Via, http//:www.rfth.org

SEP
30
2008
But What About Victims of Rape and Incest?
"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13

Even some dedicated pro-lifers discuss exceptions to their stand against abortion. For instance, what about an unwed teenager who is raped? Or a victim of incest? Surely abortion needs to be considered then, doesn't it? While we certainly need to show great compassion and caring for anyone in that difficult dilemma, we also must recognize that we can never remedy one sin by committing another sin. Two wrongs never make a right.

For one thing, abortion is just not a solution to the problem; it only compounds the horror. Even if the child is aborted, the horrible psychological consequences remain. As Christians, we must go beyond stopping the abortion, we must also focus on the victims' other needs. Adoption is certainly important, but so is providing the mother with financial assistance, child-care options, health care, job training, and most of all - ongoing Christian counseling to help her deal with this horrible sin.

Even these services will not completely remove the devastation caused by rape. But abortion solves nothing; in fact it only adds to the victim's inner turmoil. No matter how horrific is an evil against man, God can always bring good out of that life situation when we seek to do things His way. Christianity is for life and victory over death.

Those who would expect/force the victim of a viscious crime to endure full term pregnancy (pregnancy is a potentially life threatening condition) and give birth, are, indeed, the devil's partners.

Thank "God," Mary of Nazareth didn't have a "choice."

Dan

Your statement shows that you have completely failed to understand the moral issues at question. But why should today be any different?

No, it is you who doesn't understand: You do not understand the plight of the victim! ..... Or, the plight of all the unwanted children born of such circumstances.

Your badmouthing me....and your further punishing of rape victims does not make you right. You are wrong!

I'd bet you are a proponent of capital punishment...right?

GPA,
You are obviously a very dull tool that has not found his place in the shed. Want to see a "devil's partner" look no further than your own mirror.
My opinion is that if the baby is aborted then there are two victims of the rape. IMHO let the baby live and stretch the neck of the rapist.
I would also like to see some factual, TRUTHFUL, numbers on the number of pregnancies from a "true" rape; not some juggled numbers by pro-abortion camps.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

For my part, I am "not" a proponent of capital punishment any longer. Not since the advent of DNA testing and the discovery that a significan number of people currently serving on death row - and certainly a significant number of already executed prisoners - are most assuredly innocent victims themselves.

As a man, technically I have no voice in the matter, unless the embryo bears my genes. Unfortunately, even that has no bearing under the law, as the father has no voice either, if the woman chooses to kill her baby!

Make no mistake, calling it a fetus, or an embryo may make you feel better, but the emotional scarring the victim of the rape or incest may feel, will only be compounded by the guilt they experience later in life, every time they see a precious child and wonder what might have been.

You are an unimaginative man. Such is the pity. The law was conceived (pardon the pun) by unimaginative people.

Dan

I"ve always wondered, in a perfect world each sexual encounter should lead to full term pregnancy.... yet it doesnt'. Body aborts its own... and then in a rape you involve the medical field and its wrong.... I dunno sometimes...

The usual problem with abortion 'discussions' is that neither side is willing to give an inch.
Killing babies is wrong. However, thare are circumstances where a reasonable person would give the ok for an abortion.
Sadly, one side says NEVER, and the other side says ANYTIME.

Lack of compromise will keept this issue going forever.

As a pro-lifer, I'll give an inch. I'll give you abortions for every case of rape, incest and threat of harm to the mother. You give me the other 99.9999% of abortions. Deal?



Does civilized society punish children for the sins of their fathers???? Would you kill the child making it also a victim of the rape??

And, it's a prime example as to why religion and politics should never mix.

but they always do..........always.

And they always will. An individual's personal beliefs always carry over to the political arena as they tend to group with those of similar beliefs. Human nature.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

So the pro-lifers on this list could - say, support the "morning-after pill - yet continue to work to outlawing the "normal" type abortions?

That would at least be a step in the right direction.

The pro-choicers could push for manditory counciling sessions where women learn about the state od development of their fetus, and learn about the non-abortion options they have.

That would be a step in the right direction for them too.

EVERYONE, on both sides of the arguement wants to minimize abortions - that's a given.

One of the things that has stuck in my memory after my just-served Kairos weekend is an inmate, in one-on-one spiritual counseling with a clergy person, sobbing and screaming with the pain of having had an abortion at 17. She wanted to know if her baby is in Heaven, and was literally on her knees, wracked with sobs, unable to afford herself any kind of forgiveness for taking that child's life.

Choosing abortion is simply trading one unbearable pain for another... and killing a child as well.

Penny

Well said Penny.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

Baloney. Once you have become pregnant and borne a child, tell me then about the "life-threatening condition" and how horrible it is. Having children is one of the things that women were made for. It is the most natural thing in the world, and in the vast, vast majority of cases, safe.

Penny

Brian... For the second time in less than a week I find myself in complete agreement with you on an issue...

Is there some strange alignment of the planets, or what?

God knows the number of hairs on our head. He knew us before were were conceived in our mother's womb. God allows a child to be conceived.

Were I to become pregnant as a victim of rape, would I think that my plan was better than God's? That I was a better judge of whether or not that child should be born? What arrogance!

Things (both good and bad) happen for a purpose. God brings us through pain and suffering and brings something good and positive out of the situation. It warmed my heart to see the inmates last weekend realize this, and embrace it.

In my opinion, God decides when we are born, and when we die; He also decides who is born. It is not for us to mess with that, even though most of the time we do think (unfortunately) that we know better than God.

Penny

Leave your desk and go count to 10,Bob!!

I know a guy that is the product of rape. He is currently in Medical School. Just sayin'

Oops! Hopefully I didn't make you angry.

It's okay for you to disagree with me, Bob. Honest it is. I'll still respect you in the morning.

Penny

Angry at you...No Way...

I"ll play the other side, God brought the medical folks into this world, allowed them to be educated, and taught them what they know..... is that an extension of God? Kinda like the sermon joke, but I sent a sheriff, a boat and a helicopter during the flood.....

Its hard for me... I see both sides clearly. I also happen to know of more than a few miserable adopted children... and some that should have-- imho-- been aborted and we'd have been better off. Tis not my call, but a lot of it is not clear black and white....a lot of gray area or lack thereof the gray matter at times.

Is blocking contraception even a thought...I mean thats avoiding what should happen naturally and altering things....

So, it's okay to legislate it for all people of all religions because your belief in God tells you that it's wrong? And your religious beliefs tell you that you MUST remove free will from all people in regard to this?

Heck, my belief in God tells me it's wrong to worship false gods. So, by that token we must outlaw silly things like Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Hindu's, Muslims.. Can't allow free will to lead folks astray now. And Sunday worship will be mandatory, or we'll sic the religious police on them.

Personally, I'll go with advocating my beliefs in church and in person and go for keeping the government out of our lives as much as possible.

The counter argument to that would be say, human sacrifice. Just because your religion calls for human sacrifice doesn�t mean it should be allowed by law. That is why the �when life begins� thing is crucial to the debate on abortion.

If you can define any abortion as murder then you can advocate looking your daughter in the eye and telling her she has to carry her rapist�s baby to term.

+1

Question: Does God decide who gets raped? What possible rationale could she use?

Would you as a mere mortal grant parental status...with all rights and privileges to the rapist? After all....he IS the father.

Back to God: Does she plan the many spontaneous abortions that occur? Again, what's the rationale? Why are some chosen to suffer? Why are some chosen to die?

Back to you: Why would you FORCE someone to suffer?...To be a victim, twice over?

We are sickened by the practices of some of these polygamy cults that force children to have children, and yet we say children of rape are OK. Go figure!

May God bless you in a way that you never encounter rape and/or have to deal with it.

Your stupidity has no boundaries.

Keep striving for the bottom, marblehead!!

I would like to ask a serious question.

Why do Christians oppose abortion so much?

There is no prohibition against it in the Bible.

Leaving abortion as an option,in these situations, has always been part of the prolife stance. For most of us, me esspecially the abortion on demand menatlity is the crime, not the abortion itself. The abortion itself should be an option, not a solution, in any case of pregnacy resulting from rape or insect, just like in cases of a full term prgnacy being potentially a death sentace for the mother, or possibly if a know potential of a birth defect in the child. That is more a quality of life issue. The objection is to the women who use abortion as just retroactive birth control. If carried to the extent of the original poster then birth control itself is moraly wrong, what next the resurgence of the chastity belt?

My problem with the "Leaving abortion as an option, in these situations, ..." is how do you only leave it open for these options?

Must there be a police report? A conviction? What? And if a police report, how the <bleep> do you prevent stupid girls from filing frivolous police reports just so they can get their abortion?

Either leave it open or close it all the way.. no good answer here. You either side with government intervention and the enforcement of your morals over everyone's free will, or go with allowing freedom of choice for the individual -- Freedom to choose right from wrong, good from evil.

Brian, you promised you would stop this freaking trolling. By the way, WTF are you bozos up in Canada doing about murdering babies? Wholesale slaughter there too?

Let me put a twist on the conversation, if a rape victim is given a "morning after" pill, would this be considered an abortion, even if it was not even a diagnosed pregnacy?

I would suspect that most who consider outlawing abortion one day after conception would most likely be men or deeply religious. I'd understand it, but disagree with it.

a serious question? Hardly. You knew the answer before you posted something this butt azzed stupid.

I never heard that she was raped by Joseph? Please confirm!

Afraid of tough questions....so you just call names and throw darts. You will never change...never grow. I feel sorry for you...and anyone who must associate with you.

Let the people who are victims of rape or incest decide, not the Govt. or the thumpers. This along with anyone else, it's their choice, good, bad or evil.

I'm a pro-choice Republican. I really don't care if people abort their fetus regardless of rape or incest. It generally isn't my conservative brethren running out and aborting children, at least I wouldn't think so.

In my twisted view, more people should get 'em; the Dems love 'em so let 'em get 'em. An abortion may possibly be one less child we taxpayers have to raise collectively (on welfare).

Those are my views, please don't tear me a new ass.

Wook

I agree, people are responsible for thier own choices and good or bad they have to live with choices they make.

Ditto

Quite possibly this is the only planet in any universe with life as we know it, and we humans have such teriffic mental/social capabilities! Why are we so stupid and backwards as to not practice interaction in a way that we all benefit from? Find some deterent to stop rape and incest. Maybe it would be socially almost unacceptable, but find some way to use what reasoning we've been blessed with to do some good, instead of growling at each other like a pack of dogs. You know what I'm talking about---find and practice a way to stop these crimes against each other from repeating themselves over and over. Obviously what we find socially acceptable as a deterrent to rape and incest today is not worth the paper it's written on. Let's get real with crime and punishment...to the point that crime stops because of the use of effective deterrents. It's not rocket science, yet we let this anamalistic crap continue unabated. We're pathetic, considering how much better we COULD be doing things.

Unfortunately the rapists and incestors (sp) don't give a tinker's damn about other peoples' opinion of good and bad.

I respect your opinion, but it is the opinion of someone who does not believe abortion to be the murder of a child.

If I asked you if it should be personal choice to take the life of a one year old, what would your reply be?

Could you stand by and watch a person take the life of a one year old?

That's a pretty late term abortion...is that what we're talking about here?

I am pretty sure that most of here would agree that the only option in dealing with a one year old would be adopotion.

I have no problem with you thinking any way you want. If you are hinting that conservatives are the "good guys", however, I would respectfully disagree with that. No, I am not saying they are the "bad guys"...just that they are not all good. There are good and bad conservative folks, just as there are good and bad liberals. (My guess is that there are more closet pro-choice conservatives than you think....particularly those whose daughters have been victims of rape.)

The hunter's campfire.

There are 159 members currently on the hunter's campfire, 14 members on the general hunting forum, 24 members on the elk hunting forum, and 13 members on the deer hunting forum. That is 37 members on the on the hunting forums and 159 worried about abortion.

I would think on a hunter's campfire that on would want to talk about hunting. I wonder how many of these 159 members are going to do some serious hunting this fall. I plan on killing 3 antelope, 2 elk and a deer if I see one big enough then go to New Zealand in for the month of April.

Abortion is not going to be ended and even if it was those with the finances are going to Cananda, Mexico or Europe. And those with out the finances are going to have there babies and the goverment is going to pay.

Enough is Enough I am sending a check to the local family planning clinic today.

No not really, I'm making the point that for those who believe an embryo to be a living child, what is the difference between that embryo and a one year old child? They are both a living child in some's beliefs, so suggesting to those who believe this way the "to each their own" argument is just as futile as suggesting to you that the killing of a one year old should be left to personal choice..

It never ends that parade of newcomers arriving and dictating forum policy. Head on over to the mentioned forums if polotics isn't your bag, but why show up and try to change a forum where thousands of other members are content with the layout?

Your never going to outlaw abortion, it'll be done, without regard to laws,if need be.

You have to remember that there are doctors, who believe the choice, should be left up to the woman. These doctors will not have any issues sleeping at night, and neither will the women who visit these doctors.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Your correct that those criminals who are committing rape and incest, don't care about the victim's rights.

As you also stated, at the present time, there's not much of a deterrent, to keep the criminals from committing rape and incest upon their victims.

Sam,

You've pretty much centered up on this nail, when it comes to the lack of compromise. Though when I looked at a recent poll, it turns out that folks views on abortion are not truly black and white ( here in the U.S). 25% say always, 4% say never, and the rest are varying degrees of yes/no based on circumstances.

For instance (and let the flames begin) I personally do not believe that humanity begins at conception, but can understand why a lot of people are inclined. To me, abortion is not morally repugnant before about the 6th week or so after conception. This is an extremely arbitrary point, but is based on fetal development, plus is about a month after a woman would be missing her menstrual cycle.

Regards,
Scott

It used to be that Republicans wanted to keep government out of the bedroom. Now, they get into the bedrooom in terms of abortion (choice) or homosexulaity (gay rights), depending on your leanings. These are non-compromise issues with many people and just serve to divide us as Americans.

The old right to privacy joke. Since when is leagl and illegal defined by whether or not it is done behind closed doors?
Let's see, I think Roe vs Wade was the last tme.

I sure wouldn't blame God for rapists. Seems truly bizarre that God would plan the rape of a woman.

But, not any stranger than the case in our small town; where a local girl left for college two years ago and slept with at least 6 different black guys her friends said, and got pregnant by one. The family said that was God's plan.

I never realized that God encouraged indiscriminate sex with as many partners as possible. But then I'm told on these kinds of threads that God's plans are his own.

As far as abortion, for pregnancy by rape or incest, abortion should be readily available.

Hmmm.....Seems the "Church Lady" has disappeared. C'mon Sassy...Your answers to my questions should be interesting.

I agree: Seems bizarre that God would plan a rape. What, then, do we say to the faithful who say that God plans everything...That everything that happens is part of God's divine plan??

Interesting question: If God is responsible for all the good...Why is he/she not responsible for the bad?

Abortion is a religious thing. Christians and Pagans are never going to agree.

As to GPA, he made sense on this thread.

Now flame away!!!!

I believe life begins at conception. I also believe that any effort to terminate that life is wrong. Pretty simple for me.

It isn't a Republican thing either. I've seen too much in my life to question the existence of God and I believe that while the circumstances of a child's conception may not be perfect in God's eyes (rape, sex with the football team etc) the child is. The plan God has isn't or wasn't so much for the conception but the life that followed.

While I can't find a verse in the Bible specifically stating that an abortion is wrong, I can't find one where it is allowed either and there are several verses where the sanctity, and importance of life is reaffirmed:

"By Thee have I been holden up from the womb: Thou art He that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise [shall be] continually of Thee." - Psalms 71:6

"Lo, children [are] an heritage of the Lord: [and] the fruit of the womb [is his] reward." - Psalms 127:3

"For Thou hast possessed my reins: Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb." - Psalms 139:13

"Did not He that made me in the womb make him? And did not One fashion us in the womb?" - Job 31:15

"Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen." - Isaiah 44:2

"Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath He made mention of my name. And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb [to be] His servant, to bring Jacob again to Him, though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength." - Isaiah 49:1, 5

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." - Jeremiah 1:5

OMG.....You just committed "Campfire Suicide"!!!!!

You�d have to be really secure in your beliefs to look your daughter in the eye and explain that in addition to the shame and humiliation of being raped, she now has to carry the child of the rapist to term and deal with the humiliation and shame of spending her senior year pregnant with what everyone knows is a rapist�s child.

GPA, here is my take on abortion. And yes, you are trolling, you come here, knowing that no one is going to see things your way. You then spin people up for your own personal amusement. You like the attention, and makes you feel important because people are acknowledging your existence. If you want to talk about abortion, do it here, don't bleed your crap all over the rest of the board, not everyone wants to argue about this with you.

Abortion is a personal choice. Would I ever do it? NO. However I do not support the government sticking their nose in people's PRIVATE business.

I do not support it anymore then I would support a law saying that we could not eat beef because a Hindu president brought his religion into his policies, killing cows is wrong to him, but making laws that affect people that do not share the same beliefs is wrong.

I do not support it anymore then I would support a law saying that we can not kill animals, because a Buddhist president felt that it was wrong.

Trying to impose laws on the populous because it is what your religious beliefs say is right makes you no better then countries such as Saudi Arabia that ban pork, alcohol, and other items because they go against the religious views of the leaders. I thought we lived in the land of the free.

The reason why you are charged with a double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman is because the woman, in her PRIVATE decision, intended to give birth to, raise, and support that child. It was against the mother's will to end her and her unborn babies life.

Unborn children (to a certain point) are unable to live outside the mothers body. The child is solely reliant on the mother, they can't take the baby out and transplant it to another woman's womb. Therefore the child is a part of the mothers body, much like an apple is part of a tree.

I thought that the Christian religion was about acceptance of others beliefs (religious tolerance). "Thou shall not judge" comes to mind. I respect the fact that you may be against killing an unborn baby (as am I), and I respect your right to voice your views on the issue, and letting people know that you do not approve. I do not respect making laws based on religious beliefs. The killing of a baby is between the mother making the decision, the doctor doing the procedure, and God. You tried to tell them, and God will see that you tried to stop them from it.

Making laws based on religious beliefs would make us no better then the tyrannous Muslim nations that we so strongly oppose. What's the next step after abortion? Is it that because you feel you should go to church twice a week, that we should impose a law saying that every American should be going to church twice a week, and failing to do so would result in arrest and persecution? Are we going to making cremation illegal?

Keep your religion out of my politics, keep your politics out of my religion.

I know most here won't agree with my choice on this matter but that's ok. IMO, any woman who is made pregnant through rape or incest should have the choice to abort or not. Some of you say that the guilt of aborting a baby will haunt her but what about the guilt of being raped and made pregnant by someone you despise(sp)? Fortunately it will be a choice I won't ever have to make but for some women it will be and I feel they should have that right. Same goes for a life threatening situation, it should be the mother and fathers choice. I don't think abortion should even be considered for any other reason.

Abortion can be made illegal based on science and not religion.

Scientifically a fetus is incapable of living outside the mother's body until 20 weeks, one case has been recorded at 18 weeks.



Reference

So scientifically, a baby before that stage is a parasite, living off the oxygen and nutrients from the mother's body through the placenta and umbilical cord.

Now once again, I would never have my wife have an abortion, nor my daughter, or anyone else I had control over. But I don't try to force my beliefs on others.

No....forget trolling.....Too many on here rely on the trolling reference to substitute for sound argument to promote their position. As soon as you cry, "Trolling", I know you are playing shorthanded.

Trollin' trollin' trollin', keep GPA trollin', holy cow I'm rollin', RAWHIDE!!!!!

But there is nothing a conceived egg can become other than a human. (afaik) Sperm and egg meet and they never turn out to become leggos or a grapefruit - only a human. That means (to me) that it is a human from the very beginning and thus afforded the protection we would give any human, particularly a defenseless human.

I am not looking to convert anyone, Roe v Wade is bad law on its own, regardless of the moral side of things. It should be overturned on that to begin with.

Simply stated my belief is all.

So cancer is human, granted mutated, but human tissue. Do you feel it's ok to kill off cancer with radiation? or have surgery to remove it?

I know what you are going to say though. It can't become a living thing, but we don't know that, it may be just god hasn't made it capable of becoming it's own living being.

Just because cancer hasn't been deemed by God to become its own living breathing thing, doesn't change the fact - the scientific fact - that when a human sperm and egg meet; it can only become human. Something that can and will live on it's own at some point in time. That's all the evidence I need to see that life begins at conception and as long as we are a group of animals that (for the most part) value life, it deserves to be protected.

Scott,

"I personally do not believe that humanity begins at conception, but can understand why a lot of people are inclined"

If not at conception; then when?

Lumpia,

"I thought that the Christian religion was about acceptance of others beliefs (religious tolerance). "Thou shall not judge" comes to mind."

Christianity is tolerant of others wanting to follow whatever faith they choose. It does NOT accept those others views as correct; otherwise they wouldn't be Christian, would they. For all faiths to do so would be ridiculous. Please don't take "Thou shall not judge" out of context in regards to the beliefs of other faiths.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

So if Barak Obama gets elected, and say he IS Muslim. Would you be ok with him outlawing pork (and I mean like ham and bacon)? It doesn't affect your religion at all, and it would be in alignment of his views. Nothing wrong there right?

take your azz out along with the check

When this subject come up, I always ask this question.. and NEVER get an answer...........

US aborions per year have dropped to under a million;depending on the source. That's great!

But, every year, tens of thousands of children who are eligible for adoption, go unadopted. Every year!

I firmly believe that any woman who decides to abort a child pretty much leaves no doubt that she sure as hell doesn't want this baby. So........ if she is forced to deliver the child, I'm guessing that it would be put into the "adoption pool." Or abused. Sure, Some would do OK.

But if just half, or 500,000, were up for adoption each year, who would take them? That's my question.

Again, there are tens (actually over a hundred thousand) children right, this minute who have been passed over. Can we handle a few million more in the next few years?

Then I guess you're saying that we shouldn't have laws regarding the killing of others, hm? Because you can't have it both ways.

As the bumper sticker says, "It's not a choice. It's a child."

Penny

I had 2 abortions for breakfast, over easy in fact.

Guess what, it didn't taste like chicken.

Others can answer your questions, GPA... but not I. I'm done having conversations with you.

Penny

But there is... one of the ten commandments says, "You shall not commit murder." The taking of an innocent life is murder.

Penny

Therein lies the rub. Most human's I know breath oxygen.

How about this for a bumper sticker, "It's not your choice. It's not your child."

I can't speak for the doctors, but I have personally known a number of women who have very real difficulties sleeping at night because of abortions they have had. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it would be the rare woman who would be able to sleep soundly...

Penny

If you're talking about this "church lady," I have a full-time job and a life beyond the Campfire.

But as I told you in my previous post, I'm not interested in responding to any questions you might ask.

Penny

What has always done it for me is the observation that the fetus is a

1. LIVING
2. HUMAN
3. INDIVIDUAL.

All three of those attributes are completely uncontroversial. Remove any one of them, and I'd have no problem with disposing of the result; but with all three present, I have to say the fetus is a person.

I believe abortion is murder. I don't, in principle, oppose it being outlawed as a violation of a person's right to life.

However, from a practical point of view I have never seen a law against abortion that I could support. I don't denigrate the possibility that someday someone smarter than I will come up with such a law; but so far the proposed laws I have seen are either ineffectual, unenforceable, or would lead to an even wider violation of individual rights.

Of course, Roe v. Wade is itself an abortion of jurisprudence and a national embarrassment, and should be overturned on those grounds alone.

I've also know some women that were content with their decision to abort. Obviously a 10 year old isn't of the mind to figure it out on her own, but she was of the body to get pregnant by her grandfather.

I am glad they made the decision to abort.

No, he didn't make any sense at all. But I'd rather respond to those who ask questions sincerely than feed the trolls.

Penny

Beautifully said!!! You've got it. God takes our wrong choices and decisions and the evil acts of people and brings good out of them.

Penny

Then one had better start handing out Social Security numbers during sex.

I'm not one to abort but I'd fight any of you that would force a 10 year old to carry a baby that is the product of her being raped by a family member. You can all kiss my ass on that one.

I agree.

Huh????

Penny

I can jam my head up a woman's you know what but I had better pull out in a few minutes because I wouldn't be able to breath in there.

That is the litmus test for human. If one breaths liquid they are a fish.

Then we should allow people to kill others if they wish, hm? Someone mentioned a year-old child. Is that okay?

Penny

Taking it to the extreme Penny. If it was outlawed, would you send a 10 year old that had an abortion to jail?

And for the record, I think there are plenty of over 40 folks that should be considered for abortion........

I agree. I would never abort a child even if my wife was raped. But what right does someone else have to tell someone else that they can't? Unless you volunteer the time and money to raise that child, and adopt as many children as you can possibly afford, I cannot support something that takes away someone's individual rights that drastically effect their life.



Can you count a fetus as an individual before it can live outside the mother's body?

Can you count a fetus as living before it can live outside the mother's body?

As Steelhead said, humans breathe air. Fetus's lungs and airways are not developed to a point that they can breathe air until at least 16 weeks. So does a fetus count as a human before it can breathe air?



A one year old child can breathe air. If the mother perish's the child can survive. It has developed airways.

Once again, I do not personally support abortion, however I want the government to stay out of people's business. It is a personal choice, and the government needs to stay out of people's personal choices.

That is not the average abortion situation. It is probably something like 1 in a million, or even less than that.

Penny

So right up until the moment that the baby takes its first breath on its own after birth, it is not human???? Hmmmmm....

Penny

Of course not.

Penny

But it is a situation I saw first hand when I was a volunteer for the Florida Guardian ad Litem program.

So how would you deal with that?

Methinks if you and Barak spent less time preaching to those how committed rape and incest and put that effort towards raising kids that were born out of incest, you would have more credit.

The fact the Barak talks about preaching to incest dudes, but not spending time looking in the face of a pregnant 10 year old speaks VOLUMES about your priorities.

I'll take a heathen that gives a damn about LIVING, BREATHING children any day over a believer that preaches to RAPISTS.

YMMV

What if I get sick of the folks in the house next door parking in my driveway, and I decide to make sure that they really never do it again... by going over and shooting them. The government ought to stay out of my personal choice, right?

Penny

So a baby with no airways is a magic human?

Or Aqua Man's kid.

The neighbor parking in your driveway can breathe air. If you kill their mother, they will continue to live. They have developed airways.

I don't know... I'd have to think about it. That would probably be a case of one life vs. another... rather than simply getting rid of an unwanted pregnancy (i.e. forcing a 10 year-old to bear a child would be a real medical risk to her).


Barak and I both go where God leads us, and He has led us into prison. And it's God's credit that interests me, no one else's.


To be honest, I doubt we could find a pregnant 10 year-old if we tried. But as I said above, we go where God leads us. It's always the best place to be and the highest priority to have.


I know you've got your own personal reasons for hating those in prison. And I would never suggest that you go spend time with those who are there. I wouldn't presume to tell you what your priorities should be; please don't tell me what mine should be.

Penny

Not surprising: When threatened and your beliefs begin to quake, then just stick your head in the sand and pretend you are right and old GPS is wrong!

Not sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that the presence of airways is what makes something human? I thought it was the cell DNA...

Penny

Full time job?? Not in French Literature, is it?

Say what??....You are beginning to sound like Herr Howell.

Pretty good cop out. I say deal with those that need the help (children) and not rapists.

Rapists/incest freaks are adults you deal with, they had their chance at making the correct decision. I on the other hand will continue to help KIDS that haven't had the chance yet.

I do know that one blanket statement doesn't cover the situation and every case is it's own. Barak mentioned INDIVIDUAL, well every ABORTION case is an individual basis, just as every murderer/rapist you deal with I guess.

Ironic that we not summon up Science.

Oh it is, but human blood has DNA in it, if I cut my finger and a drop of blood lands on the floor. Did I just kill part of myself? By your thinking, when you conceive a child, you just committed 49,999,999 acts of murder. Each sperm has DNA in it, and it dies when they don't get in. That's an awful lot of sin.

My point is that you can't make other people's decisions for them. You can give them guidance about what you think is right. You can attempt to help them through the problem. You cannot make the decision for them. If someone wants to have an abortion, you can try to change their mind about it. You can offer your council about the situation. But if they still decide to go through with it. Your conscience should be clear. You tried to do your part. You tried to help them see the light. But in the end, the only people that abortion affects is the people making the decision to do so, the doctor doing the abortion, and God. Trying to force it down other people's throat is only going to make them push you further away.

You left out someone... the child who is being killed.

Penny

No you don't know. But you are correct, I shouldn't presume to tell you what to do, nor should you presume to tell a 10 year old (or any age) incest victim what their priorities should be.

Shame on you.

For the record, a child RAPED is already a child killed.

Fair enough. You are not that child, you are not the person having the abortion, you are not the doctor doing the abortion, and you are certainly not God. So you are not involved, it does not affect you.

But she cares enough to help those that have committed the crime. Screw the victims.

Besides, it's far easier to keep an audience when they are surrounded by bars.

yes, innocence lost, its heartbreaking

Hardly.

I know several adults who were molested as children. They might be a bit screwed up, some of them, but they're certainly not dead.

Hysterical hyperbole isn't particularly useful.

Of course, neither is this discussion.

Dude, you are so far removed it ain't even fun. You talked with ADULTS.

Did you talk to them as children? What you don't know is amazing to me.

She is not God.....Just God's self-appointed agent!

Look into the eyes of a 13 year old that has been raped for several years and tell me that the child in them hasn't been killed.


What a friggin idiot you are.

So if I happen upon a murder in progress, or someone being severely beaten, or some other harm one person is doing to another... I should just go on about my way? It doesn't concern me, after all...

Penny

If my wife was brutally raped and became pregnant I don't think I could or she could choose abortion. You can bet every last cent to your name that I would abort the SOB that did it. But it ain't the kids' fault......I'd be just as loving to that child as one of my own......with a lot of Gods' help.

Or so I like to think.

Barak, you have commited 80,000 acts of murder in the last 2 minutes. 80,000 skin cells containing DNA fell from your body and died.

Extreme again Penny. Big difference between Barak being beaten buy a bunch of queer muggers and an incest child getting an abortion, though I wish it weren't so.

Actually, in most Kairos prisons there's a waiting list of dozens if not hundreds to get into Kairos. And in all Kairos prisons the prisoners are perfectly free to leave the proceedings anytime they want; the prison doesn't (legally can't) prevent them. Sometimes they do. There's a point during the weekend after which Kairos does not allow them to come back if they leave, of course.

My very first Kairos Weekend, I was given to understand that one of the prisoners was there under duress. He claimed that he was there because he'd gotten a "Class A pass" to be there, and the guy beside me said that meant he had to come. (For the record, he had a terrific time and managed to turn a corner in his life.) Nowhere else have I encountered anyone who was forced into Kairos, and I suspect I may have misunderstood about that one guy, since it was my first Weekend.

We joke about having a captive audience in Kairos, but we really don't.

Please explain to me how I am helping those who have committed the crime.

And we should have love and compassion for all human beings: including prisoners, victims, and unborn children.

Penny

That deserves a quote for '[bleep]' up thoughts

That is your personal choice. If that is what you decide to do to preserve yourself, your family, your livelyhood. What are you going to try for a law now that says I have to go look for murders in my area to try to subdue them? What about if they have a gun and you don't? Are you going to charge them and hope that God's Will is going to keep you from being shot? Now what if the person being murdered was a doctor who performed abortions? Would you be ok with it then?

Here's what I do know: somebody killed as a child doesn't grow into an adult.

Give it up: you're better than this. Ditch the hysterical hyperbole and take a different tack.

Of course, because they are in prison. Where else would folks line up to hear an autistic cop phoebe talk?

I can't speak for the doctors, but I have personally known a number of women who have very real difficulties sleeping at night because of abortions they have had. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it would be the rare woman who would be able to sleep soundly...

Penny

quote]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There's women out there, that it doesn't bother them, that they've had abortions, they sleep just fine.

I hope you don't believe what those prison princess's tell you, hook line and sinker.

I know they got set up by the mean old court system ,dirty cops, dirty DA's dirty judges, or their own dirty defense attorney.

It wasn't their drugs, they were just holding for someone else. They also didn't know that their boyfriend was cooking Meth. or that the boyfriend was going to rob the market on the corner.

Oh! i forgot you can't ask them, what their crime was, but i bet a few tell you don't they?

The big point is no matter how hard the holy rollers, try to force their opinion upon others. The act of giving abortions will go on, within the medical world. There's plenty of takers for the service.

Years ago they blew up an abortion clinic in Birmingham, Al. killed a bunch of folks, do you think that stopped the practice within that city? The same type of bombings occured in other places in the SE at abortion clinics, do you think it ended, the practice throughout the region?

The choice should be that of the woman. That choice shouldn't be determined by Govt/law or some fanatic Bible Brigade.

I only wish you were better at this.

It isn't. How many kids that have been raped have you spoke with?

Let's stop talking about an incest child getting an abortion. I already said that that would be a special case and a decision would have to be made (probably to abort the pregnancy) because a pregnancy and birth would be likely to take the life of the 10 year-old mother.

So please stop trying to make it seem that I am in favor of forcing that particular child to have the baby.

Penny

A skin cell is LIVING and HUMAN, but not an INDIVIDUAL. Same for the cancerous tumor being discussed awhile back. Neither has any rights; therefore there are no rights to be violated.

A corpse is HUMAN and INDIVIDUAL, but not LIVING. Again, no rights.

An eight-point whitetail buck is a LIVING INDIVIDUAL, but not HUMAN. No rights.

But a fetus is all three; therefore, in my book, imbued with human rights.

There have certainly been people in history who did not ascribe human rights to LIVING HUMAN INDIVIDUALs. Generally, though, those situations tend not to turn out well.

So what about the 80,000 murder skin cells that fell off your body? They do have human DNA, so it was murder right?

Ok Penny, silly me, I was just following the topic of the thread




Seems my points are rather germane, considering.

You bring up a good point that blackens the eyes of the "rollers": Abortion is bad...but bombing clinics and killing doctors who might perform abortions is OK....Weird the way these suckers think!

Religion and alcohol have much in common including-----they should be taken in moderation. While some feel what you and your better half do is a honorable thing with the inmates I truely feel that public hangings would do more good!! Rapists and murderers----kill them all then let the worms have them.

A fetus in the first trimester is the same as a corpse, no pulse, can't breathe air. It's a bunch of cells made up with human DNA. We're talking scientifically here.

Huh? I don't understand.

Hey, Penny...how many prisons is Kairos in worldwide these days? I've served in five, or six to press a point. Subtract those six, add up the populations of all the others, and there's your group of folks who'd come to Kairos even if it didn't have me.

Did I say that? Sheesh.


This has veered way off the main topic and into the realm of lunacy. I'm about ready to go and grade exams (which is what I should have been doing for the last hour...)

Penny

The best response I've heard to the issue is, if you believe someone should be killed in the case of rape and incest, by all means kill the perpetrator of the crime, not the innocent child.

So....What you are saying is that you favor abortion in SOME cases, right?

I'm just taking things to the same extreme that you do. Just in a different direction.

So who decides if a child carries the kid, you?

Not the same as a corpse. A fetus is alive.

If it's not alive, why do you need an abortion to kill it?

The don't need one to kill it, just to remove it.

Abortion brings the little kid out in you.

Penny. What is a Kairos prison? I have heard of the Kairos Foundation and there life trainning course is that the same.

Been over this before, but here goes. Then just take it out of the mother and put it in another mother. If it's alive then it should have no problem being moved from one host body to another host body.

It's what folks that can't relate to people do.

I know many pro-life folks, none of which think that bombing an abortion clinic is okay.

Taking an extreme example and pretending that everyone is like that is just plain, well, stupid...

Penny

It's what you have been doing Penny.

Which is exactly what you are doing when you put all abortions in one basket. I don't know of anyone that is using abortion as a steady form of birth control. That is an extreme example, and you are pretending that everyone is like that. And that's just plain, well, stupid....

I don't believe so. We're connected with Kairos Prison Ministry International. You can find out about it here.

If you click on the "Ministry Map" link to the left, you can see if Kairos is active in your state or country.

Penny

Okay, Scott. I'm done with you as well. When you want to be nasty, you can be nasty with the best of them.

Go be nasty with someone else. I'm not taking any more of your abuse.

Penny

Please show me the post where I said that. Until you can do that, I'm done talking with you as well.

Go bully someone else.

Penny

Not bullying anyone, I'm just arguing my opinion. It's not my fault that your way of thinking has more holes then a block of swiss shot with a scattergun. Not everyone has the same beliefs as you, and the sooner you realize that, and lead your life where you worry about you and yours, and worry less about me and mine, we'll all be a lot happier.

Personally, I truly believe that sex offenders, and gay people and OCD and whatever, are born that way. Mentally screwed from the get go. Genetics.

Culling the fetus is probably a good idea regardless of one's beliefs.

Religious Zealots who are Anarchists are even scarier than the most liberal of the Osama Types! Be scared very scared..

The problem is that many see it as no worse than going to the Dentist to have a tooth extracted.They can not abstaine,cannot or will not use any self control.Expect to see more of this murder when Hussien takes office.

Ok, when the going gets tough you get going. You asked me not to bring up INCEST when that is what the post was titled. You mention extreme examples when that is what you do.

What would you like me to do Penny, what can I do to make it easier for you? Why do you chose perverts over needy children?

Obviously another person that can't read 'Victims of Rape and Incest'

I put GPA on ignore long ago, Penny. Figured out early on he was a trouble maker.

As to your views on abortion, they pretty much mirror mine, only you explain them much better than I can. Thanks.

And if anyone speaks to GPA, please explain to him not to try to bring me into his mindless drivel and to never mention my name again. Thanks.

So you would look into the eyes of a 10 year old girl that was raped by her grandfather and tell her SHE HAD TO HAVE THE BABY?

Hardly, Mannlicher, hardly. Go back to bed and get up on the right side this time.

I actually READ THE BIBLE regularly instead of ranting and raving about it. It does not mention abortion, as near as I can tell. So what is the theological basis for opposing abortion?

I do not believe in abortion. That is my right and an unending argument otherwise will not change my mind. I'm not going to argue with anyone nor am I going to say anymore than I have said on the subject. It is between me and God.

You can answer the question I asked you?

Obviously if you were married to a man that got your son's/daughter's child pregnant when said child was 10 you would be full on for said child having the child?

Regardless of the fact that you didn't have enough brains or internal strength to keep your husband from having sex with your child's 10 year old child?

It's easy to dismiss a 10 year old being pregnant by her grandfather, but put faces and names to it.

I really like you but on this subject we have to disagree. Yes, I would tell a 10 year old she had to have the baby. It would be God's decision as to whether or not she would bear it. I'm sorry that we differ but that's the way it is for me. I am now going to read only on this subject.

That is exactly how I believe in abortion from a personal standpoint. But I don't want the government sticking their nose in yet another thing that they will only make a bigger mess of then it already is.

Who is going to raise the kid, you? You didn't even know your husband was screwing you kid's kid.

Forcing a 10 year old to carry a baby to term is just sick. What the hell is the matter with you people?

I�m on board with a lot of Barak�s freedom and liberty shtick but this doesn�t seem to be consistent. In the case of the 10 year old, where is her liberty not to be forced to carry some sick rapist�s child. Who is the victim here?

Well the grandfather of course, he was possessed by demons.

Oh, another Kairos Prison Ministry sign-up.

And still, no one has addressed my question.

Refresh my memory.

What did the 10 yr old say she wanted to do? Or was she told she wanted to have an abortion? Just curious.

I think the silence speaks volumes. No one is going to take care of them. It is God's will that the grow up with no one to love them (except God, and that should be enough).

His question is who is going to take care of all these kids that are up for adoption.

Do you honestly think a 10 year old that has been raped for the past 2 years to be able to make a sound decision? She didn't know what was going on, obviously NO one in her family was worth a [bleep], plus there were obvious medical issues.

It's akin to the 6 year old that showed up at my door proclaiming Jesus Christ as her savior

Good point. She says that although it would be cool to have a baby kinda like a real, live dolly, she doesn�t want to take a chance take a chance on dying being that she is pretty much pre pubescent and all. Plus she thinks it would be nice to try to get back to being a little kid again as soon as possible after being raped and all.

So she was told/forced to have an abortion?

I'm not judging I'm curious about that specific case.

It's supposed to be about choice so what age does choice kick in? That's why I asked.

We are not to be allowed to "make" someone carry a baby so can the State "make" someone not carry it?

So since we are playing the "we know what's best" for others why can't we say it's best for them to carry the baby to birth?


wWas supposed to quote billhilly's last post!

She didn't have the child, she had a miscarriage about the 3rd month. Medical issues, I believe, would have called for the abortion.

Did they do a DNA test on the dead baby to see if it matched the Grandpa...Best evidence and all?

It was the grandfathers.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That's a little bizarre, you ever belonged to a West Texas religious commune? You don't wear a long skirt and keep your hair in a bun, do you?

I'ld have CPS on any adult, who tried to force a child into that. I'ld work night and day to prosecute anyone involved, if that was the case.

I believe that is what is called God's will.

Notice I said I believe.

Thank you for answering the questions.

It would obviously be a tough situation that NOBODY should have to deal with and I appreciate those that insert themselves willingly into them.


Mike

It's tough telling a kid that it was God's will. That means her getting raped and pregnant by the family member was God's will. I understand what you mean but one needs to be careful with the words used around children.

I know Barak has spoken with ADULTS that were incest victims, but he hasn't been around the kids. I could tell you some [bleep] up stories.

If you want to say it�s best for a 10 year old rape victim to have to carry the resulting pregnancy to term, go right ahead.

This wasn�t my scenario anyway. I was thinking about looking your 17 year old daughter in the eye and explaining that in addition to the shame and humiliation of being raped, she now has to carry the child of the rapist to term and instead of trying out for cheerleader or playing basketball, she gets to deal with the humiliation and shame of spending her senior year pregnant with what everyone knows is a rapist�s child.

Steelie nothing about Christianity or God's divine plan ever said bad things wouldn't happen to good people.

I don't claim to have all of the answers, but I will someday!

The Devil rules this old earth but the truth is out there for those who are willing to embrace it.

If I was faced with the task of counseling advising that 10 yr old I would seek God's face. I would ask for discernment. I do know that our God is a longsuffering, forgiving God and His word states His ways are not our ways.

But you are talking to an adult, kids is different. They don't have the same rationale that we do. Hence the being careful with words.

Far to many folks is turned off God by others using the words "God's will" most especially with children I believe.

I wouldn't force my 17 yr old to do anything. I would have raised her in the fear and admonition of the Lord and pray that she made the right choice and support her decision.

SICK SICK SICK!!!!! YOU are no better than the people we are fighting in IRAQ!!!!! You sound like those nuts in Texas who let the children get married at 13 and who knows what else.

I am not disagreeing with you on that point and I'm certainly no child psychiatrist or behavioral development specialist.

Mike

Good answer!

You know, it is kinda funny that God would will abortion (miscarriage for the 10 year old) yet His followers are so steadfast opposed to it for any reason.

Dear Lord, protect me from Your followers.

I actually pray for that daily.

I don't see the problem. I don't claim man is equal to God! He is Lord and Master. I have a problem with Dr's and others putting themselves in the place of God and ending an innocent life.

What do you pray to lizards, aliens, rocks?

If you pray it to the One tru God then you are asking for protection from yourself...which some people need!

Mike

Careful, you sound like a lib<grin>......

Nobody's innocent, that whole original sin thing.

You are right, but there is a Grace period until the age of accountability is reached. Yes that is different for each person's ability to understand.


edited for spelling...dang their/there thing again!!

Or in the position and deciding what is best for another.

Where can I look up that grace period?

What is Palin's take on abortion?

Don't matter to me.

That goes back to the murdering of innocents that y'all talked about several pages back.

I believe in the Bible, it says "Thou shall not murder."

My belief of what takes place in the abortion process, is the murdering a human.

I will feel secure standing before God someday standing on my belief.

Mike

I believe she said she was against it even for rape and incest. I also believe she modified that somewhat by saying that was her personal belief and she wouldn�t want to force it on anyone.

Give me a minute to walk the dog and dig up some text.

Exactly, I do pray for protection from myself. But more of people who are incapable of thinking for themselves, and using logic and a thought process to figure out problems. God gave us a brain to think with, if he wanted puppets that he had to control every little thing he did, we would be made of felt and have holes in our backs. Instead he gave us guidance to follow, and a lot of the problem I have with many religious groups is that they decipher that guidance improperly. There's no real way for us to know until it's too late for us to change it.

As do I. I'd rather explain how I allowed a 12 year old that was pregnant through incest get an abortion than explain how I MADE her have the child.


One is far more self serving, and ME don't factor in.

So did you ever go to combat when you were in the Army? If so, was an innocent person's life ever ended of your doing? If so, that was murder, and you are no better then the people that you dislike for murdering a human.

I'd bet she's against it, her youngest boy has down syndrome.

"As for people who think a baby like Trig shouldn't even be born, look around, the governor wrote. Who is perfect or even normal? "

Yep, but she weren't raped at age 12 by her dad.

Well this thread sure turned spirited.

I still believe it boils down to a personal belief and opinion of when a child becomes a child. What difference would it make to a true believer whether or not the child was a product of rape or incest? For those who believe a four week old fetus to be a child who is innocent of the act of rape or incest, why should that child pay for the crime that brought them life?

Myself like others here don't make the connection that a four week old embryo to be the same as a breathing child, but after four months my opinion changes; however those who do believe an embryo to be the same, all I can do is understand their point of view and when the majority believes as they do, it shall be.

I find it interesting that the smartest s.o.b.'s in the universe (that we know of) can only argue, without benefit to either side.

I was in the Middle East prior to, during and after Desert Shield and Desert Storm and participated in them as well. I was not involved in any killing. The few that were killed by members of my unit were all combatants.

Mike

I almost hate to use Wikipedia as a source, but they seem to have the most concise explaination of the theory or belief.




Credobaptists believe that saving grace and church membership are gifts from God by the recipient's faith alone and cannot be imparted or transferred from one believer to another person (such as from parent to child) by sacraments such as baptism. These tenets render infant baptism useless within their belief system. Because infants cannot hear or believe the gospel message, they also cannot repent and need not repent or confess Christ as the Son of God. Children are already subjects of the kingdom of God (Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16), until they come to the age of accountability of their own sins.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Believers_Baptism





Mat 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.


Mar 10:14
But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.


Luk 18:16
But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.



Mike

Please go to the link and read further for more explaination.

It is way past my bedtime I'll get back tomorrow

Thank you for being willing to see and understand the other side of the issue, even if you don't agree... without name-calling, casting aspersions on others' faith, or proclaiming that they are spending their time doing the wrong thing. Thank you for being a decent guy and respecting others, and being mature enough not to let your posts evolve into just plain nastiness and bullying.

Penny

Sassy??....Sassy who?....Who is Sassy?

"In fear of the Lord".....Interesting concept. Me, I prefer loving God to fearful God!

I recall reading that there is an organization of people who were born of rape.

It should make one think.

Paul

In the Bible's context it generally means respect more than be afraid of...but you already know that and are trying to mince words.


Mike

God was no push over. Look at Sodom and Gomorrah...

How many thousands were smote on his command. That is why I hate to see people look at Christians as needing a crutch or weak sheeple as has been portrayed on this very board in the past.

Real Men Love Jesus


Mike

Holy Smokes,
I just got done reading 10 pages of this discussion and have to say I've never devoted much time to think about the issue as it's never affected me or my family. I honestly don't know anyone that's had an abortion; I may know someone that has, but I just don't know it as it's a private matter and not public.

That being said, I'll stick my foot in the door and have to say that the polarizing views of the "christian far right" such as the Baraks and Ready-on-the-right does little to improve the situation or lead to any possible solution. Everyone be damned, they know what's right for you and your life and your soul.

I think some very good points have been made regarding when "life" begins and I think that is the key pivot point in finding a reasonable solution- (I used the word "reasonable" on purpose as for some people reasonable just isn't an option- they know what they know and any proof just gets in the way).

Steelhead and Lumpia have it right and I believe that the majority concensus agrees that life begins when it can exist on its own. If it can't exist on its own it can't be "murdered" as their is no life to take. To say that life begins at conception is ludicrous. Just because all the ingredients for life is there it doesn't mean life will be a result. There is a tipping point or a pivot point when the pregnancy is far enough along that it changes from developing cells into a sustainable life. That should mean life begins at the point when the fetus can live outside the woman's woman. That is the crux of the discussion.

Despite what christion zealots believe, no one is "pro-abortion"; maybe the better term for pro-choice should be pro-option as it doesn't seem to connotate only 2 choices.
While I don't agree with everything that former Mayor Guilianni believes or has done, I think that his lowering the number of unwanted pregnancies, lowering the number of abortions and increasing the number of adoptions in NYC is a program that everyone can support as its positive movement in a direction that everyone can agree with.

OH, and one last thing before I abort my rambling posting:
I am tired of hearing about GOD'S WILL and SATAN's DOINGS. Who are you people to determine what God's will is and what calamity's are the result of Satin's doings versus what is God's will? You can keep your own belief's but keep your beliefs out of my life and business.

Here is a link to a series of stories by people who were conceived through rape. Every single one of them is strongly pro-life, and against abortion even in cases of rape and incest.

Interesting reading.

Penny

I wouldn�t call Ready on the Right a zealot. He agreed that if faced with the situation, he would ultimately council his daughter and support her decision. That doesn�t seem too radical to me.

Nor to me. But the tactic of the left is to twist words, take things out of context, blow things out of proportion, and then slap the label "religious zealot" on anyone who doesn't see things their way.

If it cannot be proven when life begins, I'd rather err on the conservative side...

Penny

IMO, it boils down to being able to put your beliefs aside for the welfare of the child in that situation. God knows whats in your heart.

YMMV

You have control over your wife? What do you do beat her?

I haven't had time to go through the last 10 pages, good grief I don't have the time. GPA has made this point a number of times and I think he has point. It seems when ever someone doesn't agree with the herd we quickly brand them as trolls. Does that mean we must all agree? I don't agree with GPA on much and some times I think he may be stirring the pot but does that always mean he is a troll? For writing this post does that mean I'm a troll?

The fact of the matter is that it is not up to you to decide if someone can or cannot have an abortion, it is the individuals choice. I don't agree with most abortions but IMO there are cases where it should be allowed, ie, rape, incest, and the health of the mother. Another issue I see is so many people trying to force feed their religion onto those who aren't religious and by beating this horse the way they do doesn't help their cause. I was saved once but the hypocrisy, force feeding, and lying turned me away from it. To each their own I say and let them deal with it in their own way.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like most here don't consider abortion to be about the mother-to-be. She is pregnant because of something immoral and illegal having happened to her---by someone immoral and illegal--not because of something she's chosen.
Who are we---for whatever reason--to tell her what to do with the rest of HER life? That seems pretty pompous.
I think if some male is found guilty of rape or incest he should have his nuts cut off. Where does that "eye for an eye" thing come in, or isn't it fashionable anymore to have convictions like that?

Good post Bullet!

And just about every other issue I can think of..

Great post, Sam.

I have a couple of friends that I think the world of. In order to maintain that relationship, we never talk about religion or politics. Ya'll ought to try that.

For some reason I hear "De De De" when I read some of these responses. It may surprise you to know that all of our laws based on a moral principal (murder, rape, theft, ad infintum) are indeed based on British Common Law, which was based on The Ten Commandments. Yes, the very ones that Moses brought down from MT Sinai. The same ones that are in that best selling book called the Bible.

For all those who choose to deny the existence of God or His will and plans will one day see the light. It will however probably be too late to make amends, but that is the true definition of free will. You will not be able to say you didn't know that Jesus died for your sins because you will be looking Him in the eyes and will see the nail scars in His hands.

He will then know that you chose to reject His love for you and will send you to your reward. However, that does not need to happen, because God loves all of us and wants us to know and love Him. I'm not trying to be harsh or unkind. I'm just telling the truth. Christianity is not a religion of coercion, but of love.

John 3:15-17

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The idea is not to punish a woman with a rapists baby. But as Penny stated so well, how do we know what God has planned for that child? Aren't we playing God when we take the power of what child lives and what child dies into our small hands and minds?

P.S.
GPA hasn't been right yet!
P.S.S.
Off of the thumper soapbox now.

I have no problem with what you say but why do you think as a Christian, you and other Christians have the right to tell the rest of us pagans and heathens what we should do? We have a different take on things. Don't we have rights too? Or is it only Christians who have rights?

YOU are the one who read ten pages so keep YOUR life out of my beliefs!

What qualifies you to decide when life begins?

The Bible, which I try to live by although I don't often succeed, says to paraphrase, " I knew you in the womb."

I believe we have grown babies in test tubes so I'm tired of all of this talk about not surviving blah, blah, blah.

A plant lives in a pot does that make it not alive?

Yeah cause everybody knows that murder, rape, and theft were cool with everybody before the Ten Commandments. Hammurabi didn�t really exist.

I've been too busy with real work to address these erroneous assertions earlier today, but want to inject some medical reality here.

First: fetuses can and do survive premature birth with good NICU care at much earlier gestational age than 20 weeks. I was at a medical conference earlier this year where one of the speakers was a renowned neonatologist in Chicago. He cited several of his numerous NICU successes, including a girl born at 13 weeks gestational age whose 16th birthday party he had recently attended. In other words, with appropriate NICU support, many aborted infants could survive. The Illinois legislature attempted to pass a law a few years back making it illegal for doctors/hospitals to provide resuscitative/life-support measures to aborted (but living!) infants. The very fact that they felt the need for such laws calls into question the fundamental flaw in the assertion that "life begins at 28 [or whatever benchmark you care to pick] weeks".

Second: the medical information you cite at WebMD is simplistic and outdated. To say that there is "no reliable or medically acceptable tests for viability prior to 28 weeks gestation" is, essentially, meaningless. The definition of "viability" in a court of law in 1989 has as much applicability to today's medical technology environment as trying to install vacuum tubes in your 2008-vintage laptop. This decision was/is outdated law based on science that was, in fact outdated before the Missouri court rendered its decision. In point of fact, any fetus from at least 13 weeks gestational age and up that is thriving such that it must be "from his mother's womb untimely ripp'd" (to steal from the Bard), has a very good chance of survival with application of NICU life support. An infant that is producing blood pressure and is metabolizing nutrients, whether on a respirator in an NICU or in a shoebox on a shelf by the woodstove (my cousin, born at 32 weeks gestation, was "incubated" thus by his grandmother in the 50's), is by any definition of the word alive. Considering the FACT that NICU's in the USA routinely save preemies as young as 22-24 weeks gestational age, and have better-than-even chances of saving kids down to 16 weeks gestational age, and have successfully saved babies down to 13 weeks gestational age, underscores that the definition of the term viability has taken on a completely new practical meaning, and the 28-week viability benchmark cited in the case above is at best outdated.


Third: a parasite, by definition, is an individual of one species that lives in or on an individual of another species. A human fetus is, by definition, NOT a parasite, despite that term being fashionable among some segments of society.

Thank you for shedding some expertise on the subject.


Mike

I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon of sides on this issue, other than offering a simple statement.......

Look into the eyes of your expecting wife and hold your hand on her stomach, feeling your daughter or son moving and kicking...................Then tell me when life begins.


If you can handle murder, you can handle abortion................it's that simple.

Even in the incest rape of a 10 year old?

Everyone knows this argument will vigorously and righteously go on forever without resolution,right?

The demarcation lines are not only drawn,but inbred. Live with the differing opinions folks. As to this, it's a 50-50 world and it will never change.

That's why, for me, abortion has become a election issue outside of my top 3.

FWIW...if my daughter became impregnated by a physically forced and violent act of submission and tortuous humiliation, I'd back up, with all my heart,brain and vigor...her decision...not my desires. I am not a controlling player in that scheme!

Like I said, I'm not trying to jump on sides, but any man that takes that simple test I described above will definitely know when life begins........

Abortion is murder in my book, but trying to apply that with some reason is a damn hard thing to do, and your case is a perfect example of that.

I'm on the fence about goverment stepping in on the process, but have no misconceptions about what it really is, which is no medical procedure, rather straight-up murder.

The case you're using as an example is as bad as it can get to determine the direction one would lean, and I'd sure as hell hate to have to be the one to make the call.

Now, as to what to do with the grandfather; I don't believe any amount of pain and suffering could be administered to him that would be harsh enough to even come close to rectifying what he did. His end should not be swift.

Amen Brother! Good to see your directions on point for a change.......

I'd never 'ask' a women to have an abortion, in fact I'd go HARD the other way.

But a child that went through what that little girl did, it's a no-brainer.

The point being, it's impossible to have one blanket 'law' to cover everything. As bad as you think you have seen, I'm certain in man's ability to step it up.

Case by case and that don't factor into laws, so let the woman decide.

And therein lies the problem. Most people, when asked say they accept some restrictions on abortion. The majority of the electorate is neither 100% pro-life or 100% pro-choice. And the extreme positions are split about 50/50 with neither side willing to conceded anything, and it's not a issue that CAN be compromised on by those with strong feelings in the matter.

Well, I've walked this debate, not just talked it............Believe me, there are few things on this issue that are a true no-brainer. Some perhaps easier than others, but none easy.

One can only pray that they'd be lucky enough to never have to deal with what you actually did. I can't imagine talking to a 10 year old about having a baby from a grandfather that molested her. I'm sure there are worse situations, but few come to mind.

Steelie... bro, you've obviously been deeply affected by your experience with that 10-year-old, and I respect that without question. I too have looked into the eyes of girls and women who have been subjected to abuse beyond the capacity of any man--and few women--to fully comprehend.

But let me say--gently and kindly, with all respect--that your experience was an extreme case. Extremely extreme, really. So to use that as the examplar by which all pregnancies conceived by rape or incest, while useful as an example of one extreme, fails to take into account the majority of cases. The website Penny posted a few pages ago was an interesting read, but I couldn't help noting that almost all of the adults who'd been conceived via sexual assault had been date-raped or acquaintance-raped (whatever the buzzword term is), which, while a terrible ordeal for the victim, does not compare to the horror of being raped by a stranger or gang of strangers while in fear for one's life.

Whether we care to admit it or not, there are degrees of sexual assault, and there are degrees of incest. And there are a lot of twists to the possibilities. I know a teenage boy who was 'sexually assaulted' by his 20-something aunt, who became pregnant by him and aborted the child. Now, this could be spun--and I admit this is another 'extreme' case--as a pregnancy produced by sexual assault, or rape, and by incest. But since the adult woman was the instigator of the sexual contact and the putative defendant in the criminal proceedings, where do her abortion rights stand?

My point is this: Roe v. Wade established a precedent that effectively gave any woman the right to abort any baby at almost any time, and has since then become enmeshed in activist rhetoric, pro and con. But the decision was based on a terribly twisted constitutional argument that most legal scholars today will admit (some only in private) was simply wrong.

The practical result of Roe v. Wade has been the termination of tens of millions of pregnancies that would otherwise have been carried to term and produced healthy children. Babies who would grow up to become productive members of society, paying into social security, and so forth; but also babies who would grow up in a culture of entitlement, who would become adults who would produce nothing and suck at the government teat their entire lives. It's a two-edges sword.

The majority of those children-who-never-were would have been minority children, according to the statistics, BTW. Urban black women have been the group to utilize abortion on demand most readily, which in part accounts for the stagnation of the birth rate among African-Americans and the emergence of Hispanics as the dominant minority in the American population. There are good and bad sides to this; for instance, it has been argued eloquently by actuarial data that the drop in violent crime we saw in the 90's and into the present decade was in large part due to the reduction in birth rate in urban African-American populations, which in turn was due to the readiness of black women to abort their babies in the 70's and 80's. There's my token tip of the hat to Campfire political uncorrectness.

I don't have an answer to this mess, but I firmly believe that life is sacred. I am pro-life; which means, in my case, that I oppose abortion in the majority of 'on-demand' cases, I oppose euthanasia of the elderly and infirm, and I oppose the death penalty in the majority of cases. I believe this way for religious reasons, yes; but I've also wrestled with tough biomedical ethics issues since graduate school, and I have found rational, humanitarian, and socially-conscious reasons too, and these guide as much as my religious beliefs.

As a nation, we seem to be working toward a balance in the matter of right-to-life vs right-to-death issues for the terminally ill and infirm. We seem to be moving toward--at least in most states--toward a more cautious and judicious use of the death penalty. But we are making zero headway in forging a middle ground on the abortion question. Bottom line, I believe that abortion, like the death penalty, should be reserved for the exceptional cases where no other solution will serve.

I wish I knew how we could work toward this. I have a sense, deep down at bottom, that we will find a middle road that serves the majority better than our current model while allowing for the exceptional cases. But it's going to take some work to get there.

I follow, and I know of several other very young INCEST RAPE girls, from the same county. I can only assume it is more common that most folks would like to admit.

The point being, one can't put out a blanket law on this one. If you don't allow abortion at all (which the Christian right would like) you make criminals out of 10 year old children. That is [bleep] up beyond words.

If you allow it, than it is between the person and God as I can see it. Send God to me to answer for every young girl that had an abortion because the baby was a product of an INCEST RAPE.

If it's God's will I will happily spend FOREVER burning in HELL because an 11 year old aborted something caused from SIN.

Incest involving very young girls and older male relatives is far more common in some places/cultures than others. It's "culturally acceptable" in those places. The babies are raised by the village, and the cycle goes on and on. It's awful.

When I was in residency the Canadian government was turning a blind eye to this practice among Native Canadian populations in the NWT. I did my residency in the tertiary care hospital where most of the NWT's obstetric nightmares go, and believe me, I've seen the worst of the worst cases.

Don't be quick to tar the entire Christian or "religious right" bloc with the same brush. There is a lot more flexibility there (or should I out myself and say 'here'?) than you think. Most of the religious right are kind, gentle, and compassionate people when you get to know them individually. Statistically, it's been shown time and again that they give more of their own money and time to charity and public works than the "liberal left". Most of them, when they sit down with you over a cup of coffee, will allow that there are situations where it's hard to apply a hard and fast rule.

The problem is that the 'religious right' is embattled by Roe v. Wade, which grants what you call a 'blanket law' allowing any woman to abort any pregnancy at virtually any time.

There's the glaring problem. Roe v. Wade was and is bad law, and it did more to create this acrimonious rift in American society than all of the opinions of all of us private citizens put together.

Bro, I don't think you could happily spend forever burning in hell for any point of ideology. Although I have to admit that if my understanding of God was based on what I've seen preached on TV and by some 'born-again' knuckle-draggers, I'd probably side with you. But these folks are no more God's ambassadors than I am. We're all human, and we're all fallible, and our understanding of God only becomes credible as we learn to understand the complexities of the Gospel as they apply in our own lives, down in the nitty-gritty, the places we don't like to look at, let alone talk about. This is where and why I respect Penny and Barak so much... they are putting in their time, investing their lives, in places where most members of the 'Fire wouldn't have the balls to go, let alone do it with love and joy. How can they go there and do that? By the grace of God. There's no human strength that can take you into such places.

I understand your outrage, and believe me, I've been there. But over a lot of years, years spent seeing the dark, putrid underbelly of the human condition in places and ways that most folks here ('cept my buddy Kat and a few other ER/ICU rats) can imagine, God has revealed to me a glimpse of his infinite mercy and compassion, and I know that no matter how badly people might screw something up, it's not too big for God to fix provided one keeps an open heart.

I believe I can state categorically that it was never God's will for that little girl to be raped by her grandfather. It was God's will that mankind be granted free will, and it was by his own wicked free will that that grandfather committed that unspeakable betrayal of family respect and love and trust on that little girl. That exercise of free will on that grandfather's part may earn him an eternal judgment he probably won't like. And God's mercy may grant that little girl, when a woman grown, a life richer and fuller than you or I could reasonably expect.

We just don't know. It's not our job to know, or to mete out judgment by fiat, in hot blood. God knows. My job is only to try to understand what God's will is in specific areas of my life, and as these expectations dawn in my feeble consciousness, to live up to those expectations to the best of my ability, and in the end I'll be accountable for what I've been asked to do and how well I've done it.

I'm willing to spend an eternity in hell for a child.

I also realize that it is a 'broad' stroke of the brush, but much of the paint falls within the lines, unfortunately. I've seen more wrong done in the name of God than by anything else.

Children shouldn't have to wonder if abortions is right or wrong, I'll be damned if I'm going to damn them for a decision.

That's a bold statement, bro!



Well, like I said... outside of a few like Kat, myself, and one or two others here on the 'Fire, you've led a sheltered life. The wrong done in the name of God don't hold a candle to the wrong done out of pure human meanness.



Fortunately, that's not your responsibility!

Nobody's damning that kid, or any kid, or any adult for that matter, for a decision made in a time of crisis that may or may not have been wrong. Only God knows the heart, and only God has the power to commit a soul to damnation.

I believe, based on a harder-than-usual middle-aged life of experience, that God's love and mercy far exceeds anyone's expectations, and transcend the horrors any of us have to endure on this earth.

I'm beat, Scott, and I gotta go to bed. You have to finish off that bottle of amber liquid and pack up all them bullets... (you DID say you were sending them to me for safekeeping, remember? I'll store them in my wine cellar, next to all those nice bottles of champagne the Remy brothers ruined by fermenting it...)... and I've had two brutal days in the ER.

October used to be my favorite month when I got to spend most of it outdoors with a dog or two and a nice comfortable side-by-side, but lately it's become my least favorite... the chit that crawls out of the woodwork leading up to Halloween just seems to get worse every year.

Let's get some sleep and talk about this some more in Wyoming next fall.

I know they don't speak for God, but one only needs slam his penis in a door 500 times before he says ENOUGH!


God can kiss my ass when it comes to children, but I ain't worried because I don't believe he would 'hold' anything against a child, that's what the majority of 'Christians' I have met would do.

Doc, awesome posts. You have very clearly and eloquently said it for me, at least. Thank you.

Penny

Ok, I haven't time to read all the posts. But of course I do have 2 cents to add.

First, I believe in God but, practice no particular religion. I also believe there is no hell.

Now, with that said and the subject at hand.

Absolutely no one has the right to cast the first stone at any female for abortion when the child is conceived out of rape, incest, or any other molicious act.

If there is a follower before us, that is COMPLETELY free of sin, then speak up now, for YOU must be GOD himeself.

If you are not, then please put down the stones. Shame on all of those who judge and call any female A Murderer for abortion when the child is conceived out of any molicious act. It is no ones decision but her's and her reason need not be brought to hand for debate. She and she alone will have to live wih her decision and answer to God when her time comes. But don't worry, she won't go to hell. God loves all of his children, good, evil, black, white, rich, or poor, healthy or ill.
If god feels she has done wrong and punishment is necessary, he will condem her while on earth, not in heaven or in hell for those that believe there is a hell. For when it is our time, each and every person will cast their own judgement upon themselves and beg God for his forgiveness....and each and everyone of us WILL RECEIVE IT because you will have paid for your sin while one earth.

The above mentioned is my belief and my belife alone. No one is expected to agree or disagree.

IT'S MINE, AND IT'S MY DECISION!!! Just as is yours.

Well-stated....And, you are certainly alone in your beliefs.

Wow, you spoke to every human on the face of the planet that fast? IMPRESSIVE.

I clearly stated they weren't your beliefs or any one elses. Don't expect you to agree, especially if you practice a particular religion, the beliefs were set for you and you agreed to conform....and that's YOUR decision.

However, I could be alone, of course, I don't follow any particular religion,as I stated, just my belief in God.

Maybe I just see God in a different light.

and no doubt, God sees YOU in a different light as well.

I find it amazing most abortion apologists attempt to justify life begins at a time other than conception. The very word "conception" defines a beginning. To use terms such as viability, or any other presumed modifier is equally illogical. No life is viable on it's own. Remove simple requirements such as food, water, oxygen or proper fuction of any number of organs such as heart, liver or lungs, and life ceases. People are free to be as wrong as they wish, but irregardless, life obviously begins at conception and since we are discussing the life of a human, human life begins at conception.

The absurdity of the contention of when human life begins would never take place without the polarizing issue of abortion. The pro-choice side attempts to use it to justify the destruction of human life in it's most defenseless state. The pro-life side uses it to point out the reality of the act, and such stark reality is seldom appreciated and often serves only to steel the opposition in their position, irrational though it is.

All that said, abortion is here to stay. Just like pornography, homosexuality, alcohol and drug abuse, and any other destructive practice. That abortion does destroy at least one life cannot be argued rationally and it typically cuts a far wider path of destruction.

For those who chose abortion for any reason, a huge amount of love, not condemnation, is the only thing to lessen the impending impact of that often ill-conceived decision. They will need it, along with the understanding that the Grace of God can and does cover all errors we may fall to in this life.

What? Did you ask God? How do you know this? Did you get a memo? a telelgram, or did he email you?

It appears your response may be based on your beliefs.Is it not? If so, enoguh said. I already addressed that. It would be imoral for me to try and persuade you to believe as I do.

Thank you and the other gentlemen for proving my point and steelhead's. "protect me from your followers". I appreciate it.

I do think you both should put the stone down though, God see's it in your hand. Shame shame.

The textbook definition of "life" is "cells that reproduce and grow." Guess what happens immediately after conception....

Religion has nothing to do with the moral issue of infanticide and the Catholic church does not have a monopoly on the matter. Just drop the religion card. It is irrelevant.

Carry on.

nope, my response was just a shot in the dark. Your silliness and self righteousness was just too blatant to ignore. May God also protect us from women on gun boards.

hey now

The most nauseating thread I have ever read on an internet forum. Period.

I understand we have some diehard atheists and Christians on this board. I really do. But in all honesty can any of you think of a more asinine waste of time than for a bunch of conservative MEN to be contemplating the morality of the decision of a WOMAN who was raped to stop the pregnancy?

You remember the old saying 'change the things I can and accept the things I can't'? Remember the part at the end about the wisdom to tell the difference?

Good God the trolling that goes on around here!

Will

and you Will, have NEVER contributed to that?

Never! :p

But at least we could put the hammers and tongs away until we get a subject that we could actually make a difference in. There is no way, NO WAY, that women will ever peaceably allow men to impose their will on them in this instance. No amount of moralizing and theorizing will make one iota of difference. On top of which a pretty damned big chunk of men like myself would abandon their opposition to abortion when the woman has had the CHOICE of whether to have sex in a manner that could result in pregnancy taken out of her hands.

So this thread is a non-starter. Unless someone just wants to fight on the internet. Maybe they're bored?

Will

Not all Christians damn someone for having an abortion. We don't like it but it's hate the sin not the sinner. We are there for women who VERY often suffer mentally post abortion. My own town has a Pregnancy Resource Center(largely sponsored by the local Baptist Association) where pregnant women can get help with supplies/medical as well as Christian Counseling. It's voluntary and free so yes we can Christian Counsel. One of the biggest things they do is let the expectant mother see the baby on an ultra sound and the vast majority don't get abortions.

The director is a lady who had an abortion, went into a major spiral mentally and finally thru God was able to forgive herself and move on with her life. She then chose to get into a position to help other women not go through the same thing she did and offer alternative solutions.

Mike

The issue does affect men!

The baby being aborted may have been the person who would have cured cancer, President, home run champion, Mother Theresa,Billy Graham, Dale Earnhardt...who knows they aren't given a chance!

Mike

Actually, I think you pulled it right out of your NARROW MINDED ARSE!!!!!!!

Self righteous? I think not. My belief isn't right, nor is wrong. Your's is not right, nor is it wrong.

SO GET OVER IT!!!

Dear God, Protect me from your shallow minded followers.

Whatever happened to the old saying - "Keep Government out of the bedroom!" The Republicans used it regualrly in the 1950's and '60's as a way to keep government at bay.

This is a decision between a woman, her conscience and her doctor.

I was adopted. The abortion issue certainly had the opportunity to affect me.

There is also the problem of inequality; if a man wants the child, but the woman wants an abortion, then the man can do nothing to stop her. However, if the woman wants the child and the man does not, he is on the hook for 18 years, living with the threat of imprisonment if he doesn't pony up the cash.

So I propose this; equality on both sides. If the woman has complete control over the fate of her child while it is still in the womb, then the spem donor should have complete control over whether or not he wishes to be responsible for the child. If he decides not to take responsibility, for whatever reason, and the mother insists on having the child, then she should be the sole responsible party. After all, she participated in the conception as much as he did. Why should the man be the one to live in indentured servitude to the mother?

Gee, thanks, Penny!

If you can think straight enough to post what you did after several grueling days/nights in the emergency room, I want you as my doctor!!!

Penny

Agains't my better judgement I'll comment one more time on this, since it looked more directed towards me than anyone else.

I really could care less what the circumstances of an abortion are when it comes to understanding what it really is.
When one or more people set out to destroy a human life, regardless of the circumstances, it is murder. They aren't defending themselves or family, as in protection or self-defense, they are simply killing another human being.

Whether it be science or religion who's doing the talking, there is no doubt when life begins and it is most certainly at conception.

Having an excuse for the act does not change the act itself. This isn't condeming or condoning, simply stating what is truly taking place. I think it's important for everyone involved to understand at least that part before they take a hard stance on either side of the debate. I also believe until you're a woman or man who has been faced with the choice, and really faced with it, you have a limited grasp on the situation, regardless of your beliefs.

Sarah Palin's decision to keep her baby with down syndrome is a perfect example of someone who truly had the decision to make. From that action alone, she's got more conviction than all the scumbags in DC ever thought about.
The far right would praise her for doing the "right thing", with most of them never having to make that decision themselves and the left are trying to figure out how to condem her, but they just can't.

NO NO, it was not directed at you personally. It was ment for all I stated. I would have quoted you.:)

I applaude Palin for making the choice she did. However, some may not have the means to give a special child the care and nurturing the baby would need. Chances are, no would adopt the baby, so for some one without the means, the baby would be brought up by the state, and probably be miscared for and possibly abused and molested. Hmmm.......which is worse?

I know, if I were in my mother womb, and I had downsyndrom and my mother could ask me,

Shawn, you will be born with an illness,it will take time, money and special care to get you through life. I do not have those means. You would have to hope that some one else would love you, care for you and tend to your every need. It may not happen, so the state may have to take care of you. You will most likely be mistreat, and not cared for properly.

What do you want to do?

I would tell my mother to let me go.

How very warm and fuzzy. However, babies in the womb cannot make those decisions for themselves, they cannot communicate in any fashion that can be understood by us. But you can bet your last granola bar that they want to live. When they are brought out of the womb, no matter what stage of development, every bit of their physiology is working to keep them alive. The fact that they are helpless, have Down's Syndrome, are premature, or just unwanted has no impact on that. That's why it used to be understood that a parent's duty, heck, an adult's duty was to protect the children.

Nowadays, with the coarsening of American culture, children are commodities and conveniences, just like microwave popcorn.

Before I was born my Dad was asked who should live my Mother or me because the doctors did not think they keep us both alive. The doctors really believed that only one of us could live. My Dad said if it comes down to it kill the baby and save my Mom. In other words, I almost became a partial-birth abortion. I never held it against my Dad, I thought it was the right decision and one I would have made if it had been me. Fortunately, I guess for us, both my Mom and I lived.

Abortion is a tough call and only the people directly involved can make the decision. Thought I'd share this for for whatever it's worth.

Seen this crap a hundred times. I am sure you are a nice lady, but if you want to play on a gun forum with the boys, understand that boys are different than girls, think different than girls, and will certainly respond differently than girls.
You seem to be catching up though, as you have shown yourself to be as big an azzz as most of the guys

Hmmm... most people don't want an ER doc for their doctor... we tend to be a little too frank and rough around the edges, 'cause we deal with the nasty stuff that shows up at oh-dark-thirty on a regular basis...

But, since you're such a nice person, OK.

Oh, I don't know, when I worked in an ER, I preferred ER Docs. I mean, there was no BS from them. SURGEONS on the other hand were a bunch of egomaniacal buttheads.

Depends where you work/worked... out where I am , surgeons are a precious resource. They might get cranky from time to time, but that's what goes with being a surgeon. My first choice before med school was surgery, but when I saw what they had to put up with from training on through a lifetime of practice, I said "no thanks".

Not a day goes by I don't wonder if I made the wrong decision, though.

Frank and rough around the edges I can handle. The commute will probably do me in, though...

Penny

Yes, and it appears you are a generous man. Thank you so much for proving my point again. I appreciate it. It was worth showing my azzz.

God bless.

Riverlady1

and evidently you Can't Understand Normal Thought lady.

God bless indeed

LOL......Man, you're like the energizer bunny. You just keep proving my point over and over and over......LOL

Keep going, you're on a roll. LMFAO!!!!

Oh and love that maturity level. You da man!!!!!!

still posting nothing but jokes I see.

Go play over at the woman's sewing circle forum, where you might just understand what is going on. You are clueless here.

I'll give you the last word though, since I am da Man. Now try hard to think of something intelligent for a change.

LMFAO................

I can't even touch this. It's just too perfect.

Such a grand display.

However, I will say...........Thanks again, you are just too generous. LMFAO!!!!!

I missed that. PM please.

It might be the only worthwhile asspect of this exchange.

This thread only reinforces my belief that religion is one of the worst afflictions of the human race.

I also question why we have soldiers fighting the Taliban when we have religious wackos and extremists in our own back yard...

In fact add a turban and a dodgy foreign accent, and you be had pressed to tell some of the religious zealots on here from their Taliban cousins...

Here�s a hint for ya Sherlock. The zealots on the forum here don�t fuggin blow stuff up, stone their women, and freak out over cartoons. Are you really that obtuse?

That's way over the top Pete. I had you figured for a rational guy until now.

Sorry, but I lump all those the religious nut jobs like the Branch Davidian's, The KKK, ol Timmy Boy McVeigh, and the various Catholic clergy convicted of horrific and systematic child abuse right in there with the Taliban...Lets not forget about the likes of the Protestant Shankill Butchers either...

The world would be a better place with out any of them as far as I'm concerned...If their is a God or Allah, and he is omni powerful, but still allows (or perhaps causes?) the horrors of this world to continue, that would be the biggest contradiction and sin of all...

Sorry Ricky,

I just get so very angry when I see extremism under any guise. I know many Christians and a few Muslims who practice their faith privately and quietly, and I have no issue at all with that..The problems seem to start when "religion" becomes "Religion" and its used to exert power and suppress peoples freedoms, which history patently demonstrates it does...

Regards

Peter

How about lumping all anti religion nuts in the same category as Stalin and Pol Pot? I don�t like being preached at by religious or anti religious zealots but I can certainly differentiate between the Branch Davidians and the Taliban. Doesn�t sound to me like you don�t believe in God so much as you�re pissed off at him.

None of us have a problem believing that anti-gun people actually want to eliminate all privately owned firearms. Consider that pro-life people actually want to eliminate all abortions--even if carrying the fetus to term kills the mother.

IMHO, if we allow them to eliminate all abortions, the next step is the elimination of all contraception except the rhythm method.

That has nothing to do with religion or faith as it pertains to Christianity. There is no room in Christianity for exertion of power and suppression of freedom. Sure, perverted people have and always will use religion, military force, politican thought, or whatever serves them to exert their will on others. But that's people and the corruption a lust for power brings. Those heretics truly have hijacked a great Religion.

Islam on the other hand, is fully designed to suppress freedom and demand compliance. Those who practice it quietly are considered apostate to those who adhere to fundamentalism Islam. It is the scourge of civilization.