Havre's electric school buses faring well in Montana’s frigid winter weather
Jan 26, 2024 HAVRE — In January of 2023, Havre Public Schools added two electric school buses to their fleet.
The two buses in the Havre Public Schools' fleet are entirely electric, becoming the first fully-electric buses to be used in Montana according to service attendant Allen "Woody" Woodwick.
He says it was about a year's process, after HPS was awarded a grant for two buses, and they have proven to be efficient.
The grant, from the Montana Department of Environmental Quality, provided most of the funding. Woodwick said the grant came from a settlement with Volkswagen and HPS payed about $120,000 out of their pocket for the buses, while the grant covered the other 85% of the cost.
"That's less than the price of one diesel bus," Woodwick said. "They're going around 130,000 to 140,000 dollars for a diesel bus."
After a year of operation, Havre Public Schools are pleased with how they have performed, even in extreme weather such as the sub-zero stretch earlier this month.
"It only takes a few hours to get a full charge. No oil changes, no transmission filter for flushes, they don't go through as many brakes," Woodwick explained. "They have auxiliary heaters so they've stayed warm through when it was 30 below. And when we had a lot of problems with our diesel busses gelling up and freezing up, these didn't.
“They do very well,” Woody Woodwick, the Service Attendant for Havre Public Schools said, “They stay warm, and they have a great traction control system, so they're very surefooted on the ice.” In the year that the buses have been in service, they have required very little maintenance, helped in large part because they do not require engine maintenance.
“That's one of the big cost savings, is there's no oil change, there's no transmission flush,” Woodwick said, “And there is a little bit of grease involved because it has regular driveshaft, regular bearings and regular bus wheels and everything like that, but just virtually none of the engine maintenance.”
The buses also save on brakes via regenerative braking. When slowing down, the motors run backward, causing less wear on the brake pads and generating energy back into the vehicle for more use.
The vehicles have performed well enough that Havre is working to add two more electric buses to their fleet.
“We’re in the process of doing two more right now,” Woodwick said, “Two more on the ground… I don’t see a full fleet of them right now. Our fleet is a mixture of gasoline, diesel and electric. And then four coach buses for down the road for the long trips. But it's just a good tool to have in the toolbox.”
Driving through the deep snow does take off some distance, but Woodwick feels that it is not any different from a gas-powered vehicle using more fuel to power through snow.
Furthermore, the electric buses are noticeably cheaper per mile.
“The diesel busses are going down the road for about $0.56 a mile,” Woodwick said, “Our gasoline busses are close to $0.80 a mile. And these are about $0.23 a mile.”
Pat Trumpour drives the rural route and has been driving for about seven years. He said over the phone that his biggest question going in was the differences between electric and a normal bus. He's found very little difference thus far.
"Very little difference as far as driving it," Trumpour said. "There's a lot of the same as the regular bus. I like it. It's certainly quieter. Works just as well as diesel. It's got as much power, at least as much, if not more than some of them. They're definitely a lot cheaper to run."
"We've had a handful of other other towns get a hold of us and ask us how they're doing. So far, we've we've had good responses with them and so far they're working out good. And I think we'll see a bunch more of them."
So it's "cheaper" because they only paid for 15% of it? Meaning the rest of us paid for the other 85%. It's no wonder our .gov educational system is an international joke.
So it's "cheaper" because they only paid for 15% of it? Meaning the rest of us paid for the other 85%. It's no wonder our .gov educational system is an international joke.
And there's the catch, bend the #'s to match the agenda.
The brake thing is real, they have "auxiliary " heaters , which do not use the batteries, The buses must cost around 600000 dollars , so at.23$ savings per mile it would take just 2 million miles to break even.
So without the gift it would have cost US $800 000.00 for the two buses...sounds like .23 cents per mile is stretching the truth somewhat.
At 200 000 mile life span that is US $2.00 per mile each vehicle without running costs. Want to take a guess on whether they will reach 200 000 miles each.
The brake thing is real, they have "auxiliary " heaters , which do not use the batteries, The buses must cost around 600000 dollars , so at.23$ savings per mile it would take just 2 million miles to break even.
How can you have an aux heater on an electric vehicle that doesn't use batteries?
The brake thing is real, they have "auxiliary " heaters , which do not use the batteries, The buses must cost around 600000 dollars , so at.23$ savings per mile it would take just 2 million miles to break even.
How can you have an aux heater on an electric vehicle that doesn't use batteries?
I believe some Teslas have achieved this wonderous feat.
I believe that part, when you turn an electric motor into a generator it'll act like a jake brake on a diesel by providing resistance to the wheels.
Yes but injection braking uses power from the battery and dynamic isn't easy to control. But maybe that dynamic tech has advanced enough they are using it on these to get them to a fairly slow speed before the friction brakes take over.
The brake thing is real, they have "auxiliary " heaters , which do not use the batteries, The buses must cost around 600000 dollars , so at.23$ savings per mile it would take just 2 million miles to break even.
How can you have an aux heater on an electric vehicle that doesn't use batteries?
I believe some Teslas have achieved this wonderous feat.
I think all schools have educated staff to fudge the numbers on everything. Good example I saw, bus rider count day recruitment. Get as many people possible on the buses on the official count day for funding. Normally less than half that regular riders. Or don't make facility repairs for years to make levy appear more urgent. Even worse these might be friends, family, or neighbors. Guess it's human nature cause it's still working.
Yeah...remember when VW was falsifying NOx numbers or something?
Your link didn't work Jeff.
It takes a copy and paste for me but it may be stored in my cache. Idunno.
I don't think many would appreciate the information since it undermines what they want to belive is true.
The short of it is Volkswagen paid billions in EPA fines for violations of the Clean Air Act and that is the money Havre used to buy their cost saving electric buses.
It wasn't tax payers funds.
Some savvy guys there in Havre taking advantage of such funds to better their small rural community.
So it's "cheaper" because they only paid for 15% of it? Meaning the rest of us paid for the other 85%. It's no wonder our .gov educational system is an international joke.
If they were having trouble with diesel busses in the cold they weren't maintaining them properly. Do they have barns to store busses in when not in use? Heaters in the busses are likely diesel fired. Woody didn't want to say that. Too early to say these were a good choice. The 23 cents per mile is way false! Not too many, if any, electric busses in Alaska!
If they were having trouble with diesel busses in the cold they weren't maintaining them properly. Do they have barns to store busses in when not in use? Heaters in the busses are likely diesel fired. Woody didn't want to say that. Too early to say these were a good choice. The 23 cents per mile is way false! Not too many, if any, electric busses in Alaska!
School buses maybe not, but there is at least one public trans bus that runs daily between the Matsu Valley and Anchorage. I haven’t heard squat about it for maintenance, but it’s only a couple of months old as well.
"Still, schools that upgrade their diesel buses for electric models can sometimes do so for low or no cost, Bettis said, since the various governments requiring work fleets to get cleaner are providing some funding to make the transition possible. On top of the EPA's $5 billion, states like California and Colorado have their own incentive programs, and there was more money in the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), Bettis said.
"If you can get $60,000 for this bus, for example, in California, and another $40,000 from the IRA, you're looking at $100,000 off a $225,000 bus," he said. "You can get down pretty close to price parity just with those two things. And there's no shortage of any of that money.""
Their creative math is astounding. Upgrade and do so for Low or No cost? If they were to finish the sentence it would say "low or no cost to the school district budget but we'll be pulling the funds from taxes and the IRA program that again are paid for by you, the taxpayer..
Since the Government has no money of it's own, the low cost is going to be subsidized by taxpayers. Isn't it nice to have new things that cost little or nothing?!
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
They are getting there, first one started picking up kids in 2020.
Tok's first year review in 2021.
Alaska’s electric school bus in the extreme cold
Alaska got its very first electric school bus. Here’s how the first and only electric school bus in The Last Frontier is running just over a year later.
In October 2020, Electrek reported that the state of Alaska got its very first electric school bus. Here’s how the first and only electric school bus in The Last Frontier is running just over a year later.
Alaska’s electric school bus in the extreme cold
The electric school bus, which was built by Thomas Built Buses in North Carolina, is picking up and dropping off kids in the town of Tok in the Tanana Valley, in eastern Alaska. The $400,000 bus cost $50,000 because an Alaska Energy Authority program covered the rest of the cost.
Tok Transportation bought the bus with an Alaskan Energy Authority grant, and it replaced one of seven diesel school buses in the town.
The electric school bus is kept in a bus barn and charged by solar panels on the bus barn that were purchased with grant money, and also with power from the local utility company.
Tok Transportation co-owner Gerald Blackard explained how the electric school bus is performing in extreme cold temperatures:
It has not missed a single day of school.
What we found out is the bus heated well. It kept the interior at normal temperature.
Even with a little bit of insulation on the batteries and kind of covering up the engine compartment, to try to hold in as much heat as we could, we were still using more energy to heat the bus than we were to drive the bus.
On January 27, we had 38 below.
The bus’ efficiency that day was 3.46 kilowatts per mile. So this fall, in August-September, we were running between 1.4 and 1.7 kilowatts per mile.
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
Propane or NG would work about as well, cost less. EV has its’ place, but not a cure all.
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
A leftist lie to forward an agenda, relying upon those who hear the news to just accept it without critical thought?
Ever heard of a Telma electric retarders? No friction so they don't wear on anything. We had them on out fire engines and I don't ever recall one wearing out. His claim makes sense.
So it's "cheaper" because they only paid for 15% of it? Meaning the rest of us paid for the other 85%. It's no wonder our .gov educational system is an international joke.
I wonder what a battery replacement would cost? That should be figured into the cost per mile to operate. If they can make it work, great, but don’t BS us on the cost. When the biden administration is involved I’m afraid you won’t get the facts or the truth.
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
Propane or NG would work about as well, cost less. EV has its’ place, but not a cure all.
we should be using all forms of energy, it doesn't need to be one way or no way....bob
$5 million loss for Asheville as flawed electric buses sit idle by Kimberly KingThu, January 18th 2024
JAN. 18, 2024 - Asheville spent about $1 million each for five electric buses in 2018, but software and/or mechanical issues have made them an expensive and disappointing purchase, city staff say. (Photo credit: WLOS staff)
ASHEVILLE, N.C. (WLOS) — The city of Asheville's purchase of five electric buses in 2018 has turned into a multi-million-dollar loss. The buses have been broken or unable to run because of software and/or mechanical issues, making them an expensive and disappointing purchase, according to city maintenance and transportation staff.
Currently, three of the five buses are idled, with one that has had a broken double door since July.
“We haven’t been able to get new doors,” Asheville's interim transportation director Jessica Morriss said. “There's no third party that makes a door. We'd have to get custom-made doors.”
Each of the buses cost the city $616,796-plus. Morriss said additional costs included more than $200,000 for the infrastructure for each charger, $118,000 annually for the contract to lease batteries for the buses and $45,481 for annual electric charges.
“I think if you added that altogether, I think, probably $900,000 to $1 million is what each one cost. And, since then, we've had to invest additional money into maintaining them and fixing them," Morriss said.
Morriss said maintenance costs have been an additional $251,000, which includes replacing the traction drive controls, or electric motors, for all of the buses.
Maintenance director John McDaniel said several of the buses also had to have their power inverters replaced at $14,000 each.
“The last couple of years have been particularly difficult,” Morriss said. “We don’t see an end in sight. Proterra, the manufacturer, has since filed for bankruptcy.”
She said it’s impossible to get parts for the idled buses.
“Since June 2023, we have had numerous issues with vehicles out of service for weeks and months," Morriss said.
Of the two buses that are running, the other big issue is the limited distance they can go, which in winter is about 78 miles. McDaniel said that’s about three trips to the airport. Then, the bus has to come back and charge at the garage on West Haywood Street for hours, he said.
Another issue is the buses get cold overnight and it eats into a large part of the charge to heat them before they leave the garage.
Morris said the downed electric buses have also put a strain on the city's operating fleet of 32 buses. She said those buses -- a combination of biodiesel and hybrids -- are being run more because the electric buses have been down so often.
“There's some lessons here for sure. We're pressing pause on investing in any electric technology until we can assure the products we get are going to be able to work," Morris said.
"Still, schools that upgrade their diesel buses for electric models can sometimes do so for low or no cost, Bettis said, since the various governments requiring work fleets to get cleaner are providing some funding to make the transition possible. On top of the EPA's $5 billion, states like California and Colorado have their own incentive programs, and there was more money in the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), Bettis said.
"If you can get $60,000 for this bus, for example, in California, and another $40,000 from the IRA, you're looking at $100,000 off a $225,000 bus," he said. "You can get down pretty close to price parity just with those two things. And there's no shortage of any of that money.""
Their creative math is astounding. Upgrade and do so for Low or No cost? If they were to finish the sentence it would say "low or no cost to the school district budget but we'll be pulling the funds from taxes and the IRA program that again are paid for by you, the taxpayer..
Since the Government has no money of it's own, the low cost is going to be subsidized by taxpayers. Isn't it nice to have new things that cost little or nothing?!
The Irish Republican Army is pushing electric buses in the USA now? Wow!
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
Propane or NG would work about as well, cost less. EV has its’ place, but not a cure all.
we should be using all forms of energy, it doesn't need to be one way or no way....bob
No.
I only want my energy to come at the expense of thousands of American servicemen.
There isn't enough war in electric to suit Americans yet.
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
Propane or NG would work about as well, cost less. EV has its’ place, but not a cure all.
we should be using all forms of energy, it doesn't need to be one way or no way....bob
No.
I only want my energy to come at the expense of thousands of American servicemen.
There isn't enough war in electric to suit Americans yet.
That will probably change though...
Who controls many of these materials currently going into batteries?? Hint: It ain’t us.
lets see. VW pays billions in fines. fines used to subsidize EV busses. VW has to get those billions somehow. VW raises per unit cost by 10k and some don't think its all coming out of our pockets.
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
Propane or NG would work about as well, cost less. EV has its’ place, but not a cure all.
we should be using all forms of energy, it doesn't need to be one way or no way....bob
No.
I only want my energy to come at the expense of thousands of American servicemen.
There isn't enough war in electric to suit Americans yet.
That will probably change though...
Who controls many of these materials currently going into batteries?? Hint: It ain’t us.
How much LP and NG are we importing??
I know! It's exciting.
Soon we can start bombing and shooting people over lithium!
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
Propane or NG would work about as well, cost less. EV has its’ place, but not a cure all.
we should be using all forms of energy, it doesn't need to be one way or no way....bob
No.
I only want my energy to come at the expense of thousands of American servicemen.
There isn't enough war in electric to suit Americans yet.
That will probably change though...
Who controls many of these materials currently going into batteries?? Hint: It ain’t us.
How much LP and NG are we importing??
I know! It's exciting.
Soon we can start bombing and shooting people over lithium!
$5 million loss for Asheville as flawed electric buses sit idle by Kimberly KingThu, January 18th 2024
JAN. 18, 2024 - Asheville spent about $1 million each for five electric buses in 2018, but software and/or mechanical issues have made them an expensive and disappointing purchase, city staff say. (Photo credit: WLOS staff)
ASHEVILLE, N.C. (WLOS) — The city of Asheville's purchase of five electric buses in 2018 has turned into a multi-million-dollar loss. The buses have been broken or unable to run because of software and/or mechanical issues, making them an expensive and disappointing purchase, according to city maintenance and transportation staff.
Currently, three of the five buses are idled, with one that has had a broken double door since July.
“We haven’t been able to get new doors,” Asheville's interim transportation director Jessica Morriss said. “There's no third party that makes a door. We'd have to get custom-made doors.”
Each of the buses cost the city $616,796-plus. Morriss said additional costs included more than $200,000 for the infrastructure for each charger, $118,000 annually for the contract to lease batteries for the buses and $45,481 for annual electric charges.
“I think if you added that altogether, I think, probably $900,000 to $1 million is what each one cost. And, since then, we've had to invest additional money into maintaining them and fixing them," Morriss said.
Morriss said maintenance costs have been an additional $251,000, which includes replacing the traction drive controls, or electric motors, for all of the buses.
Maintenance director John McDaniel said several of the buses also had to have their power inverters replaced at $14,000 each.
“The last couple of years have been particularly difficult,” Morriss said. “We don’t see an end in sight. Proterra, the manufacturer, has since filed for bankruptcy.”
She said it’s impossible to get parts for the idled buses.
“Since June 2023, we have had numerous issues with vehicles out of service for weeks and months," Morriss said.
Of the two buses that are running, the other big issue is the limited distance they can go, which in winter is about 78 miles. McDaniel said that’s about three trips to the airport. Then, the bus has to come back and charge at the garage on West Haywood Street for hours, he said.
Another issue is the buses get cold overnight and it eats into a large part of the charge to heat them before they leave the garage.
Morris said the downed electric buses have also put a strain on the city's operating fleet of 32 buses. She said those buses -- a combination of biodiesel and hybrids -- are being run more because the electric buses have been down so often.
“There's some lessons here for sure. We're pressing pause on investing in any electric technology until we can assure the products we get are going to be able to work," Morris said.
So it's "cheaper" because they only paid for 15% of it? Meaning the rest of us paid for the other 85%. It's no wonder our .gov educational system is an international joke.
Some of you seem to believe that if a vehicle can't tow a four-horse trailer at 80 mph for 400 miles, it's worthless.
It is true that for now at least, no electric vehicle can do that. But it doesn't mean that there's no place for electric vehicles.
Some of you also can't seem to read. The purchase of these two buses did save tax money, because the bulk of the funds didn't come from taxes. If you doubt the economy statements, can you offer any proof to the contrary other than "everybody knows..."?
Some of you seem to believe that if a vehicle can't tow a four-horse trailer at 80 mph for 400 miles, it's worthless.
It is true that for now at least, no electric vehicle can do that. But it doesn't mean that there's no place for electric vehicles.
Some of you also can't seem to read. The purchase of these two buses did save tax money, because the bulk of the funds didn't come from taxes. If you doubt the economy statements, can you offer any proof to the contrary other than "everybody knows..."?
I would be personally offended if I weren't forced to buy tens of thousands of dollars worth of oil and grease and fuel every year.
The short of it is Volkswagen paid billions in EPA fines for violations of the Clean Air Act and that is the money Havre used to buy their cost saving electric buses.
Because Volkswagen was polluting the air in Havre, MT. Or something like that.
It seems like Woody is forgetting to use the actual cost of the buses in his math. Otherwise school buses seem like a good match for EV tech, short routes and back to charge.
Propane or NG would work about as well, cost less. EV has its’ place, but not a cure all.
we should be using all forms of energy, it doesn't need to be one way or no way....bob
No.
I only want my energy to come at the expense of thousands of American servicemen.
There isn't enough war in electric to suit Americans yet.
That will probably change though...
Who controls many of these materials currently going into batteries?? Hint: It ain’t us.
How much LP and NG are we importing??
I know! It's exciting.
Soon we can start bombing and shooting people over lithium!
Soon we can start bombing and shooting people over lithium!
Australia has a lot of lithium, they'd be easy to kill they ain't got no guns.
It's kinda way over yonder though.
Yep, you can bomb our national capital in the Northern Territory, it is located on a really big rock. After a week we will surrender and you will spend the next fifty years rebuilding our entire nation from the ground up. You will put military bases here and we will all get rich selling American GI's bibles and hookers.
The short of it is Volkswagen paid billions in EPA fines for violations of the Clean Air Act and that is the money Havre used to buy their cost saving electric buses.
Because Volkswagen was polluting the air in Havre, MT. Or something like that.
Actually yes.
The money was partially divvied up based on how many of the cars they falsified emissions on were sold in each state.
Soon we can start bombing and shooting people over lithium!
Australia has a lot of lithium, they'd be easy to kill they ain't got no guns.
It's kinda way over yonder though.
Yep, you can bomb our national capital in the Northern Territory, it is located on a really big rock. After a week we will surrender and you will spend the next fifty years rebuilding our entire nation from the ground up. You will put military bases here and we will all get rich selling American GI's bibles and hookers.
Bring it on, we could use the coin.
50 years?
Please. Couple grass huts and a case of didgeridoos and some terrible beer...and you would quit asking for anything.
Hell...they told your ancestors they were just going for a nice little boat ride.....
Yep, you can bomb our national capital in the Northern Territory, it is located on a really big rock. After a week we will surrender and you will spend the next fifty years rebuilding our entire nation from the ground up. You will put military bases here and we will all get rich selling American GI's bibles and hookers.
Bring it on, we could use the coin.
Only the enlightened can see the silver lining in every cloud.
JeffA, et al, Tok is a stand alone town in interior Alaska. Not on a power grid. How do small isolated towns in Alaska generate power? Large diesel generators. In other words they have some of the most expensive power costs in the country. The solar panels info is BS. How much sunlight does an Alaskan town get in winter? Next to nothing. Even a sunny December day, they would be hard pressed to get 3 hours! I have 2120 watts of panels on my house above Fairbanks proper with a clear view of the sky. In other words, few trees or buildings blocking the sunlight. Those panels produce on average 2000 kwh per year. The solar array pictured I'm guessing is 10 to 12,000 watts. There is no way those panels produce enough power each day in the winter to recharge the bus battery. Toks bus lives in a heated barn, heated by expensive diesel fired heat. It's battery is charged by expensive diesel fired power. The whole video is filled with BS to hide the true cost.
Yep, you can bomb our national capital in the Northern Territory, it is located on a really big rock. After a week we will surrender and you will spend the next fifty years rebuilding our entire nation from the ground up. You will put military bases here and we will all get rich selling American GI's bibles and hookers.
Bring it on, we could use the coin.
Only the enlightened can see the silver lining in every cloud.
We also have a very good idea which of your politicians to bribe to keep it going indefinitely. A few kickbacks and Bob's your uncle...we will be rolling in it.
Yep, you can bomb our national capital in the Northern Territory, it is located on a really big rock. After a week we will surrender and you will spend the next fifty years rebuilding our entire nation from the ground up. You will put military bases here and we will all get rich selling American GI's bibles and hookers.
Bring it on, we could use the coin.
Only the enlightened can see the silver lining in every cloud.
We also have very good idea which of your politicians to bribe to keep it going indefinitely. A few kickbacks and Bob's your uncle...we will be rolling in it.
Will you then stop shìtting yourselves over China?
Will you then stop shìtting yourselves over China?
No need to worry about China, they want Taiwan first so your politicians will use every dirty trick they can to get you involved there...the Taiwanese also know who to bribe.
Will you then stop shìtting yourselves over China?
No need to worry about China, they want Taiwan first so your politicians will use every dirty trick they can to get you involved there...the Taiwanese also know who to bribe.
Isn't capitalism great!
Is that why you guys are building a sub base up there?
Is that why you guys are building a sub base up there?
China already has Taiwan.
If you think the labor clowns here could manage to build a reliable shithouse you are sadly mistaken. And the Taiwanese are tenacious in their defence, they have been skirmishing with the Chinese for quite some time.
Ever heard of a Telma electric retarders? No friction so they don't wear on anything. We had them on out fire engines and I don't ever recall one wearing out. His claim makes sense.
The short of it is Volkswagen paid billions in EPA fines for violations of the Clean Air Act and that is the money Havre used to buy their cost saving electric buses.
Because Volkswagen was polluting the air in Havre, MT. Or something like that.
Actually yes.
The money was partially divvied up based on how many of the cars they falsified emissions on were sold in each state.
How many in Havre? Zero? Oh.......
Commies get awfully creative when it comes to taking other peoples money. Look at you, you're as giddy as a schoolgirl with a new crush.
What car manufacture you gonna sue next to finance your boondoggles? Looks like the start of a pyramid scheme to keep the "free" money flowing.
Maybe those guys who make those Diesel Duallys? Bet there is a lot more of those in MT then Volkswagens. Pay dirt Buddy!!
Gawd...that's the scary thing though. It might just be feasible. We just don't want to have to publicly eat all that crow... Some of these old fuggers hope they die before the electric take over happens. Just so they don't have to admit they were wrong.
Jimmy's a full blown Globalist. He's already said his new Ukraine buddies "ain't so bad".
Now he's into electric skool buses and gubberment subsidies. Cause of Global Warming. Or something.
Strange things go'n on at the "High Line", huh.
Wait for them to come for his cows, tell him to eat bugs (and no fat), that'll be the acid test.
The brake thing is real, they have "auxiliary " heaters , which do not use the batteries, The buses must cost around 600000 dollars , so at.23$ savings per mile it would take just 2 million miles to break even.
How can you have an aux heater on an electric vehicle that doesn't use batteries?
I believe that part, when you turn an electric motor into a generator it'll act like a jake brake on a diesel by providing resistance to the wheels.
Yes but injection braking uses power from the battery and dynamic isn't easy to control. But maybe that dynamic tech has advanced enough they are using it on these to get them to a fairly slow speed before the friction brakes take over.
It is called regenerative braking and is very efficient.
Since 1985 until one year ago when I retired, I have been driving and supervising those who are driving electric fork trucks. Regenerative braking definitely saves the brake pads and does extend battery life.
But the guy who wrote this:
Quote
When slowing down, the motors run backward, causing less wear on the brake pads
has not a clue. The motor does become a generator, but nothing "runs backward".
The brake thing is real, they have "auxiliary " heaters , which do not use the batteries, The buses must cost around 600000 dollars , so at.23$ savings per mile it would take just 2 million miles to break even.
How can you have an aux heater on an electric vehicle that doesn't use batteries?
Yeah...remember when VW was falsifying NOx numbers or something?
Your link didn't work Jeff.
It takes a copy and paste for me but it may be stored in my cache. Idunno.
I don't think many would appreciate the information since it undermines what they want to belive is true.
The short of it is Volkswagen paid billions in EPA fines for violations of the Clean Air Act and that is the money Havre used to buy their cost saving electric buses.
It wasn't tax payers funds.
Some savvy guys there in Havre taking advantage of such funds to better their small rural community.
Uh yeah, those moneys could have as well gone into the general fund.
This reminds me of a discussion a few years ago with my supervisor at work who also was mayor of the small town (POP 3000) where the factory was located.
The city needed to do some sewer repair on the last street on the North end of town. The street was slums on the S side and farm fields on the N side with very limited traffic.
Still, we watched as the street was torn up, sewer lines replaced, new sidewalks installed on both sides, a forty foot lane built in each direction with sixteen feet reserved in the middle for curbed plantings. But then the city discovered they had no water rights available to irrigate those plantings, so the curbs were filled with 8 inch plus river rocks. Which of course must be sprayed intermittently to control weeds.
One day I mentioned to the Mayor what a waste of money it had all been. "Oh we did not pay for it. We got a federal grant!"
He did not smile when I replied that was still tax dollars, and I personally did not like seeing them wasted in such manner.
People do spend other people's money quite frivolously. Without 85% federal funding, you would not find an electric school bus in America.
Yeah...remember when VW was falsifying NOx numbers or something?
Your link didn't work Jeff.
It takes a copy and paste for me but it may be stored in my cache. Idunno.
I don't think many would appreciate the information since it undermines what they want to belive is true.
The short of it is Volkswagen paid billions in EPA fines for violations of the Clean Air Act and that is the money Havre used to buy their cost saving electric buses.
It wasn't tax payers funds.
Some savvy guys there in Havre taking advantage of such funds to better their small rural community.
Uh yeah, those moneys could have as well gone into the general fund.
This reminds me of a discussion a few years ago with my supervisor at work who also was mayor of the small town (POP 3000) where the factory was located.
The city needed to do some sewer repair on the last street on the North end of town. The street was slums on the S side and farm fields on the N side with very limited traffic.
Still, we watched as the street was torn up, sewer lines replaced, new sidewalks installed on both sides, a forty foot lane built in each direction with sixteen feet reserved in the middle for curbed plantings. But then the city discovered they had no water rights available to irrigate those plantings, so the curbs were filled with 8 inch plus river rocks. Which of course must be sprayed intermittently to control weeds.
One day I mentioned to the Mayor what a waste of money it had all been. "Oh we did not pay for it. We got a federal grant!"
He did not smile when I replied that was still tax dollars, and I personally did not like seeing them wasted in such manner.
People do spend other people's money quite frivolously. Without 85% federal funding, you would not find an electric school bus in America.
Amen brother, I was an elected official of my previous HOA and some school teacher twit said we can get a grant to pay for that.... I laughed and said there is no free money... the twit said , yes the money is free... I replied , I am a small business owner and the IRS treats me like an ATM machine, somebody pays.... she was confused by my answer... lmao
People do spend other people's money quite frivolously. Without 85% federal funding, you would not find an electric school bus in America.
Right on, Shooter.
You have no idea unless you have worked for the state of Louisiana. And the Republican administrations were the worst, believe it or not. As someone once said "another man's money is easy to spend''.
What it appears the simpletons can't quit grasp is these electric buses and the like are the ONLY things these funds are allowed to be spent on.
Volkswagen, a German car manufacturer, paid billions in EPA fines.
There were court ordered requirements as to how the funds from these fines could be spent. One requirement of the settlement was that VW must create a National Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Investment Plan and spend $2 billion on ZEV infrastructure and programs and brand neutral media activities aimed at increasing public awareness of zero emission vehicles. The amount will be divided between California ($800 million) and the rest of the U.S. ($1.2 billion).
This 2 billion $'s was only a small portion of the Volkswagen/EPA settlement.
I know, I know this requires reading and paying attention to MORE than your favorite talking head on TV, life's not always fair.
So sumbuddy up there along the highline in Havre Montana was payin' attention and saw the portion of these ZEV funds allocated for Montana just layin' there like a sitting duck in a trust fund growing mold.
So, obviously the idea of applying for this FREE TO THE TAXPAYERS MONEY to buy a couple zero emissions school buses for their podunk little Montana Town came to mind.
How long would it take an intelligent Congress to change the law, and move those funds into the general fund?
They did it to Social Security.
It is an agenda driven policy, and it is just a small sample of such which is bankrupting the nation. But nothing compared to the sewer funneling into Ukraine.
The DEQ is practically begging MT schools to take the $375,000 per bus, up to two buses. As far as I know, Havre is the only school that has bit. Somehow I doubt that these electric outfits would hold up to an 80 mile, round trip, route on the nastiest gumbo roads in Montana. It's either choking dust, wet gumbo, icy, snowy, or some combination. That electric bus would be toast before a year was out.
Bigfork School Board authorizes purchase of electric bus
January 20, 2023 Bigfork Schools are taking advantage of a grant which aims to help districts move towards clean energy buses.
The Bigfork School Board on Jan. 11 unanimously approved the purchase of an electric bus. The district was awarded $375,000 for an electric bus in 2022 through the Environmental Protection Agency’s Clean School Bus Program.
Transportation Director Danny Walker said after researching a few different electric bus companies, he recommended purchasing a 71-passenger bus from Lion Electric. The cost of the bus matches the grant they received and the charging infrastructure would cost $20,370. Walker said the EPA program would cover $20,000 of the cost of the charging infrastructure, leaving the district with an out-of-pocket cost of $370.
Walker said a requirement to receive the grant is to take one of the diesel buses entirely off the road. The district selected a 2010 Bluebird bus with 105,000 miles on it to be removed from its fleet.
“It goes to Treasure State (metal recycling) where they cut the frame in half, show documentation that is disabled and they punch a hole in the block … Then it will probably go into the junkyard across the street from them for parts,” Walker said.
Walker estimates the district should be receiving the bus this summer. The bus is expected to include an extended stop arm, cameras, seat belts and Onspot chains.
Superintendent Tom Stack said Walker visited Havre School District, which recently purchased two of the same buses which ran well during December’s cold snap.
“They ran them when it was super cold for Christmas. It was minus 42 over there without a wind chill, they ran great — no issues,” Walker said.
Stack made this comparison to diesel buses, which can experience issues during frigid temperatures.
Board trustee Christina Relyea asked why he preferred Lion over International, another electric bus company with the same price point.
He said it came down to the build and the batteries — Lion started out producing electric buses, while International built diesel buses and is now converting them into electric.
For International, batteries are covered under an eight-year warranty but cost $100,000. Lion batteries cost $30,000.
Originally Posted by Transportation Director Danny Walker
Walker said a requirement to receive the grant is to take one of the diesel buses entirely off the road. The district selected a 2010 Bluebird bus with 105,000 miles on it to be removed from its fleet.
“It goes to Treasure State (metal recycling) where they cut the frame in half, show documentation that is disabled and they punch a hole in the block … Then it will probably go into the junkyard across the street from them for parts,” Walker said.
This is really a win win for these savvy schools that buy these awesome new electric buses.
They get to pick out and keep the buses they are required under the grant to take out of commission and use them for parts to service their fleets..
Its like hitting the daily double, the tax payers in another poor rural Mountaina community win again!
Three Montana school districts receiving funding for zero-emission electric buses
Oct 26, 2022 HELENA, Mont. - Three school districts in Montana are receiving funding for zero-emission electric buses.
Elementary schools in Bigfork, Clinton and Fairfield are receiving funding from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) Clean School Bus Program rebate competition.
Bigfork Elementary school will receive $2,765,000 for seven buses, Clinton Elementary School will receive $790,000 for two buses and Fairfield Elementary School will receive $395,000 for one bus.
A release from the EPA says 389 applications totaling $913 million have been selected.
Additional rounds of program funding are anticipated to launch in the coming months, and the EPA plans on making another $1 billion available for clean school buses in Fiscal Year 2023.
The guy in charge of the electric bus fleet in Asheville NC said their electric buses cost $1 million each. In the OP the guy said that a diesel bus costs only $140,000. Asheville bought 5 electric buses. Three of them have quit running. On the two that do work, they can run only 74 miles on a cold winter day before they have to go back to the garage for a lengthy recharge.
I don't know the range of a diesel bus but I can say that my old 18-wheeler got 7 mpg and I had 212 gallons of fuel on board. That truck could run 1,400 miles on a tank full, in summer, or in winter made no difference.
Asheville is Liberal Land. It doesn't mention this in the article I posted, but those greenies bought electric buses [with taxpayer dollars] to fight Climate Change. It is great to fight Climate Change with other people's money.
It is great to fight Climate Change with other people's money.
Ain't that the truth
My 12 year old grand daughter is being taught the evils of CO2 at school. So yesterday we stopped in front of one of our big trees on the place and had a lesson in photosynthesis and learned that that tree like all the plants that every animal and human depend on was built from carbon pulled from the air. I told her Death Valley had flooded twice lately and that the predicted super hurricanes haven't yet showed up.
I think I understand the climate agenda and it is not good for the proletariat.
Big question for me is how will it survive cold weather over time...
Supposedly Having a Tesla in some place like Montana, in the winter, you're driving range is cut by like 80%.
Don't plan on getting very far out of town...
Local bus company here bought 3 buses for around town service...its ran by the county...
They are costing a lot more than a diesel bus to operate, the repairs have been off the charts in expense. Read something about the break even point will take like 250 years...
The county isn't expected to be buying ANY MORE of them.
The guy in charge of the electric bus fleet in Asheville NC said their electric buses cost $1 million each. In the OP the guy said that a diesel bus costs only $140,000. Asheville bought 5 electric buses. Three of them have quit running. On the two that do work, they can run only 74 miles on a cold winter day before they have to go back to the garage for a lengthy recharge.
I don't know the range of a diesel bus but I can say that my old 18-wheeler got 7 mpg and I had 212 gallons of fuel on board. That truck could run 1,400 miles on a tank full, in summer, or in winter made no difference.
Asheville is Liberal Land. It doesn't mention this in the article I posted, but those greenies bought electric buses [with taxpayer dollars] to fight Climate Change. It is great to fight Climate Change with other people's money.
and we are talking winter weather in North Carolina... where anyone knows Montana is much worse for cold weather...
anything about electric buses or other vehicles, they only tell everyone, what they want everyone else to think.. Think Baghdad Bob.... Wonder where he went? He's stateside, and head of Marketing for an electric Bus manufacturer.
It is called regenerative braking and is very efficient.
Since 1985 until one year ago when I retired, I have been driving and supervising those who are driving electric fork trucks. Regenerative braking definitely saves the brake pads and does extend battery life..
Good to know thanks.
Every passenger EV owner I have spoken to told me they go through brakes and tires faster, which was simply due to their weight, but must be a difference in the effectiveness of regenerative braking between them and something the size of a bus. I read that most electric cranes use it to do all dynamic braking but wasn't aware it was that mature on road going stuff.
“Fighting climate change”. What a joke. The earth is still trying to recover from the last ice age. Glaciers aren’t permanent, permafrost isn’t permanent. The history of the planet is much warmer, hence all the vast resources of coal, oil and gas. The periods of cold on the planet that led to various ice ages were due to natural disasters, mainly the asteroid strikes and volcanic eruptions.
The guy in charge of the electric bus fleet in Asheville NC said their electric buses cost $1 million each. In the OP the guy said that a diesel bus costs only $140,000. Asheville bought 5 electric buses. Three of them have quit running. On the two that do work, they can run only 74 miles on a cold winter day before they have to go back to the garage for a lengthy recharge.
I don't know the range of a diesel bus but I can say that my old 18-wheeler got 7 mpg and I had 212 gallons of fuel on board. That truck could run 1,400 miles on a tank full, in summer, or in winter made no difference.
Asheville is Liberal Land. It doesn't mention this in the article I posted, but those greenies bought electric buses [with taxpayer dollars] to fight Climate Change. It is great to fight Climate Change with other people's money.
Asheville is slap full of some of the dumbest people on the planet.
If it’s possible to fugk something up, Asheville will surely manage it.
Alright, I stepped in it this time. Usually I'm the one marveling at reading comprehension on the 'fire, and as usually happens karma will circle around and bite you in the ass. I missed the part where the busses were subsidized by the VW settlement and not taxpayer funding as most grants are. I'll own it. The overriding point was that the busses are "cheaper" , but only because they are heavily, heavily subsidized. Is the maintenance subsidized? Or do we pay that in taxes? Replacement parts? Electrical bill? How about rising electrical rates we all pay (and will continue to pay as demand and infrastructure demands continue to rise). Will the bus replacement cost be subsidized as well? I gaurantee the replacement cost wasn't factored in to the cost per mile, which is how most non .gov (businesses) have to do it. Also, at present, EV's have little to no secondary market value. Again, not factored in to cost per mile. Bottom line is the only way the math works is because someone else is footing a vast majority of the bill. Sooner or later, that someone else will undoubtedly be the American taxpayer. Truly good ideas don't require subsidies.
Thankfully, the now bankrupt Proterra bus manufacturer sold flawed, early, beta stage battery powered electric buses.
They sold them for outrageous amounts of money due to limited orders and production during the battery powered electric bus introduction to the market.
If it weren't for Proterras flawed early efforts the neigh sayers would have little to use as example for failed battery powered electric school buses.
Electric buses have been around now a lot longer than 7 or 8 years.
In 1940 Seattle had electric buses running 15 routes, with 174 buses operating on 68 miles of two-way parallel overhead lines.
Their electric buses claimed fame for being able to pull the hills in Seattle better than the diesel buses they also used.
The electric bus system there has had its ups and downs..
Ridership reached an all-time high 130 million riders in 1944.
After the war, ridership on the trolleybus system declined as many American families began purchasing automobiles.
Some of the early buses there were converted to operate on both diesel and electric (early hybrid), then back to 100% electric through the fuel shortages of the 1970s.
They've added new electric buses over the years..
But they still run a lot of their older electric buses that have been maintained and rebuilt over the years.
This one was 50 years old when this image was taken.
The bus in the video below was 77 years old when the video was filmed.
So, longevity? It's already proven.
The big difference today is the introduction of onboard batteries in lieu of dependence of overhead power lines.
So all this resistance to the concept of these electric buses is actually resistance of batteries.
Funny, when a city or some other entity gets a tax payer funded EV fleet, it's billed as the best thing since sliced bread. Farther down the road, when the problems start, they never publicize that. It just gets buried and they go on to the next great EV story. The only place I see stories about the disasters are in alternative media sources........I'm sure it's just an honest mistake.
JeffA; Top of the morning to you sir, I hope that wherever this finds you that it finds you well.
Thanks for the educational reading, there are a lot of layers to this story for sure.
As a kid who grew up in very rural Saskatchewan where I rode the school bus for 2 hours a day on every school day, I can somewhat imagine the rural Montana school districts requirements for a bus.
Without commenting on whether the power grid in that area can deal with the extra consumption, having a vehicle that only gets used for a couple hours, then can go on a charger for a few hours before being needed again makes some logical sense.
We see more and more plug in EVs here in central BC and talking to people who have them, the niche seems to be more for short commutes than say running 5 hours to the coast and back as they just can't do it without stopping for a charge half way.
While it's still early days for all of the battery and electronic components, I will say that Hybrid Toyota rigs are taking over the taxi industry out here and that makes sense - again barring what long term maintenance is going to look like.
For us in the more rural areas with longer trips, a hybrid system that isn't a maintenance nightmare holds some potential from what I can glean.
One of my friends and hunting partners and I often say if we had a hunting rig that'd run on battery all the way back down the mountain it's surely cut down on the annual hunting fuel bill.
As it stands now, both of us usually get a nice Thank You card from the local purveyor of diesel...
I’m not against EV in any/every instance, I just think that they are not the 100% solution (and maybe not even a 25% solution) they are being billed as……
Much of the technology (and certainly, the infrastructure) hasn’t even reached “half-baked”, yet.
5-S44-53-E39-W3683-HHFMnd yet folks I know who build Makc trucks tell me about the NYC contract they got for Electric garbage trucks say they cant get the batteries to last a half of a shift
It's also kind of interesting that we have gone from sticking our tongue on a 9 volt battery to Tesla Ludicrous mode in less time than it took to go from a tiller to a steering wheel on automobiles.
Jim; Top of the morning to you sir, I hope all is well with you and your fine family.
As you've said, the rate of change is staggering and the road getting there is full of potholes.
Speaking of which, a young fellow from Vancouver made the news last week when he hit a chunk of angle iron laying on the Coquihalla aka "Highway to Hell" filming area, with his one or two year old Hyundai EV.
The angle iron took out the battery, he needed to be towed and when it was taken to get repaired, the cost was going to be $62,000 and change, which was a wee bit more than a new one was worth.
Of course the news station had a field day with that, which prompted Hyundai Canada to fall all over itself saying "somebody" made a mistake on calculating the cost of the battery replacement, etc.
It did bring about some spirited discussion which isn't a bad thing.
All the best to you all Jim, here's to good weather for calving.
While there’s certainly room to question the longevity of current batteries, they’ve been using electric traction motors on trains for decades. If the batteries can hold up, the busses might run a lot longer than their hydro-carbon counterparts.
I’m not pro nor anti electric vehicles as choice. Can’t say I’m a big fan of any technology being foisted upon me from the Gov’t either direct mandate or through elimination of other options.
“Fighting climate change”. What a joke. The earth is still trying to recover from the last ice age. Glaciers aren’t permanent, permafrost isn’t permanent. The history of the planet is much warmer, hence all the vast resources of coal, oil and gas. The periods of cold on the planet that led to various ice ages were due to natural disasters, mainly the asteroid strikes and volcanic eruptions.
Don't forget cosmic clouds coming between the Sun and the Earth. Don't forget changes in Solar Activity
People are pretty good at schitting in their nest, and even poisoning their immediate environment. But as a whole, mankind is just a pimple on the Earth's butt. In a million years, whoever has become the dominant species on the planet will find no more sign that we were here than we find of Triceratops.
Electric buses have been around now a lot longer than 7 or 8 years.
In 1940 Seattle had electric buses running 15 routes, with 174 buses operating on 68 miles of two-way parallel overhead lines.
Their electric buses claimed fame for being able to pull the hills in Seattle better than the diesel buses they also used.
The electric bus system there has had its ups and downs..
Ridership reached an all-time high 130 million riders in 1944.
After the war, ridership on the trolleybus system declined as many American families began purchasing automobiles.
Some of the early buses there were converted to operate on both diesel and electric (early hybrid), then back to 100% electric through the fuel shortages of the 1970s.
They've added new electric buses over the years..
But they still run a lot of their older electric buses that have been maintained and rebuilt over the years.
This one was 50 years old when this image was taken.
The bus in the video below was 77 years old when the video was filmed.
So, longevity? It's already proven.
The big difference today is the introduction of onboard batteries in lieu of dependence of overhead power lines.
So all this resistance to the concept of these electric buses is actually resistance of batteries.
You guys are just afraid of batteries..
There's a huge difference between battery powered buses, and the buses shown in this post.
It's also kind of interesting that we have gone from sticking our tongue on a 9 volt battery to Tesla Ludicrous mode in less time than it took to go from a tiller to a steering wheel on automobiles.
Hold on to your britches for with the advent of and general introduction of AI in to mobile phones we are about to have some serious upgrades. I have been noting the rapid jumps being made in computing recently and it is nothing short of astounding in the scope and refinement of the genre.
EV's must sound like the movie from Jaws to you guys.
There coming!
Hahaha!
Jim, Do you use an EV to plow your fields, or to haul your stock to market? Why not?
Do you think you will be doing either within ten years?
I have no problem with those who want to drive an EV. I just do not want the money coming from my pocket to subsidize their choice.
And yes, any dollar collected by the Fed Gov, becomes property of the Fed, thusly property of you and me, despite that the Fed would have us all believe otherwise.
It's also kind of interesting that we have gone from sticking our tongue on a 9 volt battery to Tesla Ludicrous mode in less time than it took to go from a tiller to a steering wheel on automobiles.
Hold on to your britches for with the advent of and general introduction of AI in to mobile phones we are about to have some serious upgrades. I have been noting the rapid jumps being made in computing recently and it is nothing short of astounding in the scope and refinement of the genre.
It's also kind of interesting that we have gone from sticking our tongue on a 9 volt battery to Tesla Ludicrous mode in less time than it took to go from a tiller to a steering wheel on automobiles.
Hold on to your britches for with the advent of and general introduction of AI in to mobile phones we are about to have some serious upgrades. I have been noting the rapid jumps being made in computing recently and it is nothing short of astounding in the scope and refinement of the genre.
While there’s certainly room to question the longevity of current batteries, they’ve been using electric traction motors on trains for decades. If the batteries can hold up, the busses might run a lot longer than their hydro-carbon counterparts.
I’m not pro nor anti electric vehicles as choice. Can’t say I’m a big fan of any technology being foisted upon me from the Gov’t either direct mandate or through elimination of other options.
And those electric traction motors occasionally need replaced. At our factory, we had/still have two switch engines, with three traction motors between them, each powered by a 200 hp Cummins.
While I saw all three diesels replaced once in the forty years I worked there, about thirty years ago. We replaced an average of one traction motor per year. The traction motors were an in stock item in the storeroom at each factory. The diesels were not.
While there’s certainly room to question the longevity of current batteries, they’ve been using electric traction motors on trains for decades. If the batteries can hold up, the busses might run a lot longer than their hydro-carbon counterparts.
I’m not pro nor anti electric vehicles as choice. Can’t say I’m a big fan of any technology being foisted upon me from the Gov’t either direct mandate or through elimination of other options.
And those electric traction motors occasionally need replaced. At our factory, we had/still have two switch engines, with three traction motors between them, each powered by a 200 hp Cummins.
While I saw all three diesels replaced once in the forty years I worked there, about thirty years ago. We replaced an average of one traction motor per year. The traction motors were an in stock item in the storeroom at each factory. The diesels were not.
EV's must sound like the movie from Jaws to you guys.
There coming!
Hahaha!
Jim, Do you use an EV to plow your fields, or to haul your stock to market? Why not?
Do you think you will be doing either within ten years?
I have no problem with those who want to drive an EV. I just do not want the money coming from my pocket to subsidize their choice.
And yes, any dollar collected by the Fed Gov, becomes property of the Fed, thusly property of you and me, despite that the Fed would have us all believe otherwise.
Don't be silly.
Someone holds up a battery and you fall over and die because muh gasoline!
I smell more gas lighting by the Swamp / NWO... Within two days, I see three separate articles on electric school busses, MT, AK, and KY. The KY article (Wolfe County) indicated 150 mile range in warm weather. 100 mile in cold weather. At 30 cents per mile savings fuel savings, it would take +800,000 miles to break even on the $250K upcharge for an electric bus versus a diesel($400K vs $150K). And as far as "no tax dollars used..." BULL CHIT! If the government has the money, regardless of source, it is OUR MONEY ! The "extra" money being spent on electric busses, could be applied to other ongoing expenses... Or, gasp... to reduce tax burden on the average tax payer. Follow the money. Someone in the Swamp is invested in, or has a stake in, the electric bus companies. As always:
1) It is ALWAYS about the money. 2) Per George Carlin "It's a big club. And we ain't in it..."
I smell more gas lighting by the Swamp / NWO... Within two days, I see three separate articles on electric school busses, MT, AK, and KY.... 1) It is ALWAYS about the money. 2) Per George Carlin "It's a big club. And we ain't in it..."
I agree. Spent fair amount of time searching this morning, flood of articles, videos, all came out the same time. Seems to be an orchestrated effort. Who is behind this?
But, what I was looking for is who manufacturers these buses? Not a single article, not a single news video discloses who builds the buses. Seems odd, don't you think?
One article said the E-buses cost $400,000, twice what a diesel costs. 100 miles per battery charge. And seems nobody knows how long the battery will last.
Seems nobody in the industry knows, or will admit to, how long EV batteries will last. (radar on full blast here folks......)
Montana it showing "Great Success" in the role out of the mystery EV Buses Folks.....
I smell more gas lighting by the Swamp / NWO... Within two days, I see three separate articles on electric school busses, MT, AK, and KY. The KY article (Wolfe County) indicated 150 mile range in warm weather. 100 mile in cold weather. At 30 cents per mile savings fuel savings, it would take +800,000 miles to break even on the $250K upcharge for an electric bus versus a diesel($400K vs $150K). And as far as "no tax dollars used..." BULL CHIT! If the government has the money, regardless of source, it is OUR MONEY ! The "extra" money being spent on electric busses, could be applied to other ongoing expenses... Or, gasp... to reduce tax burden on the average tax payer. Follow the money. Someone in the Swamp is invested in, or has a stake in, the electric bus companies. As always:
1) It is ALWAYS about the money. 2) Per George Carlin "It's a big club. And we ain't in it..."
The government never had the Volkswagen money used by these schools to buy their awesome new buses.
The money went direct from Volkswagen to trust funds in each state and could only be withdrawn by citizens of the state that qualified for the purchase of zero emissions vehicles.
Don't wanna see anyone walking away from this thread that's still ignorant of the facts evolved.
I smell more gas lighting by the Swamp / NWO... Within two days, I see three separate articles on electric school busses, MT, AK, and KY. The KY article (Wolfe County) indicated 150 mile range in warm weather. 100 mile in cold weather. At 30 cents per mile savings fuel savings, it would take +800,000 miles to break even on the $250K upcharge for an electric bus versus a diesel($400K vs $150K). And as far as "no tax dollars used..." BULL CHIT! If the government has the money, regardless of source, it is OUR MONEY ! The "extra" money being spent on electric busses, could be applied to other ongoing expenses... Or, gasp... to reduce tax burden on the average tax payer. Follow the money. Someone in the Swamp is invested in, or has a stake in, the electric bus companies. As always:
1) It is ALWAYS about the money. 2) Per George Carlin "It's a big club. And we ain't in it..."
The government never had the Volkswagen money used by these schools to buy their awesome new buses.
The money went direct from Volkswagen to trust funds in each state and could only be withdrawn by citizens of the state that qualified for the purchase of zero emissions vehicles.
Don't wanna see anyone walking away from this thread that's still ignorant of the facts evolved.
JeffA...as I said on your bear thread ,... tongue in cheek....you have nerves of steel.....I have got $5 that says you cant get it done.... are you on?....bob
The money went direct from Volkswagen to trust funds in each state and could only be withdrawn by citizens of the state that qualified for the purchase of zero emissions vehicles.
Don't wanna see anyone walking away from this thread that's still ignorant of the facts evolved.
Just so we are not ignorant; Who qualifies(d)? And who makes that determination? And how much money is left? How was it spent? Is Havre considered a "ciitizen"?
EV's must sound like the movie from Jaws to you guys.
There coming!
Hahaha!
Jim, Do you use an EV to plow your fields, or to haul your stock to market? Why not?
Do you think you will be doing either within ten years?
I have no problem with those who want to drive an EV. I just do not want the money coming from my pocket to subsidize their choice.
And yes, any dollar collected by the Fed Gov, becomes property of the Fed, thusly property of you and me, despite that the Fed would have us all believe otherwise.
Don't be silly.
Someone holds up a battery and you fall over and die because muh gasoline!
Why not go back to carburetors?
No ....forget I asked.
So that is a no to my questions????
As I said earlier, I have no problem with anyone who wants to pay out of their own pocket to purchase an EV. I just do not like to subsidize their choice.
For my use? A few years ago I had to replace a transfer case on a Chevy Blazer because mud and sand had collected on the skid plate from my driveway. As the drive train moved under acceleration, the accumulated sand wore a hole completely through the bottom of the transfer case.
What would be the life expectancy of an EV under such conditions?
Sure I could use an EV to replace my Honda Accord, which gets taken out on clear, bright summer days. But I already have the accord. And I would have to pay for a charging station.
Go back to carbs. How obtuse! Our 3/4 ton and 1 ton farm pickups used to get 6 to 9 mpg at 150 hp with their carbs.
Now with direct injection and variable valve timing they get 20 mpg+, with 400 hp+, not even considering diesel performance. Technology is a wonderful thing. So long as I am not paying for someone else to buy it.
While there’s certainly room to question the longevity of current batteries, they’ve been using electric traction motors on trains for decades. If the batteries can hold up, the busses might run a lot longer than their hydro-carbon counterparts.
I’m not pro nor anti electric vehicles as choice. Can’t say I’m a big fan of any technology being foisted upon me from the Gov’t either direct mandate or through elimination of other options.
And those electric traction motors occasionally need replaced. At our factory, we had/still have two switch engines, with three traction motors between them, each powered by a 200 hp Cummins.
While I saw all three diesels replaced once in the forty years I worked there, about thirty years ago. We replaced an average of one traction motor per year. The traction motors were an in stock item in the storeroom at each factory. The diesels were not.
Honest question. Based on your statement, the average life of a traction motor on your engines in your yard was roughly 3yrs?
I don’t know diddly-squat about trains, longevity, maintenance, etc.
EV's must sound like the movie from Jaws to you guys.
There coming!
Hahaha!
Jim, Do you use an EV to plow your fields, or to haul your stock to market? Why not?
Do you think you will be doing either within ten years?
I have no problem with those who want to drive an EV. I just do not want the money coming from my pocket to subsidize their choice.
And yes, any dollar collected by the Fed Gov, becomes property of the Fed, thusly property of you and me, despite that the Fed would have us all believe otherwise.
Don't be silly.
Someone holds up a battery and you fall over and die because muh gasoline!
Why not go back to carburetors?
No ....forget I asked.
So that is a no to my questions????
As I said earlier, I have no problem with anyone who wants to pay out of their own pocket to purchase an EV. I just do not like to subsidize their choice.
For my use? A few years ago I had to replace a transfer case on a Chevy Blazer because mud and sand had collected on the skid plate from my driveway. As the drive train moved under acceleration, the accumulated sand wore a hole completely through the bottom of the transfer case.
What would be the life expectancy of an EV under such conditions?
Sure I could use an EV to replace my Honda Accord, which gets taken out on clear, bright summer days. But I already have the accord. And I would have to pay for a charging station.
Go back to carbs. How obtuse! Our 3/4 ton and 1 ton farm pickups used to get 6 to 9 mpg at 150 hp with their carbs.
Now with direct injection and variable valve timing they get 20 mpg+, with 400 hp+, not even considering diesel performance. Technology is a wonderful thing. So long as I am not paying for someone else to buy it.
Are you comparing diesel to gas powered farm trucks?
While there’s certainly room to question the longevity of current batteries, they’ve been using electric traction motors on trains for decades. If the batteries can hold up, the busses might run a lot longer than their hydro-carbon counterparts.
I’m not pro nor anti electric vehicles as choice. Can’t say I’m a big fan of any technology being foisted upon me from the Gov’t either direct mandate or through elimination of other options.
And those electric traction motors occasionally need replaced. At our factory, we had/still have two switch engines, with three traction motors between them, each powered by a 200 hp Cummins.
While I saw all three diesels replaced once in the forty years I worked there, about thirty years ago. We replaced an average of one traction motor per year. The traction motors were an in stock item in the storeroom at each factory. The diesels were not.
Honest question. Based on your statement, the average life of a traction motor on your engines in your yard was roughly 3yrs?
I don’t know diddly-squat about trains, longevity, maintenance, etc.
yes. They almost always failed due to water intrusion.
As I said earlier, I have no problem with anyone who wants to pay out of their own pocket to purchase an EV. I just do not like to subsidize their choice.
For my use? A few years ago I had to replace a transfer case on a Chevy Blazer because mud and sand had collected on the skid plate from my driveway. As the drive train moved under acceleration, the accumulated sand wore a hole completely through the bottom of the transfer case.
What would be the life expectancy of an EV under such conditions?
Sure I could use an EV to replace my Honda Accord, which gets taken out on clear, bright summer days. But I already have the accord. And I would have to pay for a charging station.
Go back to carbs. How obtuse! Our 3/4 ton and 1 ton farm pickups used to get 6 to 9 mpg at 150 hp with their carbs.
Now with direct injection and variable valve timing they get 20 mpg+, with 400 hp+, not even considering diesel performance. Technology is a wonderful thing. So long as I am not paying for someone else to buy it.
Are you comparing diesel to gas powered farm trucks?
I specifically excluded diesels in this comparison.
For example the 6.2 liter Chevy produces 420 hp and gets 20 mpg and has since 2018. My 75 Dodge w/ 440 got 6 mpg day in, day out, loaded, or empty.
Of course that 20 mpg is hiway. It will not do that crawling through the mud hauling hay bales through the pastures or pushing a snow plow.
I smell more gas lighting by the Swamp / NWO... Within two days, I see three separate articles on electric school busses, MT, AK, and KY. The KY article (Wolfe County) indicated 150 mile range in warm weather. 100 mile in cold weather. At 30 cents per mile savings fuel savings, it would take +800,000 miles to break even on the $250K upcharge for an electric bus versus a diesel($400K vs $150K). And as far as "no tax dollars used..." BULL CHIT! If the government has the money, regardless of source, it is OUR MONEY ! The "extra" money being spent on electric busses, could be applied to other ongoing expenses... Or, gasp... to reduce tax burden on the average tax payer. Follow the money. Someone in the Swamp is invested in, or has a stake in, the electric bus companies. As always:
1) It is ALWAYS about the money. 2) Per George Carlin "It's a big club. And we ain't in it..."
EV's must sound like the movie from Jaws to you guys.
There coming!
Hahaha!
Jim, Do you use an EV to plow your fields, or to haul your stock to market? Why not?
Do you think you will be doing either within ten years?
I have no problem with those who want to drive an EV. I just do not want the money coming from my pocket to subsidize their choice.
And yes, any dollar collected by the Fed Gov, becomes property of the Fed, thusly property of you and me, despite that the Fed would have us all believe otherwise.
Don't be silly.
Someone holds up a battery and you fall over and die because muh gasoline!
Why not go back to carburetors?
No ....forget I asked.
So that is a no to my questions????
As I said earlier, I have no problem with anyone who wants to pay out of their own pocket to purchase an EV. I just do not like to subsidize their choice.
For my use? A few years ago I had to replace a transfer case on a Chevy Blazer because mud and sand had collected on the skid plate from my driveway. As the drive train moved under acceleration, the accumulated sand wore a hole completely through the bottom of the transfer case.
What would be the life expectancy of an EV under such conditions?
Sure I could use an EV to replace my Honda Accord, which gets taken out on clear, bright summer days. But I already have the accord. And I would have to pay for a charging station.
Go back to carbs. How obtuse! Our 3/4 ton and 1 ton farm pickups used to get 6 to 9 mpg at 150 hp with their carbs.
Now with direct injection and variable valve timing they get 20 mpg+, with 400 hp+, not even considering diesel performance. Technology is a wonderful thing. So long as I am not paying for someone else to buy it.
Talk about obtuse!
You never have stopped paying for someone else to buy anything.
By all means...continue your free fall to obsolescence.
As I said earlier, I have no problem with anyone who wants to pay out of their own pocket to purchase an EV. I just do not like to subsidize their choice.
For my use? A few years ago I had to replace a transfer case on a Chevy Blazer because mud and sand had collected on the skid plate from my driveway. As the drive train moved under acceleration, the accumulated sand wore a hole completely through the bottom of the transfer case.
What would be the life expectancy of an EV under such conditions?
Sure I could use an EV to replace my Honda Accord, which gets taken out on clear, bright summer days. But I already have the accord. And I would have to pay for a charging station.
Go back to carbs. How obtuse! Our 3/4 ton and 1 ton farm pickups used to get 6 to 9 mpg at 150 hp with their carbs.
Now with direct injection and variable valve timing they get 20 mpg+, with 400 hp+, not even considering diesel performance. Technology is a wonderful thing. So long as I am not paying for someone else to buy it.
Are you comparing diesel to gas powered farm trucks?
I specifically excluded diesels in this comparison.
For example the 6.2 liter Chevy produces 420 hp and gets 20 mpg and has since 2018. My 75 Dodge w/ 440 got 6 mpg day in, day out, loaded, or empty.
Of course that 20 mpg is hiway. It will not do that crawling through the mud hauling hay bales through the pastures or pushing a snow plow.
EV's must sound like the movie from Jaws to you guys.
There coming!
Hahaha!
Jim, Do you use an EV to plow your fields, or to haul your stock to market? Why not?
Do you think you will be doing either within ten years?
I have no problem with those who want to drive an EV. I just do not want the money coming from my pocket to subsidize their choice.
And yes, any dollar collected by the Fed Gov, becomes property of the Fed, thusly property of you and me, despite that the Fed would have us all believe otherwise.
Don't be silly.
Someone holds up a battery and you fall over and die because muh gasoline!
Why not go back to carburetors?
No ....forget I asked.
So that is a no to my questions????
As I said earlier, I have no problem with anyone who wants to pay out of their own pocket to purchase an EV. I just do not like to subsidize their choice.
For my use? A few years ago I had to replace a transfer case on a Chevy Blazer because mud and sand had collected on the skid plate from my driveway. As the drive train moved under acceleration, the accumulated sand wore a hole completely through the bottom of the transfer case.
What would be the life expectancy of an EV under such conditions?
Sure I could use an EV to replace my Honda Accord, which gets taken out on clear, bright summer days. But I already have the accord. And I would have to pay for a charging station.
Go back to carbs. How obtuse! Our 3/4 ton and 1 ton farm pickups used to get 6 to 9 mpg at 150 hp with their carbs.
Now with direct injection and variable valve timing they get 20 mpg+, with 400 hp+, not even considering diesel performance. Technology is a wonderful thing. So long as I am not paying for someone else to buy it.
Talk about obtuse!
You never have stopped paying for someone else to buy anything.
By all means...continue your free fall to obsolescence.
You be sure to let us know when you give up your obsolete tractors and pickup trucks.
As I said earlier, I have no problem with anyone who wants to pay out of their own pocket to purchase an EV. I just do not like to subsidize their choice.
For my use? A few years ago I had to replace a transfer case on a Chevy Blazer because mud and sand had collected on the skid plate from my driveway. As the drive train moved under acceleration, the accumulated sand wore a hole completely through the bottom of the transfer case.
What would be the life expectancy of an EV under such conditions?
Sure I could use an EV to replace my Honda Accord, which gets taken out on clear, bright summer days. But I already have the accord. And I would have to pay for a charging station.
Go back to carbs. How obtuse! Our 3/4 ton and 1 ton farm pickups used to get 6 to 9 mpg at 150 hp with their carbs.
Now with direct injection and variable valve timing they get 20 mpg+, with 400 hp+, not even considering diesel performance. Technology is a wonderful thing. So long as I am not paying for someone else to buy it.
Are you comparing diesel to gas powered farm trucks?
I specifically excluded diesels in this comparison.
For example the 6.2 liter Chevy produces 420 hp and gets 20 mpg and has since 2018. My 75 Dodge w/ 440 got 6 mpg day in, day out, loaded, or empty.
Of course that 20 mpg is hiway. It will not do that crawling through the mud hauling hay bales through the pastures or pushing a snow plow.
What does excluding diesels prove?
Does not prove anything. Was not pertinent to the conversation of carburetors.
I smell more gas lighting by the Swamp / NWO... Within two days, I see three separate articles on electric school busses, MT, AK, and KY. The KY article (Wolfe County) indicated 150 mile range in warm weather. 100 mile in cold weather. At 30 cents per mile savings fuel savings, it would take +800,000 miles to break even on the $250K upcharge for an electric bus versus a diesel($400K vs $150K). And as far as "no tax dollars used..." BULL CHIT! If the government has the money, regardless of source, it is OUR MONEY ! The "extra" money being spent on electric busses, could be applied to other ongoing expenses... Or, gasp... to reduce tax burden on the average tax payer. Follow the money. Someone in the Swamp is invested in, or has a stake in, the electric bus companies. As always:
1) It is ALWAYS about the money. 2) Per George Carlin "It's a big club. And we ain't in it..."
The government never had the Volkswagen money used by these schools to buy their awesome new buses.
The money went direct from Volkswagen to trust funds in each state and could only be withdrawn by citizens of the state that qualified for the purchase of zero emissions vehicles.
Don't wanna see anyone walking away from this thread that's still ignorant of the facts evolved.
You are either disingenuous or choice-fully ignorant... Break this into two pieces:
First, Who controls the money? From your post "to trust funds in each state".. So State government is controlling disbursement. Reminds me of the Tobacco Buy Out that was signed into law in 1998... 25 years later the USDA and state Ag Departments are STILL doling out dribbles and drabs to the former tobacco producers they are supposed to be helping. Who is controlling / benefiting from all of the VW money sitting in escrow? Definitely not the citizens.
Second, Who structured the Volkswagen CAA violation settlement with VW? One of the "swampy-est" organizations in D.C. ... The EPA. Per the EPA-brokered settlement, funds have to be spent on DERA compliant projects and vehicles. The money could have been allocated to fund any number of existing programs or projects, federal or state thereby reducing tax payer burden. But NO, the EPA had to slot the money to be spent on PURCHASING the newest Swamp money scam/diversion... Electric Vehicles... Citizens did NOT get a say in where the money was slotted. The Swamp directed the money to a very narrow group of projects controlled by other like minded government agencies.
So, why now the big push to spend VW fines on Electric Powered Buses? Gasoline powered buses are DERA compliant. Propane powered buses are DERA compliant. Newer low particulate diesel power trains are DERA compliant. So why all of the gas lighting toward Electric Buses?
Well... Maybe because 39 of the 50 states are not taking the EPA (Swamp) bait to purchase electric buses. Per the article below, and others like it, the majority of states are using the VW money to purchase other-than-electric buses... And the Swamp is missing out on an opportunity to profit from a self induced push for electric buses. Time to turn up the propaganda to make E Buses look like a good idea.
As I said above: "It is ALWAYS about the money." Someone in the swamp is pizzed that their electric bus investment is not making as much money as originally anticipated by slotting the VW fines...
Notice they said they dont see an entire fleet of electric buses. That is for many reasons. Likely cant make the longer routes without more charging infrastructure and delays to charge. Also, they need more chargers and space for charging and beefing up the electricity supply to the site to get enough power for charging. They dont mention a complete change in tech for the mechanics, who need retrained to repair electric vehicles. They also would not be good for long athletic trips without statewide charging.
Electric is great when it makes sense, glad they are finding a way to use some. There are areas where it just doesnt make sense, and that is why it cannot just be a hard switch over.... the tech isnt ready.
Saw some posts on batterlife etc. I am a Civil Engineer and my teams are helping states roll out the federal governments plans for chargers along the interstates. My team is working on 3 states around me. We have also helped prepare studies on the feasibility of transit agencies converting to electric. There is a lot of very interesting information. For example, there is not a really good cut away bus ( the small town transit buses that carry about 25 people0. They seem to have a route capability of 80-100 miles, but you dont want to charge them to 100% and you dont want to run them below 20% or so. Additionally, the batteries fade over time, likely in 3-5 years the battery capacity may only be 70% of what it was initially, which really reduces the route distance. For transit, ou can put chargers in the pavement at bust stops, and that can buy you some extra distance. Sitting 10 minutes at each stop to gain a little charge. The problem is the cost of providing and maintaining all of these chargers along the routes. None of this considers the obvious change in technology as it improves and everything will have to be torn out and replaces to upgrade. Not much different than computers 30 years ago, or phones 15 years ago. Tech improves so fast and all the existint stuff doesnt work anymore. Most of our studies have shown our local transit agencies to consider adding electric as tech improves, and slowly add to the shorter routes, if that is a plan they like. May be 10 years before things reach feasibility, and that is for programmed and easily planned transit stuff.
Have any of you seen the hard forced switchover yet?
Aside from the innanet?
How much more of a forced transition do you need than inflated gas prices, billions of dollars of our tax dollars to force the installation of unprofitable charging stations across the country, starting along the interstate. Even when proven to not be feasible, the federal plan forces the installation of a charging station every 50 miles along all interstates and then to secondary highways etc. Once they get the system half way converted, prices for both will be high because of a severe loss of customers for fossil fuels and not enough customers for electric. Will still have to deal with the rolling power outages if there is an increase in charging. Does somebody actually have to knock on your door with a gun for it to be considered a forceful switch?
JeffA...as I said on your bear thread ,... tongue in cheek....you have nerves of steel.....I have got $5 that says you cant get it done.... are you on?....bob
That'd be a loosing proposition.
I think the most most of them, deep down in their dark oil stained hearts know the facts but just enjoy being part of the opposition due to some warped ideology they struggle to cling to.
Have any of you seen the hard forced switchover yet?
Aside from the innanet?
How much more of a forced transition do you need than inflated gas prices, billions of dollars of our tax dollars to force the installation of unprofitable charging stations across the country, starting along the interstate. Even when proven to not be feasible, the federal plan forces the installation of a charging station every 50 miles along all interstates and then to secondary highways etc. Once they get the system half way converted, prices for both will be high because of a severe loss of customers for fossil fuels and not enough customers for electric. Will still have to deal with the rolling power outages if there is an increase in charging. Does somebody actually have to knock on your door with a gun for it to be considered a forceful switch?
We spent over a trillion the last time we went to Iraq.
While there’s certainly room to question the longevity of current batteries, they’ve been using electric traction motors on trains for decades. If the batteries can hold up, the busses might run a lot longer than their hydro-carbon counterparts.
I’m not pro nor anti electric vehicles as choice. Can’t say I’m a big fan of any technology being foisted upon me from the Gov’t either direct mandate or through elimination of other options.
And those electric traction motors occasionally need replaced. At our factory, we had/still have two switch engines, with three traction motors between them, each powered by a 200 hp Cummins.
While I saw all three diesels replaced once in the forty years I worked there, about thirty years ago. We replaced an average of one traction motor per year. The traction motors were an in stock item in the storeroom at each factory. The diesels were not.
Honest question. Based on your statement, the average life of a traction motor on your engines in your yard was roughly 3yrs?
I don’t know diddly-squat about trains, longevity, maintenance, etc.
yes. They almost always failed due to water intrusion.
ID Shooter, I'm not discounting your experience at all here. It's Interesting that electric trolling motors go decades completely submerged and stored/stowed out in the sun for their entire working life and the rail industry hasn't demanded better service of their traction motors. Maybe with the dust, grit, pebbles, rocks, etc. that get kicked up as the trains travel, stuff is just going to get chipped/cracked and the water gets in.
Have any of you seen the hard forced switchover yet?
Aside from the innanet?
57 3/4tn-1tn new pickups on the various big 3 (4 w/GMC) lots in Fargo ND. 37 Ram, 5 Chevy, 7 GMC, 2 Fords. Pre-2020 there were 30-50+ of each brand in each size (3/4tn and 1tn).
I know they claim microchip shortage. I suspect there's a significant cutback in production to keep their "Fleets" in compliance w/CAFE standards.
While there’s certainly room to question the longevity of current batteries, they’ve been using electric traction motors on trains for decades. If the batteries can hold up, the busses might run a lot longer than their hydro-carbon counterparts.
I’m not pro nor anti electric vehicles as choice. Can’t say I’m a big fan of any technology being foisted upon me from the Gov’t either direct mandate or through elimination of other options.
And those electric traction motors occasionally need replaced. At our factory, we had/still have two switch engines, with three traction motors between them, each powered by a 200 hp Cummins.
While I saw all three diesels replaced once in the forty years I worked there, about thirty years ago. We replaced an average of one traction motor per year. The traction motors were an in stock item in the storeroom at each factory. The diesels were not.
Honest question. Based on your statement, the average life of a traction motor on your engines in your yard was roughly 3yrs?
I don’t know diddly-squat about trains, longevity, maintenance, etc.
yes. They almost always failed due to water intrusion.
ID Shooter, I'm not discounting your experience at all here. It's Interesting that electric trolling motors go decades completely submerged and stored/stowed out in the sun for their entire working life and the rail industry hasn't demanded better service of their traction motors. Maybe with the dust, grit, pebbles, rocks, etc. that get kicked up as the trains travel, stuff is just going to get chipped/cracked and the water gets in.
More lengthy description. Two locos, one 25 ton w/one power unit, one 45 ton w/ two power units. Both low speed.....15 mph tops. And ran solely within our property boundaries. Both run 24/7 for 120 days during processing season each year, and possibly an average of 10 hrs/week the rest of the year. Both machines are 75 plus years old.
Motor failure almost always occurs as snow gets pushed up under the locomotive and into the motor.
Point being: electric motors do fail, even without water intrusion. Bearings wear out, winding short out, armatures fail.
Though I fail to remember the replacement of a fork truck motor. Yes, many a battery. Lead acid batteries lasted three to four years. We kept a fleet of six electric lift trucks. These lift trucks were rated for explosive environments, so the motors were sealed exceptionally well.
As far as I remember, the motors were good for the life of the truck. In our environment that life was fifteen to twenty years, then we scrapped them.
We know it isn't feasible, they know we know and they will still insist on selling the whole bill of goods to us.
Most of us don't want a bar of it and they still don't care...what more can we say?
Gawd...that's the scary thing though.
It might just be feasible.
We just don't want to have to publicly eat all that crow...
Some of these old fuggers hope they die before the electric take over happens.
Just so they don't have to admit they were wrong.
How in hell's half acre did I miss this thread for a couple of days? Oh, yeah. I don't think I logged on from Fri night until yesterday evening and then I didn't stay long.
Anywhoooo..................
Jim, I'm with you. Some of these old fuggers still haven't figured out that it would be OK for them to go out and buy a 6.5 Creedlemore if they chose to do it just for the heck of it........
kamo_gari's video from TX was right..........this place is just hilarious some days.
how long do schools keep a diesel bus in service? Over 200K miles?
You really need to look at life-cycle costs.
A grant (i.e. other taxpayers) payed 85% of the initial capital cost. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.
The #'s they report are far from factual, as a matter of fact they are outright lies. but then again they lie to push their agenda on everything they do.
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How obtuse!
Hahaha!
What, you still have an old crank handle starter vehicle around the place???
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How obtuse!
Hahaha!
What, you still have an old crank handle starter vehicle around the place???
Nope.
I am terrified of everything so I just use horses now for everything.
Actually...the way I figure...I have been totally wrong about 3 specific technology advancements in the past.
Power steering on 4 wheelers, net wrap on round baler, and batt op power tools.
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How obtuse!
Hahaha!
What, you still have an old crank handle starter vehicle around the place???
Nope.
I am terrified of everything so I just use horses now for everything.
Actually...the way I figure...I have been totally wrong about 3 specific technology advancements in the past.
Power steering on 4 wheelers, net wrap on round baler, and batt op power tools.
Not going to make the same mistake again.
Two of the three I can go with.
When they make edible net wrap for the round bails, just drop them in the field, I'll be happy but I am not a fan of plastic for all things modern.
And yeah, I really like the modern battery tools. That first 9v Craftsman power drill/driver was mostly useless. I could get more done with a brace and bit than that thing.
Electric vehicles, wind power and solar power are all works in progress. Nothing wrong with that. My issue is the federal government subsidizing these industries by providing tax breaks, grants and other benefits at taxpayer expense. Totally unconstitutional. Let them succeed or fail on their own.
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How obtuse!
Hahaha!
What, you still have an old crank handle starter vehicle around the place???
Nope.
I am terrified of everything so I just use horses now for everything.
Actually...the way I figure...I have been totally wrong about 3 specific technology advancements in the past.
Power steering on 4 wheelers, net wrap on round baler, and batt op power tools.
Not going to make the same mistake again.
Two of the three I can go with.
When they make edible net wrap for the round bails, just drop them in the field, I'll be happy but I am not a fan of plastic for all things modern.
And yeah, I really like the modern battery tools. That first 9v Craftsman power drill/driver was mostly useless. I could get more done with a brace and bit than that thing.
Actually Jim the trillions spent on oil companies, farm subsidies and all the other unconstitutional crap is not okay. Likewise the money spent on foreign aid and NGOs bringing in illegals is not okay either. Probably 95% of the federal government is not constitutional. But we weren’t talking about all that, we were talking about electric school buses.
How many here are still running their horseless carriages? Or their ones with horses? Model T's?
We no longer have to go around front and crank the handle to get the car started.
Someone mentioned the carb v injection issue
And yet we have some here who seem to be against using EV's that will further the progress made in technology of...........................EV's.
OK, let's complain about the "subsidies"....................which exist everywhere for just about every goldarn thing. Do we get a line item veto on our taxes for stuff we don't think we should have to pay for? Now, THAT would be cool. I can see some real use in that.
I don't like ethanol in my gasoline...............no corn subsidies.
I don't have kids..............don't put ANY of my tax contributions in the Dept of Education account.
Don't like war........................no tax breaks for McDonnell Douglas and others.
I do like hunting and fishing on public ground, so put a good chunk of my taxes into some fund to buy up ranches in TX so I can go visit friends and hunt for free.
The technology available for use by humans has changed substantially over the years. It's continuing to do so and is going to do so again........assuming human life continues in the distant future.
How obtuse!
Hahaha!
I can't believe Geno used foul language and said "goldarn." What's the world coming to?
Actually Jim the trillions spent on oil companies, farm subsidies and all the other unconstitutional crap is not okay. Likewise the money spent on foreign aid and NGOs bringing in illegals is not okay either. Probably 95% of the federal government is not constitutional. But we weren’t talking about all that, we were talking about electric school buses.
You can't pick and choose.
Should we be looking at electric school buses? Yes.
During the early days of our Republic, New York state saw that the existing ways of moving goods from the Great Lakes to lower New York state was outdated and inefficient. The State financed the building of the Erie Canal. This opened up more efficient trade with the Great Lakes region to New York, turning New York into and economic giant.
During the last half of the 19th century the Federal Government saw that carting goods around the western half of the United States with oxen or horses was not going to cut it in the future. They offered land grants and other incentives to individuals and corporations to use as collateral to sell bonds and finance the railroads that were to serve the west. The development of the west would have been much slower without the Federal Government directing the build-out of this transportation infrastructure.
There used to be two ways to get shipped from anyplace on the Atlantic Ocean to anyplace on the Pacific Ocean. One was to sail all the way around the tip of South America. The other was to ship goods to Central America unload the goods, move them across the isthmus over land, reload on another boat to continue the journey. Teddy Roosevelt saw this as a loser way do move goods and picked a winning way to do it by building the Panama Canal.
In the early 1900's the internal combustion engine was becoming a mature technology and started to out compete horses and steam power for many things including personal transportation and light freight. Unfortunately most of the road system in the United States were dirt roads filled with potholes, nasty ruts and such. Fine for slow horses and horse carts, but it didn't take advantage of the automobile's increased speed potential. The roads were simply designed to poorly for the new internal combustion engine way of transport. The Government decided that horses where to be the losers and redesigned our road system, paving and making other improvements, solely for the advantage of cars and trucks.
While we are on the subject of internal combustion engines. Powered flight was not possible until they were developed. The the Wright Brothers put one of these new engines on a couple of wings and boom, another mode of transportation came into being. Governments around the United States started building airports for this new means of getting around. Air travel would eventually take over much of long range transportation that is time sensitive as a result. Government subsidized air transport with airports or it would have lagged way behind in its development.
To say Government has no place in directing the direction of our transportation infrastructure, and therefore choose between who wins and who loses, is to deny basically a couple hundred year of U.S. history. It also does not understand the way this country was build and became such an economic power. There is nothing in Constitution that forbids it. In fact, enabling the Federal Government more power, power that would enable it to take on the requirements of building a nation, was one of the main reasons the old Articles of Confederation were discarded and a new Constitution was written giving the Federal Government more power than the Continental Congress had. (Hamilton won, Jefferson lost, we live in Hamilton's America now.)
The move to electrify our transportation by the Federal Government is just the latest in a long line of upgrades to our transportation system the Federal, local and regional governments have been doing since this country was founded. It may be a wise move or an unwise move, but it does fit within the traditional and constitutional role of American government.
I am terrified of everything so I just use horses now for everything.
Actually...the way I figure...I have been totally wrong about 3 specific technology advancements in the past.
Power steering on 4 wheelers, net wrap on round baler, and batt op power tools.
Not going to make the same mistake again.
Two of the three I can go with.
When they make edible net wrap for the round bails, just drop them in the field, I'll be happy but I am not a fan of plastic for all things modern.
And yeah, I really like the modern battery tools. That first 9v Craftsman power drill/driver was mostly useless. I could get more done with a brace and bit than that thing.
Oh I do like fuel injection over carbs too.
I miss 'points'.......
I bet, Bias ply tires, vacuum wipers and such too I bet.
Hell, I still have a timing light..............and no use for it..................but I got one!
Other than the Bill of Rights, the Constitution places very few limitations on state governments. The individual states are pretty much free to do as they please as long as the voters are in agreement. This would include building dams and canals, subsidizing businesses and sporting events, and even outlawing gasoline engines.
That same Constitution places limitation on the federal government. Since its exception, the federal government has grown larger and more intrusive. It uses taxation and tax revenue to influence people’s behavior. It uses tax revenue to influence state laws. We have reached the point the federal government doesn’t even use tax money any more, they just print money.
My point is electric technology is advancing and we are making improvements but some things are not ready for prime time. Look at the advancements in battery powered tools. Battery powered automobiles are entirely serviceable for some applications but they are not acceptable for everyone. Capitalism will solve these problems without government interference. Everything in government is agenda driven. When homeless people decide they need a home they will get one.
![[Linked Image from ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com]](https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/22b98dc/2147483647/strip/true/crop/994x768+0+0/resize/1988x1536!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fewscripps-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F37%2Ff8%2F8e6fa49845fcbcb3c3adbf7c552f%2Flectricbus.jpg)
![[Linked Image from ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com]](https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/1fd0743/2147483647/strip/true/crop/1278x719+1+0/resize/1280x720!/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fewscripps-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F3c%2Fcb%2Fee9a75514a73bb53dec91a6748c3%2Fhavre-bus.jpg)
![[Linked Image from hips.hearstapps.com]](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/e-transit-school-bus-ntea-1-1-64554c12b3776.jpg)
![[Linked Image from pristinefarmexperience.files.wordpress.com]](https://pristinefarmexperience.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/img_0148.jpg)
![[Linked Image from media.alaskapublic.org]](https://media.alaskapublic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/TokSchoolBus2-600x450.jpg)
![[Linked Image from media.alaskapublic.org]](https://media.alaskapublic.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/SchoolBus.png)
![[Linked Image from s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com]](https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/assets.kerlinbus.com/uploads/_960x720_crop_center-center_none/electric-school-bus-side.jpg)
![[Linked Image from media1.tenor.com]](https://media1.tenor.com/m/noChaWTJ9SgAAAAC/crickets-chirp-chirp.gif)
![[Linked Image from c.tenor.com]](https://c.tenor.com/9x7sGKcXKBAAAAAC/tenor.gif)
![[Linked Image from glaciermt.com]](https://glaciermt.com/assets/img/communities/bigfork.jpg)
![[Linked Image from erepublic.brightspotcdn.com]](https://erepublic.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/7c6b7e1/2147483647/strip/true/crop/1773x924+0+129/resize/1680x876!/format/webp/quality/90/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ferepublic-brightspot.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com%2F8a%2F08%2F3d1ba04a472a9431291d0c580602%2Fschoolbus.lionelectric.PNG)
![[Linked Image from electrek.co]](https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2021/02/LionC-Electric-Bus.jpg)
![[Linked Image from eesi.org]](https://www.eesi.org/images/content/la_plata_bus.PNG)
![[Linked Image from historylink.org]](https://www.historylink.org/Content/Media/Photos/Small/city-bus-seattle-december-15-1940.jpg)
![[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/MAN_Articulated_Trolley_Bus.jpg)
![[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Seattle_1940_Twin_Coach_trolleybus_643_in_1990.jpg)
This one was 50 years old when this image was taken.
![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/yxXxt175/baghdad-blitzer.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/gallery/80/full/246074.jpg)
