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Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Birdwatcher] #16230034 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
Originally Posted by RufusG
Originally Posted by Birdwatcher
What’s interesting to me is how much new pertaining to Gettysburg has been learned by Historians in my own lifetime.


What do you think that's based on? New sources like personal journals? Combing over old accounts?


Has to be primary sources, which would include journals and accounts. Other valuable primary sources would icludd Quartermaster’s records and trade and mercantile inventories.

I think looking at old evidence with new questions in mind helps too. For example AFAIK nobody questioned why Lee would commit less than 20% of his available manpower to his final attack of Day 3.

Turns out Pickett’s charge was intended to be just one element of a larger plan. Tom Carhart’s “Lost Triumph: Lee’s Real Plan at Gettysburg” didn’t come out in print until 2005.

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Triumph-Lees-Gettysburg-Failed/dp/0425207919



Lee only committed 12,000 men because that's all he had that were combat ready on day 3. And he didn't even have that as Trimble and Pettigrews men were battle weary and had to put rifles in the hands of cooks and ambulance drivers to fill out the regiments.


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Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16230163 07/06/21
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I’ll have to bring up the dreaded “what if” again Pickett’s division was held in reserve at chambersburg day 2 a single Florida brigade under Perry walked the same path as Pickett’s charge on day 2 and took cemetery ridge but had no support even took a battery of guns they took casualties but nothing compared to the next day all the action was on the flanks the round tops and culps hill cemetery ridge was empty “what if” that was Perry’s brigade + Pickett’s division followed by AP Hill corps

Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16230185 07/06/21
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While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3

Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: earlybrd] #16230228 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by earlybrd
While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3


Hills Corp was also exhausted and licking its wounds after fighting all day July 1


Safe queens should be taken out and shot!
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: earlybrd] #16230242 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by earlybrd
Originally Posted by AKPENDUDE
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].

Just imagine living around the Shenandoah valley and not being a non slave owner in that time period and having your home burned your crops burned and your livestock stolen what would you do


I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.

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Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: AKPENDUDE] #16230252 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by AKPENDUDE


I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.


Back to Britain with you


Don't you ever wonder why
In spite of all that's wrong here
There's still so much that goes so right
And beauty abounds?

The thunder rolls and the baby sighs
And the rain comes down
Don't you wanta thank someone for this?
-Andrew Peterson
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: moosemike] #16230331 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by earlybrd
While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3


Hills Corp was also exhausted and licking its wounds after fighting all day July 1

Before Jackson’s demise in may the army was 2 corps Jackson and Longstreet by July everything had shifted to 3 corps Ewell had one leg and had to be carried off a horse AP hill was probably in the same shape from his younger escapades neither had ever experienced corps command as before they were divisional commanders the only real corps commander Lee had was Longstreet and he didn’t take his advise

Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: AKPENDUDE] #16230355 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by AKPENDUDE
Originally Posted by earlybrd
Originally Posted by AKPENDUDE
Thank god the north beat those southern pieces of [bleep].

Just imagine living around the Shenandoah valley and not being a non slave owner in that time period and having your home burned your crops burned and your livestock stolen what would you do


I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.

I’d defend my home and state and be in the group of traitors

Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: efw] #16230397 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by efw
Originally Posted by AKPENDUDE


I’d have moved north long before that. No way I’d associate with a group of traitors.


Back to Britain with you


Back??? I’m not from there. Nah I’d be on the side of America, not the ones trying to break apart form America.

Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16230540 07/06/21
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Prior to the Gettysburg engagement, several CSA elements had been poking around West of the PA Capital in Harrisburg..Carlisle, Mechanicsburg and a few other areas on the west shore, had been "invaded" by Confederate cavalry and artillery units. Some historians believe Lee's ultimate purpose in coming to PA, was to capture Harrisburg.

A few of those minor skirmishes took place within a few miles of where I live. By the time most of Lee's forces were converging on Gettysburg, all of the scattered elements in this area, were recalled to join Lee. Supposedly the "high water mark" took place on the Cumberland/Perry county border, a week prior to Gettysburg?


If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.
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Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16230728 07/06/21
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The south didn't have to win the war, they only had to not lose it.

The real blunder on behalf of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia was crossing the Mason Dixon Line.

They lost a war they didn't have to win at Gettysburg. All be it, it took another 2 years to play out. It was only General Meade's indecision and hesitation to immediately follow up his victory and trap Lee's army against a swollen Potomac River that allowed the war to go on another 2 years. Meade could have, should have, destroyed Lee's army in that place and time and he had ample opportunity to do it in the days following Lee's failed July 3rd assault on the Union center, and with Pemberton's surrendered of Vicksburg to Grant on the fourth of July, that would have surely ended the war and saved 10's of thousands of American lives. Nobody talks about what Meade didn't do, history only remembers what Lee didn't do.

Lee should have stayed in Northern Virginia.

Hindsight in war is always 20/20.





"You cannot invade mainland America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"
~Admiral Yamamoto~

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. ~Thomas Jefferson~
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16230766 07/06/21
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When I was attending the Army War College we spent many days there studying and walking the battlefields. I enjoyed it immensely. Haven't been back in many years, but like anything else, a visit today would be far different due to the cultural changes.

Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: gahuntertom] #16230919 07/06/21
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Originally Posted by gahuntertom
When Ted Turner was doing "Gettysburg", I could have been an extra in Pickets charge but was too busy, 1 of the biggest regrets of my life. Most of my Cousins went & they said there wasn't a dry eye among the Confederate extras.

The men in the Georgia part of my family joined Phillips Legion & were actively engaged at the battle.

I am a WBTS reenactor. My unit portrays Confederate infantry and Federal when needed. Hey, somebody has to play the bad guys when there are not enough Yankees to fight. I had the wonderful experience in 1998 of being at the 135th Anniversary Reenactment of the Battle of Gettysburg. That was the largest military reenactment event ever held anywhere on the planet, before or since. In the reenactment world, it was like being at Woodstock. This was the most incredible experience I have participated in since I started in 1997 through the present. I was in Picket's Charge there in 1998 as a Confederate infantryman and we reportedly actually had nearly as many Confederates there in that charge as were in 1863. In preparation for the charge, we were waiting inside the woods at the edge of the field, just like was done in 1863 and as portrayed in the movie "Gettysburg". While we were there, 100 full size reproduction cannons kept up a constant fire toward the Federal lines. The cannons fired one at a time down the line one right after another and back again. The smoke from all of those guns was thick as a great fog around us. This continued constantly for a good 45-50 minutes. In the distance across the rolling landscape we could see the Yanks behind a low stone wall. EVERYONE was thinking this was going to be a bloodbath. But yet we knew that this battle had to be won and we had to break their line. Just as the soldiers of 1863 surely did, we did as well during that long wait, a lot of reflecting. It was a natural thing. Again, just like what was portrayed in the movie. Research had been done as best we could as to about how many casualties each unit had taken at various distances of the assault and so many were assigned to become casualties here and there before hand. As we formed up and took arms from the stacks and unfurled our battle flags, I literally felt shivers as we marched in close formation through the artillery and across that long open field. I,myself, made it to the wall and died on top of it. All around me was simulated hand to hand combat. As was in the real battle, we were repulsed and the survivors limped back in defeat. The Federals, even though victorious, had been so traumatized, they were unable to mount a counter-attack. So ended the 135th Gettysburg Reenactment (3rd day). Upon hearing the command for all to recover, I spoke to several of the Yankees there and they universally told me they were awestruck at seeing us keep coming at them. We all knew what to expect, but it was an incredible experience to actually be immersed in it. Not anywhere near as horrific as in 1863, but as close as anyone will have ever gotten to since then. I thank God none of us actually saw the unimagined horrors that were included in the real thing. When one experiences an event like this, it gives you a much deeper understanding and respect for what those soldiers experienced.


"...why, land is the only thing in the world worth working for, worth fighting for, worth dying for,... because it is the only thing that lasts."
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16230941 07/06/21
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I was behind the wall you came up against there in ‘98. The sight of rank upon rank (in the actual number there was in the real attack)coming at us was pretty impressive to say the least.

Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16231022 07/07/21
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7mm,
We may have discussed this, but have you ever seen the trenches on top of
Snake Spring Mountain. Supposedly there are similar earthenworks up by Claysburg and somewhere in Morrison's Cove (Cove Mtn I think)?

I found this one day Turkey hunting. Just bumbling around up there, i got myself twisted around, and kinda lost. Found a house, followed the driveway out, and found a little pavilion with info on it. Cool as hell. Pass over there all the time, never noticed those "ditches". There is a historical marker, but it's right on top, in the turn. You can begin to read it.

The fear was, Lee would use those mountain passes to access Altoona and
destroy the railroads.

Also, Camp Misery.
At the state line, there was concern that Rebs would come into Cumberland by train, and move up the Valley. They established Camp Misery in the swampy area just north of The Mason Dixon. Lost quite a few guys there, due to dysentery, and other issues due to living in the dam swamp. There's a little memorial to it on the west side of 220.


I'm an American, we kneel to no man.
Only to God!

The Alabama section of Pennsylvania.
Where we cling to our God and Guns.
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: earlybrd] #16231030 07/07/21
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Originally Posted by earlybrd
Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by earlybrd
While I’m at it AP Hills corps basically sat on there ass day 2 and 3 as AP Hill had a STD flair up and was incapacitated it’s a known fact Lee was fighting with 2 corps not 3


Hills Corp was also exhausted and licking its wounds after fighting all day July 1

Before Jackson’s demise in may the army was 2 corps Jackson and Longstreet by July everything had shifted to 3 corps Ewell had one leg and had to be carried off a horse AP hill was probably in the same shape from his younger escapades neither had ever experienced corps command as before they were divisional commanders the only real corps commander Lee had was Longstreet and he didn’t take his advise


Oh I'm not saying Hill and Ewell were great Corp commanders. I'm just saying Hills Corp fought like hell on July 1 and had to spend the next two days recuperating.


Safe queens should be taken out and shot!
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: 99guy] #16231033 07/07/21
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Originally Posted by 99guy
The south didn't have to win the war, they only had to not lose it.

The real blunder on behalf of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia was crossing the Mason Dixon Line.

They lost a war they didn't have to win at Gettysburg. All be it, it took another 2 years to play out. It was only General Meade's indecision and hesitation to immediately follow up his victory and trap Lee's army against a swollen Potomac River that allowed the war to go on another 2 years. Meade could have, should have, destroyed Lee's army in that place and time and he had ample opportunity to do it in the days following Lee's failed July 3rd assault on the Union center, and with Pemberton's surrendered of Vicksburg to Grant on the fourth of July, that would have surely ended the war and saved 10's of thousands of American lives. Nobody talks about what Meade didn't do, history only remembers what Lee didn't do.

Lee should have stayed in Northern Virginia.

Hindsight in war is always 20/20.





In Meades defense his Army arrived at Gettysburg with three days rations and ammo and they had just fought a three day battle. Their supplies were still 25 miles behind them on July 4


Safe queens should be taken out and shot!
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: Terryk] #16231042 07/07/21
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I've been there twice. Very emotional place. Was anyone beside me sad that they picked a liberal kook like Martin Sheen to play an honorable man like Robert E. Lee?

Ron


People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
Orwell
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: pabucktail] #16231109 07/07/21
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Originally Posted by pabucktail
I was behind the wall you came up against there in ‘98. The sight of rank upon rank (in the actual number there was in the real attack)coming at us was pretty impressive to say the least.


That might also have been the high water mark of reenacting, at least in the US. It appears to have been a generational thing, far fewer involved nowadays.


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
Re: Went to Gettysburg [Re: moosemike] #16231163 07/07/21
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Originally Posted by moosemike
In Meades defense his Army arrived at Gettysburg with three days rations and ammo and they had just fought a three day battle. Their supplies were still 25 miles behind them on July 4


Which brings up a good point rarely mentioned.

How many support troops did it take to support one combat infantryman back then, in either army?


"...if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them." Canasatego 1744
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