We usually go for the battle anniversary because it falls on my wife’s birthday.
It was least people I ever saw. Sad it looked dead. Many businesses were closed permanently. Sad and really shocking.
Only been there once. Lot's of history. Informative to drive and follow the battle as it unfolded.
I hope many of the monuments erected to remember the Confederate soldiers haven't been removed.
We usually go for the battle anniversary because it falls on my wife’s birthday.
It was least people I ever saw. Sad it looked dead. Many businesses were closed permanently. Sad and really shocking.
Snowflakes don't even know it exists.
Gay flags were popular in some businesses.
Put money in a meter and it expired, 40 dollar ticket.
Wow.
That's about 4 x the max I'd expect.
Burgers and beer lunch cost 100 bucks with the ticket.
We usually go in august for peaches and a couple days. Really thinking someplace else. Bedford also has good peaches.
We visited two weeks ago.
We usually spend a couple days every summer, but last year they had most things shut down because of the scamdemic, so we skipped it.
The trip kinda sprang on me, and I didn’t have time to hunt my books up, and I was pretty miserable with a pinched nerve in my back. Between not having my guides and being crippled up, I just wasn’t firing on all my cylinders. I love to walk around, and we usually go on a ghost walk, but it killed me trying to walk. I more or less just drove around and told her the stories off the top of my head. I’m evidently rubbing off on her, because she loves the place too!
Actually, I thought the town itself seemed sorta crowded, and as usual, Little Round Top & Devil’s Den was lousy with people.
General Pickett’s Buffet was closed temporarily, The Avenue Restaurant is now Mia’s House of Noodles, and a large number of people have no clue how to go through a traffic circle!
For crying out loud, they were two and three cars wide! They scared me, and I used to race on dirt tracks!
Hopefully, we’ll be able to hit it again once the crowds die down and the weather is cooler. Unfortunately this trip wasn’t up to snuff.
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Like I said, there’s a couple books that I try to take on every visit.
Stories of Men and Monuments . A handy tool full of information and stories about all the Monuments placed on the Battlefield.
Silent Sentinels . If you’re a gun nut like me, you’ll love this book/guide to the artillery guns that populate the field.
I bet you a coffee or a beer that they’ll make the next visit better.
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Awesome place to see-- hope they don't screw it up
I don't live too far away so I go there quite a bit. I do try to avoid July 1, 2, and 3 though
On my list of things to see. When I was a kid my grandmothers cousin lived just up the road and was in his 90s. Still sharp and I loved listening to his stories about the old days. Didn't find out until a few years after he died that his dad was in Picketts charge. Would have loved to have gotten a 2nd hand account
We usually go for the battle anniversary because it falls on my wife’s birthday.
It was least people I ever saw. Sad it looked dead. Many businesses were closed permanently. Sad and really shocking.
Snowflakes don't even know it exists.
If the South would have won there, the “Woke” snowflake crowd would be calling for it to be bulldozed, nowadays.
Guess I’ll never make it back to that part of the country. I regret not going there when I was close. Lost some family members there.
On my list of things to see. When I was a kid my grandmothers cousin lived just up the road and was in his 90s. Still sharp and I loved listening to his stories about the old days. Didn't find out until a few years after he died that his dad was in Picketts charge. Would have loved to have gotten a 2nd hand account
On my list of things to see. When I was a kid my grandmothers cousin lived just up the road and was in his 90s. Still sharp and I loved listening to his stories about the old days. Didn't find out until a few years after he died that his dad was in Picketts charge. Would have loved to have gotten a 2nd hand account
That would have been cool. My paternal Grandmother’s Grandfather was there. Lost his leg there. She said he never spoke of it.
2 of my great great grandfathers were there july 3 19th va infantry Garnett’s brigade Pickett’s charge both made it back some how they can tear down all the statues they want to but if either of them hadn’t made it back across that field I wouldn’t be here today and that I am proud of ironically they both had the same first and middle name William Henry
On my list of things to see. When I was a kid my grandmothers cousin lived just up the road and was in his 90s. Still sharp and I loved listening to his stories about the old days. Didn't find out until a few years after he died that his dad was in Picketts charge. Would have loved to have gotten a 2nd hand account
That would have been cool. My paternal Grandmother’s Grandfather was there. Lost his leg there. She said he never spoke of it.
I imagine most didn't talk about it. I knew grandpa was in the pacific in wwii but he never talked about battles, just guys he knew and the camaraderie. Year a two ago my son had to do a school report on a veteran so we researched his ship and found out it was sunk and they spent several days in life boats. Pawpaw never mentioned that
Only been there once. Lot's of history. Informative to drive and follow the battle as it unfolded.
I hope many of the monuments erected to remember the Confederate soldiers haven't been removed.
If the woke crowd goes after the battlefield memorials that will be a real travesty.
I have a lot of great memories wondering Gettysburg and Antietam. I liked wondering Antietam a bit more. So many miles spent there!
Being from the west I didnt have much exposure to the Civil war and all its history. Was in WV on a business trip and took wife along, that was about 15 years ago. We went up and visited Gettysburg and it was really impressive. Also on one of my business trips visited DC and all the memorials. Arlington was really a sobering visit to see graves as far as you could see in any direction.
On my list of things to see. When I was a kid my grandmothers cousin lived just up the road and was in his 90s. Still sharp and I loved listening to his stories about the old days. Didn't find out until a few years after he died that his dad was in Picketts charge. Would have loved to have gotten a 2nd hand account
That would have been cool. My paternal Grandmother’s Grandfather was there. Lost his leg there. She said he never spoke of it.
I imagine most didn't talk about it. I knew grandpa was in the pacific in wwii but he never talked about battles, just guys he knew and the camaraderie. Year a two ago my son had to do a school report on a veteran so we researched his ship and found out it was sunk and they spent several days in life boats. Pawpaw never mentioned that
The one I mentioned above lost two older brothers there.
One of my Grandfather’s hit the Beach at Omaha. Never mentioned it once.
I have been there several times. I would go back again if I were close. My trips to Gettysburg coincided with my trips to Ft. Indian Town Gap. Another place with a more recent history.
kwg
On my list of things to see. When I was a kid my grandmothers cousin lived just up the road and was in his 90s. Still sharp and I loved listening to his stories about the old days. Didn't find out until a few years after he died that his dad was in Picketts charge. Would have loved to have gotten a 2nd hand account
That would have been cool. My paternal Grandmother’s Grandfather was there. Lost his leg there. She said he never spoke of it.
I imagine most didn't talk about it. I knew grandpa was in the pacific in wwii but he never talked about battles, just guys he knew and the camaraderie. Year a two ago my son had to do a school report on a veteran so we researched his ship and found out it was sunk and they spent several days in life boats. Pawpaw never mentioned that
The one I mentioned above lost two older brothers there.
One of my Grandfather’s hit the Beach at Omaha. Never mentioned it once.
Had to have been a hell of a thing and most of them were just kids in their late teens early 20s
Was there last in 2018. Place was packed. A local guy said it used to be just the Summer, but lately it was three out of four seasons. The wife, who’s Chinese, couldn’t believe all the Chinese tourists. We did Little Round Top, The Virginia Monument, the PA Monument where I have family, the Tower, and the covered bridge on Marsh Creek. I used to park there and walk into the back side of my friend’s farm to hunt back in the 80s and early 90s. That creek split his farm into two. At the beginning of the movie Gettysburg, the scout Harrison rides through Marsh Creek. That fording spot is where we used to cross in warm weather, and right above where my brother and I overturned in a canoe one November. I had a deer stand in the woods the movie used at the start of Pickett’s charge.
Never realized The Gap was as big a deal as it is.
Googled after your comment.
I always thought it was just a training place for Pa Guard.
What if Jackson had been there instead of Ewell on day 1
What if Jackson had been there instead of Ewell on day 1
Or what if Lee had listened to Longstreet and made the Feds attack an entrenched position
Civil War Artillery At Gettysburg . Another one that’s well worthwhile if you’re interested in Arty. I have this one on my nook. It gets into the nuts and bolts of the types of guns, and the gunners who served in the batteries.
To be honest, I don’t do much of the tourist type stuff. Anyplace I go on the Battlefield is special for me. I can close my eyes and hear the rattle of musketry and the thunder of the guns. I can smell the smoke and the sweat and the blood. I can see the gunners stuffing shot in the barrel and the infantry grappling with bayonets and clubbed muskets. Wifey has said that I may have died there. As Shelby Foote said, “the ground talks to you”.
Penny’s pretty new to it, I know the stories, I have the passion for the history, but I’m not polished enough for being a guide. The good ones can bring the story alive.
A couple years ago they had started a new Ranger Program called (I believe) The Face of The Battle. I guess maybe the damn Covid killed it, but it really should be brought back. You’d meet the Ranger at a certain spot at a certain time. They’d have a photo of a soldier, tell you things about him, where he was from, and then relate his experience of the battle. What he saw and felt. It put the thing on a very personal level.
They used to have a “Living History where re-enactors camped on the field and demonstrated weapons and tactics, and camp life. I missed it as well.
I sure hope these programs are not lost for good. It’d be a real shame if a damn bug no deadlier than the flu caused this to be lost as well.
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What if Jackson had been there instead of Ewell on day 1
Totally different outcome. Ewell was hesitant and timid. Jackson would've put his foot on the Federals throat and kept it there. He would've pushed them right out of Gettysburg
What if Jackson had been there instead of Ewell on day 1
Not trying to sound like a dick, but that statement shows that the fellow making it hasn’t studied the tactical situation leading to the battle.
Stonewall would not have hesitated taking Cemetery Hill or Culp’s Hill on 1 July.
But without either bill, the federal line would have been untenable. Southern artillery on either of those hills or Little Round Top could have driven away the Union Army.
But General Meade had already prepared for that possibility by laying out a defensive position at a place called Pipe’s Creek, 12 miles or so southeast of Gettysburg.
He actually planned the battle there. Only Hancock’s study of the terrain at Gettysburg and hisassurance that those positions could be held, changed Meade’s mind.
Lee would have held the town, but the Union Army would still be between him and Baltimore & Washington. He was still in enemy territory with no easy objective and damn little hope of resupply of the ammunition spent taking those now useless Hill’s.
Destruction of the opposing army was the only objective worthwhile for Lee. Maybe following Pete’s advice would have cut off Meade’s line of supply and communication, but taking the hils wouldn’t.
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What if Jackson had been there instead of Ewell on day 1
Or what if Lee had listened to Longstreet and made the Feds attack an entrenched position
Had Lee been able to get his Army between the Yankees and Washington or Baltimore, Meade would have been under political pressure to attack. That should have been Lee’s primary objective.
But truthfully, with no supply lines for food, he was forced to attack or keep moving. His army would starve by being stationary.
Meade was aware of this, but would Lincoln and the northern government allow him to wait Lee out?
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What if Jackson had been there instead of Ewell on day 1
Totally different outcome. Ewell was hesitant and timid. Jackson would've put his foot on the Federals throat and kept it there. He would've pushed them right out of Gettysburg
Maybe. A number of Historians have debated that very topic, IIRC the consensus being that the Army of Northern Virginia weren’t as potentially able, nor the Army of the Potomac potentially that vulnerable at the end of Day 1.
Here’s another take suggesting that just as the politically incorrect Longstreet was unfairly blamed for the outcome on Day 3, so an already deceased Dick Ewell made a convenient post-war scapegoat...
.
http://emergingcivilwar.com/2011/10...heres-no-point-in-refighting-gettysburg/Who’s responsible for the defeat at Gettysburg?
Lee, of course, on several levels. I do believe that worthy gentleman agreed with that analysis.
Interesting reading there, Mike. Thanks for posting it.
As much as I’ve been infatuated with Gettysburg, I’ve always thought that most people attach way too much importance to it. With Grant’s capture of Vicksburg, the die was already cast for the South’s defeat.
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What if Jackson had been there instead of Ewell on day 1
Or what if Lee had listened to Longstreet and made the Feds attack an entrenched position
Easier said than done when you have 70,000 men and their supply train still strung out over 25 miles, your largest body of men in close proximity to the enemy in a situation where disengaging to go around would invite a flank attack. Add to that, due to the absence or recent arrival of your cavalry, you still have no clear idea of the numbers and disposition of the considerable Union forces rushing to the battlefield at near-record pace.
Hence Lee’s
”the enemy is there and that is where I will fight him.”0n Day 2 Lee, with outside lines, puts together a complex battle plan based on faulty reconnaissance where his troops are supposed to roll up the Union left flank beginning with what he believes would be an unoccupied Little Round Top, then through a likewise believed to be unoccupied Wheatfield/Peach Orchard.
This wasn’t supposed be a simultaneous attack, but was supposed to start at the Confederate right flank, each Confederate unit waiting until the unit to their own right had gone in before continuing the attack.
Thanks to the reorganization of the Army of Northern Virginia right before the campaign, officers are working in close proximity for the first time, a few of whom despised each other. No one appears to be riding the whole Confederate line plugging gaps, coordinating attacks and clearing up confusion.
Despite all this they almost pull it off anyway, but on the Union side you have three highly competent Union Generals, Warren, Hancock and Hunt, constantly patrolling the Union line, coordinating movements and plugging gaps.
In particular Henry Hunt literally wrote the book on artillery tactics both sides were using, while on the Confederate side, Porter Alexander notwithstanding, the Confederate Artillery Commander was an elderly hack who owed his position to his friendship with Lee (I forget that’s guy’s name). Anyways thanks to that guy most of the Confederate artillery is held uselessly in reserve on Day 2.
IIRC
Harry Trueman quote, "A schoolboy's hindsight is always better than a general's foresight."
William N Pendleton was Lee’s chief of Artillery. Also, I believe, an Episcopalian preacher.
To be honest, though they had the same title, “Chief of Artillery”, the two jobs were completely different.
Pendleton was more or less a paper shuffler while Hunt’s position actually carried the authority to post guns as he felt they could do the most good. He also had the authority to call a ceasefire, as he famously did with the Second Corps Artillery during the artillery duel prior to Pickett’s Charge.
Hancock had his guns returning Rebel fire. He understood how demoralizing it is for troops to take a pounding from artillery and be unable to do anything about it. Hunt ordered the guns stopped, in order to save long range ammo for the coming Infantry assault.
In a few instances, as Hunt shut a battery down, Hancock came by minutes later ordering them to fire!
I’d love to have been a bystander to the argument between Hancock and McGivellry, as both men were legendarily adept at the use of profanity!
The opposing orders did cause a rift between Hunt and Hancock that spilled into the post war newspapers!
Pendleton’s job, by comparison had very little authority over the guns themselves. His was as a clerk requisitioning ammo and components of the batteries. To my knowledge, the only tactical decision he made at Gettysburg was to move away the 12 pounders that were supposed to move forward in support of Pickett and Pettygrew.
Pendleton is probably best remembered for his postwar attacks (along with Jubal Early) on Longstreet and the fictitious “Dawn Attack” on the second day that Longstreet postponed, lost the battle and the war for the confederacy.
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Harry Trueman quote, "A schoolboy's hindsight is always better than a general's foresight."
Very true
Day 3: Day two was a close thing, Lee and his Army of Northern Virginia was used to winning. Everybody knows how important this battle is to the Confederacy, the Rebs are pumped, ready to get it done.
Lee has two options; break off the action and lose the battle, end of the campaign, or try again to route the Union Army. Again unaware of the Union reinforcements brung in overnight.
Lee plans a full-court press all along the Union line to tie the opposition in place, sends JEB Stuart and 2,000 of his battle hardened cavalry to hit the Union line from the rear. Plans the largest artillery barrage of the war to break the Union center and then send in Pickett’s 12,000 fresh troops.
Lee customarily played his cards close to his vest, told his generals only what they needed to know, plus Lee was reportedly suffering from a bout of dysentery during the battle.
End result was of Lee’s 60,000 effectives still on hand, not counting his artillery only about 14,000 of these make any meaningful contribution on Day 3. Ironically the very volume of that artillery barrage works against them, the thick smoke on that still, humid day obscuring the fact they were shooting high, clear over the Union line. Otherwise thing might yet have turned out differently, the Confederates couldn’t catch a break that whole three days.
Again IIRC
Pendleton is probably best remembered for his postwar attacks (along with Jubal Early) on Longstreet and the fictitious “Dawn Attack” on the second day that Longstreet postponed, lost the battle and the war for the confederacy.
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Thanks for the clarification on Pendleton.
OTOH IIRC Longstreet DID delay the action on Day 2 for around three hours against Lee’s better judgement waiting for his favored (Alabama ??) shock troops to open the attack on the Union left. These men force marching about 25 miles on that hot day up the Chambersburg Pike road that morning before being thrown immediately into battle, with empty canteens.
Had the attack commenced even one hour earlier, General Warren never gets to scout out Little Round Top in the nick of time, Chaimberlaine’s Maine outfit and Strong Vincent’s NY men aren’t there yet to throw in anyway, and the first Minnesota wouldn’t be around in the nick of time to counterattack on Hancock’s order.
Hood’s men break through past the Round Tops and wreak havoc on the big Union artillery park and stores sitting on the other side, also blocking the road against the stream of incoming Union reinforcements.
Maybe the biggest “what if” in a battle full of “what if’s”.
Truth be told the order to invade Pennsylvania came from Jefferson Davis feeling the stress from the western frontiers Lees army had been whooping yankee ass and would have faired better doing so cutting off and defeating individual threats and consolidating as they did in the valley campaign
Interesting reading there, Mike. Thanks for posting it.
As much as I’ve been infatuated with Gettysburg, I’ve always thought that most people attach way too much importance to it. With Grant’s capture of Vicksburg, the die was already cast for the South’s defeat.
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I agree. I have said for years that on the fateful day of 04 July 1863, the Confederacy failed to win the war at Gettysburg and lost the war at Vicksburg. My great-grandmother's brother was with the 13th Mississippi Infantry Regt., Barksdale's Brigade, Longstreet's Corps at Gettysburg. Another great-grandmother's brother was with the 43rd Mississippi Infantry Regt. at Vicksburg. My great-grandfather was with the 40th Alabama Infantry Regt., Moore's Brigade at Vicksburg. My wife's great-gr-grandfather was with the 39th Georgia Infantry Regt. at Vicksburg. My people saw a lot of history made on that fateful day.
Truth be told the order to invade Pennsylvania came from Jefferson Davis feeling the stress from the western frontiers Lees army had been whooping yankee ass and would have faired better doing so cutting off and defeating individual threats and consolidating as they did in the valley campaign
This is true that the final approval for Lee to invade the north did come directly from Jefferson Davis. However, this was not a rash decision as there was a lot of debate whether to have Lee with the majority of his army stay in the area of northern Virginia, protecting Richmond and send Longstreet with his corps as quickly as possible to join with Johnston in Mississippi against Grant to break the siege of Vicksburg. Davis agonized over this choice. Lee was for invading the north and putting and end to the war, which, given his army's track record of defeating the Federals, was a sound proposition. The recent loss of Jackson was a serious blow to the Confederate command structure. However, it was not something that could not be overcome. Other competent officers were available. Maybe not quite as skilled as Jackson was, but this is war - Jackson is dead - you have got to move on. Lee had an army that was capable and accustomed to being victorious. The Federal Army of the Potomac's morale and confidence at that time was generally low. I can plainly see the logic in taking the offensive.
However, several in Davis' cabinet suggested holding the Federals in check north of Richmond and relieving Vicksburg, saving most of Louisiana,Texas, Arkansas, the Confederate Arizona Territory, and Indian Nations from being effectively cut off from the rest of the Confederacy. Meanwhile, Gen. Pemberton was holding on as best he could to Vicksburg that Grant had under siege. Johnston was massing troops as best he could from all parts of the southeast that could be spared in an effort to break the siege, but it was a near impossible task as none could be had from west bank of the Mississippi River that was then controlled by Federal forces. Gen. Bragg was reluctant to send Johnston any support and moving troops from the defenses of Mobile was unwise because the Federals by that time occupied both New Orleans and Pensacola, on the west and east flanks of Mobile, and were constantly threatening attack from either, or both. Johnston knew that he was facing overwhelming numbers and had to plan his attack on Grant carefully as he would have only one chance at it. Additionally, according to the last message that was received from Pemberton to Johnston via courier, he reported he estimated that he could hold out until mid-July. This was a miscalculation on Pemberton's part. The results were that Johnston was unable to assemble a force large enough to engage Grant and relieve the siege before Pemberton's army ran out of food and were too weak to fight their way out. They had plenty of arms and ammunition, but food had been exhausted. Johnston did not know the extent of the food shortage and was making his plans by his last communication with Pemberton.
So, this was the general situation. It was believed, incorrectly, that Vicksburg could hold out until it could be relieved with troops from the southeast. If Lee was successful, and he and his army had the track record of success, in defeating the Federals on northern soil and taking Baltimore, Philadelphia, and/or Washington itself, they could demand an end to the war and independence. If Lee had taken Washington, it would have made no difference what happened at Vicksburg. Remember, the Confederacy never had any intention whatsoever of conquering or destroying the United States government or it's cities, etc. They simply wanted their independence to govern themselves. They wanted out of what they believed had become a bad marriage, if you will. We can play countless hours of "woulda, coulda, shoulda", but that didn't happen. Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, if Lee had stayed in Virginia with most of his army and sent Longstreet with his corps to Mississippi and they, with Johnston and Pemberton's forces, had defeated Grant, that in itself would not have ended the war. However, Grant was on the verge of being relieved of command due to his past failures to take Vicksburg. I doubt his career as an army commander would have continued. Would at that point a frustrated U.S. government agree to peace? Maybe. Frankly, I don't know.
People in the north by that time were very weary of the war. They had recently lost several large eastern battles with horrendous casualties and had repeatedly failed to take Richmond. Now their great western army has been defeated. So now, what do the Confederates do militarily? Three possibilities as I see it: 1) send Longstreet's Corps back to Virginia?, 2) attack and retake New Orleans?, or 3) move north towards St. Louis?. My choice would be New Orleans. With the defeat of the western Federal army and the retaking of New Orleans, in my opinion, this would bring about foreign recognition of the Confederacy by England and France and most probably a peace treaty with the U.S. and independence. However, like I earlier said, that ain't what happened. 20/20 hindsight. It could easily have happened.
JMHO,YMMV
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
Interesting reading there, Mike. Thanks for posting it.
As much as I’ve been infatuated with Gettysburg, I’ve always thought that most people attach way too much importance to it. With Grant’s capture of Vicksburg, the die was already cast for the South’s defeat.
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I agree. I have said for years that on the fateful day of 04 July 1863, the Confederacy failed to win the war at Gettysburg and lost the war at Vicksburg. My great-grandmother's brother was with the 13th Mississippi Infantry Regt., Barksdale's Brigade, Longstreet's Corps at Gettysburg. Another great-grandmother's brother was with the 43rd Mississippi Infantry Regt. at Vicksburg. My great-grandfather was with the 40th Alabama Infantry Regt., Moore's Brigade at Vicksburg. My wife's great-gr-grandfather was with the 39th Georgia Infantry Regt. at Vicksburg. My people saw a lot of history made on that fateful day.
My Great Grandfather Patton was at Vicksburg, or so I was told, but research of the
2nd Arkansas 2nd Arkansas infantry, that He was in, does not show them at Vicksburg. They were in a lot of major battles, and He mustered out in North Carolina at the end of the war. miles
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
This has earned you a place on my ignore list. You can go to Hell. miles
MILES, Your getting slow in your old age I've had this BUTT HOLE on ignore, for a couple of months. Rio7
Haven't paid much attention to Him until now. miles
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
This has earned you a place on my ignore list. You can go to Hell. miles
Lol oh no!!! A guy who wishes the south won the civil war put me on his ignore list!!!! What am I going to do now?!?!?! Hahahha
MILES, Your getting slow in your old age I've had this BUTT HOLE on ignore, for a couple of months. Rio7
This is 100% a lie since I havnt started posting regularly in this particular part of the forum for more than ~ 2 weeks.
So many filthy, dishonest liars around here, it’s amazing.
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
I’m just curious as to why you think the South are pieces of schiit?
Right before the battle, Lee had a heart episode. Also, he had fallen off his horse and just had the splints taken off right before the battle. I just wonder if he wasn't 100% for the battle. I can only imagine the stress. Pendleton was one of Lee's crones. He was also chummy with Davis. The top Confederate officers all went to Pendletons church in Richmond
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
I’m just curious as to why you think the South are pieces of schiit?
I have no opinion of the current south, I was referring to the south st the time of the civil war.
I've been close by twice over the last 10 years - visiting PA for work. Never made it there. Wish I had.
Be interesting to see what historians consider the most studied battle of all time. Gettysburg? Waterloo? No idea what the answer would be but Gettysburg certainly lends itself to examining bit by bit.
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
I’m just curious as to why you think the South are pieces of schiit?
I have no opinion of the current south, I was referring to the south st the time of the civil war.
So was I. Why?
Be interesting to see what historians consider the most studied battle of all time. Gettysburg? Waterloo? No idea what the answer would be but Gettysburg certainly lends itself to examining bit by bit.
Have to think Midway or D-Day is on that list too, if just due to scale.
Be interesting to see what historians consider the most studied battle of all time. Gettysburg? Waterloo? No idea what the answer would be but Gettysburg certainly lends itself to examining bit by bit.
Have to think Midway or D-Day is on that list too, if just due to scale.
Even though I served in the Navy, I was thinking along the lines on strictly land battles, but yeah, those would work. You could add Leyte Gulf and Jutland in that case.
Be interesting to see what historians consider the most studied battle of all time. Gettysburg? Waterloo? No idea what the answer would be but Gettysburg certainly lends itself to examining bit by bit.
What’s interesting to me is how much new pertaining to Gettysburg has been learned by Historians in my own lifetime.
I’m not a Historian I just read the books they wrote. It was prob’ly around 1973 when I found Bruce Catton’s famous trilogy in my high school library. My first serious immersion in the history of that war. I should read it again to see how current it is.
What’s interesting to me is how much new pertaining to Gettysburg has been learned by Historians in my own lifetime.
What do you think that's based on? New sources like personal journals? Combing over old accounts?
What’s interesting to me is how much new pertaining to Gettysburg has been learned by Historians in my own lifetime.
What do you think that's based on? New sources like personal journals? Combing over old accounts?
Has to be primary sources, which would include journals and accounts. Other valuable primary sources would icludd Quartermaster’s records and trade and mercantile inventories.
I think looking at old evidence with new questions in mind helps too. For example AFAIK nobody questioned why Lee would commit less than 20% of his available manpower to his final attack of Day 3.
Turns out Pickett’s charge was intended to be just one element of a larger plan. Tom Carhart’s “Lost Triumph: Lee’s Real Plan at Gettysburg” didn’t come out in print until 2005.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Triumph-Lees-Gettysburg-Failed/dp/0425207919
When Ted Turner was doing "Gettysburg", I could have been an extra in Pickets charge but was too busy, 1 of the biggest regrets of my life. Most of my Cousins went & they said there wasn't a dry eye among the Confederate extras.
The men in the Georgia part of my family joined Phillips Legion & were actively engaged at the battle.
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
Just imagine living around the Shenandoah valley and not being a non slave owner in that time period and having your home burned your crops burned and your livestock stolen what would you do
What’s interesting to me is how much new pertaining to Gettysburg has been learned by Historians in my own lifetime.
What do you think that's based on? New sources like personal journals? Combing over old accounts?
Has to be primary sources, which would include journals and accounts. Other valuable primary sources would icludd Quartermaster’s records and trade and mercantile inventories.
I think looking at old evidence with new questions in mind helps too. For example AFAIK nobody questioned why Lee would commit less than 20% of his available manpower to his final attack of Day 3.
Turns out Pickett’s charge was intended to be just one element of a larger plan. Tom Carhart’s “Lost Triumph: Lee’s Real Plan at Gettysburg” didn’t come out in print until 2005.
https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Triumph-Lees-Gettysburg-Failed/dp/0425207919Lee only committed 12,000 men because that's all he had that were combat ready on day 3. And he didn't even have that as Trimble and Pettigrews men were battle weary and had to put rifles in the hands of cooks and ambulance drivers to fill out the regiments.
I’ll have to bring up the dreaded “what if” again Pickett’s division was held in reserve at chambersburg day 2 a single Florida brigade under Perry walked the same path as Pickett’s charge on day 2 and took cemetery ridge but had no support even took a battery of guns they took casualties but nothing compared to the next day all the action was on the flanks the round tops and culps hill cemetery ridge was empty “what if” that was Perry’s brigade + Pickett’s division followed by AP Hill corps
While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3
While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3
Hills Corp was also exhausted and licking its wounds after fighting all day July 1
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
Just imagine living around the Shenandoah valley and not being a non slave owner in that time period and having your home burned your crops burned and your livestock stolen what would you do
I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.
I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.
Back to Britain with you
While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3
Hills Corp was also exhausted and licking its wounds after fighting all day July 1
Before Jackson’s demise in may the army was 2 corps Jackson and Longstreet by July everything had shifted to 3 corps Ewell had one leg and had to be carried off a horse AP hill was probably in the same shape from his younger escapades neither had ever experienced corps command as before they were divisional commanders the only real corps commander Lee had was Longstreet and he didn’t take his advise
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].
Just imagine living around the Shenandoah valley and not being a non slave owner in that time period and having your home burned your crops burned and your livestock stolen what would you do
I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.
I’d defend my home and state and be in the group of traitors
I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.
Back to Britain with you
Back??? I’m not from there. Nah I’d be on the side of America, not the ones trying to break apart form America.
Prior to the Gettysburg engagement, several CSA elements had been poking around West of the PA Capital in Harrisburg..Carlisle, Mechanicsburg and a few other areas on the west shore, had been "invaded" by Confederate cavalry and artillery units. Some historians believe Lee's ultimate purpose in coming to PA, was to capture Harrisburg.
A few of those minor skirmishes took place within a few miles of where I live. By the time most of Lee's forces were converging on Gettysburg, all of the scattered elements in this area, were recalled to join Lee. Supposedly the "high water mark" took place on the Cumberland/Perry county border, a week prior to Gettysburg?
The south didn't have to win the war, they only had to not lose it.
The real blunder on behalf of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia was crossing the Mason Dixon Line.
They lost a war they didn't have to win at Gettysburg. All be it, it took another 2 years to play out. It was only General Meade's indecision and hesitation to immediately follow up his victory and trap Lee's army against a swollen Potomac River that allowed the war to go on another 2 years. Meade could have, should have, destroyed Lee's army in that place and time and he had ample opportunity to do it in the days following Lee's failed July 3rd assault on the Union center, and with Pemberton's surrendered of Vicksburg to Grant on the fourth of July, that would have surely ended the war and saved 10's of thousands of American lives. Nobody talks about what Meade didn't do, history only remembers what Lee didn't do.
Lee should have stayed in Northern Virginia.
Hindsight in war is always 20/20.
When I was attending the Army War College we spent many days there studying and walking the battlefields. I enjoyed it immensely. Haven't been back in many years, but like anything else, a visit today would be far different due to the cultural changes.
When Ted Turner was doing "Gettysburg", I could have been an extra in Pickets charge but was too busy, 1 of the biggest regrets of my life. Most of my Cousins went & they said there wasn't a dry eye among the Confederate extras.
The men in the Georgia part of my family joined Phillips Legion & were actively engaged at the battle.
I am a WBTS reenactor. My unit portrays Confederate infantry and Federal when needed. Hey, somebody has to play the bad guys when there are not enough Yankees to fight. I had the wonderful experience in 1998 of being at the 135th Anniversary Reenactment of the Battle of Gettysburg. That was the largest military reenactment event ever held anywhere on the planet, before or since. In the reenactment world, it was like being at Woodstock. This was the most incredible experience I have participated in since I started in 1997 through the present. I was in Picket's Charge there in 1998 as a Confederate infantryman and we reportedly actually had nearly as many Confederates there in that charge as were in 1863. In preparation for the charge, we were waiting inside the woods at the edge of the field, just like was done in 1863 and as portrayed in the movie "Gettysburg". While we were there, 100 full size reproduction cannons kept up a constant fire toward the Federal lines. The cannons fired one at a time down the line one right after another and back again. The smoke from all of those guns was thick as a great fog around us. This continued constantly for a good 45-50 minutes. In the distance across the rolling landscape we could see the Yanks behind a low stone wall. EVERYONE was thinking this was going to be a bloodbath. But yet we knew that this battle had to be won and we had to break their line. Just as the soldiers of 1863 surely did, we did as well during that long wait, a lot of reflecting. It was a natural thing. Again, just like what was portrayed in the movie. Research had been done as best we could as to about how many casualties each unit had taken at various distances of the assault and so many were assigned to become casualties here and there before hand. As we formed up and took arms from the stacks and unfurled our battle flags, I literally felt shivers as we marched in close formation through the artillery and across that long open field. I,myself, made it to the wall and died on top of it. All around me was simulated hand to hand combat. As was in the real battle, we were repulsed and the survivors limped back in defeat. The Federals, even though victorious, had been so traumatized, they were unable to mount a counter-attack. So ended the 135th Gettysburg Reenactment (3rd day). Upon hearing the command for all to recover, I spoke to several of the Yankees there and they universally told me they were awestruck at seeing us keep coming at them. We all knew what to expect, but it was an incredible experience to actually be immersed in it. Not anywhere near as horrific as in 1863, but as close as anyone will have ever gotten to since then. I thank God none of us actually saw the unimagined horrors that were included in the real thing. When one experiences an event like this, it gives you a much deeper understanding and respect for what those soldiers experienced.
I was behind the wall you came up against there in ‘98. The sight of rank upon rank (in the actual number there was in the real attack)coming at us was pretty impressive to say the least.
7mm,
We may have discussed this, but have you ever seen the trenches on top of
Snake Spring Mountain. Supposedly there are similar earthenworks up by Claysburg and somewhere in Morrison's Cove (Cove Mtn I think)?
I found this one day Turkey hunting. Just bumbling around up there, i got myself twisted around, and kinda lost. Found a house, followed the driveway out, and found a little pavilion with info on it. Cool as hell. Pass over there all the time, never noticed those "ditches". There is a historical marker, but it's right on top, in the turn. You can begin to read it.
The fear was, Lee would use those mountain passes to access Altoona and
destroy the railroads.
Also, Camp Misery.
At the state line, there was concern that Rebs would come into Cumberland by train, and move up the Valley. They established Camp Misery in the swampy area just north of The Mason Dixon. Lost quite a few guys there, due to dysentery, and other issues due to living in the dam swamp. There's a little memorial to it on the west side of 220.
While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3
Hills Corp was also exhausted and licking its wounds after fighting all day July 1
Before Jackson’s demise in may the army was 2 corps Jackson and Longstreet by July everything had shifted to 3 corps Ewell had one leg and had to be carried off a horse AP hill was probably in the same shape from his younger escapades neither had ever experienced corps command as before they were divisional commanders the only real corps commander Lee had was Longstreet and he didn’t take his advise
Oh I'm not saying Hill and Ewell were great Corp commanders. I'm just saying Hills Corp fought like hell on July 1 and had to spend the next two days recuperating.
The south didn't have to win the war, they only had to not lose it.
The real blunder on behalf of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia was crossing the Mason Dixon Line.
They lost a war they didn't have to win at Gettysburg. All be it, it took another 2 years to play out. It was only General Meade's indecision and hesitation to immediately follow up his victory and trap Lee's army against a swollen Potomac River that allowed the war to go on another 2 years. Meade could have, should have, destroyed Lee's army in that place and time and he had ample opportunity to do it in the days following Lee's failed July 3rd assault on the Union center, and with Pemberton's surrendered of Vicksburg to Grant on the fourth of July, that would have surely ended the war and saved 10's of thousands of American lives. Nobody talks about what Meade didn't do, history only remembers what Lee didn't do.
Lee should have stayed in Northern Virginia.
Hindsight in war is always 20/20.
In Meades defense his Army arrived at Gettysburg with three days rations and ammo and they had just fought a three day battle. Their supplies were still 25 miles behind them on July 4
I've been there twice. Very emotional place. Was anyone beside me sad that they picked a liberal kook like Martin Sheen to play an honorable man like Robert E. Lee?
Ron
I was behind the wall you came up against there in ‘98. The sight of rank upon rank (in the actual number there was in the real attack)coming at us was pretty impressive to say the least.
That might also have been the high water mark of reenacting, at least in the US. It appears to have been a generational thing, far fewer involved nowadays.
In Meades defense his Army arrived at Gettysburg with three days rations and ammo and they had just fought a three day battle. Their supplies were still 25 miles behind them on July 4
Which brings up a good point rarely mentioned.
How many support troops did it take to support one combat infantryman back then, in either army?
I was behind the wall you came up against there in ‘98. The sight of rank upon rank (in the actual number there was in the real attack)coming at us was pretty impressive to say the least.
That might also have been the high water mark of reenacting, at least in the US. It appears to have been a generational thing, far fewer involved nowadays.
That's pretty interesting, I didn't know that. Moving to Alaska removed me from the hobby. It was a really neat activity for a person interested in history, and the camaraderie was outstanding. I imagine these days everyone wanting to whip out a smart phone is the bane of reenacting.
I was a Johnny Reb reenactor in my younger days. You're right about the camaraderie. It was great. I don't miss the wool in the hot sun though
I’ve seen those earthworks there at Snake Spring a few times, but never really strayed too far up off the road. I never heard of any near Claysburg, but lots of interesting stuff gets lost in History. I’ve got a buddy that lives on GunClub Road, so if I see him at P-ville for the car show I’ll ask him. It runs in my mind that I heard of works to protect Morrison’s Cove, but I have no idea where they’d be. Do you happen to know any geo-cache folks? They might be able to tell you.
I know there’s a few graves there on the state line from soldiers who died of illness there, but again, I never did to much exploring.
Mike, it runs in my mind I read that support troops at that time were around a 1 to 1 ratio, but I can’t swear to it. I know that nowadays, there’s 3 or 4 support troops for each one in combat arms, maybe more.
I thought the Army back then employed a lot more civilian contractors due to the rapid expansion of the volunteer units. At that time, not many generals put much thought into logistics as they do today. They’ve come to realize that the best troops in the world aren’t that much unless they’ve got a good base of support troops.
From 85 to 89, I served in a support battalion of the 2nd Brigade, 9th Infantry. My company was mechanical support, meaning if it broke, we fixed it. Another company transported supplies to the forward combat troops and a third company supplied medical support.
All told about 600 people in our battalion.
7mm
7mm,
We may have discussed this, but have you ever seen the trenches on top of
Snake Spring Mountain. Supposedly there are similar earthenworks up by Claysburg and somewhere in Morrison's Cove (Cove Mtn I think)?
I found this one day Turkey hunting. Just bumbling around up there, i got myself twisted around, and kinda lost. Found a house, followed the driveway out, and found a little pavilion with info on it. Cool as hell. Pass over there all the time, never noticed those "ditches". There is a historical marker, but it's right on top, in the turn. You can begin to read it.
The fear was, Lee would use those mountain passes to access Altoona and
destroy the railroads.
Funny you mention this, the July 2021 issue of the Pa. Game News has an article about Game Lands #73. There's a picture of both the entrenchment and the historical marker in the article which mentions they are near Snake Spring.
Dale
I'll have to find that. Be interesting to read. But probably just rehashed what's on the board. Does it show the roofed little kiosk. Or just the highway marker.
The kiosk thing has the good info. And I think it's just someone's personal project.
If you are in the neighborhood.
At the hospital take Upper Snake Spring road to the T.
Turn left, it's at the top of the mountain.
There is a private road (I think) with a gate, on the left.
The kiosk is back that road.
From 85 to 89, I served in a support battalion of the 2nd Brigade, 9th Infantry. My company was mechanical support, meaning if it broke, we fixed it. Another company transported supplies to the forward combat troops and a third company supplied medical support.
All told about 600 people in our battalion.
7mm
I think you may find this interesting, referencing what it took to keep an army in the field. All of this was accomplished with the relatively rudimentary forms of record-keeping and communication available.
https://transportation.army.mil/History/PDF/Peninsula%20Campaign/Rodney%20Lackey%20Article_1.pdf
I'll have to find that. Be interesting to read. But probably just rehashed what's on the board. Does it show the roofed little kiosk. Or just the highway marker.
The kiosk thing has the good info. And I think it's just someone's personal project.
If you are in the neighborhood.
At the hospital take Upper Snake Spring road to the T.
Turn left, it's at the top of the mountain.
There is a private road (I think) with a gate, on the left.
The kiosk is back that road.
The Game News article is part of series they have been running about various gamelands across the state. Location, size, habitat types and interesting tidbits of info. Just a couple of photos of the marker and the entrenchment along with other photos from the gamelands. No actual information about the civil war except what's on the blue historical marker.
Dale