk and order from the online distribution center- the store gets credit but the salesman does not. So while Vortex floods the market with product companies like Zeiss are on the brink of tottering into bankruptcy. Heresy you say but think about how hard they are marketing and how they have streamlined their products, they are struggling. Watch for Sig. They are making better and better products. I can tell that eventually they have the lane to challenge vortex. Swaro has a different lane. I don't think that they worry about anybody.

This, plus marketing, sponsoring matches/prize tables, oh and a 50% Mil/Le discount cant hurt either.
Makes for a lot of fanboys.

I bought, used, and was very pleased with several Vortex scopes for years. I felt the original Viper scopes brought better value to the market at that time, than others costing up to 50% more.

I'm admittedly a "set & forget" scope user, and the scopes worked well for that. They'd actually "set" when I moved the knobs, and then they'd stay there as the years went by. That's 90% of what I ask of a scope, and there's one particularly popular scope brand that can seldom even do that much for me.

As of late, however, Vortex seems to be chasing a different user, one wanting more complex reticles, higher-end glass, and knobs, dials, turrets, etc. Apparently these users don't care if a scope is 24 oz, either. Any Vortex scopes that are trim, light, and uncomplicated, are either in their lowest level product lines, or simply not offered. Accordingly, I'm looking elsewhere these days.

I've not spent any appreciable time with their binocs, but I'd imagine they can spec & source a bionic that will do what 95%+ of hunters/birders want them to do, and at a competitive price. Then again, so can hundreds of other companies. It's astounding how much binocular $300 will buy these days. It's also astounding how much I'd have to spend to travel to areas where glassing with a $300 binocular really starts to fall behind the view from a $1,000 binocular, at least for my eyes.

Value is value. I wanna get the most performance for what I pay. Lots of companies are in that sweet spot. The next consideration is whether the company will be around to take care of the buyer. Vortex probably will. The original Chinese-Alpha bino makers? Not so much.

Apparently the US market is still seeking more choices in optics. Athlon, Maven, Brunton, Vanguard, yadda yadda yadda have entered lately. Bushnell, Burris, Tasco, etc. are still around. It'll be interesting to see who's still standing in another 5 to 10 years.

FC

LOL...


Either you don't know much about NightForce, or I don't know much about Nikon...

I'm not sure what the other mfgs warranty is these days, but the 'we dont care what happened, we'll fix or replace it" warranty from Vortex, is what got me to buy one.

That was several years ago. And, yes I fell and broke the scope, completely my fault. I called Vortex, explained what happened, and they said send it in. 5 days later I get an e-mail saying the scope cant be repaired and 5 days after the e-mail, a new scope arrives, during hunting season.

I only got the one Vortex scope, but I'm satisfied with it.

Well I know my ATACR 4-16x42 is 30oz and a Razor HD Gen II 3-18x50 weighs 46oz. I’ll admit for an extra $1000 you can get the AMG at about 29oz, but at that price range I’d be looking at a Tangent Theta. I’ll take a Nikon monarch over any of vortex “set and forget” models.

I don't own any Vortex optics,but why the hell does it matter?

Vortex' biggest fanboy arrives. Time to face reality SD, you're as clueless on this subject as most others.

I have a few Vortex products. They have been good or better for the price points that I purchased them at. Can't exactly compare a $200 scope or binos to a $2000 one and expect it to be better. Although the warranty on the $200 one is just as good if not better. I think for most people the products they sell are right in the wheelhouse of price and features. FWIW: I just picked up some nice used Razor HD 8x42's. Will see how they stack up - and that resale value thing worked well for me.

Two or three weeks ago, there was a flurry of information and praise for the Athlon Midas 10x42 binocular. It was/is a direct heads up competitor for the Vortex Diamond back in 10x42. I have a Diamondback, like it a lot, and have used it for a couple of years. But I figured that if the Athlon Midas is sharper and clearer, why not try one. So I did. Wasted money. The Athlon is decent. But it falls short of the Diamondback, not only to my eyes, but to those of my wife. She spends quite a bit of time with me on the range, watching bullet strikes from my Sharps, and says that the Vortex Diamondback is the better binocular, giving better clarity. I felt the same way as soon as I looked through them side by side. It's good that we have choices, but Vortex remains a top choice for the money in my book.

I hear a lot of breast beating by people who would appear to be optics snobs.

For the guy who fancies himself a long range spinner of turrets and whom can't live without bullet drop compensating reticles and world class glass I guess Vortex isn't cool enough. For the average Joe who just wants a pretty decent scope on his deer rifle Vortex is ok along with a slew of others, Asian made or not, that fall into the same price category. But, what would the optics forum on the Campfire be without a host of self-actualized optics experts? I'll go with a top-of-the-line Zeiss one day, if someone pony's up the jingle for me to buy it.

Vortex has done an exceptional job of marketing their mostly Asian manufactured products than other companies have marketed thier Asian manufactured products (Leupold, Nikon, Bushnell, Burris, Athlon, etc) My hat's off to them for that. The simple fact that they have a new building doesn't mean their stuff is American made though, which most of it isn't, and neither is anyone else's $200-$500 stuff, including Meopta's new Optika binos. Their tech told me personally that they source as much Asian components as they can for that product, then assemble most of it here. The Fury HD5000, Sig KIlo3000, and Nikon Laserforce are virtual clones of each other, almost guaranteed to come from the exact same assembly line.

At least Vortex took Leupold's model of customer satisfaction seriously, and maybe even exceeded it, which is primarily the reason people buy Vortex stuff in the first place. Adequate products backed by exceptional customer service sells, which is what Athlon is doing as well.

the only US made stuff vortex makes that I am aware of is the AMG scopes. As I look at the retail market on hunting rifles and optics as well. It seems to be somewhat of a dieing market, from what I see. I think fewer and fewer people are willing to spend big money on nice stuff for hunting. Maybe its just the market is played out. Its the reason most of the companies have switched to budget rifles. ruger american, savage axis. remington 783, winchester has a budget rifle, All of these companies prior rifles were wood and blued, something you had pride of ownership with. The pride in ownership of hunting rifles seems to be fading. With it higher end optics, I think vortex put themselves in the right place to capitalize on this. They had the product line for the budget consumer. displaced have been companies who had better products, ie bushnell and their elite series scope, Weaver and their mostly japanese made scopes, to name a couple. All better products than most of vortex line. Savvy marketing, better labeling and spruced up look has been what has gotten vortex to the level they are at.

It happens all the time in business, its pretty frustrating as a business owner myself. Decisions aren't made on who has the best product or does the best work. That works sometimes, but mostly not!. in this case with vortex is no exception. Vortex had a better marketing plan. Athlon seems like another vortex in the making, All the way down to the same crappy asian sources for optics. For me its this, US made, ie nightforce or japanese built optics are all I will use on any guns that I am remotely serious about. If that means buying used so be it. I don't have the time to dink with optics made outside those areas. The phillipene made optics like the PST 2's are close but IMO not there mechanically yet.

I looked at Vortex and Swaro when shopping for a new scope last year, ended up with the Swaro Z5 and I am very happy with it. Now I have a Vortex Bino/RF Fury HD 5000 and so far, I am very happy with it too. With what my wife paid for it on sale (13% off), a Swaro RF/Bino would have run 3 times as much. I can't see the point in spending that when the Vortex works great. The warranty is just cherry on top. The outfitter I go to in Oklahoma broke his spotting scope a few seasons ago. Vortex had him a brand new one on his door step the next day, no questions, no sending the other back to see if they could fix it first. It's hard to argue with that kind of service. Hell, my wifes Acura has a bulge in the side of the tire and the tire company wants us to fill out a bunch of paperwork just to see if they will prorate it. If they did what Vortex did, we would have a new tire on her car by now. And that's a safety issue! I got her new tires instead of waiting for the tire company to give me their answer, but you get the point. Time will tell if I like the Vortex quality but no complaints so far.

I'm not a fanboy by any means as I've owned multiple scope brands over the years, but I think Vortex is great for what they are. They offer great discounts for nearly anyone in the "industry" from underpaid hunting guides to sales reps, law enforcement etc, which I take full advantage of(have done this with multiple optics companies) Are they the best? No. The worst? Also no. A lot of people just don't need high end optics. I personally don't get a hard on for optics in any regard, and I'm guessing a lot of others are like me.

They're good at marketing.

I have an older Vortex Diamondback 2-7 that has been mounted on a slug gun and is now on an AR15. I shoot that out to 325 yards with no issues what so ever at hitting targets. Zero has never shifted and it gets banged around.
I have a Vortex Crossfire 2-7 on a slug gun that gets very little use, but no problems so far.
I have Vortex Diamondback Binos. They are the only binos that I have tried that I can use while wearing glasses and have full vision. Used them the past three years out west elk hunting and can not complain about them.
I have a Vortex range finder that seems to work well.

I also have a Nikon, a few Leupold VX3's, a Nightforce SHV, and SWFA SS 6 that is still in the box (need to buy another rifle).

Will I buy another Vortex? Probably not. I have not had any bad experiences with them, but after using the Nightforce, and spinning that dial. I will save up when I need another scope.

BTW, of the Vortex scopes/Binos I have, only the Crossfire was built in China. Not sure about the Range finder

I have a couple of Vortex Viper PST Gen 1’s. I really like the 4-16. Not so fond of the 6-24. Would I buy a new one? Not sure.

Where is Formidilosus when you need him?

MM

My experience with Vortex products is limited. I've looked through some of the lower end binos and scopes that friends had and was not impressed. However, the Razor line seems to be well made. The glass is good and they seem durable. They are durable enough that the Razor 1-6x is the most popular high end scope in 3-gun competition. In 3-gun, competitors regularly dump their guns in a barrel/dump box while running through the stage. This is a pretty good test of durability and they seem to stand up well under those conditions.

I don’t have any vortex. I try for meopta’s.

Regular joe deer hunter has never heard of meopta.

Vortex is in every gun shop and big box sporting good store. They are shooting minute of dinner plate. Could care less about tiny groups. They just wanna get on their day off and kill a deer. Vortex offers them that a decent price with a feel good warranty.

You guys do realize that Nightforce uses mostly Japanese components for their scopes, right? And their SHV line is completely made in Japan.

Made in Asia, doesn't mean lower quality. It mostly means lower cost because they are better at manufacturing that we are here in the US. Especially precision manufacturing.

There is a big difference in being made in Japan or made in china. The manufacturing story in China is "Just good enough".

So, that means a company doing business there, has to have quality control, or things don't go so well. An example is Zenray.
They could not handle the warranty issues, and there were many, and went tits up.

If your business model is like Vortex, then have them made cheap with cheap labor and charge too much, you just replace, don't fix.

The big problem with Zen-Ray wasn't so much quality control, but that bigger optics companies "discovered:" how well optics could be made in China, especially binoculars. So they did the same thing Zen-Ray did, but with more money behind them.

The same thing happened in Japan around 20 years ago--when at least one European optics company started getting their binoculars made in Japan--and the quality went up, Other Japanese companies eclipsed some Euro-made binoculars enough to force bigger Euro-companies to up their game..

Never owner a Vortex, other than a LRF Doug sold me...which Im happy with for my uses...


Steered clear of their optics because friends whom I trust, still in the business, waved me off of them....

Like many optics companies these days, Vortex sells (not "makes") a wide variety of optics in various price ranges. Some of their riflescopes are perfectly suitable for typical once-a-year deer hunters who might shot up a box of ammo--in two or three years. Others are pretty darn good, though not Nightforce rugged.

Their binoculars and spotting scopes vary considerably as well. Have tested more than one $600 Vortex spotting scope that was so close to $3000+ Euro-scopes that spending the difference in price could only be justified by a very few hunters.

Exactly how much time have you spent in manufacturing environments in China to justify that statement?

I’ve ordered sea cans full of glass from China and the quality of the glass was absolute junk. Quality in China is similar to Bigfoot, I’ve heard people say they’ve seen it but I’ve yet to.

I think their viper and razor spotters are great, The problem I go back to is maintaining brand value to the owner. I don't want to spend $1200 on a razor spotter then 4 years later its blown out for $600 as they phase in a new model. If a guy is thinking I feel like used meopta products are the way to go in lieu of mid to top tier vortex stuff. At least I am not going to lose my shirt when I sell. I don't know how the company addresses this issue, but the message is sent pretty loud and clear that the company isn't paying very much for the optics from their suppliers.

Yes

Uncle Rico,

You sure Meopta is building stuff in the US?

On countries of manufacturing...

Riflescopes:
AMG riflescopes and holographic sights are built in the US. The reticle for the scope comes from Europe. The holographic element for UH-1 comes from UK. Everything else down to raw glass is from US.
Razor riflescopes are made in Japan by LOW, but Gen 2 tactical scopes have some US content as well. All Razor scopes are QC'ed in the US
Golden Eagle riflescopes are made in Japan
Viper PST Gen 2 riflescopes are made int he Phillipines. A significant number of these are QC'ed in the US, but not all.
Diamondback hunting scopes are made int he Phillipines
Diamondback Tactical scopes are made in China (there are very few problems with these, so they must be paying attention to QC).
Strike Eagel scopes are made in China
Crossfire scopes are made in China.

Binoculars:
Razor UHD and Kaibab HD are made in Japan
Everything else is made in China.

Spotting scopes:
All current models are made in China. I have the 65mm Razor and it is better than the previous generation Razor that was made in Japan.

Generally, a few Chinese OEMs are making exceedingly nice spotting scopes and binoculars. You'd be surprised at how many of the Euro brand optics you like are mostly made in China.

Vortex has a very well funded R&D center in the US with a full design and prototyping capability, in addition to the manufacturing they do here. Keep in mind that they also do a fair amount of stuff that is not for civilians.

Probably a good example is Zeiss. With riflescopes, only V8 is made in Germany. Everything else is made either in Japan or China or a bit of both.

I saw mention of Nikon earlier in the thread. All of Nikon's riflescopes are made in the Phillipines. They are about a generation or two behind everyone else in terms of the designs they use. None of their riflescopes are designed by Nikon. These are the same OEM designs that everyone else was using.

ILya

Zeiss v6 says made in germany

Since you have the finger on the pulse, please, do tell how many "Made in USA" scopes Vortex sold last year. How has the wait time on an order for them gone? What is the expected increase in production with the second expansion?

Pointing clueless fingers and making up numbers, again, does not give you the voice of authority you imagine.

You are a long way out of date....

This made me laugh a bit. Doesn't matter where anything is made, the manufacturer (assembler) has to make the item to the specs listed on the print, regardless where it's made. If you take the same print and gave it to a Chinese manufacturer a Japanese one and a US or German one, the item will be the same IF all the specs are to the print. And if they aren't, then the QC has to do their job. As with anything, if it's assembled there doesn't mean all the parts are made there and conversely, just because the item is made in Japan (or Germany or US), there is a very high chance all the components do not come from there. Many components still come from China. Many American made items have components made in China.

Does China pump out a bunch of cheap stuff? Absolutely, because the company having them make it specs it that way. Design it cheap, build it cheap... sell for huge profit!!!!! That's business

And as someone said earlier.... what does it matter? Use what you like; what you can afford. Who cares what others think? Why there's so many choices for everything out there.

The Chinese are for the most part crooked and cut every corner they can get away with.

I’ve no use for Chinese anything...but especially optics

Just took possession of a 8x42 Vortex Razor HD bino. The view is stunning. It seems to be well constructed and comfortable. Says made in China in little letters on the bottom. I don't mind, because I know there was still money made by Americans. Same as if it said made in Austria on the bottom. If there was a made in USA option of comperable quality and price, absolutely I would buy that, but there is not.

I deal with China every single day of the week on parts we buy or quote there from a "partner", as well as we had a plant there for several years, key word, being HAD. We also bought a plant in Europe that was owned by the Chinese..................you want to talk about a nightmare transaction & negotiation.

Quak, you are correct in your analysis..............they tend to take care in producing prototypes or samples & getting approved, then throw the material specs & adherence to process procedures out the window when production starts. And you just cannot inspect quality in after the fact once it get to the US, even with 100% inspection; it just doesn't work.

CJC73 has not a clue as what he's talking about in the real world regarding China.

Having said that, there are a few, a very few plants in China than can & do deliver a high quality part, within certain boundaries, but all in all, those are few & far between.

Manufacturing in Japan & China is like being in 2 different worlds, & yes, I know 1st hand..............I started & ran a US/Japanese manufacturing JV for some time.

People willing to settle for Chinese roulette on what they buy, & buying their own pocketbook strictly on price is what keeps China afloat...............until something changes, they won't either. Trump is 100% right about dealing with China, IMHO/

MM

There is also the theft of intellectual property and process...but thats for a different day.

Ill buy some things that are chinese...a simple hand tool like a shovel for example. But I would NEVER but a chinese optic...you just cannot be sure of what your getting. Great post MontanaMan

I deal with suppliers in China daily. So i do have a clue about the real world

Sorry, but I really don't think that you do.

Dealing with suppliers in not the same as being & having been involved on a production & manufacturing basis.

MM

Ok, you're better than i am and know me and what i do better than i do. and dealing with them means involved in the production and manufacturing process. But what do i know?

Have a nice day

Those Razor's are pretty nice, but you ought to see a Nikon HG for the same $$$$. I do hope you enjoy the Razor's though, and truthfully a guy could have that glass and never miss a thing.

Had some Nikon LX 8X32's back in the day. Seems that there is a certain level of quality that gets reached then improvements are very small and personal. For what I paid for the Razors I am very happy. Had I been paying retail I'd have probably gone with Leica in the ~$1K range.

I have dealt with manufacturing things in China and other asian countries a fair bit.

China is no longer the cheapest place to manufacture stuff, so they are being pushed upmarket by competition. With optics, some OEMs are making significant strides forward, but obviously not all of them. More importantly, from some OEMs I am finally seeing reasonable consistency. We'll see where that takes us.

ILya

Conquest HD5 as I recall also said something about Germany as I recall. They shipped assembled eyepiece and assembled everything else to Germany, attached them together and called it assembled in Germany.

I am not a big fan of HD5 in terms of value, but it was a pretty decent scope with decent QC.

V6 is supposedly made in Japan. I do not know what they do to it in Germany other than packaging it into a ncie box.

ILya

"Assembled in XYZ Country" and "From XYZ Country" have been used quite a bit in recent years to give some (not all) customers the illusion that a certain optic--or other product--is made entirely in that country.

Another European optics company has been marking their binoculars "From XYZ" for around 20 years now--because the only thing their binoculars contain that's put on them in XYZ is the rubber armoring. The rest is made in Japan--or at least that's where the binoculars were made during the first few years of "From XYZ." They may be made in China or somewhere else now.

Yet I keep hearing hunters who own them bragging about their fantastic European binoculars--which is understandable, because as soon as the binoculars started being made in Japan, they became noticeably better optically.

Manufacturing has been a world-wide affair for quite a while now, but many people (especially, apparently, Americans) tend to think that some countries made GREAT optics and others make POOR optics, even though a lot of back-and-forth parts manufacture has been going on for years. The reason? All companies are in business to make money, and if an optics company can buy lenses (or anything else) made to their specifications for less money , they'll do so.

Mentioned on another thread recently that I don't write nearly as much about optics anymore partly because of all this. Not only is it harder to keep track of what's being made where, but too many readers still assume optics manufacturing hasn't changed since 1969. Or maybe 1963, when the last Model 70 Winchesters that were any good--in their opinion--were made.

Lots of companies dealing with Chinese parts, either in totality, small content, assembling parts with some of many parts sourced from China take a lot of liberties in the declaration of source of content labeling....................just sayin'.

MM

I have a crossfire on my AR.

I'm sure its chinese made , it does what I need it to do , at a price point that made me feel pretty good about buying it.

They're in the business to make money, period. Their products don't satisfy most of us here. All of my Vortex scopes came on rifles I bought second hand. Most Vortex scopes serve the function of sitting on the rifle in a closet for 50 weeks of the year to be taken out for one or two weeks of a hunting season. I know I am speculating when I say "most" but that is my take. I also think that most of those I just referenced will give most of those users a lifetime of satisfactory use. If Vortex feels the no-fault warranty and the frequent introduction of new products makes them the most money, that's what they will do. Their bottom line does not have to take in to account the resale value of the scopes owned by a bunch of huckleberries like us. Their high-end stuff does appear to satisfy those users. I can't speak to that as I don't buy Vortex scopes. I do have one of their Razor spotters which I have been very satisfied with. Their rifle scopes are not for me; but, they are exactly what a large number of contributors to the fall human pumpkin patch want.

When it comes to optics that dial formidilosis is someone who hasn't steered me wrong yet! In fact I often look to those with a lot of experience in certain areas for reliable information. I guess some people are actually experts about everything on the planet so have no need to look to anyone for reliable information about anything.

Form has said the Vortex won' t hold up to dialing which I kinda was already leaning toward based on my own personal experience based on small samples.

Last year I worked over a rifle for a younger brother who wanted to extend his hunting ranges to 600 ish yds. For his rifle he went with a Vortex 4-16X42 Because apparently they make some people hard!!! I told him based on my limited experience of what I have seen with 2 Vortex scopes and what Form has said on this forum I expected that his accuracy would be stellar for a season of dialing but eventually the scope would lose precise adjustments. Well fhucq oh dear if the piece of [bleep] didn't start acting up last fall. Like everyone who can't seem to get a first fhuqking clue he immediately thought we had something funky with our handloads or whatever. I again explained that his precision scope while it still was capable of aiming was past its useful precise life expectancy. I proved it to him when I unmounted the piece of [bleep] and put my fixed 10SWFA on! Rifle shoots perfect once again and I let him keep the SWFA!

Vortex scopes work but they don't make me hard! The average hunter doesn't shoot well enouph to see the difference or they blame a "loose adjusting" scope on everything else under the sun! If people didn't always know everything they would probably learn that most useful information that one obtains you can learn from someone who's done a lot more of it than you. People aren't smart because they tought themselves everything under the sun! People are smart because they are capable of learning from others and can match it to there own personal experience! Form has "NEVER"steered me wrong concerning optics!!! A good many others on this forum have solid reliable info as well Mule Deer being one of many.

When people continually post things completely contrary to those who actually have reliable answers I always have to chuckle and wonder if there brilliance is something so powerful that it will continually get in there way of being able of learn many useful things


Trystan

The New Razor 65 and 80 spotters are assembled in the USA

Optics are funny these days. Claim a real high msrp, then have your dealers sell them at 50% off msrp. The markup on these Chinese goods must be unreal.

Re-assembled. They ship it here all assembled, then take it apart and re-align everything.

ILya

If you read and believe everything on this forum you wouldn’t buy any scope. All y’all do is bitch and argue over stupid [bleep] LOL

Carry on....

^^^^^ This.

LOL Guys.

I’ll say this...I hear complaining about 2 brands no matter where I go. One is made in the US...one distributes them from Wi. Take a guess at which 2

Chinese mfg's often play very loose on material specs/QC. Chinese steel is particularly bad.
I've been working in industry since 2000 and in my expiereance the track record on chinese parts is almost universally poor.
The sad thing is when buying replacement parts for American made machinery nowadays the stuff is often Chinese. For example last year I ordered some lift cylinders and misc parts for a Cat D11 and they were made in China.

Nobody ever goes to china for quality...remember that

So at the risk of starting another fire fight, what scope(s) DO hold up to dialing?

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...of-tested-and-proven-scopes#Post14224464

TY

when vortex first got popular I ended up buying 4 of them. as far as using them ,they worked fine. all were very clear if you were at 20x or below. over 20x clarity seemed to fizzle . I was happy until a 4x16 viper power ring got tight,to tight to turn. vortex would not fix it.they offered a fix by giving me the names of 2 companies that made power ring levers. we la few weeks later my other 4x16 viper did the same thing. I called again and talked to another tech,they offered nothing. I sold all 4 vipers .

This.....

I bought 2 Vortex scopes, 2.5x10 PST, 3,000+ rounds sent in for repair, 4x16 PST got a couple podiums at 1000 yard shoots still reliable but took it off recently. The reason is I did not trust it to deliver adjustments at that distance, up until now I shot for group leaving the score on the table.
I replaced it with a 16X SWFA, the other 5 SWFA's I have dial precisely.
For me a rifle scope is an aiming device, 'glass' needs to be good, no requirement for anything high end as long as I can see the target clearly.

Makes me wonder with all the talk on Euro or Japanese high end glass, how do they compare when you look through them with your Walmart glasses, that is the lens not many talk about.

RE: you look through them with your Walmart glasses

+1 excellent point that I for one hadn't really considered.

I must be doing something wrong. I've handled numerous Vortex optics and have yet to get a" hardon" in fact many have left me feeling completely unsatisfied

Opinions on this scope? SWFA SS 2.5-10x32 Ultralight Rifle Scope

I heard that Vortex uses Fram filters in all of their vehicles.

Laughin' here.

But, but, but QC's supposed to not allow that to happen...............some on hear really seem to believe that, too.

Go try to find a set of brake rotors that's not made in China; to your comment above, material is wrong & HT is bad so when they get hot a few time, they warp & then of course, you feel it in the pedal.

MM

easy,,,

I don't get the logic behind this, especially considering all optics will lose value in that time frame. 4 years is a long time in the optics world, with new products being rolled out all the time by all of the major manufacturers. Sometimes, the optics/mechanics don't really change much (if at all), its the addition of new reticles, turret options, illumination, etc. Regardless, they all drop their prices with the addition of new models.

Besides, if the product gives you the performance you require at a price point you're willing to pay, what difference does it make if it drops value in 4 years? I guess it makes sense if you plan on changing optics every few years, but even then, its really all moot. I mean, how much do you consider is an acceptable depreciation? With each new model, quality typically goes up...would you rather the product remain stagnant and not improve just for the sake of long term value? I'm not sure I have ever bought a product where I got years of excellent service out of it, and then got upset because it dropped its value in 4 years. That just comes across as silly to me.

That being said, I rarely (if ever) buy anything new...I always buy used items, where the original purchaser takes the hit on most of the depreciation.

you should get the logic of it. For one thing I never pay retail for my optics. I buy them right in the first place. I have a pair of Swaro EL range binoculars. The warranty is long gone on them for the electronics. They are the most expensive optics I have ever paid for. I have used them for close to 10 years and after all that time I would lose about $500 if I traded them off. swarovski maintains its value because the optics are actually very well made and backed by a good company. The great thing is, when I want to upgrade I have all but $500 to spend on buying something new. which in my case is around $2000, 2 grand is nice to have as a down payment on some new and improved RF binoculars.

vortex does not protect their brand value, The reason is their optics aren't that well made for the most part. I am friends with a guy who took a company public that sold consumer products. He once told me you need at least 6:1 product cost to retail. meaning if a product retails for $600 it can't cost you anymore than $100 to make. He also said ideally its 10:1 or greater. So a $1000 product only costs $100 to manufacturer. I think vortex is on the high end of this ratio and it shows in their precieved long term value.

I Also use nighforce scopes. Spending $1700 on one rifle scope is insane for me and probably would get my wife pissed if she ever knew. The good thing is after several years those scopes are worth within 20% of what I paid for them still. what does that mean? it means I have money to recoup when I want to upgrade. brand value to the consumer means the company gets to sell even more high end optics

I've ended up with 4 Vortex products at various times:

- Razor HD 5-20x50 - At the time it represented a remarkable price/performance option. It still tracks. The HD glass is still fine. The illumination still lights up. Other scopes have better features now. No objections.

- Talon HD 10x42 binoculars. Kind of bulky and heavy, but very good in the center of the image field. Weaker on the edges. Very low eye fatigue for me. No real objections.

- A Razor HD 27-60x85 spotting scope. I've used this one extensively and compared it to all the usual suspects. It's very strong overall, and moreso when price is taken into consideration. I've yet to see a "better" scope spot a hole it couldn't. Hunting-wise deer and elk are huge by comparison and frankly pretty hard to miss. No fatigue problems.

- A viper HST 4-16. It came on a rifle I bought. I didn't like it optically, but it tracked. I sold it.

Based on my experiences so far, I'd be happy to go with them again.

You bring up Swarovski and Nightforce, but for the most part its an apples to oranges comparison. Vortex offers scopes for just about every budget, from sub $100 optics to over $2k. Cheapest Swarovski scope retails somewhere around $700, and I'm not sure Nightforce has a scope under $900. Nighforce & Swarovski appeal to a somewhat select portion of the market, whereas Vortex offers products that run the gamut of potential buyers.

You also mentioned "they aren't that well made for the most part", what do you mean specifically? Are you saying their lower level scopes aren't made that well, or is there some sort of inherent manufacturing flaw across the entire line of optics? As far as the product cost to retail ratio, wouldn't that also apply to other manufacturers as well? Are you suggesting Swarovski and Nighforce follow a different model, or purposely run on lower profit margins? Its almost like you posted that as a sleight to Vortex, except it seems to me like a strong business model.

Regarding your $1700 Nightforce, you're not getting roughly $1400 out of a used one after four years...it ain't happening. Even if it were brand new, still in the box, you'd still be hard pressed to get that amount. I've bought and sold quite a few higher end/tactical scopes, and 20% depreciation is extremely optimistic after 4 years. In fact, I just searched Nightforce scopes on the classifieds here, and didn't find a single one within the first page or so (save one) that was even listed within 20% of new prices. Most were around 25-30%, which is oddly enough, pretty much the same percentage I sold a couple of Viper PST's and an HST for recently. I will say this though, the used market for optics can be extremely fickle and season dependent.

I agree with some of the other posters, there seems to be more than a little bit of snobbery aimed at Vortex. I've owned cheap Chinese scopes, all the way to two US Optics SN3's that were $2400+ each new (and still own one of them). I've also owned Meopta, Nightforce, Zeiss, and a few others, and for me it doesn't matter what the name is as long as it offers the performance I feel I've paid for. Period.

what if I didn't pay $1700 for it? People pay for value and the market isn't stupid. The world knows the toyota tacoma is a very well built vehicle. Vortex just doesn't keep the value. especially their high end stuff. Talk to me about what happened to the gen 1 razor spotting scopes once they released the new ones. your going to be luck to be at 50% of retail on those. as to nighforce I will not buy one unless I am getting no less than 10% off of MAP price, usually its close to 15%, same thing with the rest of optics. Call around is what I say, don't ask me where I am not saying. I have had an NXS 3.5-15 for at least 6 years. If I sold it today I am probably 15% off what I paid for it new. what would I be with a gen 1 razor? uhhh you don't wanna know.

I mentioned earlier that I have one Vortex scope. I've never owned a Nightforce, Ziess, or Swarovski, and from what I've read, I dont think my Vortex is in their league. But, I have had the opportunity to shoot out to 1000 yds. and the optics are good enough to shoot at that distance. I dont hit the target every time, but most of the time. Tracking is the only issue. Dial it up and when you come back down, it's got to be fine tuned, again. It's usually off by 2-4 clicks at 200 yds.

For a set and forget scope, it does a fine job, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Also, as mentioned earlier, they have a very good warranty. What's not to like.

Find me a brand of optic that doesn’t sell in a blister pack that has a worse resale to new cost ratio. Vortex is bottom of the barrel in quality, resale, and value imho. Not that anyone cares but I have no skin in the game and I’m NOT made of money.

I’m not knocking anyone’s gear...I’ve got lots of low cost/quality gear that I use happily. It works for me and my use...vortex is like that for lots of folks. But make no mistake...it’s low quality/value gear

I cannot speak to what they do for other retailers but at Cabela’s, before the Bass Pro purchase, Cabela’s employees could purchase eight Vortex products a year at 60% off of MSRP. Employees received the same deal from Leupold.

Almost all of us work within some kind of budget for our toys; some higher, some lower. For those of us who can't manage the high-end stuff all the time, it's wise to go with something with a good warranty, then hope for the best. Another strategy would be to stop buying new rifles every week and use the cash saved for reliable optics to go on what we have. SWFA has finally started making a lightweight, reliable hunting-style scope at a very reasonable price. Hopefully enough will sell that they may expand that concept into some other magnification ranges.

Yes...the also offer more spiffs than anyone...rewarding sales with free product. I have a friend who works for a retailer and the amount of free vortex crap he gets is unreal...and it goes right to eBay.

I agree 💯. Quality over quantity. I have a young family, 2 car payments, a mortgage etc. I save and buy right...and have alpha optics. Not many mind you...but everything I’ve got is real good...well except my spotter...but I’m working on that.

I see folks buying and selling so often on here that it blows my mind. I’d rather shoot and perhaps more importantly hunt than waste my time, energy and money playing the constant gun lottery.

Talkiing about Vortex' discounts to retailers, their G&O program is a joke as well. If you are able to enroll in thier G&O program (guide/outfitters) they will reward you with 40% off of MSRP pricing discounts. Problem is, they must think guides/outfitters are too stupid to understand basic math. For instance MSRP in Vortex' eyes is a way over inflated price from everyday retail prices. For example, the new Vortex Fury 5000HD can be found everywhere on the planet of $1199. If you look at the Vortex website and look at their MSRP, you will see $1599, which is what they base their generous 40% discount off of. In reality the 40% discount obviously isn't anywhere near that, it is more like 12% off of eveyone in the planet's MSRP. What's bad is Leupold started doing the very same thing. Meopta does not play those BS games, FWIW.

Vortex and Leupold have much in common. One imports low equality optics...one manufactures them. They both have lots of nifty hats, flashlights and pocket knives to give away...

I find it mildly humorous that the best American manufactured scopes come from Meopta and Steiner. One company being Czech and the other being German.

Meopta does have a facility in the US, but they do not currently manufacture any riflescopes there.

They used to assemble MeoPro in the US, but when they moved the facility to Florida (from New York) all riflescope manufacturing went back to Czech. They do some military stuff in Florida and I am sure they will eventually make some consumer products their as well, but not at the moment.

Steiner and Burris are both owned by Beretta. Steiner has its own manufacturing facility in Germany, for the highest stuff they make, but their mid-range products are indeed assembled in the US by Burris. They also have another US facility that does electro-optics.

It is kinda interesting that most of the stuff sold under Burris name is not made by Burris in the US, but a lot of stuff sold under Steiner name is made by Burris in the US. The only Burris product made in the US is the new XTR3, but I am sure that will expand once they are caught up with the demand.

On Leupold and Vortex: both make a wide range of products of varying quality levels. These are two largest companies in terms of sales volume in the sport optics world to the best of my knowledge, with Vortex being the largest by a significant margin. I do not know for sure who else is in the top five, but I imagine that would be Bushnell, Sig and Burris. Sig is definitely growing really fast.

When you make a broad range of stuff, some of it will be good and some will be not so good. Everything is built to a price point. While Leupold has had some really well deserved criticism, I rather like a lot of their newer scopes: VX-5 and up. I am not big on just about anything below that, with the exception of the VX-R that brings some very useful illumination technology down to a reasonable price range, but I do not recommend twisting turrets with these.

ILya

Wow...no idea they moved. Good for them though...NY has a bad place to do business