What would you rather hunt DG with if money was not an issue and why?

Double

A double hands down,a double saved my bacon about a month ago.Buffalo came from behind cover at 15 yards, ph and I both shot to little affect, the left barrel of the double was triggered and spined the bull at 8 yards.The caliber was .450 NE 3 1/4" with 480 gr. bonded Hornadys.
Sometime you need the quick second shot,glad I had what I had.

Once saw a custom 458 win BAR.

5 quick shots !

Ele - double - you get close. Really close.

Everything else - bolt - for when that Sable-of-a-lifetime steps out of the bush beyond 100 yards and your plans change on a dime.

Puddle, good point. An elephant is a very close range, heavy caliber quarry. A scoped bolt rifle is the way to go for everything else. You never know what opportunities might present themselves.

It could be the my doubles accuracy issues and other brands are more accurate.I don't trust my doubles but trust my bolt rifles.

if money is not the problem always a double

I've only hunted buffalo so take this for what it's worth. I think a double is a better choice for elephant where you need quick close range shots. With a double the second shot is much faster because you don't have to work a bolt. For other dangerous game, I think a bolt is generally better: they're usually more accurate and are easy to scope which gives you more effective range.

I am bolt action trash, plain and simple.

I have shot many thousands of rounds through bolt actions. For me to get as proficient with a double it would take a tremendous amount of range time. I shot over 1000 rounds of ammo through my 300 H&H, 375 H&H and 404 Jeffery bolt actions in preparation for my two trips to Africa.

For me, a bolt rifle is preferred for everything except elephant. These days, I’ve settled on a model 70 in .416 Hoffman as my go to dangerous game rifle. I haven’t shot an elephant in quite a long time, but my last bull was taken with a Rigby box lock 470 that I sold a few years later.

The only way I expect to acquire another double is when I book one more elephant hunt, which I’m actively considering. It’ll likely be another 470 when I do.

For buffalo, I think a scoped bolt gun is a better option in most situations.

This.

i grew up as a bowhunter by age 7-8 so i learned how to get very close to animals that most people will never be able to do, that`s why i would feel fine with a double rifle. when i was a kid my hand was about 3 inches or less from a moving elephant`s foot and i never told anyone tell i was adult because my dad would have beat my butt for that.

When I was a kid and went to the zoo I fed an elephant peanuts out of my hand-lol.

Reality check !

How many of these experts have actually killed the big 5 with any rifle ?

none for me but you give me the money and i would show how its done , i am no expert with the big 5 in Africa but i have done well with a bow and arrow on my own. so using a rifle for a blue color worker like myself is no big deal or any other blue collar workers who have hunted all their lives . we would probably always do better than some rich dude brag`n about killing the big 5 with a expensive guide in Africa. that`s the true reality check dude !

Elephant and hippo I use a double

Buffalo I’ve used both

I have hunted with a bunch of PHs, and know several more very well. Have also sat around during evenings drinking beer with up to half-a-dozen very experienced guys, and heard them argue.

But the majority have stated that they much prefer to see a scoped bolt-action come out of the gun case when a new-to-them buffalo hunter shows up, This is because too many have seen bullets misplaced on buffalo due to two factors:

1) Iron sights, which often don't provide an adequate aiming point on buffalo in thick, shadowy cover.

2) A double chambered for a cartridge the hunter can't handle, due to recoil and/or heavy trigger pulls.

And buffalo hunters probably out-number elephant hunters 100-1 in present-day Africa.

Probably more than you.

No doubt, but I don't claim to have the answer.

Do you ?

I agree with what has been said above.I use a bolt without a scope knowing that I am at a disadvantage.I just find it more of a challenge.Aside from leopard I shot all of the game I hunted in Africa without a scope.As for which is more reliable and accurate-a bolt or a double, based on the experience I had with two doubles I would say a bolt.I know where my bolt will put its shots without question.I can't say the same for my doubles.It could be that I do not own a good double-one that is accurate and stays accurate(and regulated).I don't trust what I read about other peoples experience with doubles because they are conflicting and no-one wants to offend the people that sell them who hangout on hunting forums.It also seems that no-one owns a rifle that doesn't shoot well.

This ^

Remember that, despite all our African fantasies, most of us are trained and practiced with scoped bolt action rifles so those are most likely to be effective for most of us for the first shot. Except for elephant, IME bolt actions are the clear choice. And for ele, a large caliber iron sighted bolt is a very close contender. Experience of the rifleman is more important than type of rifle.

A more important issue than the choice of a double or bolt is the question of becoming very adept with iron sights and repetitive effective follow up shots. When the shooting starts at DG things tend to develop very rapidly so follow up shots are very likely to be the deciding factor between an animal on the ground quickly and in view or a tough follow up situation.

over 20 some years in the lower 48 i have hunter only with Ruger #1`s , my handloads or a bow and arrow i really see no reason for more than 1 shot except maybe for elephants . grow up that`s all i ever owned is a single shot so i was taught and learned make the 1st shot count i think PH`s would appreciate that seeing that used #1 pulled out of a case too by a hunter with experience . i plan on or hope to be going in 2023 to Africa and probably will just take a old Ruger #1 in a 30-06 with a small scope on the #1 also mostly because of my poor eyesight at 69 years old.

One shot kills are always our goal. However, with large DG it’s not always feasible, even with very powerful rifles. If the initial shot happens in dense enough concealment, as is the usual case with elephant and often with Cape buffalo, follow up shots are to be expected and something hunters need to be ready for every time.

The PHs I hunt with would not be very pleased if the hunter pulled out a single loader. In fact, in the case of elephant, that hunter can expect that he will usually be followed up by the PH’s 458 Win Mag or 500 NE. The effect of a shot on large DG, even from an adequately powerful DGR, is often not immediately apparent before they disappear from sight, unless a brain or spinal cord shot hits. So the rule is a hunter following up quickly with another shot, if possible, or the PH following up, or both. PG is a somewhat different story, but follow ups til their down to stay is still the rule.

We American hunters are enthralled with one-shot kills and not well conditioned to additional rapid follow ups until the DG animal is down to stay. This takes a lot of practice because we fight how we train.

A hard earned lesson on my part. Although I like my #1s, and they include adequate DG cartridge chamberings, I don’t consider packing them when DG is the target. Just my experience YMMV based on yours.

The two Alaskan moose I killed with my Chapuis double were the most memorable and satisfying moose kills I ever experienced. Just carrying a double while hunting takes you back 100 years.

It doesn’t get more classical than that!!

My choice is a scoped bolt action rifle. On a Cape Buffalo hunt in Tanzania, I carried my Ruger Safari Magnum in 458 Lott. I came up on a couple of nice bulls at 20 yards. I put a 500 grain bullet through the first one's heart and followed up with a second shot also at the heart. The buffalo called out and another bull came to his aid. I put two good hits in him and quickly reloaded while watching them. I put two more in the first bull and he went down.

The second bull however, took two more hits and charged. He was pumped with adrenaline. I quickly loaded four more rounds in my rifle and proceeded to get all four in the charging bull. At that point he went down. I then put "insurance shots" in each while they were down. I'm not sure how things would have played out if I was carrying a double but, It didn't take me long to empty my bolt action on each one of them.
Here's a link to the second buffalo.-

https://i.imgur.com/sO9z8kt.jpg

Neither!

One of my rifles went on a bullet testing hunt in two southern African countries, but I stayed home to run a rapidly growing company.
The chosen hunter was VERY experienced with 1886 big bores and Africa. He took an ele at 20 yards with a frontal brain hot - one shot and down - drt.


This typical 1886 in 45-90 pushed a 450 grain .458 North Fork solid at a mv of 2150 fps through the ele brain and head and on into the body, killing the ele instantly - as in "hit the ground dead". There was no scope and no second shot needed. The same gun and ammo shot through and killed several Cape Buff. No scope or second shot needed.
Also took a BIG Leopard as it ate a farmers goat. That with a Nosler 300 grain PP at 2200 fps MV.

I did finally get to hunt buff in Limpopo Province with my 1895 .405 WCF. DG PH put me just 25 yards behind the chosen buff and I put a 400 grain Woodie "soft" through the heart and out between the front legs (as directed by PH). Buff walked towards cover, so I put a 400 grain Woodie solid through the pelvis and dropped it hard.
Again, no scope needed, just a peep sight and careful planning of the second shot.

with maybe the exception of an elephant, i could just use my old lever Winchester 71 348 . but to be honest a 300 WIN. MAG would work just fine for me in my Ruger #1 for all except a elephant. i have in the past killed a large bull bison , a huge bull elk that scored 376 B.C. and a mountain lion with one shot kills with my bow and arrow so i see no reason i need anything bigger than a 300 Win.mag.. also remember Mr. Bell killed many 100`s 0f elephants with a 7x57 mauser cartridge one shot kills.

Pete please post a pic of any of these critters you killed.

Double rifle is my choice.

Why? You have to get closer, it is a little more difficult with a double, I also like the nostalgia.

Spoken like someone who’s never hunted buffalo.

Bolt action

458Lott?

.460 Wby




.450 Howell



.404 Jeffery



I also have 3-.375 H&H's and a .375 RUM to chose for DG.

I typically find doubles slower than bolt actions.
As I keep fumbling to find the bolt handle on doubles. 😜

Good Lord, man!

Did you have backup??

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-458-lott-a-dedicated-cartridge-for-dangerous-game/

In 2002, Hornady and Ruger teamed up to legitimize Jacque P. Lott’s wildcat cartridge—one that delivers more velocity, energy (and recoil) than the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Jacque Lott was badly mauled by a cape buffalo he had shot with his 458 WinMag. After recovering from his injuries, he set about designing a more potent cartridge that would be more effective on dangerous game - hence the 458 Lott. The early 458 WinMag loads did not live up to the advertised performance due to a combination of African heat and compressed powder in the shorter case. Later, Winchester successfully addressed the problem with improved powders.

T.S.

Hahaha!!!

😁

no and i don`t need to prove anything so don`t believe me that i killed anything heck i don`t even own a rifle . post whatever , some people have seen private pictures of some animals , i have no horn scores in any books either , i might shoot a fawn deer only every 10 years at 50 yards with a borrowed rifle.

that AR 458 is one heck of a rifle , the more i shoot AR`s the more i respect that kind of rifle , if only somehow someone put a wood laminated stock and forearm on a AR ?

How about both

A double if for no other reason than money was no object. I could invest a fortune in a single arm.

For dangerous game up close it would be a double hands down. Anything else and the Bolt gun would be the ticket. Nothing is faster for two shots than the double. Never been to Africa and don't plan to go , too hot and too damned many Africans. Big Bears in cold country would be my choice of dangerous game.

Sometimes two shots, even if well placed, are not enough.

Yes that's the thing, and that's when the PH needs to step in if this is from a double. I was wondering when this intervention is needed when a 4 shot bolt gun is not going to plan. I guess it depends on what the animal is doing and how far away it is.

I've got a video of a cape buff getting 2 shots to the body from a double then 2 to the head from another double as it was charging. The first head shot didn't hit anything useful but the second made it stop in it's tracks with blood fountaining out it's nose. It still took an additional shot to put the animal down off it's feet.

Have never hunted DG but if I were headed to Africa for that purpose it would be a custom 98 Mauser in .404 Jefferey. I'd spend a bunch of cash on cases and components and practice, practice, and practice some more.

doubles are faster when it counts

George, was that what you used to shoot the cow buffalo you were told not to shoot in Zimbabwe? I can’t recall from watching your video. I do recall that your PH was not too happy about your shooting a cow instead of the bull y’all were tracking.

You would be well armed for anything, up to and including elephant. Choose the right 400 grain bullet - soft or solid - for the DG you’re hunting, launch it at 2450-2500 fps, practice plenty with a rifle that fits you well and you’ll bring home the bacon.

The 404 Jeffery and cartridges that duplicate its ballistic performance in reliable DGRs are the best 1-gun DG battery in Southern Africa, IMHO.

I've used both. I used to have a William Evans double made in 1896 that was chambered in 450/400 3 1/4 inch Nitro Express. It was fun to carry and had a butt load of nostalgia on safari but my 375 H&H is a lot more accurate, better for longer shots and a lot easier to shoot a lot. The only source I had for factory shells was Kynoch and they sold them in 5 packs for $55 a pack. I got dies and handloaded them but I could load for my 375 a whole lot cheaper than I could load for the double.

In a fit of extreme idiocy I sold my double. Sure wish I still had it.

Are you the jdollar who once fainted when he saw an elephant up close and had to have his fat foreign PH doctor resuscitate him.

I was wondering if swiftshot was shootaway. I guess the last post confirms my suspicion.

Yep, that’s him. Remember how proud he was when he posted the video of him shooting the cow on AR? IIRC his PH said “come George, finish off the cow you shot”. He was so proud, even though the video clearly captures his PH telling him not to shoot….

I am sure a double is faster when it really counts but i really want to shoot an elephant with my AHR 458 Lott, has a red dot sight and is really fast on the target, since i have been shooting bolt gun's my whole life i can shuck them through pretty fast and it's not as heavy as a big ole double, would be easier to carry all day. I would bend the front trigger on a double trying to pull it again, shot o/u shotgun's with single trigger, would take a lot of time on the range rattling my brain to get over that.

Same here.Looking back on my hunts I now feel differently and prefer my trusted bolt rifle unless my double is shooting as good and the confidence is there.I am just about to send my 450NE off to the states for re-regulation to finally fix it.

if im counting correctly that was 13 shots total. Was your PH with you shooting also?

I quite agree.

I'm currently re-reading John Sharp's book, "Facing Down Fear" and last night I was struck by his assertion that the most important attribute of a DG rifle is that it must fit you perfectly. By fit, he means that when you bring the rifle up to your eye the sights align where you're looking without you having to work at aligning them. Much like a well-fitted shotgun, the DG rifle has to be one you shoot instinctively: you look at your target, you shoulder your weapon, and the sights/barrel(s) line up perfectly with the target. All you have to do then is pull the trigger and the bullet will go where you're looking.

With dangerous game, you have all the time you need to make your first shot, and you should take all of it. If your first shot doesn't kill the animal, the the time available to break what will be the last shot into the charging critter (or the last shot of YOUR life) is going to be measured in tenths of a second. There isn't time to adjust the sight picture. The shot must be instinctive, and that can only happen if your rifle fits you perfectly. So making sure your rifle is a good fit is far more important than what type of action it has.

When I booked my first buffalo hunt back in 2014, I was caught up in the history and romance of old Africa, so naturally I bought a double rifle right away. I got a good deal on a decent 9.3x74R Sabatti and started shooting it right away. The barrels were well-regulated for 100 yards from the bench, but I discovered immediately that the stock did not fit me. Which meant 1) it kicked like a Grand Canyon burro and 2) it was hard to make it shoot accurately from field positions. This would not do for a DG rifle, so I sold it and then went through a series of magazine (bolt) rifles in .458 Win, .375 Ruger, and finally . 375 H&H. The latter was a Kimber Caprivi that fits me perfectly, and that's what I used on both my safaris as well as multiple hunts here in North America.

A PH needs a "stopping rifle", and many PH's prefer a double if they can afford it. There is no question that firing the second barrel on a double is much, much faster than the second shot on a magazine rifle. My PH on both my safaris was John Sharp, and he has used his somewhat famous 470 Rigby double to stop many DG charges, often requiring the second barrel. (He didn't have to stop any charges on my animals, thankfully!) My photo/video guy on my last safari, Rayno Egnar, is also a PH who really, really wants a double rifle for the same reason most PH's do... for that fast followup shot.

Most hunters do not need a double rifle. For one thing, they need to be able to make their first shot on their DG animal count, and a scoped bolt rifle is far better suited to that task than an iron-sighted double. For another thing, most PH's these days will flat-out refuse to let the client/hunter come along when walking up a wounded buffalo, leopard, or lion; partly for liability reasons, but moreso because they don't want a nervous client shooting them.

I coveted that Sabatti, Doc. From the first time I saw it in Texas.

First and foremost i am there to kill, that said, i'd rather track buffalo with my doubles, but wont lie and say i dont have a heavy medium bore with scope handy if a buff of a lifetime is spotted and cant be closed in on at double rifle ranges, i'd put a vital hit on the animall with the bolt gun, then grab a double, hurry over and get it settled asap, carried a 577 and 400 H&H stoked with 400gr a-frames at 2400 fps in Tanzania fall 2020, didnt need the 400 for buff or hippo as both were shot less than 18 yards on the ground.

Did use the scoped bolt 400 H&H on:

Zebra 277 yards
Waterbuck 238 yards
Hartebeest 232 yards
Warthog 166 yards
Leopard 70 yards

Excellent advice and post, Gunner. This almost exactly what Boddington says as well. Basically, if you hunt buffalo with a double, you ostensibly cut your odds by 50% (sic). What 400 H&H do you have?

I am too poor to afford a decent double so low power scoped bolt gun it is for me. I am planning a buff hunt but it is somewhat low on my list so it may be a while.

I did confirm zero on my M70 .375 H&H yesterday on a ground squirrel. That means I am ready.

Doubles speak of tradition, but are seldom the best choice for a hunter in Africa. Many reasons...cost, familiarity, iron sights, black buff against black shaded background, weight, etc.

PS: Now Gunner shooting my old 577 Verney Carron....now that's a different story :-)

Thanks Jorge, that 400 H&H platform came from our old buddy Biebs that posted right under you, he sold me a model 70 classic sporter barreled action in 300 Weatherby, that action made a hell of a lightweight American version of a British stalking rifle, it's a great shooter with Kreiger barrel and everything else bedded, pillared and cross bolted in a beautiful stick of Claro, you two guys have sure sold me some fine rifles, your old pre-64 300 H&H is going with me next Safari.

LOL, Biebs, that 577 Nitro with 26" barrels you sold me is an equal opportunity destroyer with it's 750gr Barnes solids and TSX's at 2076 fps, unreal quick killer of heavy dangerous game, they simply cant take that kind of blow to the vitals, i did bend the head on one of those 750gr Barnes banded solids on the hippo skull, the bullet went in at the triangle, took out over two feet of spine and was found in the pelvic region of the hippo, gotta be near 12 feet of penetration in a 13.5 foot long animal, the PH, Game Scouts and skinning crew were all dumbfounded at that level of destruction and penetration.

I've heard, saw videos and read of dangerous game taking multiple hits from all sorts of rifles and cartridges, i just haven't seen it at the end of my barrels yet ; ]

Thanks for selling me a "Sledge Hammer" of an accurate rifle Sir.

Good to go, Jerry!

I agree with pretty much all of that.

Had a buffalo in Zambia on trip that ran into the thick stuff

I have no doubt of your abilities with a big double, gunner! If I had my druthers, I'd follow your lead... but I'd need a gun-bearer for my second rifle!


Sound advice, I'm afraid.

My first buff, in 2015, was taken at 50 paces, and there was no chance of stalking closer... he was walking in a wide-open field with ankle-deep grass, and the only cover between me and him was a 10-foot mopane sapling about 2" in diameter. The light was fading, about 30 minutes before sundown. As you know, in Africa the light begins to fade much earlier in the afternoon due to the dry-season-long dusty haze, so by 30 minutes prior to sunset it's getting dim. And he was in the shade of the trees we were set up in, as well. My scope, a 1.5-4X Trijicon, has an illuminated triangle at the top of the post, and I can tell you without question that I needed that illuminated aiming point... the black of the post was indiscernible against the black sides of the buff. Because I was able to see exactly where my aiming point was in that lowering light, I was able to put the 300 gr A-frame right through the top of his heart. It literally blew his heart in half, which is why he only ran about 75 yards before he fell and never got up again. Even with a gold bead front sight, I believe it would have been dicey seeing it against the bull's flanks. African light can be very tricky. I'm very glad I had a scoped rifle for that buff.

My second buff, in 2019, was a very different sort of deal. We hunted very hard every day for 8 days without getting a chance at a shootable bull. I already had a respectable 36-incher, and I very much wanted at least 41" this time around. We stalked close enough to several smaller bulls to take a shot, but smaller wasn't in the cards. We finally got onto a group of 4 dugga boys on Day 9, and tracked them for about 2 hours without having a chance at them. One bull was closer to 40", but none of them were huge... still, it was the second-last day of the hunt, and beggars can't be choosers. It got much worse at the end of the stalk... the bulls had crossed a dry river-bed, and the far bank was the boundary of our hunting concession. They had stopped to feed in the lush greenery of the riverbank, but we were 120-130 yards from them, and if they went up and over the top of the bank, we couldn't pursue them further. My PH was feeling positive about the setup, as I had busted a hyena through his shoulders at 200 yards earlier in the morning, and he told me he felt confident I could make the shot if I wanted to. I realized full well that if I didn't kill this bull, I was likely going home to eat tag soup, so even though he wasn't a 41+ incher, I decided to take him. There is no way on earth I would dare that shot with an iron-sighted rifle at that range... but with my scope cranked up to 4X, I had full confidence in taking the shot. So I did, and I killed him with that shot. (I did put 2 more into him as he slowly walked up the bank away from us, but they were insurance shots only... when we opened him up, the first shot had torn his heart in half, the second shot further up and a bit further back took out both lungs, and the final shot broke his pelvis.) Again, this was a shot that would not have been doable with a double gun. No PH would allow it, the risk of creating a disastrous followup on a wounded bull would be too great.

My only bull was in 2018 in Zambia. Hunted hard for 9 days before an opportunity arose.

Had snuck into about 60 yards of 4 bedded bulls. As we were trying to sort everything out, the bulls got up and started walking towards us. They passed by at about 30 yards and a shot finally presented at 40 yards. I am sure I could have made the shot with open sights, but was carrying a 404 Jeffery bolt action with a Leupold 1-6. Do not remember what power the scope was set on. But the the 400g Barnes went right through the heart.

Asked the PH if I should shoot again and he said sure. Shot missed the base of the spine, but ended up somewhere in the guts. Didn't matter as the bull went less than 100 yards and tipped over. That second shot may have been quicker with a double, but had no problems with the bolt.

I am sure I could figure out a double given enough time. But have been using bolt actions for as long as I can remember. First cottontail was with an open sighted bolt action 22 way back in the 70's.

So my choice is to use a bolt action. That is what I am familiar with, and what I will stick with. If money was no issue, I would still use bolt. Just go hunting one heck of a lot more.

A bolt rifle in 375 is very accurate and reliable.For one thing one is not scared to shoot it and the other is the inherent accuracy of the 375 compared to the larger bores.The 416 should work as well.

Kinda reminds me of a hunt some years. I had built a .458 & wanted to take a deer with the rifle. While answered a "call of nature" with the rifle leaning on a bush, the rifle fell. I was a bit worried about the 1-3 scope being "off" after that. Shortly a squirrel came along & faced me on the ground at about 50 yards. I decided that would be a good test for my zero & fired at the critter. Bingo, a "reverse field dressing. Nothing left but the hide. Soon after that I received a very serious "whiplash injury". A NEUROSURGEON told me if I ever wanted to regain a somewhat normal life to forget about shooting such a rifle again.

When I was shooting many fully charged rounds with my Lott and didn't know better I was feeling the effects of whip lash.I was having head aches that would last a week and at one point had difficulty finding the right timing to cross a busy street.

Sounds like you were shooting from the bench. You need to use shooting sticks when target shooting. That will allow your body to recoil with the shot and not absorb the full impact. The 458 Lott is a hard hitter on both ends but like all rifles, when you are shooting at game you don't notice it. - T.S.

I shoot all my rounds offhand.Shooting sticks are for people who are out of shape or out of breath.Nothing matches the art of offhand shooting.

OK Hotshot................. so, you sight/zero your rifle sights shooting offhand?

Offhand and standing on my head-lol

What an idiot……

+1

It wasn't I who was calling for lockdowns and vaccination.I don't support sites that ban free speech either.

This guy was over on AR? what was his handle over there.

Well, well if it isn't the AR African hunting groupie Jorge.

answered.

I think it was "Shootalot". Could be wrong. I haven't been on AR in years. Too many pissing matches constantly underway over there.

T.S.

Sort of like here? He was originally shootaway, then when he made a fool of himself after boasting about shooting a cow buffalo after his PH specifically told him not to shoot, he changed his screen name to something else. Didn’t work though. Everyone quickly figured who he was and continued to give him [bleep] because of his supreme arrogance and abject stupidity. At one pointed he boasted that everyone was just jealous of his shooting skill- in spite of his shooting a cow, leaving her standing there bawling, blaming everything on the PH. What an idiot.

Yes! I just remembered it and logged on but you beat me to it. lol. Shootaway

I wonder if this shootaway dude every posted on AR, or here, that anyone who doesn't get a COVID shot is a complete dumbass, and stupid? Did he make such a moronic post? Please give us a link if you find it please. We need to "out' these pathetic losers.

Same guy

Stupid,I was banned from that site because I was against the Covid Vaccine and lockdowns.BTW,who the hell is "shootaway"?

That would be you, AKA the Montreal Moron. Of course you became Ready Aim Shoot on AR in July 2020 after so many people made fun of your idiotic posts and bragging.

Reading your posts is like listening to CNN.All lies, spins and fake stories.No wonder you've been divorced many times.

swiftshot, I have no idea who you are. jdollar is the complete idiot who can't stay married and thinks anyone who didn't get vaxed and boosted is a dumbass moron, yet he calls others "idiots". It completely went over is pointy little head didn't it?

How would you know how many times I’ve been divorced, George unless you were shootaway on AR? That is your real name and you weren’t kicked off AR. You quit posting under your old name and changed to your new name of Ready Aim Shoot after everyone called you on your bullshit and made fun of your stupid posts. Raider knows that too but he’ll never admit it. Covid, vaccines, etc, had nothing to do with you stopping posting on AR. You just left because everyone made fun of you, like never using shooting sticks. There’s a good reason that the PH’s at CMS Safaris refuse to hunt with you, cow killer.. Post your famous video of you shooting the wrong buffalo( a cow) after you were told not to shoot, George. It makes for great viewing of what not to do, especially listening to your PH.

JGRaider,

I agree with you.

I think I know the "shootaway" you are speaking of.

When he shot the cow he was hunting with a PH who was on his first hunt.He paid a 5000 fine which was the Hippo trophy fee he saved for.He posted the video to show how easy it was to make that mistake.

Even though I have nothing better to do than argue with you,I am not going to argue with you.

What price range do decent doubles start at? I know the skies the limit but I've never paid much attention to doubles. The only big 5 animal I've ever wanted to hunt was Buffalo. I had a chance to go a few years ago and hunt one near the borders of Kruger for a good price but health issues prevented it.

I've since lost about 70 pounds and have a deal with the wife that if I lose 40 more over the next few months then I can go get my Buffalo.

I've been watching for a stainless 20" ruger in 416 ruger but there's not any around lately. I have my 23" ruger African in 375 ruger that served me well for plains game in 2008 so I may just use it if it comes down to it. I'll just have to find some 270g tsx bullets for it.

A buff hunt could be an excuse to get my first double rifle. That is if there's such a thing as a good double in the 4 figure range. I once heard someone did conversions on Browning bss shotguns that were decent and not crazy expensive.

Bb

That would be Butch Searcy but I don’t think he does the shotgun conversions anymore. The .375 Ruger will work just fine and the cost of a good double would finance another buffalo hunt. But if a new gun winds your watch more than another hunt, go for it!

I’m amazed brother Raider hasn’t weighed in with irrelevant comments about Covid by now. He usually follows me around like a lost puppy, posting totally off topic crap that has no benefit to the original question….

Butch Searcy makes a box lock double for about $15k. And Heym makes good doubles, but I think they cost around $25k new. Used rifles can be a bit cheaper.

So it's at least the cost of a plains game hunt. But if you can afford it, why not?

I did my leopard and lion with a bolt. Ele with a double- actually that entire safari in addition to the ele with the double: buff, kudu, impala, wildebeest and bushbuck. Just got back from doing a buff & PG with a bow.

All I can say is that the closer you get to game, the more exciting and rewarding the hunt. I like hunting, I don't gauge a hunt by what is in the salt, so the notion of needing a scoped rifle to ensure a "successful" hunt is foreign to me. Not a small dick SCI type.....

I'm not going back to Africa again with a scoped bolt rifle. Been there, done that rather boring after having done it with a double and a bow.

This most recent hunt we saw 45 dugga boys in 36 hrs, could have shot a boatload with my double if I wanted, but getting to under 20 y on several stalks is as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.

I've decided to pretty much just hunt buff with a bow til I can't do it any longer. I'll shoot a deer or two for my dogs, but not (over)paying to hunt in NA ever again with a rifle. Next year Zambia for hippo, croc & buff with a bow.

Elephants up close, in the herd, with bolt or double is as real as it gets. As long as God allows me enough health and energy, I’ll see this as the ultimate hunt.

A game of strategy with real consequences and rewards both for the hunter and the eles.

Verney Carrons are also a great value. Full disclosure, that is what I own.

To the thread as a whole "Et tu, Brute"

Jeez, an interesting thread topic for someone like me who will never be able to afford a double rifle or a trip to Africa and it too goes sideways three different times because someone has always got to out-ahole someone else.

No love for single shots?

Scoped rifle in a 9.3x62 or 375 H&H.

First two buffalo I hunted were with a Ruger No. 1 in 416 Rem.

I also shot a leopard with a No. 1 in 300 Win. Mag.

None, zero, nada, zilch. BTDT, same with lever actions.

I am bolt action trash. I will stay in my lane so to speak. Not even going to bring in the money spent to get to this point.

If I feel the need to use open sights, I will just pull the scope off.

Single shots are fine- until you need 2 shots in a charge….

Charges never happen, wait Mike Fell may disagree right now.

After my first hunt I always carried a double hunting DG, a tracker carried a 375 bolt gun which was used from time to time. On my fourth safari I hunted leopard with Shaun Buffee. We had one on bait, good daylight, and I put a good shot through it with a No 1. The cat fell off the branch but hung on to the bait, its jaws were clinched shut. Shaun yells shoot it again. My spare bullet is in my shirt pocket because after all you never get a second shot at a leopard. After a good impersonation of Barney Fife and the exhibiting the reloading skills of a spastic monkey, the leopard fell without receiving another shot. Thankfully it was dead at the bottom of the tree.

I was in camp once with someone who's hunted Africa more times than the fingers on both hands. We got to chatting about 450/400 3" NE - mine a #1, his a very nice Chapuis double.
We both are the same height and build and he generously offered to let me fire 2 rounds through his double. I wasn't going to pass that up.

They're not kidding when they say if the rifle is fitted to you it's a joy to shoot. ~10 1/2 lbs weight, and lovely balance between the hands.

I waited until I got back to find out what they cost new and was a bit surprised to find ~$12,000. I expected one to cost more.

I’ve only used a double once and it was a shotgun on a leopard hunt with dogs in Botswana on a leopard hunt. A close range charge on such hunts is almost guaranteed. The leopard was bayed up in a patch of really thick blackthorn. As soon as we arrived the leopard came. My first shot was about 15-20 yards and the thick bush ensured it did nothing. By the time the gun came down out of recoil, the leopard was airborne about 10’ away and the second barrel caught In midair. Tumbled and landed at my feet. Without a second shot, I would have been screwed. There’s a good reason a lot of DG PH’s use a double…… Mine uses a Verney Carron .577 NE. Single shot?. No thanks.

When did you dream that story up?

George, if you keep that up Jerry is not going to invite you over for Thanksgiving dinner.

Usually rifles that don't shoot well move on. So owned one but don't own one.

It certainly wasn’t in the same fantasy land where you shoot a cow buffalo- on video that you posted- after your PH told you not to shoot…. Then you hesitated after the PH told you to come up and finish of the poor, bellowing cow. Come on shootaway aka ready, set, shoot, get honest.

Seeing as how my goal is to make safe handling and proficiency with the Winchester Model 70 second nature, I would go with the Model 70, probably in .375H&H magnum, Warne or Burris Extreme Tactical two piece bases, and swap between an Aimpoint H2 (to keep the loading port open) and a Leupold 1.5-5x20mm scope in QRW rings depending on what I expected to be doing that day. Both optics would back each other up if one failed.

Of the Ph's that were killed in a charge I think there were two that I can remember that were using a bolt.Did the others use bolts too?

That has been my goal also. Have thousands of rounds through my various Model 70's.

My "DG" rifles are set up with Warnes bases, QD rings with back up scopes and iron sights.

Using double gun in 470, 500, 577 Nitro Express is all about close encounters, skill and thrill. That’s fine for the journeyman hunter that has repeated the thrill several times. I’ll bet they started DG hunting on scoped turn bolts from 150 yards out until they were seasoned enough on game and habits. Just an observation.

Between the hayseed camo, plastic bolt rifles with huge scopes, maybe the buffalo was trying to thin out the herd on our side of the evolutionary ladder. At least the JRT gave them some warning

https://www.reddit.com/r/Hunting/comments/civnu8/they_dont_call_cape_buffalo_black_death_for/

Bolt. But only Blaser.

Had an interesting experience reloading for a friend’s 375 H&H Blaser barrel for a trip to Zim about 12 years ago. The rifle appeared to go completely into battery with the reloaded cartridges, except it wouldn’t fire when the trigger was pulled. Visually the bolt was fully closed and no indication of any problem was identifiable.

When I measured headspace of those cartridges, it became obvious the cases, once fired in another rifle were slightly long for the Blaser chamber. Easy adjustment with a body bump die. However, had this happened in the field when my friend was facing a Cape buffalo, it could have ended poorly. In contrast with conventional Mauser or Winchester M-70 type of bolt action rifle, the bolt would have obviously not locked into battery and an easily identified visual cue would have alerted the shooter to the problem.

I am not arguing about the use of the straight pull Blaser mechanism, but it would clearly not be my choice for a true DGR bolt. I disclose that I personally use Win M-70 and Ruger M-77 CRF bolts preferentially for DGRs so I have a bias for that mechanism. It’s never let me down. I’m just relating my experience and acknowledge that YMMV.

BTW, I resolved the reloading error I made and my friend used his Blaser with the 375 H&H bbl for a nice Cape buff and his 300 Win Mag bbl for several PG & a leopard.

A Blaser would be just about the last rifle I'd want to hunt DG with except maybe a 700.

My action preference is 98 Mausers

I would be hard pressed to improve upon my 416 Rem M70 as a dangerous game rifle. Not too heavy, balances where I like it and is accurate enough for anything I will and have hunted with it. A McM Winchester Express stock, Williams extractor, bolt handle welded and Jim Wisner's front and rear sights, the latter being a copy of the pre-64 M70 Express sight. It's 100% reliable.

Nice set up for sure, EdM. If I ever feel the need to step up from my 375 H&H's (don't currently), I would set up a 416 Rem in a similar fashion.

EdM,

Your 416 inspired mine. At the smith's right now getting cerakoted. Got a load all dialed in for 350 TSX's. Waiting to post pics until I get it completely finished.

Then to book another buffalo hunt.

Love it!

Here is my only buffalo. With a 404 J

There are innumerable stories and examples of hunters who were saved by the instantly available second shot from a double.
And probably just as many examples of where a third or fourth shot from a bolt action saved their life.

The shooter's familiarity and capability with their weapon is paramount, but there is always an element of luck.

That is why I am bolt action trash. Intimately familiar with that action.

Under stress you instinctively revert to the familiar.

Hmmm...do they make 760's in .375?

I am feeling that I want a rifle whose shots will strike where I can predict they will strike all the time.That is the most important requirement-even at longer ranges.That I get with a solidly built rifle with a good barrel.A brand new m70 in 375H&H will answer that call.The recoil on that gun is not enough to knock iron sights around.I shot one my PH received as a gift in Africa.It was really accurate and pleasant to shoot offhand.

That's something I'd not ever heard before. Must be alot of 458+ iron sights lying around in the dirt around the place.

Never ever had iron sight knocked around.

Anything can work loose, but a modicum diligence takes care of that.

" modicum diligence" Does Brownell's carry that glue?

You can get it a most hardware stores.

George AKA the Montreal moron is an idiot with a long history of stupid comments. Open sights on hard kicking doubles is the norm. Anyone ever hear of their sights shifting due to recoil? .375 recoil is mild and to worry about iron sights shifting is simply asinine.

I second that emotion. A complete buffoon...

Hi EdM, good shooting!

Just curious, how many yards away it that target? and how long is your average shot in Africa?

I screwed up by switching to a “new to me” Winchester 70 after many years of shooting and hunting with Remington 700’s. That might have been my first model 70, I’m not sure. I shot that model 70 quite a bit at the range, but never was in a hurry to take the safety off. I had buck and bull tags in Colorado. It was snowing and was three a.m. when I got where I wanted to be on a mountain near Grandby. First light a large buck got up within 50’ of me and disappeared in short order. I was pushing the safety foreword as the mule deer disappeared. I wasn’t stressed as in danger, but that rack and me being too slow to shoot - trying to take the safety off is a memory I’ll not forget. Being familiar with your rifle, in my opinion, trumps bolt, lever, or double.

The target is 100 yards away. My shots were 130 yards on buffalo, 240 on kudu, 60 on bushbuck, 160 on waterbuck and 20 on cervil.

Bolt of course and with a New Model 70.

Hello again EdM, thank you for your response.

I have to go to Africa, I have just the rifle for it and that trip has been on my Bucket List for WAY TOO LONG!

Cheers ~ KB

I'd have 470 nitro express or a 500 nitro express double rifle, and hunt the big 5 till i died!!

Boy are you guys -----BEATING THE [bleep] OUTA THIS ONE!!!!

Give it a break, move on to something else!

Hip

Best post for sure.

I would carry the one JJhack had made some time ago, wish he would post pics of it again, it was well thought out by an expert as at true working rflle, forget the caliber but I think it had a ghost ring sight set up.
Maybe he will post on it.

Since the rifle I am most familiar with and fits me like a glove, it comes up perfectly lined up every time is a Steyr Mannlicher Model M professional .30-06 so it would obviously not be my first choice for dangerous game. I would have to get a Steyr Mannlicher Model S in either .375 H&H or .458 Win Mag. I would run the .458 out to the Lott if the mags would work. I would want one of the models with the extra mag on the butt. Get lots of ammo and practice a lot. Either would be fitted with a low power scope in QD mounts

I had a model M professional.It was my first rifle and was a gift from my dad.It was chambered for the 270 win.It had its issues.One being the plastic magazine, plastic parts in its trigger that solvents ate up and an awkward butter knife shaped bolt handle that would interfere with my forearm and lift slightly upwards when I would wear a coat and cause the rifle not to fire.Despite that I loved it.The original Steyr mounts I had on it were awesome and always kept their point of aim.

I have been lucky and not had any mag problems with any of the “M” or “MIII” Professionals I have had. I love the bolt handle and prefer the double set trigger versions although the single set trigger is nice also. I have not had one yet that wouldn’t shoot under 1/2” with their preferred loads. I have had them in .25-06, .270, .30-06 and 9.3x62mm. I am only missing the 7x64mm and 8x57 I think.

I have seen a video of "swiftshot" braining an elephant with an iron sighted double. One shot dead. I don't know how many of you fellows have done that.

Did you see his video of him shooting a cow buffalo after his PH told him not to shoot? Or the follow up where the PH told him to come forward and finish off the cow he shot illegally? It makes for interesting viewing…. Of course it’s difficult to find that video since he tried to bury it years ago.

I had the double set trigger too.I loved it and took game with it-mostly caribou.Sorry it was not the mag. that I had issues with it was the plastic trigger guard that would crack around the guard screw holes-I replaced it many times and the gun store owner had a smile on his face every time I ordered another.It was easy to get dirt trapped inside that mag however if you left it in your pocket-sometimes I would get tobacco in mine if I had in in the same pocket with my smokes.

Thanks!