Our SIL recently bought a '21 Toyota Rav4 plug-in hybrid. It varies from a normal hybrid in that you can plug it in to have fully charged batteries. He says he can go 42 miles on full electric before the gas engine kicks in. He can charge it in the driveway from a special 240v outlet he had installed. It takes 3.5 hrs from empty to full charge. When he used 120v, it took 12 hrs. For them, the 42 mile range works very well as he can easily get to and from work and do some running around. When they travel, they just plan on using gas. The problem there is that it only has a 13 gal gas tank so he has to keep an eye on the gas gauge.
It's working for them and it's a LOT better than a full EV.

They certainly work for some folks.
Buddy got a Nissan Leaf for his wife to commute about 30 miles each way to work.
At the time Nissan was offering a lease with zero down and $99 a month. Was a hell of a deal.

They can have it.... Great for them, worthless for most of us...

Agreed.

Osky

Like the concept, but they still have a LONG way to go getting range and reliability out of them in my book...

The local Community College, where I volunteer at the Automotive Program, have one of those little Chevy EVs donated via Funds...

its to teach students studying to be automotive mechanics about them.... this little critter has had all sorts of electrical issues with it already
and its just a year old....

The price of this thing was like $30K, yet GM was selling them for like $12.5K to just get them out on the road, and in the public view...

With Biden trying to force these things on the public, I'm not really interested...especially how much they want for them... just because you don't have to use Gas or diesel.

Darn thing is the fanciest golf cart I've seen, is pretty much my opinion of it...

Friends of ours have a Subaru 6 cylinder Outback and they were looking at the new Subaru Crosstrek as a possible upgrade with it’s plug in hybrid engine option. I just got the new April Consumer Reports auto issue and they write that the hybrid Crosstrek only has a 17 mile mostly electric range and isn’t worth the cost up charge. 17 miles! Yawn.

Hybrids get gooood gas mileage. 13 gal tank should last a long time.


Sometime around 2008-2009, my personal car broke down and I rented the cheapest thing Enterprise had. I needed to drive about 70 miles RT to get a truck and trailer to haul the car home. I got a Prius Hybrid, drove it 70 miles, and it never came off the full mark on the gas gauge. The only time the motor kicked in was going uphill or when I accelerated. The rest of the time it ran on batteries and when going down hill (basically coasting) or braking, it was charging the batteries.

Yeah, 17 is pathetic. The OP’s 42 miles is even pretty pathetic.

Tesla’s go something like 300 to 400 miles depending on model and conditions.

So what does it cost in electricity to fully charge it and how will subzero temps affect the range? Also battery life and replacement cost?

I need to see more about what the long term consequences/benefits of the "power" system management looks like.

All batteries have a life cycle, charge/discharge cycles, cost of battery replacement, recycling cost.

There will be the need for commercial development of the end of life battery disposal, recycling, methods and the end user costs of this battery management.

And the government regulatory cost of the battery processing. Me thinks there are fairly expensive $$$ consequences down the road for EV owners.

The government has probably looked at the potential to build another bureaucracy that will generate income managing end of life batteries.

I've seen little discussed about the $$$ impact of the battery management, but a lot of promotion to get the EV into the American fleet. I'm sure there is information available about projected costs, disposal fees, and so forth.

Wife bought a 2021 Toyota Highlander Hybrid. It has a full electric mode, but it is just for low speed no emissions times. Getting into and out of enclosed parking garages, for example. Hybrid mode is fantastic. Plenty of power to merge onto the interstate, effortless cruising, up to 36 mpg. Every bell and whistle like radar cruise control. It's our road trip car.

I think the "most people" comment above is wrong. There are a helluva lot more people who commute to work and shopping than those who pull horse trailers and haul rocks. There will always be a need for hauling and towing that electrics/hybrids probably won't handle. Gas/diesel wins at those jobs.

But for highway cruising, hybrids are great. For local-only driving, full electrics can and do fit the bill. I am ignoring for the moment the electrical supply issue if there are millions more electric cars. The discussion here is just about which vehicles are suitable for which jobs.

Got to wonder how companies that compensate employees using their personal vehicles for work assignments via mileage allowance will determine fair mileage reimburse formula for employees with electric vehicles...

Must be battery size in a hybrid compared to a fully electric vehicle.

Ya think?

I bought a BMW X5 plug-in and it has a 33 all electronic range. One reason for purchasing is the tax credit you get which is very good but the main reason is how it drives. The first boost is electric and very smooth and quick, it’s like 4 seconds 0-60, then the gas takes over. My highway mileage is in the 50s and that is with 400 plus horsepower. I think this technology is the future and once they get the electric range of 100 miles plus then most people will transition. All electric cars make me nervous and are not practical for me.

Has he calculated how much that 3.5 hour charge works out to be for that 42 miles? I own a regular hybrid and love it but that’s a number I’ve never seen.

Why would that matter? I’d fight for it to be the same. RIght now I figure my fuel cost is about 15% of my mileage allowance. If I decide to go with a hybrid it’s no one’s business but mine.

I wonder how his electric bill is.

Agree, I manage the program for my company’s sales team and some have trucks and others have Teslas. They all get the same mileage reimbursement and I use it as an intelligence test. It’s an individual choice.

Plug it in, watch your meter spin, then trace your wires back to the plant where the power is being made.

Electric vehicles really lose their shine when reality is considered.

Who is this "most of us" you are referring to exactly? Most people live in urban centers and somewhat dense suburbs. They drive to work, get groceries, and haul their kids around. All of which the vehicle referred to in the OP is quite capable of.

I have a 4x4 truck too. I use it to haul hunting dogs, fishing boat, ATVs, and water to the cabin. Yet a little more powerful plug in hybrid drivetrain in that truck would accomplish all that and save a great deal on fuel.

A whole lot more mechanically and electronically complex.

I have a 270,000 mile Corolla sitting in my driveway, starts right up every time I turn the key. Lots of people like me drive a vehicle until the wheels fall off, I dunno if all this new technology is gonna lend itself to that.

Relative bought a Hybrid, only kept it a few months, enough of that already, YMMV

My sister has been driving Prius's for years and it works well for her. She buys them with a warranty and gets another before she has to replace the battery pack. She lives near Cottonwood and my mom lives in Phoenix so she makes the trip once or twice a month. Claims she gets as much as 70 miles per gallon going to Phoenix because there is a long downhill grade. Gets about 40 going the other way. So an average of 55 mpg.
From what I have seen, Toyota was ahead of the curve with their hybrid concept. They get good fuel mileage and won't leave you stranded if you run out of battery power. Toyota is expanding their line of hybrid vehicles. Until battery technology improves, all electric vehicles are going to have a limited audience.

Okay, makes sense that mileage allowance should be no different than as it is now, regardless whether gas or diesel guzzler or a high MPG economy vehicle, ...it's all about the miles.

What brought that question to mind is I've read that electric vehicles don't use oil so no oil changes/oil filter, a few may use liquid coolant, and only a certain model Tesla requires transmission fluid.

A Prius of that vintage would go ~3/4Mi @ highway speed on just the hybrid battery. In that generation Hybrid the battery was for a "go-aid" for stoplights/signs, merging into traffic, adding power going up-hill to reduce fuel usage, etc. Other than that they ran on a quiet little dependable 1.8L inline 4-cyl hooked to a CVT. They were rated @ 48-49Hwy and 51-52 in town. I put just shy of 100K on an employer-provided 2011 Prius. I know for a fact that the 3/4Mi on a full charge is accurate because the one and only time I've ever run out of fuel entirely of my own doing was in the '11 Prius. I was helping a friend through a minor homeowner crisis over the phone and missed several chances to fill up.

Always thought the idea of a hybrid pickup to pull a small camper for off road camping was intriguing. Larger battery of the truck and ability for it to idle and recharge battery to power camper seems like it would work well. Just not sure if the technology is reliable yet. The all electric trucks with no backup gas engine hold no interest to me.

Rock Chuck;
Good morning sir, I hope the weather's behaving for you folks and you're all well.

As I've mentioned a few times, the brains of the outfit here bought herself a 2019 Rav 4 Hybrid. Even in those pre-beer flu times they were so popular up here that the Toyota dealership couldn't give her a firm delivery date.

Her coworker has had a plug in model on order for just over a year now.....

Anyways the good wife's Rav 4 has averaged 5.4 liters per 100 km since she bought it and that's all local commuting which is a 20 minute run where there is some elevation change as we're in the mountains, but mostly speeds not exceeding 60mph.

Based on her mileage, I'd think that even with a heavy foot that your SIL should be able to make 400 miles on a tank of fuel without too much grief.

I'll also say that while it might not beat my '03 Cummins up a mountain pass - well actually it might? The thing sort of goes pretty good when you step on it, but she doesn't do that often.

Before leaving this all, when I fueled up said Cummins yesterday, with our diesel prices on this side of the medicine line I see that it costs me exactly $0.50CDN per mile for fuel alone.

Oh, lastly she has had zero problems with it since she bought it. As in not one. Based upon working at a big 3 dealership for nearly a year back when she bought the Rav, that's pretty good.

All the best and God bless.

Dwayne

I wonder about a very small turbine engine who's only purpose is to run a high voltage/amperage charging system, not even tied into the EV drive system. I did a little looking earlier this week and a 50HP turbine is ~70#, 21" long and 11.5" in diameter. Uses 4.-.5# of Jet A/hr. 100Amps @ 240volts takes ~45HP. You'd greatly increase the range of an EV as you'd be able to keep/add some charge and you'd only need maybe 5Gal of fuel as that'd be about 60hrs of run time.

Toyota is now building their third generation of hybrids. How they work is beyond me - but the owner of our local dealership tells me they have not had to replace a single battery since Gen Two. They are good for at least 100,000 miles - probably for the life of the vehicle. They just don't know yet because none have failed.

If I grasp it, and based on how ours works, the VERY high-tech little 4-cyl engine runs all the time turning the generator. That in turn powers the drive motors and/or charges the battery depending on load. The wheels are powered by electric motors only. There is no direct connection of the 4-cyl to the wheels. All I know for sure is that it runs smoothly, quietly, and with plenty of gusto when I need it. I don't know of any other six-passenger mid-size SUV that gets 36 mpg.

We drive it to Arizona once or twice a year to visit daughter's family. It is mountainous all the way. We go 300 miles or so between gas stops, and need only eight gallons or less to fill up each time.

Rocky;
Morning sir, I hope all is well with you folks.

This is the transaxle running in my wife's Rav 4.



Hope you or someone finds this as interesting as I did.

All the best and God bless.;

Dwayne

You're comparing an EV to a hybrid, it's apples and oranges.

When that Tesla runs out of charge it's dead on the side of the road. When the Toyota runs out of charge the engine comes on and he keeps driving until he gets low on gas, then he fills up and keeps going.



I don't see how a 13 gallon gas tank is a problem on a vehicle that should get in the high 30's when it's running off of gas. It should easily go 400 miles on a tank which is farther than most pickups. My 2018 (non-hybrid) Camry gets 38 mpg and it's got a 15 gallon tank. I typically go about 500 miles between fill-ups. That's farther than my Tundra will go on it's 38 gallon fuel tank.

Questions the greenie-weenies never wanna answer....

A good perspective about the amount of ore mining required for "green" energy. Including EV and hybrid batteries.

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-reality-check

Wow! 3.5 hours charge for 42 miles! That really is worth all the trouble.

It is bleedingly obvious that some people do not know the difference between an electric vehicle and a hybrid.

What’s the electrical cost per mile vs gas cost for a mile in that vehicle?

Unless they make a full size pick up with 800 plus mile range in cooler weather, I’m staying with gas.

That's awesome, the technology has been around some time for this and it should have been the industry standard for the last decade or more on all commuter type vehicles. Just goes to show it's not about saving gas/fossil fuels/environment etc.

Too bad a lot of people here don't realize the different in hybrid and electric only vehicle or they don't appreciate the value of having two potential fuel sources to make it go.

I think propane hybrid would be something else that should be considered. Diversify fuels that are really available. It's really not that hard of a concept.

Great idea what is the towing capacity LOL.I have to take my camper in for service in a couple weeks think I will ask the dealer where his charging station is for all the folks with EVs. Campers, boats, work trailers etc. can't wait to hear the spin on that from the greenies.

Nailed it! EV technology is improving but we're not there yet and won't be for a long time. Hybrids and passive solar in new construction are two things that would be stupidly easy to implement that no one talks about.

Batteries in electric vehicles are toxic & only 20% recyclable. They required being stored, forever in a secure setting. .No one wants them around where they live. . Extremely toxic. For sure not clean technology. If one catches on fire & you breath it in , it can kill you, quickly. Even a single breath in of the toxic fumes can cause catastrophic lung damage. Rare elements required to make a Lithium-Ion battery , there is estimated to be only a 30 year supply. Also the rare elements needed are only available from hostile nations. Supply can be cut off at any time. Which means no new replacement batteries. Electric vehicles may get great gas mileage , but are more expensive to maintain over a ten year period than combustion engine types. Battery replacement is expensive & must be figured in when looking at your over all fuel cost. Many seem to ignore this. Try & sell a used electric vehicle. From what I see Hydrogen powered vehicles, now in the process of development could be a real clean answer as they only produce water vapor exhaust. I see it as way to early for me to even consider an electric. Too man if's.

All electric or hybrid vehicles will most likely be the dominant vehicles in the future. How far in the future is the unknown. The problem that no one seems to be addressing is the lack of an electrical grid that can charge millions of electric vehicles, run computers, air conditioners, lights, appliances etc. Hot weather in California causes rolling brown outs when everyone runs their air conditioners. Add to this charging electric vehicles and everyone will be sitting in the dark.

"AMEN" sjc

The world's largest deposit of Li is in NV but so far the leftist greenies have prevented anyone from mining it. It's like oil - we have it but can't use it. The left is insane.

Boy howdy is it!

Like Bluto in Animal House, Forget it they're rolling!

It wasn't over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor

Something like that would work for most of us but no one can admit it. I build homes. Drive a Ram 2500 4dr 8foot bed.

80% of the time I COULD drive a Honda Civic.

Lumber gets delivered for framing. Most everything I can actually have delivered. I use my truck to pick up tile, trim, take garbage out etc.

We build custom homes. All tools are onsite or in a trailer. I could make the commute everyday and go estimate jobs in a car.

Most pickups you see don’t carry anything 90% of the time.

Change my mind.

Nope, you're right.

I have a Camry and a Tundra. The Tundra sits unless I need to haul or pull something, 95% of the time I'm driving the Camry because it gets 3X the gas mileage.

Most people drive pickups because they want to, not because they need to. That's fine, it's America and we can do what we want with our money. I kind of tilt my head sideways though when someone tells me they NEED a $75K pickup with heated leather seats and moonroof.

My brother bought a Tesla 18 months ago. Believe me, he is no greenie and he thinks global warming is BS.
He loves this car. Very sporty and great acceleration. I wired up a 220 charging station in his garage, using a dryer receptacle from Lowes. Cost about $60 total for wires, breaker etc. If he charges for one hour, he gets 25 miles of driving.
He says it is way cheaper than gasoline.

The car only gets about 225 miles on a charge, so it is no good for long trips.

Like someone said, you really don't want to "run out of gas" on the highway because AAA can't bring you a 2 gallon jug of electricity. You will go for a ride in a roll back tow truck.

My daily is an '04 Pontiac Montana minivan that I bought from my mother when she quit driving in '08. I have about 240k on it now and lots of electrical things don't work right but it gets 23-24 mpg and is a great runaround. I can get 8' lumber in it with the seats out.

Wifes Honda gets over 30 MPG will do a 14+ second 1/4 mile and go from Seattle to Key West only stopping what the folks inside need

hydrogen once developed will kill electric

The problem with either H2 or CNG is the size and weight of the tanks. They have to be very strong and heavy to handle the pressure and they take up a lot of space.

Where will the Hydrogen come from?

Electricity????? Still have all the power grid issues. That electricity has to come from somewhere.

Me? I am in favor of damming the rest of Hell's Canton, the Salmon, and the Clearwater.

Millions and millions of megawatts going to waste in this nation without even talking about Alaska.

They all want to tear down the dams to save the salmon but not a word is said about getting rid of 10,000 sea lions in the Columbia. They eat an average of 40lb of salmon each, per day.

yup

Here's the spin on towing capacity for you, Pashooter:

How often do you tow that camper? Everyday and everywhere? No? Perhaps only a few times a year? So...the 95% of the time you aren't towing, your towing capacity is moot. Yes, you need a sturdy vehicle that gets 10 mpg while actually towing. But the entire rest of the time, when you're going to the grocery store for beer, you don't.

So, RR...

Do you propose the owner of a towing vehicle purchases a SECOND vehicle (EV or Hybrid) which requires additional payout of annual vehicle taxes, annual registration, monthly insurance premiums and maintenance?
What if weather (long winters of ice and snow) make 4x4 a requirement?

I propose it is simply more affordable to just drive the towing vehicle or 4x4, if one has a short daily commute. If a person has a longer commute, well, decisions have to be made.

Lots of people own more than one vehicle, as you well know. Having a cheap daily driver and a thirsty tow vehicle seems like a darn good option. Especially with $5+ gasoline.

99 Honda Accord, and 01 3/4 T 4X4 GMC purchased within the last year. about 140 K on each. Less than $10,000 purchase cost combined.

Insurance cost is minimal, as is licensing cost. I fill the Honda with gas once every three weeks for my commute. The Truck carries a 4,000 lb Lance camper and tows a 5000 lb boat/trailer when we vacation.

Sure, I could replace the Honda with a Hybrid or EV. But not for the $5000 dollar purchase price. And what would I gain, a 40% reduction in fuel cost.

Maybe $12/week fuel cost vs $20/week. Compare that to the $25,000 to $35,000 purchase price of the Hybrid, and the cost of insurance on the higher value vehicle. Add in 6% sales tax, and licensing fees.

Do we even need to talk about battery disposal and replacement? I can replace the entire engine/transaxle assembly on the Accord for a few thousand bucks. If I live long enough to wear it out.

long term view: dot.guv is gonna make you buy EV.

Then dot.guv gonna make you pay out the poop chute for processing/disposal of the end of life EV batteries.

This will kind of replace the fuel tax revenue that is declining.

AND, dot.guv gonna tax your tire dust as a hazardous material once they figure out tire dust generated as tire wear happens is toxic.

"He can charge it in the driveway from a special 240v outlet he had installed."

How many amps are required for that circuit? Most residential homes only have 100 amp service and the power lines/transformers are to designed to provide that. Will he be using only electricity generated by wind turbines and solar panels?

That second or third vehicle investment cost and ownership/operating cost can represent a LOT of future fuel dollars for the primary vehicle.
I will stick with my truck. The wife gets whatever she wants.

Most household 220/240 outlets (dryer, welder, etc) are 50 to 60 amp.

I have one 50 amp 220 on the outside of the wellhouse for an RV plug and two wells inside. Another 50 amp RV plug on the outside of the garage, as well as a 50 amp welder circuit in the garage.

The house has one 60 amp feeding the furnace as well as a 30 amp to the AC, 50 amps to the dryer, 30 amps to the water heater, and 40 amps to the range.

This is all fed from one 200 amp main at the meter. You just don't run every circuit at maximum capacity simultaneously.

What's the cost to replace the batteries? The goal of the Marxist Democrats (and other globalists) is to bankrupt the middle class worldwide and the USA's economy at the same time. They want all electric vehicles not just cars. I think California is already mandating all electric 18 wheelers in the near future. Most of the material needed to "Go Green" will be made in China.

The people driving and bragging about how great their electric cars are helping them accomplish that.

The minions (democrat voters) of the big cities have no interest in pollution reduction. They simply want pollution displacement.

Get the smog out of their precious cities and move it somewhere else. EVs accomplish this well. Put the generating facilities 200 or 300 miles away on a mountain or in the desert and the urban denizens could not care less how much emissions they make. Just so long as they do not have to breath it.

You have not been listening, have you? My dealership says that since Gen 2 of Toyota hybrids, they have NEVER replaced a battery. And do not expect to for the life of the vehicle.

Coming soon to a once free country near you.

It's free if you have a $100k windmill.

And a plant is being built now in Ontario that will recycle and re-use the chemicals and metals in the EV (including hybrid) batteries when they do need replacing.
RB

But Rocky, What do they consider "life of the vehicle"?

I am not the only person around to purchase 20 year old vehicles with 150,000 miles on them. I expect to get another 15 to 20 years and another 150 to 200K in miles.

What is their actual warranty on the battery?

In Commyfornia they are charging us 51 cents a kilowatt at certain times of the day from 5pm--9pm
and we have rolling black outs when ever the Gooberment wants to shut things down.

People need to think about that when they buy an EV.

From the link I posted earlier....

A single battery providing a useful driving range weighs about 1,000 pounds. Providing the refined minerals needed to fabricate a single EV battery requires the mining, moving, and processing of more than 500,000 pounds of materials somewhere on the planet.

https://www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-reality-check

Not going to change your mind or mine. I go on many hunting trips per year. I haul lots of equipment, coolers, dead animals etc. and I often hit the road and drive 4-800 miles a day. Small vehicles won’t haul what I need to haul and an e vehicle would take multiple extra days to get to and from. When an e vehicle will haul what I need hauled and can run 800 miles on a charge in cool/cold weather and be as economical as gas, I’ll buy one.

What will be the cost of recycling the batteries? That cost will get passed to the owners of the e vehicle, or maybe some kind of tax on all of us.

First, my bad. The Windsor, Ontario site lost out to NC, which is where the plant is being built. This is hearsay, but a Prius-owning friend says that the cost of a replacement battery will be about $2K, with a trade-in of the old one. That'll be a cost about once a decade.
RB

Among a whole lot more. Another classic 'fire thread as the site continues to dumb down.

I read an article from Popular Mechanics or Popular Science a while back. They checked out a 10 year old Toyota Pruis hybrid. The batterys lost a little over a 10 year period, but it was still in the high 90% range of charging. I think this Prius had over 150,000 miles on it. Not bad. It could go about 45 miles on electric without the engine. Good for commuting and doing various shopping chores for most Americans. Larger hybrids have more battery space and usually longer electric only range.

I think hybrids are a good compromise for the next 10-20 years. Gets high gasoline mileage and saves for around town driving. Grid is the problem.

I also read that going full throttle to change the grid is not going to happen for at least 60 years. Full throttle "green new deal" will take the next 25 years to install enough windmills and solar panels and hydro dams to get to 44% renewable power. We would still need 31% natural gas and the rest nuclear just to replace coal fired plants. So it would take another 25-30 years just to replace natural gas. Not going to happen overnight. Same is true with electrics. Hybrids now, then full electrics when they get newer better batteries and faster charging times.

Several years ago, and they are still working on this, they thought graphine capacitor batteries would allow fast charging. They do, but trying to get slow release of power from a capacitor to run a car is hard to do. Giant capacitors can charge in just a few minutes, but they want to release the same way. If they could master this, it would make capacitor batteries fast charging and cheap to build. Iron batteries are now being studied. Far cheaper than lithium cobalt or nickel. Still have more battery work.

We wont need gas or nuclear once the price of coal comes down.

Too, there are alternatives for less-than-rural folk to owning a pu. Utility trailers for light-to-medium weight hauling, and rental trucks for the time or two each year when they are what's needed. I live way out in the boondocks and have lived without a pu for over a decade, so I know it can be done without undue inconvenience.
RB

The Western world is too propagandized and brainwashed to allow it.

RV outlets are 110v not 220

Really? Do you need photos of the four prong receptacles, cords, and breakers feeding them?

You do understand that two separate legs of 110 makes a 220 outlet, whether you actually use it as a 220 or as two 110s in the trailer.

Here's a pic from Camping World of a 50 amp 220 cord. You can click on it.

[img]https://www.campingworld.com/dw/ima...ges/large/095704_1.jpg?sw=800&sh=800[/img]

Rocky, you're describing a serial hybrid system. All hybrid Toyotas until present are parallel hybrid systems. The IC engine is directly connected to the wheels, with an electric motor able to drive them as well. The EM is not mounted at the wheels, but drives through the standard IC drivetrain.

I know it's unlikely you'll see this, or if you do you'll ignore it, just as the last time I pointed it out to you. But at least everyone else reading this after my post won't be misinformed. And yes, the IC engine is high tech, I know it runs on Atkinson cycle, but am not sure if it can cycle between Otto and Atkinson cycle, as some engines are capable of doing.

We have a 2021 pacifica hybrid that can go 32 miles on a battery charge before the gas v6 kicks in. I thought it was a gimmick and was reluctant to buy it but it had the features and colors we wanted and a $7500 tax credit. We just did our taxes and the credit helped a bunch.

The 32 mile range has worked out better than I thought. Is about enough for my wife to make it to work and back or make a run to town and back without using much gas. If we aren't going on a trip we can sometimes go almost a month without fueling up. We took a road trip to lava hot springs today and it got 29.5 mpg on gas at 84 mph so it does ok on fuel alone. Sometimes after mostly short trips using electricity it will show about 58 mpg and. I have 7.6 kwatts of solar on my house bug adding the can means I still get a power bill most months. When gas was $2 it seemed close to a wash. At $4 gas the electricity is cheaper.

Bb

Exactly. The big dollars on transportation have always been spent at the dealership, not the gas pump. Depreciation is a bitch, or always has been until these unprecedented times of not being able to readily buy new vehicles because of supply chain problems.

I'm thinking a beater pick up truck will beat an EV even at today's gas prices on total cost to go 100K miles, and pretty badly.

Scott, I have watched two videos which describe the system in different ways. So if I'm confused, so are a lot of other people - some of them Toyota service people.

Whichever. The facts are that Toyota does it in a very high-tech way. Their hybrid cars are powered by both a gas engine and an electric motor in varying ways depending on the driving situation, and the battery in them is claimed to never need replacement. And their regular hybrids never need to be plugged in.

(They do have plug-in hybrids, also, but I know even less about those.)

My OP is about a plug-in. It's about the same as a regular hybrid but you can plug it in when you're not driving to get a full charge without burning any gas at all in the car. If you don't run over 42 miles between charges, the gas motor won't run at all.

Our daughter lives in Portland, OR. Their electric rates are variable. Off peak is between 10pm and 6am. Its 4.13/kwh. On peak is a killer - 20.5 cents/kwh. You can save a lot by plugging it in before you go to bed. I don't know what happens if it's plugged in all night. I assume it has a shutoff to prevent overcharging but that's a guess.

edited: I looked it up. It won't overcharge. It'll kick into a maintenance mode to keep the battery topped off indefinitely.

Rocky, if you’ve even seen the drive belt setup on a snowmobile or a UTV, that’s how a hybrid gas motor puts power to the wheels. The electric motor runs alongside, with the two putting power to the wheels and the battery depending on the needs at the moment.

https://powersportsguide.com/how-does-a-snowmobile-clutch-work/

No, I have never laid eyes on a snowmobile belt system. Nor do I really need to know if our Highlander Hybrid is a serial, parallel, or transsexual system.

What I do know is that there are whole lot of people who believe things that simply are not true. Or at least are no longer true - about hybrids.

I agree. I have a Prius and love it.

It does exactly what I need it to do - provide me with reliable transportation to drive 35K a year for about 12 cents/mile fuel cost (up to 20 with recent price hikes). I have an SUV and trailer for hauling what needs hauling but it’s mostly used by Slavyanka for running around town (she prefers the bigger vehicle anyway).

Can you read and comprehend what I wrote about green energy destroying our economy. Replacing batteries is a tiny part of the cost of green energy.

That's how a CVT works that many makers use. Toyota doesn't use that system, theirs is much more high tech.

BC30cal's link explains the Toyota system.

What chap's my butt is how useless the late model, 4 door "pickups" are to haul stuff. When I need to go get pipe, I take the minivan, at least I can strap it to the roof rack and get it home. Hopeless in a pickup with a 4.5' bed, even for 10' "home depot" length sticks. Ditto with 2x4's. Try putting a couple of 12' sticks of lumber in the back of a pickup. Yup, trailer time.

And let's not get started on payload. My minivan has a higher payload than my buddy's 1500 ecodiesel....

Everyone is listening,! Where do the batteries go when the car is wrecked. What happens when the battery is smashed in an accident. What dealers do, and what happens elsewhere are different. That said I am thinking of a Tesla for the wifes next auto. If I can convince her she doesn't need a SUV, the size she drives now! I'll keep driving my old duramax.

Saw a guy driving the Mustang e-pony when i went to fill a bbq tank.

He says it’s his wife’s, he prefers the truck. It gets about 250 miles to a charge and a charge is $5

So where do we find these "cheap daily driver" EVs?

How long will thosebatteries last when (if) they are put in 400-500 mile range vehicles in Montana, Alaska and used for towing? Still 100K miles is nothing. Many of us would have a throw away EV after four years.

Interesting. I have none of those issues with my $5,000 2002 GMC

Many of the newer 1/2 tons have a higher payload than my '08 Dodge 2500. I do have an 8' bed, though.

My sister has been on the Prius train for years. I know she's gone through a couple, but don't know the reasons why she's moved from one vehicle to another. I know she's driving a 2nd generation right now, that she purchased used, and probably has a buttload of miles on it. If it was a matter of just putting in a rebuilt battery, she'd have gone that route, so I'm assuming her 1st gen just had too many issues besides a battery, and hence her move to a 2nd generation, and then on to the one she's driving now.

Here's a pretty decent schematic of the system. It does show the 4 different modes - electric only, electric/gas, battery recharge, and regenerative braking. Note that all power to and from the driving wheels goes through the transaxle that's coupled to the engine.

hyrid drive power flows

edit: well, that image won't load, you'll have to click on the link. Here's one that shows the system putting all power (EM and IC) through the transaxle, but without the 4 modes.

Do the electric motors do the braking or does the vehicle rely on conventional braking?

This^^^ does seem to go unpublished.

Back when gas cost $2.75 a gallon, my brother said the electricity to run his Tesla cost half of what gasoline cost.

Cold weather has got to badly limit the range of the Tesla, running that heater on electricity.
Battery life is the big question. Supposedly it will last ten years, we will see.

At least on the Prius (I can't speak for any others), it's both. You can drive in regen mode where any time you let off the accel. pedal, regenerative braking occurs. But regular disc-brakes are available and won't feel any different than a non-hybrid when braking.

RVs are 50 amp 110 or 120 VAC, not 220. It will burn them up. Ask me how I know. I realize it has 4 prongs. Wire it 220 and it will fry your inverter, appliances etc. There is nothing on an RV that needs 220 volts in the US.

That"s pretty funny.

What do you think the fourth prong is for on the plug in.
One 120 leg A.
One 120 leg B.
One neutral.
And one safety ground.

Whether your RV actually uses the two 120 legs in series to make 220, or whether the trailer simply uses it as two 120 V suply lines is not relevant. Put your volt meter across those two 120 volt recepticles. It will read 220-240 volts.

It is a 220 V service, whether it is used that way or as two 120s.

The daughter's 36 foot trailer has been plugged in at the pump house for two years. It is fed by a fifty amp double pole 220 V breaker.

Funny thing, it has not burned down yet.