Does anyone hunt with one? Recommendation for factory load? I know it's not the most ideal cartridge for deer, but it's my Aunts rifle who has killed a ton of deer with it. She's in her 70s and hasn't hunted deer in awhile so I asked her if I could try to fill a tag or two with it this year. I plan on picking my shots wisely and keeping them to 50 yards.
If you must, the best factory load would be the Winchester hollow point. The hollow point is tiny, about 1/16", but a big pistol hollow point is neither needed nor desirable at carbine velocities. Keep in mind that you are dealing with magnum pistol ballistics and a very light for caliber bullet, so careful shooting and archery range is called for. Check your local laws because the M1 Carbine is sometimes specifically not allowed for deer. With good reason.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/1cWyDix.jpg)
If you must, the best factory load would be the Winchester hollow point. The hollow point is tiny, about 1/16", but a big pistol hollow point is neither needed nor desirable at carbine velocities. Keep in mind that you are dealing with magnum pistol ballistics and a very light for caliber bullet, so careful shooting and archery range is called for. Check your local laws because the M1 Carbine is sometimes specifically not allowed for deer. With good reason.
why would a 30 carbine not be allowed for deer? they allow 357 pistols
I used a 30 carbine though from a Ruger Blackhawk on a couple of deer. The soft nose Remington load did not expand much but it penetrated well. I would not use the Blackhawk again for deer but it worked for me twice.
Cool . I bet you could go to 100 yds
Good advice from natman,
Not a lot to choose from as far as factory loads - that Winchester load he mentioned is probably about as good as any that you'll find easily.
If your Aunt has killed a ton of deer with it, why not just ask her what load she was using if she's still around or maybe another family member can remember what it was??
I used a 30 carbine though from a Ruger Blackhawk on a couple of deer. The soft nose Remington load did not expand much but it penetrated well. I would not use the Blackhawk again for deer but it worked for me twice.
I just picked up one that I was gonna tote some for back-up this year. Will be interesting...
I certainly wouldn’t consider anything over 50 yds.
A few years ago I bought a Marlin 62 lever action so chambered and at some point I intend to point it at a doe. I had planned to use the Hornady FTX load but they're not terribly accurate in this gun. A few months ago I picked up a box of Herters brand hollow points similar to the Winchester load but haven't had a chance to try them yet.
Cool . I bet you could go to 100 yds
I killed a couple of average size blacktail deer at around that range years ago - one about 90yds & the other around 110 yds.
Clean kills with complete penetration just behind the shoulder on both with cheap factory Remington soft points.
I wouldn't go any farther than that, and closer if you can, and stay off the shoulders and large bones - just my
.02cts.
My late uncle started using one after he was busted up in a work accident. He was the best shot in the family and he had trouble with the deer running after being hit and being hard to recover. He tried different factory loads and finally had me loading for the rifle. I don't remember the bullets that were reloaded, but they had better stopping power.
Cool . I bet you could go to 100 yds
There are a lot of factors that make a bullet work - diameter, weight, velocity, sectional density. The only one the M1 Carbine has going for it is velocity. It's small diameter (by pistol standards) and light, so it has little sectional density. Combine that with a not very aerodynamic shape and velocity drops off quickly. Sure, if you hit a deer just right at 100 yards with a soft point it won't do its health much good if things go right. But you should choose a cartridge that will still work if - no,
when - things go wrong. There's not much extra anything with the M1 Carbine. Keep the range short.
It's been several years now but originally the .30 cal. carbine round was not allowed for deer in Kentucky. During the same period .240 caliber was the minimum legal cartridge allowed. Both are legal here now though.
Hard to figure how both the .30 carbine and .223 were acceptable cartridges for military issue and killed countless enemies but considered not up to par to kill a deer with.
I killed my first head of big game, a tiny mule deer buck when I was 11 years old. I used a 30 carbine and Winchester 110 grain hollow points. One behind the should shot into the heart at @100 yards put a quickened step to the 100 lb deer. It ran @50 yards and died. I recovered the perfectly mushroomed bullet. Penetration was minimal. I lost the bullet during my wild teen years and would really like to have it back. I would not use a carbine again on deer sized game. I recovered a 110 grain Speer Varmiter hollow point from a 4 pound racoon.
Deer deserve to be treated with more respect than that.
Just saying.....
I killed my first head of big game, a tiny mule deer buck when I was 11 years old. I used a 30 carbine and Winchester 110 grain hollow points. One behind the should shot into the heart at @100 yards put a quickened step to the 100 lb deer. It ran @50 yards and died. I recovered the perfectly mushroomed bullet. Penetration was minimal. I lost the bullet during my wild teen years and would really like to have it back. I would not use a carbine again on deer sized game. I recovered a 110 grain Speer Varmiter hollow point from a 4 pound racoon.
Heck, I recovered a 255 gr. Luballoy .45 Colt bullet from a raccoon once upon a time, and we also got a couple 230 .45ACP ball bullets from the same coon! They can absorb a lot of lead now and then. We finally killed the danged thing with a .22 rifle, and had to pry it off the tree limb.
I've killed a bunch of coons with .22 Short HPs, but they're tough little fuggers.
As you said, short range, pick your shot. Killed my first deer with a 30 carbine, 20 yards, just where the neck joins the head. DRT.
Deer deserve to be treated with more respect than that.
Just saying.....
WTF does that even mean?
I’ve seen several killed with the .30 carbine. Works fine if you can shoot. Place a bad shot and it’s about like any thing else.
I don't, but have thought about using my old 351 Win SL, iirc the 180gr Hawk bullet runs around 1800 fps over 4227 powder, may work on a close lung hit.
Had a Ruger Blackhawk in 30 carbine. Shot numerous jack rabbits and cottontails with it, using various loads and reloads. Could not get rid of it fast enough. 22 lr hollow points were far more lethal. Now, with the 110 gr bullets designed for the Blackout it maybe a better round.
30 carbine is a terrible deer round. Under 50 yards, maybe, but you better not make a marginal hit as the kinetic energy of the bullet impact is weak. Had a relative hunt with one for years, he was always losing deer and wasted a lot of people’s time trailing poorly shot deer.
Grandpa didnt like using them on folks from asia, he said they sure as hell weren't adequate for deer.
I've had only 1 experience with a 30 carbine, way back in Jr high. A friend and I were with our dads. He was carrying one. We hadn't even left the car when a doe ran by. I was closest and lung shot her with a 30-30 from about 40 or 50 yds. Then my friend cut loose with the carbine. He had a 16 round mag and I'm not kidding, when we skinned her we counted 16 holes besides mine. He hit her in any place a deer could be shot. It was a mess. Dad winked at me and said to him 'here's your deer'. I don't remember what bullets he was using, probably milsurp solids.
Grandpa didnt like using them on folks from asia, he said they sure as hell weren't adequate for deer.
Must not have been them people from the Philippines.
Hard to figure how both the .30 carbine and .223 were acceptable cartridges for military issue and killed countless enemies but considered not up to par to kill a deer with.
In a firefight, a wound is often as good as or better than a kill. Not so much in a hunt. Same reason you dont hunt deer with hand grenades.
Funny how we're told the .30 Carbine won't work on deer, but the 32-20 has been used as such for almost 140 years, (Elmer Keith used a 32-20 revolver to take three mule deer and an elk (SIXGUNS pp.276)) and now the .327 Federal, either from a revolver or a Henry lever is said to be the berries for deer. Either of the aforementioned are less powerful than the .30 Carbine from a rifle.
I say, as with any cartridge, place your shots properly, go forth with a good bullet and load, and you'll be fine.
My uncle wants to hunt with his old military M1. I was unsure of the knockdown power of the .30 carbine but right now it’s trying to find a smaller magazine that’s the problem anyways.
Does anyone hunt with one? Recommendation for factory load? I know it's not the most ideal cartridge for deer, but it's my Aunts rifle who has killed a ton of deer with it. She's in her 70s and hasn't hunted deer in awhile so I asked her if I could try to fill a tag or two with it this year. I plan on picking my shots wisely and keeping them to 50 yards.
That should work. Two girl cousins shot numerous blacktails with them. Use Remington or Winchester softpoint ammo and put them in their lungs.
I never used a .30 Carbine on deer but my first CF rifle was an 1892 24" octagon in .32-20. Those work pretty well at short range.
Deer deserve to be treated with more respect than that.
Just saying.....
I tend to agree with that. I've got my fathers Carbine that he bought through the DCM back in the 1960's. I've deer hunted with it, even shot one, something that didn't turn out too well. Sure, it'll kill a deer, probably kill an elephant if you hit in the right place, but there are far better choices. If it's all you have, and you need to kill a deer, pick your shot at as close a range as possible, and it'll probably work just fine. But just remember, there are better choices in a deer rifle.
Sentimental reasons.
I guess are driving you wanting to hunt with it.
You might regret it if a nice buck presents a shot and you aint got a reach out their and touch something rifle with some power behind it.
Just saying.....
I had a good friend that used it once, his handle was thirteen shoots fired.
It's been several years now but originally the .30 cal. carbine round was not allowed for deer in Kentucky. During the same period .240 caliber was the minimum legal cartridge allowed. Both are legal here now though.
Hard to figure how both the .30 carbine and .223 were acceptable cartridges for military issue and killed countless enemies but considered not up to par to kill a deer with.
Because, in combat, no one is concerned with instantaneous drops or tracking jobs. Often times a wounded combatant takes two stretcher bearers and/or a medic out of the action as well.
Have to say a .30 carbine would not be my first choice for deer, but if it was all I had there would be no hesitation. Pretty much like plinkin’ hogs with CB Shorts, it’s all about placement.
It's been several years now but originally the .30 cal. carbine round was not allowed for deer in Kentucky. During the same period .240 caliber was the minimum legal cartridge allowed. Both are legal here now though.
Hard to figure how both the .30 carbine and .223 were acceptable cartridges for military issue and killed countless enemies but considered not up to par to kill a deer with.
Because, in combat, no one is concerned with instantaneous drops or tracking jobs. Often times a wounded combatant takes two stretcher bearers and/or a medic out of the action as well.
a wounded soldier can sill fire back and kill you
once a shot a small finch with the 30 carbine the bullet bounced of it almost hit me and the little finch just flew away
My two eldest sons, 29 and 30, killed their first deer with one 20+ years ago. A borrowed, scope sighted rifle with Remington loads. Seem to recall 75'ish yard shots, through the lungs, a short run and down.
My Dad told me he traded his Carbine for a Springfield when he witnessed a guy riding back into camp laughing about a chest wound he received from a idiot sentry armed with a carbine.
Guy I used to work with used one exclusively. He wasn’t a gun guy... didn’t understand what the problem was when the gun guys would criticize it. He killed more deer than most of the gun guys.
It’s like any other cartridge/rifle combination: understand what it takes to kill what you’re hunting in terms of shot placement and penetration potential, use it within those parameters and you’re fine.
Sometimes we tend to judge a cartridge’s effectiveness by factors that have nothing to do with effectiveness.
The longest follow up I can recall on a deer was one hit marginally with a.30-06. I killed it wi my .44 magnum.
Just because somebody’s cousin Elrod loses half a dozen deer a year ass-shooting them with a .30 Carbine, doesn’t mean it’s no good. Elrod would lose just as many with a.30-06 because he’s a pisspoor shot. When he finally gets a.300 magnum because the .30-06 won’t put deer down fast enough, the problem will only get worse.
I seem to remember my Dad saying that the M1 Carbine was issued to guys like him......he was in a howitzer unit, truck drivers, officers, essentially behind the lines people.....who were not going to see combat unless things went to hell and they got overrun. It was handier than a full sized Garand for people to at least have something if things went to hell while not having to tote a Garand day to day. I don't know that "countless enemies" fell to it.
I would not use either but I'd use a 223 every day of the week over a carbine.....simply because of the velocity and that fact that you can get good big game bullets for it. There is probably a reason you don't see pictures of deer on boxes of 30 carbine ammo.....but ya'll use what you want. These "how much is enough" arguments never get anywhere.
much better choices out there..........
hell even the 270........
Thanks for the responses, sentimental reasons were the primary reasons for hunting with it, its my aunts favorite rifle who if lucky is 5' tall and maybe 100 lbs. I know she's killed a bunch of deer with it, so I thought it would be cool to pay homage to her. Looking at the ammo in her clips it looks like standard ball ammo which I have no intention of using to hunt with. Honestly after I lost three fingers last month including my trigger finger I didn't have much of a urge to go hunting
Wow! Sorry to read that, Irving! Hope you are coping.
Your aunt wasn't just a decent shot, she was no doubt a good hunter too. That is, she got close.
Guy I used to work with used one exclusively. He wasn’t a gun guy... didn’t understand what the problem was when the gun guys would criticize it. He killed more deer than most of the gun guys.
It’s like any other cartridge/rifle combination: understand what it takes to kill what you’re hunting in terms of shot placement and penetration potential, use it within those parameters and you’re fine.
Sometimes we tend to judge a cartridge’s effectiveness by factors that have nothing to do with effectiveness.
The longest follow up I can recall on a deer was one hit marginally with a.30-06. I killed it wi my .44 magnum.
Just because somebody’s cousin Elrod loses half a dozen deer a year ass-shooting them with a .30 Carbine, doesn’t mean it’s no good. Elrod would lose just as many with a.30-06 because he’s a pisspoor shot. When he finally gets a.300 magnum because the .30-06 won’t put deer down fast enough, the problem will only get worse.
And a bigger gun means that it'll wound at a longer range. He wounds deer with an '06 at 400 yds because he can't shoot and the 300 Mag allows him to wound them at 500+. They never tell you how many they wound at long range, do they?
I’m going to kill a deer with my .36 cal Bobcat CVA muzzleloader one of these days. Just to do it.
I have maxi bullets for it.
Barnes makes a 110 Tac-TX I always wanted to use on deer....300 Blackout
Haven't yet...these Ruger American's are a handy truck gun....
110 gr Nosler or Hornady V max shoot well inside 200 yds..coyotes
Long live the 300 BO !
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/84vHOq0.jpg)
Guys have been hunting deer for 70+ years with the M1 Carbine. Back in the 50s and 60s you could pick them up cheap. Even in the late 80's I was able to a few that came out of Korea for $125-$150 each. Clinton ended those imports.
In all those years, the general consensus of those hunting deer with the M1 carbine is that is marginal at best, and less than a perfect shot usually lead to an unrecovered wounded deer.
Broadside shot at less than 75 years? Yeah, it will work, but don't ask for much more from it.
On another note, I used to take my M1 Carbines to our 200 yard range and use the 10" metal gong as a target. With the issued open peep sights , I could hit the gong 7/10 times on a calm day. Fun, but no tack driver.
Honestly, hunt deer with something else and save yourself the frustration of tracking and losing a deer because you were under gunned.
One step above the AR-15 and that ain’t saying much!!
I seem to remember my Dad saying that the M1 Carbine was issued to guys like him......he was in a howitzer unit, truck drivers, officers, essentially behind the lines people.....who were not going to see combat unless things went to hell and they got overrun. It was handier than a full sized Garand for people to at least have something if things went to hell while not having to tote a Garand day to day. I don't know that "countless enemies" fell to it.
I would not use either but I'd use a 223 every day of the week over a carbine.....simply because of the velocity and that fact that you can get good big game bullets for it. There is probably a reason you don't see pictures of deer on boxes of 30 carbine ammo.....but ya'll use what you want. These "how much is enough" arguments never get anywhere.
So what is your stand on, "These "how much is enough" arguments never get anywhere."?
What you are saying is indeed the intended purpose of the 30 Carbine when it was introduced.
The fact of the matter is that it was widely used by infantry and airborne troops in both theaters of World War II and Korea and beyond. As a result of its popularity and effectiveness, an official number of 6,121,309 of them were produced from July 1942 – August 1945 for the US military. That number far exceeds any other firearm produced for military use in WWII.
Why? Because many actual combat troops preferred it over the M1 Garand.
Is it an ideal deer rifle? No, but lets not trivialize it military importance to justify not hunting deer with one. I own two of them but I will probably will never hunt deer with one simply because I have other better choices at my disposal. That said, like Dan stated earlier,
Have to say a .30 carbine would not be my first choice for deer, but if it was all I had there would be no hesitation. Pretty much like plinkin’ hogs with CB Shorts, it’s all about placement.
My uncle wants to hunt with his old military M1. I was unsure of the knockdown power of the .30 carbine but right now it’s trying to find a smaller magazine that’s the problem anyways.
How small a magazine are you looking for?
My dad used one in the Korean War. He didn't like the stopping power at all.
I seem to remember my Dad saying that the M1 Carbine was issued to guys like him......he was in a howitzer unit, truck drivers, officers, essentially behind the lines people.....who were not going to see combat unless things went to hell and they got overrun. It was handier than a full sized Garand for people to at least have something if things went to hell while not having to tote a Garand day to day. I don't know that "countless enemies" fell to it.
I would not use either but I'd use a 223 every day of the week over a carbine.....simply because of the velocity and that fact that you can get good big game bullets for it. There is probably a reason you don't see pictures of deer on boxes of 30 carbine ammo.....but ya'll use what you want. These "how much is enough" arguments never get anywhere.
My Dad had an M1 with the stock cut down in the Sherman with him. Toward the end of the war, he had an M2 in same garb.
He was not behind the lines.
Barnes makes a 110 Tac-TX I always wanted to use on deer....300 Blackout
Haven't yet...these Ruger American's are a handy truck gun....
110 gr Nosler or Hornady V max shoot well inside 200 yds..coyotes
Long live the 300 BO !
My 7yo killed his a nice buck with a 300bo I built for him, shooting those barnes.
Not so much a ballistics question...as it is an ethics question. Just because you can doesn't necessarily mean you should.
Deer deserve to be treated with more respect than that.
Just saying.....
WTF does that even mean?
It means that if you're going to shoot a deer use a more powerful cartridge.
While the 30 carbine will kill a deer, it is marginal at best.
Riddle me this. If a .45 flintlock is suitable for deer...why not the .30 Carbine? Flinter has a slight advantage in projectile weight, but less velocity....is nostalgia deadly?
What a series of ridiculous arguments. What the .30 Carbine did in war has nothing to do with what it will do in hunting scenarios...hint: expanding bullets. Pick the right bullet and put it into the vitals from as far away as you can reliably hit them and the deer will die. Picking the right bullet is probably the hardest part of this scenario.
Riddle me this. If a .45 flintlock is suitable for deer...why not the .30 Carbine? Flinter has a slight advantage in projectile weight, but less velocity....is nostalgia deadly?
That ^ , and besides your pig hunting experience, there is always the .25-20 Jordan Buck argument too.
Being so armed, and being hungry, I would not hesitate to take the shot. Even with mine or Slummy's .36 Cal smoker.
But, I do have others I'd likely bring if I knew I'd be in that position.
Irving, I'd say go for it for sentimental reasons should you choose to.
Thanks for the responses, sentimental reasons were the primary reasons for hunting with it, its my aunts favorite rifle who if lucky is 5' tall and maybe 100 lbs. I know she's killed a bunch of deer with it, so I thought it would be cool to pay homage to her. Looking at the ammo in her clips it looks like standard ball ammo which I have no intention of using to hunt with.
I did not think about that and I'm kind of wondering if the ball ammo did not work in her favor. You would be likely to get full penetration and a 30 caliber hole through both lungs is still certainly gonna be fatal and probably leave you some good blood to follow.....probably would break shoulders too. Trouble is its illegal to hunt with ball ammo most places.
If you wanted to go to the trouble you perhaps could load some of those Barnes 110's to sort of recreate what she was doing.
Your aunt sounds like a cool lady!
Riddle me this. If a .45 flintlock is suitable for deer...why not the .30 Carbine? Flinter has a slight advantage in projectile weight, but less velocity....is nostalgia deadly?
That ^ , and besides your pig hunting experience, there is always the .25-20 Jordan Buck argument too.
As we all know, DD is a case unto himself. The exception that proves the the rule, as it were.
And remember that the Jordan buck was shot about a dozen times with the 25-20 and then drowned in a crik. As much as I love the 25-20, I’d have to be pretty desperate to shoot a deer with it.
My wife’s uncle carried am M1 carbine in the Pacific theater during WWII, including on Iwo Jima. He was with a mortar crew and was initially issued a pistol as his personal firearm. He quickly traded it for a carbine. He told me the carbine had two advantages over the pistol. First, it held more ammo and secondly, it could be fitted with a bayonet.
Riddle me this. If a .45 flintlock is suitable for deer...why not the .30 Carbine? Flinter has a slight advantage in projectile weight, but less velocity....is nostalgia deadly?
That ^ , and besides your pig hunting experience, there is always the .25-20 Jordan Buck argument too.
As we all know, DD is a case unto himself. The exception that proves the the rule, as it were.
And remember that the Jordan buck was shot about a dozen times with the 25-20 and then drowned in a crik.
As much as I love the 25-20, I’d have to be pretty desperate to shoot a deer with it.
Which is exactly why I used a disclaimer
Being so armed, and being hungry, I would not hesitate to take the shot.
And for sure Dan is a special one for sure.
Valsdad,
You’ll get no argument from me on both counts. Especially, about Dan being “Special”!
Riddle me this. If a .45 flintlock is suitable for deer...why not the .30 Carbine? Flinter has a slight advantage in projectile weight, but less velocity....is nostalgia deadly?
That ^ , and besides your pig hunting experience, there is always the .25-20 Jordan Buck argument too.
As we all know, DD is a case unto himself. The exception that proves the the rule, as it were.
And remember that the Jordan buck was shot about a dozen times with the 25-20 and then drowned in a crik. As much as I love the 25-20, I’d have to be pretty desperate to shoot a deer with it.
My wife’s uncle carried am M1 carbine in the Pacific theater during WWII, including on Iwo Jima. He was with a mortar crew and was initially issued a pistol as his personal firearm. He quickly traded it for a carbine. He told me the carbine had two advantages over the pistol. First, it held more ammo and secondly, it could be fitted with a bayonet.
the original carbine did NOT have a provision for attaching a bayonet. that came later with a type three bayonet lug ring as i remember.
you can also handload carbine ammo with a much more effective bullet. people think a 357magnum pistola is okay on deer, but not the carbine. what? Understandably better choices however. when they issued the carbine, it came with a fighting knife, no provision for attachment. later the barrel ring was replaced by one with a lug, and the handle of the knife modified to mount on the lug.
this has been going around forever. I like to answer it as follows:
a 9mm typically has a 115 grain bullet, fired at 1200fps, diameter .356
the carbine has a 110grain bullet, fired at 2000fps, diameter .308
as it was meant as a replacement for a pistol, it works pretty good.
it was never meant to replace the garand.
I cant believe nobody puked out the old bull crap war story that in Korea the 30 carbine bullets bounced off the straw vests the Chinese wore
I cant believe nobody puked out the old bull crap war story that in Korea the 30 carbine bullets bounced off the straw vests the Chinese wore
The way I heard it, the bullets were stopped by the kapok insulated jackets the Norks wore.
The exception that proves the the rule
That saying drives me up the wall.
There is probably a reason you don't see pictures of deer on boxes of 30 carbine ammo
Well shut my mouth.......actually open it and insert foot.
These Federals say they are for medium game and have the "deer icon" on the box.
https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle/power-shok/power-shok-rifle/11-30CA.html
I cant believe nobody puked out the old bull crap war story that in Korea the 30 carbine bullets bounced off the straw vests the Chinese wore
The way I heard it, the bullets were stopped by the kapok insulated jackets the Norks wore.
That's the story. Seems hard to recreate that, from the tests I've seen
Can you kill a deer with a the 30 Carbine cartridge? Yes. Are there better rounds to use? Yes. It is legal? Depends on the state. Would I use it? Not if I could get my hands on something else.
The exception that proves the the rule
That saying drives me up the wall.
Yep! Me too...but it always seems somehow appropriate. And, no one ever asks what it means, which is good, because I really have no idea.
The exception TESTS the rule.
As in: U.S. Army Aberdeen Proving Ground
Bruce
DD is a case unto himself.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. My rash has been cured for at least 7 months.
I hope all you fellas realize that if you quit thinking about your wench it's not hard to put a bullet where it needs to go. Really.
Bruce, if you're going to introduce logic into this conversation, we are just going to have to ask you to leave. These types of "discussions" are always governed by emotions, memories - both real and faulty, and something that had been heard sometime and may or may not pertain to the topic. Sheesh! Such simple rules, you'd think you'd be able to follow them.
RoninPhx,
I really don't know WWII armament history so well that I can argue either way. I can only relate what this veteran told me, more than once and that was that he had a bayonet on the carbine. Whether it was a GI mount or something he'd made out of baling wire and a C-Rat can, I don't know. He was a big Finnish farm kid from far northern Minnesota and spoke factually every time we talked. On his deathbed, he had nightmares about Iwo and wept like a baby...and he begged the Lord for forgiveness. Not unlike a lot of veterans I imagine.
The exception that proves the the rule
That saying drives me up the wall.
Yep! Me too...but it always seems somehow appropriate. And, no one ever asks what it means, which is good, because I really have no idea.
In another life I was a professional mathematician. Exceptions are counterexamples which
disprove statements unless explicitly accounted for in advance of testing validity.
Back in the early '80s, I burned up a couple thousand of those .308 110 gr Speer Varminter in the 30-06. I started with them loaded over a max charge of IMR 4198, and quickly learned that I could not put a hole in a 14 inch paper target at 100 yds with the load.
But I could put 6 to 10 holes with one pull of the trigger when I walked up to 15 yds.........uh yeah.
So anyway, I slowed them down to about 2300 fps and shot the hell out of them for several summers on whistle pigs, muskrats, or just jacking around.
Shooting muskrats on water was a perfect application as they opened violently on impact and never richocheted. There was nothing downrange but miles and miles of sagebrush, cheatgrass, and maybe a coyote.
I always thought that bullet would be the cat's meow in a 30 Carbine. But have never had a chance to try it. I don't think deer would be the proper application however.
The exception TESTS the rule.
As in: U.S. Army Aberdeen Proving Ground[quote=Johnny Dollar]Bruce, if you're going to introduce logic into this conversation, we are just going to have to ask you to leave. These types of "discussions" are always governed by emotions, memories - both real and faulty, and something that had been heard sometime and may or may not pertain to the topic. Sheesh! Such simple rules, you'd think you'd be able to follow them.
RoninPhx,
I really don't know WWII armament history so well that I can argue either way. I can only relate what this veteran told me, more than once and that was that he had a bayonet on the carbine. Whether it was a GI mount or something he'd made out of baling wire and a C-Rat can, I don't know. He was a big Finnish farm kid from far northern Minnesota and spoke factually every time we talked. On his deathbed, he had nightmares about Iwo and wept like a baby...and he begged the Lord for forgiveness. Not unlike a lot of veterans I imagine.
even the M1 carbines bayonet could not penetrate the enemies vests in Korea lol
And for sure Dan is a special one for sure.
Naw, I ain't near as special as this fella. Reminds me of a fella named Chuck in a way.
![[Linked Image from images3.memedroid.com]](https://images3.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED651/58fc244e7582a.jpeg)
Bruce, if you're going to introduce logic into this conversation, we are just going to have to ask you to leave. These types of "discussions" are always governed by emotions, memories - both real and faulty, and something that had been heard sometime and may or may not pertain to the topic. Sheesh! Such simple rules, you'd think you'd be able to follow them.
RoninPhx,
I really don't know WWII armament history so well that I can argue either way. I can only relate what this veteran told me, more than once and that was that he had a bayonet on the carbine. Whether it was a GI mount or something he'd made out of baling wire and a C-Rat can, I don't know. He was a big Finnish farm kid from far northern Minnesota and spoke factually every time we talked. On his deathbed, he had nightmares about Iwo and wept like a baby...and he begged the Lord for forgiveness. Not unlike a lot of veterans I imagine.
there were a number of modifications during the war, i can think of at least three front barrel bands off the top of my head.
the last one had a bayonet lug, which given the time frame of iwo, not doubting the bayonet. kind of useless, like the one for the m16.
i have a small addiction to carbines, been messing with them for years.
they were still in use during the vietnam years. friend of mine found one in a stream, took it to a armorer, and had it converted to a m2, automatic. cut the buttstock off, put a leather thong on it worn around his neck. called it his whore house gun.
I certainly wouldn’t consider anything over 50 yds.
This. They've killed many more deer than their owners have found.
Some of Hemmlers deer shot by my uncle in the black forest in WW2 with one were hit a couple or 3 times on the run and werent recoverd by his men. You can imagine the odds of a hit deer getting away from a bunch of hungry grunts after eating their rations for a while.
Yep. Id much prefer a 55 gr hornady interlock at 3250 out of an AR for deer.
Holy crap this is getting rediculous. Old codger up the road here has killed a pile of deer with an old Savage .32-20. Far as I know the only rifle he owns and he eats venison every year. A friend of mine has killed a bunch with a .22 hornet. I've killed several with .22LR. .22 mag. and 5mm rimfire mag. as well as a .357 revolver. Anybody who can't get it done with a .30 carbine ain't much of a hunter.
DD is a case unto himself.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. My rash has been cured for at least 7 months.
I hope all you fellas realize that if you quit thinking about your wench it's not hard to put a bullet where it needs to go. Really.
Did i tell you about my youngest uncle Eugene from E Texas who got a very distracting crawley kind of icthy rash somehow while over in the Korean Conflict.
He said he snuck over behind some pallets of boxes of cans of DDT and when no one was looking his way he pulled out the front of his pants and drawers and dumped in about half a can.
He said it was a wonderful treatement but I noted he seemed to be a little strange in his old age and lingered in a nursing home for many years due to dementia.
It was an inglorious ending to one who had been a great shot on deer and squirrels and played on the army football team for a while. Got his right eye soundly injured in NK and ended up switching to shoot left handed.
His oldest brother had done the deer harvesting for his troops years earlier in Germany.
All you have to do is sit yo ass still, don’t smell like a minute mart and let em get good and close.
Proper shot placement and you’ll have no problems knocking one down. Just use soft point ammo
By the way this a button buck.
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All you have to do is sit yo ass still, don’t smell like a minute mart and let em get good and close.
Proper shot placement and you’ll have no problems knocking one down. Just use soft point ammo
My gawd. Yew meen to say that still wurks?
That's funny how animals have got so blankety
blanking bullet proof even since I started hunting.
I hear all these folks talk about expansion this and
kinetic energy that, when the bare truth is that
if you poke a hole through the pump house and
let blood out of where it's supposed to be, and air
into where it's not supposed to be, animals will die.
I've shot plenty of animals with arrows that didn't
expand or transfer any energy, and the animals
died and went into freezer bags.
And for sure Dan is a special one for sure.
Naw, I ain't near as special as this fella. Reminds me of a fella named Chuck in a way.
Uh.........................OK.
All you have to do is sit yo ass still, don’t smell like a minute mart and let em get good and close.
Proper shot placement and you’ll have no problems knocking one down. Just use soft point ammo
By the way this a button buck.
Beautiful. Thanks, Slum. Been a while since i saw one in the E Texas river bottoms. One walked by me in the E Texas sandy loam hills north of the timbered bottoms last year, but it had been logged several years ago and was travelling through replanted pine and black berry brambles and weeds.
Not the same.
... an official number of 6,121,309 of them were produced from July 1942 – August 1945 for the US military. That number far exceeds any other firearm produced for military use in WWII.
Why? Because many actual combat troops preferred it over the M1 Garand.
1. All of those heaps of carbines were ordered, and most were delivered, before US ground troops had used them in combat to any meaningful degree.
2. Actual troops preferred it to the Garand because 95% of their job was something other than rifleman, and usually behind the lines at that, and the Carbine was easy to carry around.
3. In any case nobody gave a damn what they preferred, conscripts carried what they were issued. They ate food you wouldn't feed your dog and wore cotton jackets in the rain too.
I certainly wouldn’t consider anything over 50 yds.
This. They've killed many more deer than their owners have found.
Some of Hemmlers deer shot by my uncle in the black forest in WW2 with one were hit a couple or 3 times on the run and werent recoverd by his men. You can imagine the odds of a hit deer getting away from a bunch of hungry grunts after eating their rations for a while.
My guess is, most calibers have killed many more deer than their owners have found.
My other guess is, that shooting at those deer, on the run, in the Black Forest, with a fairly slow bullet, most of those deer "..hit a couple or 3 times..." were missed by several feet. Most people have no idea how far in front of a running deer they have to shoot to hit it, especially with a bullet that starts under 2000 fps and slows down fast.
I wonder how many deer have been taken with the 22
I don't, but have thought about using my old 351 Win SL, iirc the 180gr Hawk bullet runs around 1800 fps over 4227 powder, may work on a close lung hit.
My ex wife's family had one of those that had been floating around their family since about 1910...Came from Grandpa whoever, who worked as a security guard at Sandstone Prison.. they had to buy their own gun in those days, and that was what they were instructed to purchase...
but it had been putting down deer in the MN northwoods from 1910 thru the early to mid 1980s...
ammo was hard to find, no one hand loaded...and by that time the ammo they had was pretty crusty and corroded looking..
but it worked well at 100 yds or under...worked as well as one brother in law who used a Marlin lever action in 357 Mag each year with good results...
I am reading With the Old Breed by Eugene Sledge. He was a mortar man in the Marines in the horrible, grim fighting on Peleliu.
The mortar guys all carried the 1911 Colt, but somehow Sledge got his hands on an M1 Carbine, which he carried along with the pistol. The Marines loved the little rifle and killed a lot of Japs with it.
They would pass the carbine around depending on the situation. I just read where, it was about 2 am with pale moonlight. Sledge's buddy asked to borrow the carbine.
He spotted a Jap sneaking in from the ocean, the water was just about 3 feet deep, the Jap was 30 yards out to sea. Sledge's buddy fired twice and killed the Nip, and said "Thanks buddy" and handed the rifle back to Sledge.
I used a 30 carbine though from a Ruger Blackhawk on a couple of deer. The soft nose Remington load did not expand much but it penetrated well. I would not use the Blackhawk again for deer but it worked for me twice.
I just picked up one that I was gonna tote some for back-up this year. Will be interesting...
Accurate pistol but the muzzle blast was real impressive. an ear piercing sound worse than a 357.
... an official number of 6,121,309 of them were produced from July 1942 – August 1945 for the US military. That number far exceeds any other firearm produced for military use in WWII.
Why? Because many actual combat troops preferred it over the M1 Garand.
1. All of those heaps of carbines were ordered, and most were delivered, before US ground troops had used them in combat to any meaningful degree.
2. Actual troops preferred it to the Garand because 95% of their job was something other than rifleman, and usually behind the lines at that, and the Carbine was easy to carry around.
3. In any case nobody gave a damn what they preferred, conscripts carried what they were issued. They ate food you wouldn't feed your dog and wore cotton jackets in the rain too.
I didn't know any of that.........
For example, why were they the one most preferred rifle for airborne troops is few used them, and "because 95% of their job was something other than rifleman, and usually behind the lines at that"?
Accurate pistol but the muzzle blast was real impressive. an ear piercing sound worse than a 357.
Far worse... brutal, is not too strong a term!
Accurate pistol but the muzzle blast was real impressive. an ear piercing sound worse than a 357.
Far worse... brutal, is not too strong a term!
Imagine firing a REAL handgun, using more powder, bigger bullets, and higher pressure!!!!
Scary, right??
Accurate pistol but the muzzle blast was real impressive. an ear piercing sound worse than a 357.
Far worse... brutal, is not too strong a term!
Imagine firing a REAL handgun, using more powder, bigger bullets, and higher pressure!!!!
Scary, right??
It really has nothing to do with pressure and the amount of powder. Even the 32-20 with heavy loads has an ear-piercing report. Ol' Elmer Keith even mentioned this in SIXGUNS.
Accurate pistol but the muzzle blast was real impressive. an ear piercing sound worse than a 357.
Far worse... brutal, is not too strong a term!
Imagine firing a REAL handgun, using more powder, bigger bullets, and higher pressure!!!!
Scary, right??
It really has nothing to do with pressure and the amount of powder. Even the 32-20 with heavy loads has an ear-piercing report. Ol' Elmer Keith even mentioned this in SIXGUNS.
Well gosh, if Elmer said it...again, imagine if it was a REAL handgun, with more powder, bigger bullets, and higher pressure.
Loud? Laffin’...
You ain’t heard loud until you have minigun muzzle a couple or three feet from your knee. Rattles your guts it does. And kills stuff. Just like a M1 carbine.
Just saying the 30 carbine out of a pistol has a sort of especially ear piercing crack. My reloads used IMR 4227 and just about any 110 gr. SP or HP I could find. Shot a lot of Speer Plinkers. That was the first gun that when I carried it I had ear plugs ready. To me out of a 4" barreled pistol the 22 Rimfire magnum has an uncomfortable muzzle blast. I do agree out of an accurate rifle and good shooting 100 yards would be a possibility. Neither of the two aftermarket M1 Carbines I owned would shoot under 4" at 100 yards.
Nor would my own with the only factory ammo I’ve tried. Hand loads are quite a different story.
I had a friend in college that hunted with one that had a folding stock. He killed allot of deer out to 80yds with it and never lost a deer. He was deadly accurate with it. I wouldn't use one but it made me want a ruger 44 carbine.
I asked a gfp guy about it one time, he said not legal in SD. I asked why, he said the loads weren't lethal enough and most cheap assed hunters would just get mil ball surplus and figure well enough. Mb
Ruger 77/44 is one of my deer eradication tools. 300 gr paper patched lead...case closed.
Just saying the 30 carbine out of a pistol has a sort of especially ear piercing crack. My reloads used IMR 4227 and just about any 110 gr. SP or HP I could find. Shot a lot of Speer Plinkers. That was the first gun that when I carried it I had ear plugs ready. To me out of a 4" barreled pistol the 22 Rimfire magnum has an uncomfortable muzzle blast. I do agree out of an accurate rifle and good shooting 100 yards would be a possibility. Neither of the two aftermarket M1 Carbines I owned would shoot under 4" at 100 yards.
I would agree. I have a.30 Carbine Blackhawk. It’s a very accurate revolver, but the noise is unreal. It’s all out of proportion to what you’d expect looking at the cartridge.
Nor would my own with the only factory ammo I’ve tried. Hand loads are quite a different story.
I liked the little carbines, plenty handy. I never shot reloads in them just factory and the Ruger only shot one box of factory ammo through it, a box of Remington soft noses. The Ruger was a pretty accurate pistol. With reloads and my then younger good eyes I could consistently hit Beer cans at a hundred yards, neither of the carbines I had would do that.
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