Little background , 84yo mom is in a nursing home she's got a little bit of dementia she's on hospice as of about about 6 months ago... just talked to her on Friday with my brother
and she was all happy good to go imo . Saturday morning between breakfast and a shower she has a stroke ...right side ain't working can't talk any more can't hold utensils to feed herself and because she's on hospice the doctors won't give her a tube.
My Brother Talks to her by having her blink her eye ASKED her if she wanted to go to the hospital...yes/ blink... when she goes there (like I stated above ) the doctor said while she's on hospice why bother. Thing is they put her on hospice because she had a urinary tract infection back in September and once he got rid of that she was back to her happy normal self now she has this hospice thing hanging over head . So us last three brothers are deciding what to do ...she can't feed herself if we get her hooked up on a tube the quality of life is gone , if we don't hook her up on a tube are we starveingd Mom to death you guys had to have been in similar situation ...what did you guys do... what are we to do ...dam..

I can and will offer prayers for all of you....can’t offer anything beyond that! memtb

I watched my mother care for my grandmother for 30 years.

Eventually ending in a nursing home.....where she was for 4! years.


UTI after UTI.


Eventually it was time to stop treating the UTI. Quality of life was long gone....and wasn't coming back.


My mother had to let her go.....for grandmother's sake.

Well....Grandma was done fighting too.

Prayer sent. Not sure what to recommend.

You're asking an internet forum?

I feel for you, but this is a decision of your conscience, and how you will honor your mother.

We all die. Maybe it is her time. I've dealt enough with death to know that we honor people when we let them choose their time to go. Sometimes, people need a bit of help to get past their own fears, Whether for their own death, or for the death of a loved one.

My father degraded with Alzheimer's for several years, eventually getting quite difficult to manage, as he was unable to feed himself, would schit everywhere, and then got violent. My step mother, who had taken care of him, finally was at the end of her rope. My two brothers and I convinced her to take a break, and put him in a home for a couple months. We all knew what the outcome would be. We all knew it was his time to go, but he couldn't leave his wife for some reason. We each did some serious soul-searching before recommending that course. He was in the home for four weeks when he passed. We did the thing that felt right to us. Much of the time, life (and death) don't look pretty. That doesn't mean we haven't done the right thing. Life is just messy.

Sorry. BTDT.
Probably every situation is different, I tried to do what my mom would have wanted. She was helpful in that she wrote down a lot of her wishes as far as when to stop trying.
Still a painful decision.
Prayers for you all.

We made this exact decision with my Dad in 2019. Ask your Dr if the affects of this stroke will grow. That's what happened with Dad. We chose to stop the feeding. It is not pleasant in our hearts but it was the right choice for us. Dad was sick and tired of being sick. God bless you in this difficult time. Posted is a picture of Mom and Dad saying goodbye in the last of the time when Dad could speak somewhat clearly. Sweet moment in the bitterest of times.

She says she wants to go be with her mother when she's feeling down .... she did sign some paperwork long time ago saying she did not want to be resuscitated but this isn't a heart attack etc ....it seems that me we're going to starve to death ....is this what's happening, I don't know.

darn......

Have YOU seen the wording of the advance directive she filled out?

I took care of mom for a lot of years. The time came where it wasnt safe. Nursing home for just over a year when I got a call on a Monday morning. Mother passed in her sleep. I posted this so you will know I understand. All anyone can do is face the trials of the day and tough it out as best they can. You will wish you had been more able, you will think maybe you didnt try hard enough, maybe wish you had been smarter. Doubt will not help just do the best you can.

Hospics believes when one is dying, there is no hunger so they stop feeding.

Prayers sent! I had two parents in nursing home, Dad died of MDS cancer in February, he went quick and knew it. Mom has dementia and stopped eating and is down to 100 lbs., hospice has been called. Tough choice either way. God bless your Mom.

I grieve for you and your family.

My Mother asked me to signup to be her Advocate when she realized she had Alzheimers. Knew Pop was incapable of letting her go when it was time. She also knew the Dr. son was a dick and the Lawyer son a prick, the oldest daughter a bleeding heart liberal who would not let her go for different reasons than Pop.

I made the decision to move her to a "Memory Care" facility when Pop could not longer really care for her, and, he was tied too much to the house to live any kind of a life himself. (that was a really big ruckus when I "took" her to the facility, but I had the legal papers to do so) Price of agreeing to be an adult...

She did ok for a year, she as in a place I could visit every day from my work whilst I was in town and the wife could pop in and check when I had to travel. (showing up at all hours with no discernible schedule tends to keep a facility honest about how they treat someone who can't really communicate how they are being treated)

About 18 months in she broke a hip, Mr. No Bedside Manner was all for drugging her up and just letting her die, never heard from the Lawyer bud, too busy I guess. I talked to the surgeon and asked him what would he do if it was his mother, and he said he would fix the hip so they could keep her clean without major pain, so that is what I did. She developed
c-dif about a month in to the rehab. Hardest thing I ever did was say no to antibiotics, but had she known what she had become she would have pulled the plug on that herself. A few days later I closed her eyes when she took that last ragged breath, free from pain.

I never told the siblings about my decision, only the wife knows how hard that was. Interestingly a year later to the week she had to take a call from a ward across the State whey the carried her WWII Veteran Father who had developed Dementia, and they could no longer keep him at the Vet's home in Humboldt. They perforated his colon doing a rectal pick and the foreign Dr. wanted to send him for surgery to repair the massive bleeding they caused and she said no, let him go. That was a very hard thing, but he had no idea who or where he was anymore, and I still want to beat the ass of the guy on the phone who told her she killed her Father...

Only you know when her quality of life means fighting to keep her here...and I woke up in a cold sweat for a while over my decision, but the point of her having me sign up was she knew I would do what was best for her.

This isn't an answer but...hospice...for six months? Hospice is usually end-of-life. Sometimes people get out of it. Seems to me that she should survive this. If you think she'll have quality of life, number one I wouldn't have her in Hospice.

My dad passed about 3 months ago after long fights with broken hips, dementia, heart problems, etc. We were lucky, as he went from being pretty good to being dead in about 2 weeks, and we didn't have to face the types of issues you're going through. The toughest thing was getting the call from the nursing home that we had suddenly gone from being fine to being at end of life. They had taken him off antibiotics and instead gave him morphine, and I flipped out on them for doing that. I wanted to give him every chance in the world to fight back, but in the end he died two days later even with the resumption of antibiotics.

When it's time, the person knows and you shouldn't try to change the course of nature.

Prayers sent Northward. God bless Mom.

I have watched doctors administer a big ole shot of opiates for the "pain".

It ended the pain alright.


Look back now....it was a quick merciful end. Not like the alternative.

I am totally pissed for your Mom and I don't even know her. Most of those hospice businesses have expiration dates for the patients. Here's a protocol of what I often see.......
1. (Deleted)

Never mind. I shouldn't talk when I'm angry.

Atvalaska,

I'm not mad at you. I just sympathize with your Mom.
I hate hospices and think that many if them are insurance sponges that murder helpless victims.
I would not be the least bit surprised if you are not right. You are her boy. I would get hold of EVERY unredacted medical record AND FIRE THE DOCTOR if I were you.....STAT!
I would take CONTROL of her care, because apparently you are THE one who cares and make sure that she gets fluids and proper nurishment Monday morning IF it was me. Do what you think best. I don't know anything about the situation other than what you said and it is none of my business, nor my responsibility.
It sounds like you are sincerely concerned by reaching out to us strangers, so I am rooting for you and your Mom.

Prayerfully yours,

Happy Camper

You should get a job as a hospice nurse.

Nice toggle dirt bag.

The way hospice works around here, they won’t even put people in hospice unless the doctors have a reasonable belief that the person will pass within 6 months, and they only do palliative care. If you go to the hospital to prolong life, they will kick you out. If it turns out that your mother had a curable medical condition from which she recovered, it may have turned out that she should not have been in hospice even if the doctors objectively thought that she met the criteria at the time.

With that said, starving someone to death by not inserting a feeding tube sounds very harsh and inhumane. Nutrition is a basic need whether a person is sick or perfectly healthy. Providing food is different than artificially breathing for someone or pumping their blood or fighting an infection with medication. I don’t really know much about medical ethics, but I see a distinction.

You are in a tough situation, and I hope that you can come to a wise decision and be at peace with it.

ATVAK my mom is in hospice right now. She lived in my house for over 15 years. Started having issues associated with dementia probably started around 79. After she hit 81 she would get in trouble calls from the police pick her up at the hospital. She got on a train to visit friends in MA. Got picked up in New Jersey dropped off at the hospital drove 300 miles to pick her up bring her home. Did the same thing a year later this time she made it to MA landed in Mass General Allen Cognitive tests etc discharged to nursing lasted a little over 3 years in there hated it the whole time. They said were taking care of your mom. She was better off at the house IMO not to the rest of my siblings though.

Long story short its hard watching them go down hill. You have to ask yourself are they living for us or themselves? I knew what the prognosis was when I picked her up in New Jersey 3 years ago I told her then I thought she was getting there and eventually they would'nt release her to my care. Nobody can take your freedom faster than a MA liberal.

My prayers are with you brother. Hospitals have protocols and they'll pretty much make decisions for you like discharge to hospice. Welcome to the affordable care act hospitals are not only doctors and nurses anymore they call lawyers and lobbyists health care professionals now.

At this point I'm just hoping mommy goes home soon you have to do all you can for them while they're walking amongst us.

God bless y'all

Anyone that has watched people die in misery will agree with you.

Parters for your mom and family. I know it’s a tough situation. My aunt had a stroke in May, and wasn’t found for 12 hours after her work called my cousin to tell him his mom didn’t show for her shift. She’s been in a nursing home since 2 weeks after the stoke. Kind of the same deal as you described. She can no longer talk and no longer has use of her right side.

Basically had the same thing happen with my dad couple years back. He, a dementia patient developed an infection. Heard the same Hospice crap. Told them I wouldn't treat a dog thataway and would not sit back and watch it happen to Dad.. Someone listened and the infection was treated and all went back to whatever normal was.

Miss my Dad.

g

Wife's dad had a pretty serious stroke in his mid 70s. He had a formal 'Do Not Resuscitate' order. Neurosurgeon told us 'what you see now is the best he's ever going to get and from here on your dad is only going to get worse'.

Wife moved him from hospital to a local nursing home and stayed with her dad every day from early morning to bedtime at night hand feeding him herself and making sure he was properly cared for, medicated and kept clean. This went on for around six months until when he went on Hospice and we moved him to a spare bedroom in our home until he passed not long after.

Her dad could swallow soft food and liquids on his own but took more time to eat than short handed nursing home staff had for the number of patients they had to feed and care for in the allotted time, plus the stroke left him with no feeling on one side of his face so he could possibly choke on any unswallowed food still on the paralyzed side.

Sometimes you just have to let go. I have been there. Three times. It ain’t easy.

Wow, a lot of u were... are in the same pickle I am , they got her on Motriien as the nurses think she's in pain ,my brothers were there and agree. The doctor is coming to make his rounds Monday morning..we'll see what that gets her...thanks men for all the give a dam....

family friend is on hospice at her home now, UTI, diagnosed as not treatable except with IV antibiotics. The hospice folks can't do that, would have to go to a facility, that would end hospice and we'd have to figure a way to pay for it as she's broke. Her retirement pays for her bills and some home care folks. My family members stay with her a lot, check on her daily when not staying there to make sure the hospice folks are doing their jobs.

atvalaska, best wishes on a decent outcome. My mother was an Alzheimer patient, in a care facility for +/- 10 years. Ambulatory for most of that time, not so much the last year or so. Some heart issues, UTIs, and maybe a mini-stroke or two as I recall. Used up every dollar of my dad's retirement and the proceeds from selling the family house though, to keep her thee that long. I hope you folks find a solution, it's always tough.

My greatest regret is that I caused my mother to live beyond the days that she had true quality of life. One feels obligated to try everything and that is the problem.

There is no easy answer, best wishes to all so afflicted.


mike r

I’ll pray for all of you

Prayers sent for your mother.
Paul B.

Toughest decision in my life so far this last August was making the decision to stop treatment and let Dad go. Whatever you decide will be of no comfort to you it all comes down to what's best for those you love. Take care and know your not alone, good group of real men here to lend moral support as they did me in my time of need.

You can take her off hospice. It is not a permanent designation.

WTF is wrong with you? Moron.

Atvalaska: I pray for you and for your mothers transition from this life to the next and that she be calm and as pain free as possible!
Have gone through the loss of four beloved parents and parents in law now and it is HARD!
It is also a fact of life that, there is, an end to life.
What ever decision you and your brothers make IS the right one!
Be strong.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Kolofardos,

Right after Atvalaska reaches out for help or encouragement, this is what jim conman says,

"I watched my mother care for my grandmother for 30 years. Eventually ending in a nursing home.....where she was for 4! years. UTI after UTI.
Eventually it was time to stop treating the UTI. Quality of life was long gone....and wasn't coming back.
My mother had to let her go....."

Maybe I should have suggested that a hospice chaplain or social worker would be a better career move instead.

Do you suggest that Atvalaska should just put his Mom down too?
Perhaps my observations in nursing homes of incontinent folks left in dirty diapers for days with bed sores, dehydration, and pumped full of numerous drugs is not the norm. UTIs are common in that scenario for certain. Kidney, liver failure and strokes are also common with that kind of "care."
Many nursing homes I've seen"care" for people like that.
From what I read Atvalaska really cares about his mom and I empathize with him and his mom, NOT the ever encouraging Conman.

19352012: Thank you for sharing that moment and photo with me (us).
Having just gone through similar situations with my parents and my wifes parents I sincerely commiserate with you and your loved ones.
Your father, there, looked so healthy body wise I am just saddened he did not live longer.
It reminds me again of the Roman Emperors (Marcus Aurelius - and later by Steve Jobs!) often quoted utterance "live every day as if it were your last, because someday you will surely be right"!
Thank you again for sharing that.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Prayers sent.

So sorry for what you are going through. Prayers sent, may you find an answer to your situation

well the doctor at the hospital said its time ...seems she signed some papers years back/ before she was headed to the nursing home>>> no feeding tube was to be used. I guess that settles that. Both my brothers were there at the time when she did this (((I was a course up here out of sight out of mind))).. looks like they're taking her back to the nursing home and then we wait this ain't good ....she can't swallow, cant operate tongue they got her on morphine.... dam....love u mom ...

Damn tough deal.


Seems cruel.....but its really not....in the long run.

My prayers for you all. 🙏

Prayers sent for you and yours.it s a tough,tough thing.

Atvalaska,

It's none of my business who the medical power of attorney is, etc. Let me just throw this out as a layman who went through this.

Some doctors and/or hospitals take control of situations that really aren't their right to do so ethically if not legally, (maybe a lawyer in your area can speak to that.). They are used to 98% taking their advice and trusting them in these matters. Although some here surely disagree, and would rather the patient's directive be the all deciding factor.....That said, when I read some of these, the directives, or legal docs that spell these things out are usually vague and the average person has no idea what they are reading.

For instance, for ease of discussion, would you consider an infant baby, who feeds on mothers milk, to consider special medical treatment and care to have that milk? What if the child was separated from water/nurishment (milk), sedated and parents told by a hospital that it would not be in that child's best interest due to the possibility that it might die from ...(fill in the blank) and would maybe not recover fully from lets say high fever, thus ending up with brain damage.... perhaps.

Keep in mind that some states have politicians with no moral compass pass legislation that does this exact thing to adults in need of basic human needs like water, nurishment, etc. Some states consider food and water in the same definition as intubation. IF she were my Mom, I would want to read the records and that document. Then decide based on your mom and your morals, disregarding hospital and they re staff policies.
Any brothers/sisters will need leadership from you. Someone who cares most and has ethics (a moral compass), as it sounds that you do, should lead as is fitting. Whatever details that entails is your right to know. Then seek help/direction from a trusted spiritual leader like your pastor if you want. I've had a very moral good friend as a hospital social worker that I knew for years, but must say that the others I've talked with were just mouth pieces for the hospital admin.

My dad was in this condition comatose on more than one occasion and I had to fight my family and his worthless doctor on this. I hired a physician that did things my way (the only one besides the Lord who actually cared). He was a month like that, but pulled through. He got some HOME assistance from the only family member who fought to keep him out of the nursing home. He recovered and ended up healthier, happier, off the harmful meds and lived the best years of his life after that.

I don't offer false hope, just the realistic perspective that lots of people recover from strokes and sometimes even it's the sedation that keeps patients from swallowing or awaking.
I've witnessed speaking patients that could shake my hand and hold conversations, yet were not allowed so much as a sip of water because of hospital policy.
I'd ask why and nurses would say,
Excuses like, "oh, they are (at risk) of choking."
I ask, if it's that much a risk, then why the hell doesn't he/she have an IV ???"

"Oh, um that's a medical directive of no resuscitation/special medical devices..."

Those staff members who kill people that way are like .......
You get the idea.
Even if there's a "slim chance", and the doctors have No idea, The patients have zero chance of recovery if they are dehydrated to death.

I will pray for your strength and God's direction in this as well as your Mom.

I think the problem may not be dying, but starving her.
Dayom. Prayers sent.

Sometimes one needs to vent.

I am amazed at how many folks have gone thru the same type of ordeal on this forum.

Sometimes it helps.

I'm sorry you and your family have to go through this. praying for you.

It depends on the hospice and how they operate. I hate to see a terminal patient dehydrate or starve. If fluids make them feel better why Is that bad. Don’t see it as prolonging the inevitable, just making someone more comfortable.

Some hospice people seem like death Nazi’s. I don’t like that or them. If you feel like that’s what’s happening, step in and go another direction. End of life is never easy. But there are ways to take care of it, ways not to.

Go with the peace and your gut.

DF

I've seen that - Dad actually put himself in a nursing home, after his second stroke.
He couldn't drive himself to and from meals in town (~ 3 miles), and was too ornery to keep help in the house.
He was in the home for 3 years, got pretty decent care, my siblings and I tried to do the "Raton Jailbreak" whenever possible.
We'd take him to a restaurant for some decent food, then either up to the ranch, or for a drive around the countryside - whichever he preferred.
His 4th stroke killed him. All my siblings (6) and I agree that he died at a good time - just before the Covid disrupted everything.
He'd have been worse than a bear locked in a cage, if no one could visit, or break him out.
Death is a sad deal, but it visits us all.

I just went through this last month with my mom. Once she couldn't eat or drink on her own, she passed in her sleep about a week later. While she was still somewhat lucid, I had the chance to tell her that I loved her and that she had been a good mom and that I would miss her and that I would be OK. That's all your mom wants to hear right now - tell her if you can.

I'll add too that I thought I knew what so-called 'quality of life' meant but, after watching my wife's dad during his last days, I learned that it may not mean the same for everyone.

In his last few weeks my wife's dad would sleep all but a very few hours.

When he did wake up he would happily tell of having been visiting with long deceased family members and old friends. They, including himself, were all young, healthy and happy in these 'visits'. He'd recount names of who all was there, things said and done - some funny, etc.

Dreams or true spiritual visits I can't say, but I do believe they were some of his happiest, most peaceful moments, both after as well as before the debilitating stroke that finally took him.

Kathleen Blanco, former LA governor, had eye cancer that spread to her brain.

As she lay in a coma, someone had the idea of giving her therapeutic marijuana. She reportedly perked up, started eating, was able to converse with family, died peacefully a few days later.

I know some hospice doctors use therapeutic MJ for their terminal patients. In some cases it seems to help, may not be for everyone.

Just a thought.

DF

My mom also talked to some of her siblings during her final days, some of them who died many years ago. She also talked to her mom. It was kind of weird. Makes you wonder what goes on in someone's mind as they are fading away.

You've got a big heart Jaguar tx..... ethics too.

Jaguartx,

If in Atv's shoes, I would want someone with ethics in my court to inform me of options and notify the institution of orders if any needed. After talking to a friend who was a separate hospital head administrator, he told me that I needed a physician like that when facing a similar situation. The hospitalized family member was unable to speak for himself, his VA "Dr could care less and did. It was difficult scrambling to find a physician to help at that point. It was a battle with the hospital when I went to move him out to a better facility.

Praying for your Mom and you. Sorry you have to go through this.

The prayers must have worked...late last week some employees walked by her room and said Hi...she said HI back and waved at them ...with her right arm !!! Im headed back there in a couple weeks to see her....

Praise God. Glad she's doing well.

Great News!

That's great news!

ATV,

Hallelujah! That's awesome!
God is good!



Just as a refresher, please go back and read my posts, because God healed her for a purpose. First of all of course we know that He deserves ALL of the credit and not hospice as you well said. Second thing that comes to my mind is that in order to maintain her health, she will require care from those who truly do.
I'll leave it right there.

Blessings to you you both,

1Happy Camper

My father in law had pancreatic cancer. This was how his last few minutes on earth were ended. In retrospect, it was the right thing to do. He was ready to go and it was too painful to live. My mother in law was the one who gave the final OK. If she can do it, if she would do it, it had to be the right thing. She is fast approaching her last days. My bet is she would do the same if it came down to it.

kwg