I have been doing some reading in order to buy my first rifle. But I want to buy so that I can expand my collection without buying rifles that will duplicate each others purpose.

The 3 calibers that make the most sense to me is
.264 Shooting 140grain
.284 Shooting 160grain
.338 Shooting 200/225/250grain as needed

They are all calibers that have a wide variety of bullet weights in factory loaded ammunition.

They have the highest sectional density available in factory loaded ammunition.

After some consideration I think I have narrowed my choices to
1) .264/6.5mm such as 6.5x55 SE, .260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor. in a 22" barrel rifle of about 7 pound.

2) 7mm Rem Mag for the longer work

3) .338 win mag for the really big stuff. (.338RCM if the win mag kicks too hard)

I don't see how that does not cover the whole spectrum of hunting worldwide. For everything other than Elephant, Rhino, Buffalo etc. But I don't plan on hunting that. If I was, I would add a .375 and .458 to the list.

I know you can get heavy for .270 and .308(the whole family) bullets. But then you have to hand load. And even then there are still bullets available with higher sectional densities in the above mentioned three calibers.

So why the massive popularity of .270 and .308(the whole family) calibers?

Oh yes... I have not taken varminting into account. That is another topic on its own I think...

JMHO... but to answer the question of the massive popularity.

They will work on just about any game animal in the US, been around a long time, ammo readily available, etc.

Back when a man could only afford one or two guns, he had to get one that would 'do it all'. The 270, 308, 30-30, 30-06, could and still do 'do it all'.

Just a note... What caliber of gun is credited with the most elephant kills. Answer: .308 Poachers use them, because they are readily available, worldwide.

Elephant poachers use AK-47... so yes I hear your point.

But if I was going to buy only one rifle I would go with the .264

The sectional density of .264 bullet is
160 - .328
140 - .287
130 - .266

Which makes it a very capable caliber. Capable of taking anything in America (though I wouldn't use it on big bears)

Basically you just have to decide what case you want to put behind that bullet.

To get a .287 SD on a .308 bullet yo would have to go to a 220gr bullet...

I read your list over and over but still dont see 30-06 in there anywhere..Ill try again..

seriously though, I think those are interesting choices for a first rifle and that you should get a 30-06

If you want one rifle to cover all the hunting you listed then just get a 30-06.....I know its boring but it will get the job done....been there done that...

Surely we should choose our cartridges without taking into account availability. The choice should surely be made on the merit of the cartridge. That way we can move on to new. Technically superior cartridges.

I am pretty sure that there are a lot of people that have seen that the .264 has lots of potential, but said "Well its not a popular enough round".

If they all went for it, it would become a popular and readily available round...

Same goes for .284. Either .284 or .264 paper looks better than a .270 ... and I am sure that a .284 with a 160gr bullet can do everything that a .308 can do with a 180gr or even 200gr..

Welcome, Andre, YOU post,

"I have been doing some reading in order to buy my first rifle."

...yet are pontificating about "SDs'.

HMMMmmmm.

GTC

And lots of folks today shoot a light-for-caliber bullet, like a TSX or TTSX, that is tough, and they still get good expansion, and penetration.

@crossfireloops

Well here in South Africa getting a rifle is a big deal "Legally". So doing your research is very important.

You have to get a licence for each firearm you own. And for each licence your home has to be inspected. And so does your safe... Its a real hassle... So reading around as much as I can and ended up thinking that the deciding factor when choosing a caliber should be sectional density.

Which is where my post springs from...

In your situation, I would start with one of the 6.5mm cartridges you listed. You might find you don't really need anything else for North America (with the right bullet) unless you go after large bear (grizzly/brown bear) or bison.

In fact, if you get one of the 6.5mm chamberings you are considering, you might very well find out you don't "need" a 7mm for long(er) range. Wouldn't preclude you from adding other rifles, but a 6.5mm might fill all of your needs.

I've thought about the same topic and came to the conclusion that three centerfire rifles would cover everything in North America with the minimum overlap:
1. a .260 Rem or 6.5x55 for everything up to elk (perhaps including elk depending on your comfort level),
2. a .308, .30-06, .338-06, .35 Whelen, or 9.3x62 for anything larger in North America and for plains game in Africa, and
3. a .223 for varmints (might get an AR-15 in 5.56 NATO for a couple purposes).

Edit to add: After I wrote my original post, I saw your post about living in South Africa and the situation there. My advice would be to decide what you would be hunting to start with and match your first rifle to that. I realize adding guns to your collection is difficult there, but you probably want to get a rimfire rifle chambered in .22 LR for practice (it's nice to get one that is somewhat similar to your primary centerfire rifle). I've read that hunting herd animals is a little different in that tracking a blood trail can be more difficult for herd animals (like many African antelopes) than for animals who are solitary or live in small groups (typical of most North American game). In that case, you might consider a .308 Win as a do-everything short of dangerous game.

Yup,...."First rifle" my azz

GTC

Again JMO.... but, what you buy, should be depending on what and where you hunt.

Deer hunting in the plains is a lot different than deer hunting in the forest of the south. Same gun will work either place, but maybe a 30-30 wouldnt be my first choice, for plains hunting. Take a look at my avatar... 30-30 laying on the seat and it is great for hunting where a 100 yd shot is a long one.

Gonna hunt grizzly bear? Antelope? Moose? Elk? Black Bear? If your gonna get just one rifle, make sure you get enough rifle. Better to have a little extra, than not enough.

I just saw where you were in S. Africa, also. I'm not familiar with any of the animals that are hunted over there, so anything I have said, pertains to hunting here in the US.

Andre

I am glad that you posted that you were from South Africa. I think most people have and were going to answer you base on North American hunting. I have no experience on animals in Africa. One thing to keep in mind is what animals you plan on shooting, but I am sure that you have thought about that. What ammo is available where you are at is another important thing. Good luck with what you get.

The other reason that in South Africa one must really do your research is that you are only allowed 4 firearms. Of which no more than one may be for self defense. So if you want a handgun of some sort, that only leaves 3 rifles. And selling a second hand rifle in South Africa is not easy. The law changed a couple of years back resulting in people owning more than 4 firearms being forced to sell some of their firearms. And it is still a ongoing thing. Some people say that they will not give up their firearms... We will see what happens...

"Well here in South Africa" [quote=Andre123]"Surely we should choose our cartridges without taking into account availability."

I am having a difficult time reconciling your statements. A rifle is no good without ammunition and if you really live in RSA you certainly know this. You are BSing us.

308 makes sense, flip a coin a get the 30.06. Section Density is great but I'm concerned about killing game. 30 caliber has a great selection of bullets that let you specialize for the game you want or long range shooting. It is also widely available and is very common at a reasonable price. A 30 caliber hole in something tends to bleed well and die quickly from the animals I have taken with it. I can't ever see myself without one.

Well, I did not KNOW you were talking about S. Africa, and was going on the 'everything but the big bears' theme, it sounded like a N. American's post.

Compliments on the studious approach, and best of luck in getting well armed, and KEEPING them.

Don't neglect (or be shy of) the opportunity to run your questions and questings past our very own Campfire Treasure, Ken Howell,....He WILL help you out.

GTC

GTC

Well if from s.a. i guess your post makes a little more sense..kind of..?

You probably should have stated that before you questioned the 270 and 308 tho.

Folks here are probably still recovering..

@RinB

I just mean that I think there are a couple of potentially good cartridges that would do very well if people would just take a leap and buy them.

That said. all the mentioned calibers are available here...

The caliber I am leaning towards though is the 6.5x55 SE. rather than the 6.5Creedmoor or the .260Rem

Here is another question...

How important is diameter of a bullet? I have been focusing all my attention on sectional density up to now...

I am planning to hunt Antelope ranging from
Springbok 50-100 pound (what i will be hunting most often)
Gemsbok 400-550 pound (Occasionally)
Eland. up to 2000 but typically 1200 pound (Very occasionally)

Would at some stage like to hunt lion. Maybe just once(its expensive).

With that range of animals on the menu and the fact you will be hunting herd animals, my first choice would be a .308 Win based on what I've read (no experience in Africa) and my experience with a .30-06.

... and yes. This is my first rifle.

I have been hunting with other people though. And have family that own firearms and enjoy chatting about it...

They are .270 and 30-06 shooters. And yes it gets the job done(that said they don't hunt the largest species... not saying they cant, just that they don't. I am sure a 30-06 can get the job done on any African antelope). Just my nature to check out all my options. And the .264 calibres sure look good on paper and i think will do really well on springbok. I could get a .243 for springbok. but the .264 will give me more options

And the .338 will surely do well on the very large antelope like eland and Kudu.

And the .284 will do well on Gemsbok and wildebeest.

that way I still have a .338 if I was ever wanted to hunt lion.

Sure no perfect answer, but I like your ideas - with one minor mod on the bottom end. With the other two as "given", I would go 25 instead of .264 - not a big deal, but more flexible (85 gr to 125 gr) at the bottom. Hope you get 'em all and shoot 'em a lot.

@ramblin Razorback

Just wondering why you say a .308win would be better if you are hunting herd animals?

JJHack, a Professional Hunter who spends the safari season in South Africa and who also hunts in North America, has written a number of times on the Africa forum here at the Campfire that based on several years of experience with hundreds of animals that a .30-caliber is the minimum diameter bullet he recommends due to the difficulty of tracking a blood trail when dozens of hooves are creating a dust cloud and concealing which set of tracks belong to the animal that had been shot. His explanation is based on much practical experience and makes sense to me. He recommends a .30-06 as the minimum cartridge, but I suspect a .308 Win would work very similarly at "normal" (300 or 400 meter maximum ranges), and the .308 Win would recoil less, everything besides cartridge being equal. On the other hand, a lot of people have had success hunting plains game with a 7x57, so different people have different opinions on what should be a minimum. If I am ever able to go on safari in Africa, I'm planning to take a .308 or a .30-06.

CCCC,

Speer makes a 90 gr .264" bullet. I'm not sure that 5 grains less gets you a lot more flexibility, particularly when .264" bullets are available with much better ballistic coefficients and much better sectional densities than the range of .257" bullets that are available. The .25-caliber rounds are nostalgic for a lot of Americans, but for medium to large game, the 6.5mm cartridges equal, and in some situations exceed, their .25-caliber counterparts.

What ammunition is readily available to purchase? That would be my primary angle to consider. As for which cartridge will get the job done on 100-500# animals, anything between a 243 and a 35 Whelen based off of a 8x57, 30-06, or 308 Parent cartridge. Use a Partition, Accubond or something with a good reputation like that.

Just noticed the Eland part of the list. Move my bottom up to at least a 6.5 but I'd go with a 30 caliber. Again I'd look at what ammunition is availably. 30-06 or 9.3 might be the answer as close as your local supplier's shelf.

Exceed? Maybe yes. But, under what specific conditions and at what other cost. I was referring to the normalities.

No argument what you say about availability, but nostalgia has nothing to do with it for me. It has to do with flexibility, and experience. Your position seems dependent on variables not controlled in the factory rifles bought by most.

For example - you can purchase a 90 grain bullet in .264, but have you actually tried that weight/length in a .264 barrel set up for 140 grain and/or 160 grain bullets - and compared that performance (stability/accuracy) to how a 90 or 85 grain works in the usual .25 bore? Try it !! Availability of bullet weights is one factor - design of barrel and related dia./length issues are another. As I said - no perfect answer - but I go with the ballistic favorabilities.

The latest whizz bang rifle for the most ultra modern cartridge is only good for a club without ammo.

That is why so many people choose rifles in the readily available cartridges.

Your caliber choices sound to me like you read a lot....People pick a 270 or a 30/06 frequently because they come in commonly available,good quality,affordable rifles,ammo is available everywhere,and kill about anything.Both are "proven" international cartridges.They also recoil moderately enough tha many people can shoot them well.

Sectional density is a nice number to think about but bullet construction is more important than a paper number.

Lots of very good hunting bullets are made in 270 and 30/06.The 6.5's and 7mm's are good too,and among rifle nuts they offer some advantages at very long range, but not very many under more ordinary hunting conditions.Even then you don't want to be standing in front of a 30/06 or 270 at 600 yards....they will both kill you dead....

A 30/06 is (should be)the center piece in any collection of BG rifles.It's a great place to start(and stop,for some).With lighter bullets it's much like the smaller calibers like a 270 or 280,etc., but its 200-220 gr bullets set it apart from the smaller stuff.Frontal area is a factor(more important I think than theoretical SD numbers),and a 30 caliber has more than the smaller calibers.

Never been but if I lived in SA,hunted, and were limited in the number of rifles I could own,a 30/06 is where I would start.I'd pick a 375H&H over a 338 any day of the week.

So,
Whats better, a .270 or a 30-06?

Good that you're thinking ahead. This is what I did, starting from scratch:

My own first choice was the 6.5X55, but a deal turned up on a .260Rem (I figured that was close enough) for 120-140gr. Then I added a .30-06, for 165-220gr. These two choices, light and heavy, were made to handle any big game hunting situation I'm likely to place myself in, using ammo that is readily available to me, online. Incidentally, I have also added a .30-30 lever gun.

Thanks RobinNH

If firing 220 grainers out of a 30-06 I will effectively not have real need for a 338. And don't need a 375 as i wont be hunting anything that big. Which means that I have effectively limited myself to a max or a 220grain .308 bullet.

My reasoning is that with only three rifles I must try to eliminate overlapping wrt intended use. if there is a 338 in the collection and i consider a 250grain bullet my max wrt bulet weight, I can also load 185 of 200 grain to do the job of the 30-06.

Having the next smaller caliber in my collection be a 7mm I have something that can cover what a .270 will do and a .30 cal will do. I think the jump from .284 to .338 is such there is not a gap in between that cannot be filled by either a 160 grain .284 or a 200/185 grain 338. Add to that the fact that a 284 with 140 grain bullet will largely eliminate the need for a .270

Now the .284 I would probably go for a 7mm rem mag. So I will have something that can reach out there. The 338 in a win mag, with bigger kick for the occasional big antelope like kudu or eland.

That leaves space for one more. The one I will use most often. That being on the smaller antelope. The 7mm mag will be heavy gun. The 338 will be a heavy gun. So I want something lite and handy. So that leaves .24 .25 and .26. Of those the .25 (in 25-06) would need a 24" barrel to be sensible. So would the .243 . And besides the .243 is a bit light to be a handy, small antelope, walkabout rifle.

Which led me to .264 (in .260Rem, 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5x55) , and since it is not a magnum cartridge it will not be overlapping with the the intended use of the 7mm rem mag.

So that leaves me shooting
95gr to 140gr .264
140gr to 175gr .284
180gr to 250gr .338

Thats how I figure it covers the spectrum

Just found this site... Look under species. They have recommended calibers
http://www.sahunting.co.za

While I think that this will work for SA I think It would also cover every american situation...

Please feel free to tell me where I am missing the something. that afterall is why I post this. Feel free to criticize.

So I am thinking Sako Stainless Laminated Hunter in 6.5x55 SE

Think that the 6.5x55 SE is a bit more versatile than the other two because you can seat longer bullets in the longer action and the case has a longer neck, making it better suited to longer bullets.

All three 6.5x55, .260 and 6.5Creedmoor have almost identical powder capacity.

And the Sako wieghs 7.5 pounds... Hmmm maybe a bit heavy for its use. (As it should come in at just over 8pounds scoped)
But looks a nice rifle...
I think I am looking for something in the 6.5pound range...

Maybe a Sauer 202 Classic?
http://jpsauer.us/firearms/products/model-sauer-202/

Hey Andre, get whatever you want and shoot stuff. The animals don't care and they don't get real technical about it either. Do you want to hunt or crunch a bunch of meaningless numbers on each shot? I really don't think it's either one. You're just fishing around. You're not taking any of the advice except to use it to further what you are already "Thinking" about. I did notice that even though you are taking the time to address other posters, the part in RinB's post about you "BSing" us was not properly refuted and was kinda glossed over. I'll stop and won't go over the other contradictions in your posts.

Normally, Trolling posts don't interest me much, but every once in a while there's one that looks like it might provide a minute or two of fun. We'll see!

Alan

If I am contradicting myself it is because I dont know enough. I have not decided on calibers. Just trying to explain how I see it at the moment. Exactly as my father-in -law also said to me... Lotsa people use a .270 and have no need to try something else. I think what I will do is go to gunshop. If there is a 6.5mm that draws my attention, I might well buy it. If there is a .270 that looks good I might well go for it instead.

The reason i am being so "cant think of a word"... is that as I said before. you can only own 3 guns for hunting in SA(assuming that your 4th is for self defense). Also guns in SA cost almost 3 times what they cost in america. And on top of that selling a gun in SA is really difficult. And second hand guns fetch very poor prices. So a poor choice in a rifle could turn out to be very costly...

Please point out how I am contradicting myself. Would like to understand...

"So why the massive popularity of .270 and .308(the whole family) calibers?"

The popularity of the .308 caliber is due to the fact that:
1) the US adopted this caliber in 1894 ((30-40 Krag), in 1903 (30-03), 1906 (30-06) and, 1954 (7.62X51mm NATO). Each have proven excellent for military and hunting use.
2) the US has been involved in numerous international conflicts over the past 120 years with .308 caliber cartridges and that familiarity has rubbed off on others.
3) hunting in the US is widely accepted and popular with a large variety of game animals; the 30 calibers are well suited for this activity.
4) US hunters have widely hunted around the world and frequently take their 30 caliber rifles with them; the caliber has been accepted by many around the world.

The 270 caliber is popular since it is flat shooting and ideal for mountain and light game hunting hunting where shots can be taken at long range. Also, Jack O'Connor popularized this cartridge in his Outdoor Life columns and it was picked up by many.

Sorry Andre, I took the bait but I've thrown the hook.

Alan

From this I assume that you won't be hand loading. I have no idea what calibers are popular in South Africa, but the ones you choose aren't highly popular in the US and ammo can be hard to find in smaller stores. The .270 and .308 calibers are and ammo is readily available anywhere. The prices on popular calibers are lower, too, because their sales volumes are much higher.

For a 1st rifle, don't worry so much about the physics of ballistics. The popular calibers are popular for a reason - they've been found to work. Millions of hunters worldwide have no idea what sectional density or ballistic coefficients are yet they're highly effective hunters. They carry calibers that are popular and with readily available ammo and they take lots of game with them.

You're right if you want a varmint rifle that also works for small to medium "big game." I'll admit, I don't know about the opportunities to shoot really small varmints (prairie dog and ground hog size) in South Africa. The varmint hunting I've read about occurring in Africa has been larger varmints, and I suspect whatever centerfire one had would work fine for the varmint hunting in South Africa.

If this is a first rifle, then one of the major considerations will be the availability of ammo. You NEED TO PRACTICE LOTS!!! So buy a rifle that fits you, fits the game you will be shooting and one in a chambering which has a ready supply of reasonably priced ammo. The best rifle in the "ultimate do everything" chambering is worthless unless you can keep the pig fed.

Sectional densities, ballistic coefficients, and bullet weights are all fun diversions, but if you are not reloading, then AVAILABLE FACTORY AMMO is a key to becoming an effective shooter.

Well said, RC!

Andre, I can appreciate your conundrum, what with the legislative restrictions on firearms in SA. You've done the basic "theoretical" research and I really can't argue with that... a number of years ago I was searching for the "right" caliber for my youngest daughter's first centerfire rifle, and came up with the same conclusion, i.e., that a 6.5mm rifle would be an ideal starter caliber. As it happens, though, she ended up adopting one of my .308's and has never looked back. She's not interested in theoretical advantages, she just puts bullets where they need to go and game on the hoof becomes meat in the freezer.

Nonetheless I think you'd not be hard done by if you followed RC's advice (and that of many others here) and buy a popular caliber in the .30 caliber range. You can find .30-06 ammo almost anywhere in the world (and .308 ammo even more easily) and with it you can take any game you care to, barring the big stuff with really large teeth, and in a pinch, you could probably take those as well.

Now, speaking to your choices from my personal experience actually shooting the calibers you've named... Personally, I think the .338 caliber could be an ideal first and only rifle, if you can shoot it well. Most people buy a .338 Win Mag and discover that its recoil is very nasty, and as a result they can't shoot it worth a damn. I've seen a lot of people miss a lot of game with that caliber. I would never recommend a .338 Mag as a first hunting rifle. A .338-06 might serve, but I suspect ammunition will be hard to find in SA unless you can handload.

I have a .338 Mag and it's a lovely shooter, but I don't enjoy shooting it. I can shoot it reasonably well but I had a lot of experience shooting and hunting with game rifles before I "graduated" to a .338. On the other hand, I have a 6.5x55 Swede that I can shoot for scores of rounds in a single session quite happily (my son's first centerfire rifle was a sporterized 6.5x55mm Swede, and on his first range session at 12 years old he put almost 80 rounds through it, and would have shot more if I'd had any more ammunition for him to put downrange!).

You have dismissed the .375 caliber, which I think is a rookie mistake, if you'll forgive me saying so. If I could only have one rifle of .30 caliber or higher, I'd take a .375. My .375's (H&H and Ruger) are milder recoiling than a .338 Win Mag, and they put animals down with real authority. Given your country's firearms restrictions, I'd look at a .26 or .28 caliber as your light rifle, a .375 as your heavy, and then find a fine 12gauge double shotgun and a 9mm pistol to round out my 4-gun arsenal. But that's just me.

It's exciting to contemplate purchasing your first car/bike/rifle. Have fun with it and let us know what you end up with. Better yet, post pics of your successful hunts on the appropriate forums when the time comes.

Well, what if you are out in the boonies hunting. Then somehow you loose your ammo. All your hunting buddies have 30-06's, 308's and such. You can't borrow their ammo. Also, the professional hunters recommend 30-06 as minimum with 375 HH as large. Covers everything. Leaves good blood trails. Ammo is everywhere, even in remote store shelves.

Andre I think you got it dead right on all counts. I have a 270 and a 260 among others and if I started over with intent of (crossing myself three times and spitting twice before saying it) a single rifle - I would get a 260 and be done. I will say that 150 grain 270 rounds don't seem to be that hard to find these days - and as others probably pointed out- monometal bullets kind of negate some of the need for high SD.

Those Sauer are magnificent, just gorgeous dream rifle. If they are SO pricey and it might be a long while before you could afford another a 6.5 of some type is a great choice -especially if you can reload as there are tons of bullet weights available which means you can cover s broad spectrum of targets. Don't discount the CZ 550 as a possbility. That is what I got my Dad in 6.5x55- he never looks at his 7 mag any more.

A best trio of guns has been discussed plenty. A 22 hornet, 260rem and 338 of some flavor might cover things pretty well here- though not what I might pick and if brought up again there would be twenty pages of posts po'd I didn't include a 223...or a 30-06...or a 308

For your first- get a 6.5 learn it inside and out, and load for it if you can. It won't beat you up and will give you the chance to start on smaller game and work up with confidence and without a flinch. Whatever you ...for GOD's sake - don't ask what scope for it here! lol

What a bunch of red-tape BS... Funny a colostomy's not part of it..

I guess I'd be considering what ammo I can find where you live on a consistent daily basis and making my move from there. Many rounds will do one just fine, so I'd worry less about that than what rounds I can find. Unless you're a reloader but I would imagine that'd not work out real well considering where you live.

So, what rounds can you actually walk in and buy on any given day? I'd spect that some of the rounds on your list would be very tough to find. And some of them are very tough to find here in the States...

Where do you really live?

Dober

check your math, Andre. a 200 gr .308 bullet has a SD of .301 while the 220 gr is around .33. closer to your math is a 180 gr bullet.

they are popular because they have worked in the past and continue to work today. a 150gr partition out of a 270 win has and will continue to take everything north america has to offer. same is true for the 308 and 30-06 shooting a quality 150, 165, or 180 gr bullet. sd and bc meant something in years past, but with today's bullets, neither is worth a second thought if you are shooting at reasonable ranges.

270/308 might be boring, and old, but there is no doubt they work, and work well.

good luck with what ever you select.

Get a quarterbore, they will do everything you need in North America except Big Bears. prairie dogs love the 75 gr vmax's and elk dig the 115 grain tsx out of my 25-06. 27's and 30's are just fads!

When I was 16 (in 1974) I saved up enough to buy my first rifle and was torn between all the different chamberings. One of my high school teachers and football coaches was an avid hunter and I stopped by his house to seek his advice one day after school.

He took me to a storage building behind his house, opened a foot locker full of military surplus 30-06 ammo still on machine gun belts. He pulled off about 15' worth of ammo and gave it to me. I bought a 30-06 rifle the next day.

I understand today better than in 1974 that there is very little difference between any of the common rounds. I've pretty much stuck with 30-06, but have come to appreciate 308 in smaller packages (Kimber) in recent years. I think my reasoning was pretty valid back in 1974.

Very good post.

When i read these type of articles i often think back to the early 70's when i posed this question to a guy by the name of David Wolfe, and another by the name of neal knox. I only had money at the time to buy one rifle, what should it be. The answer was the 30.06. The reason behind it, understanding they were publishing handloader magazine of course, was it had the most variety of bullets from light to heavy, and while not perhaps the BEST round for specific situations, it was capable of doing it all with the right bullets. I went out and bought a remington BDL left hander, and although many other rifles have followed, that's the rifle that has started a couple of grandson's on the road to perdition.

Familiarity.

Gunner

Works just as good up close! Doesn't kick excessively, I can't think of a reason to switch to something else up close. A good 160 bullet and your ready and able.

223AI. thank us later.

Roger,

I would have to amend that for my three-gun list;

1. .223AI - 1:8" Twist

2. .30-06 - 1:10" Twist

3. .375 H&H OR .338WM, depending on recoil sensitivity.

JHMO

Ed

If you wish to economize just get a 264 Win Mag. It will do everything a lessor 6.5 will do and go as long or longer than a 7mm Remmy. Later, when recoil becomes an issue you can pick up a 6.5x55 and wonder why you never just started there in the first place.

For a heavy rifle, wait until the need arises.

But if the rifle-looney bug bites, just hope you're not married.

I'm with the majority here. There's a darn good reason most have suggested the 30-06. It just plain works. I have no idea of how many total years combined experience in hunting and shooting there is in this site but it has to be a couple thousand years at least. Your family and friends you say use the 30-06. I wonder why?
The late great Townsend Whelen once said, "The 30-06 is never a mistake." Pretty much says it all.
Ammo availability is very important, especially out in the bush.
If you can find a copy of the book, "One Man, One Rifle, One Land", by Y.O. Jones, it's about a man who decided to hunt all species of North American game. He used one rifle, a Remington 700 BDL and two custom handloads. One used the 165 gr. Nosler partition and the other the 180 gr. Nosler partition and he took game from Antelope to the great bears with that one rifle.
I do wish he's given more details on the loads and more details on how they worked on game but nonetheless, that what he used with great success.
The late great Jack O'Connor was once asked what he would choose if restricted to one rifle to hunt the United States. he was said to have answered without hesitation, "The 30-06." Yup the 30-06 and not his beloved .270. There aren't too many peple with the hunting and game shooting experience of O'Connor so if he said, "30-06." I'd be sure to listen.
You can get whatever you want to use but remember what Whelen said. "The 30-06 is never a mistake."
Paul B.
Frankly, I dunno how I would approach only having four firearms. Probably with great anger.

On thing to consider... just because... what do you find when you fly into a remote strip in the wilderness???

Beyond that I"m thankful we have choices. It gives me things like 257 wtby, 7x300wtby, 32-20,30-30,308 etc.... IE I can have fun with what I want to for my reasons and could give a flip less about others thoughts.

That being said if you handed me a 30-06 and I had to make do with it for the rest of my life, no problem(though I'd rather have the little brother to it)

Thanks for all the responses guys.

As for availability of ammo. You can get all the popular American and Popular European Cartridges here. There are many hand loaders here and also many shooting factory ammo. Here is a link for the gun shop just down the road from me.
http://www.safariandoutdoor.co.za/category/bullets_or_koels
So availability is not an issue.
They do not have their factory ammo on their site, but they have a good selection

Varmint hunting in largely consists of fox hunting...

RickyD: I will wait until the need arrises to get a heavier rifle. But to get a licence in south africa can take up to 2 years in some cases. So if a trip I want to go on arises... the trip I wanted to go on may have come and gone before getting the rifle.

I think If I was to get a 30cal (in 30-06) it would have to be in the place of the 7mm rem mag. and then the next caliber up that would make sense would be the 9.3mm instead of the .338?

Is a .375 not overkill on antelope?

I think those would be great solutions.

Ed

Overkill is subjective... is anything on deer size more than a 22lr overkill. That being said with the right bullet a 375 and antelope wouldn't bother me at all.

IF I was to have to live somewhere it was hard to buy numbers of guns or such, I"d have to limit. But at that point I'd still try to limit to really common of wherever I MAY hunt in the future.

For me that leaves Africa out because I have no desire, but I"d have to consider Canada, Mexico, and a few other countries that might interest me, and then consider hard what rural US areas including AK that I may hunt again.

Though I typically carry plenty of handloads, if I were limited on guns and possibily limited on carrying reloads, then you have to lean more mainstream IMHO.

DOesn't say your choices are wrong or right though.

And many of us simply choose because its what we want or it performs the way we want. Me, I want 2 holes, and not much meat damage, others prefer bang flops, large holes etc... to each their own.

Wherever you hunt you'll want a backup rifle. So you might as well choose a likely pair, heavy and light, and set yourself up for any contingency, now.

There are "natural" pairs, like .30-06 and .375H&H (for example, only), whose trajectories are well matched. Then there is the most important consideration: that the pair provide you w/ a battery adequate for the game you'll seek. If you later decide to add to your first pair, you'll have a better idea for something specific.

A 200 grain .308 has an SD of .301. Fed has a .30-06 200 grain spitzer load that starts at 2550 fps. A 220 .308 has an SD of .331.

Expat

"my bad" with the sd... must have been tired. had the numbers in front of me...

I only read about half the posts.

Go find a rifle you like in any of the medium cartidges mentioned, and go kill stuff. If a decent bullet goes into the boiler room, the animal goes down.

Haven't seen a recommendation for a .223 AI though, which I find odd on this forum.

Truth be known, a 30-06 and a 22-250 would do just about anything I can foresee doing. But that would be no fun.

I have seen 2 posts here now that mention 223AI... Why choose a 223AI in any situation is you could choose a 22-250?

In the .22 range only a 223 and 22-250 seems to make sense to me... But I will have very little use for such a cartridge...

Assuming you can readily buy .22 LR ammo there and that the price spread between .22 LR ammo and centerfire ammo is similar to what it is in the States, a .22 LR rifle would probably be a better option in a four-gun collection than a .223 unless you specifically need a .223 for something (which you say you don't) or money is no object for ammunition. On the other hand, an AR-15 in 5.56 NATO/.223 for self-defense might be a consideration if you can purchase an AR-15 there.

Interesting choices, and a good question. If I were picking 7mm Mag vs 30-06 for general hunting, I'd pick the 30-06 any day. 30-06 ammo is available in a wider range of bullet sizes/weights than 7mm, and if you handload, the choices are truly staggering (I have bullets in .308 caliber from 100 gr to 240 gr, and there offerings available both lighter and heavier if you desire), allowing you to literally "do it all" with one rifle. In my experience, the 7mm Mag is a hard-kicking caliber, but that is highly subjective.

As for the .375 vs .338, I have rifles in both calibers and have to say that if I had to choose, I'd pick a 375 any day. Recoil in the 375 is very manageable, but every 338 Win Mag I've fired kicked the bejabbers out of me. I have my 338 for two reasons, the first being that a very great friend of mine built it, and the second being that it gives me a rifle I can use for long-range hunting.

As for the 375 being too much for antelope, I would disagree. Is it more than you need to kill small antelope? Absolutely. But so are most if not all the medium-bores. And while a heavy rifle will serve to harvest a small animal for camp meat, a light rifle will not serve if you have the shot of a lifetime at a trophy North American elk or African Eland. You can always handload a 375 with lighter bullets (even your own cast bullets) if you want to lighten it up.

Just my opinion.

wrt the ar-15... That would definately be my second choice for a self defence gun (after a 9mm pistol like the sig 226 x-Five)

But semi-automatic firearms (other than pistols) are not allowed in South Africa.

just get a .300 win mag or wsm and be done with it.

OK I hear that some people say that the 338 Win Mag kicks harder than the 375H&H..

The 338 Win mag has 86 grain H2O capacity. Typically slinging 200-250 grainers

The 375H&H has 95 grain H2O capacity. Typically slinging 250 - 300 grainers

How then does the 338Win Mag have more kick? Am I missing Something?

The .338 is normally chambered in sporter-weight rifles whereas the .375 H&H is generally chambered in rifles with heavier, "African-contour" barrels. Thus, the perceived recoil of the .375 may be less. I've owned rifles chambered for both calibers and didn't feel much difference when shooting them.

. . . . . . . . and nothing spells D-E-A-T-H in the traditional way any better than a well fed 30-06.

+1

Why a .223AI over a .22-250?
For me cheaper if not free brass of arguably better quality, and I had an already trued up .378 faced action.

You will only be hunting a for days out of the year. So think about range fun and hunting.

A semi-automatic DPMS 338 federal, bullets from 160gr to 225gr.

A semi-automatic Noreen Bad News 300 win mag. I bet they worth the money!

Not allowed to have semi automatics in south africa. Even getting a pump action is really difficult to get licence for. You have to prove you need it in order to get a licence for it.

The .308 caliber rules.

The answer to your posed question is so simple really

Buy one of each, cause history has shown that they all work just fine.

Ok. I went down to the gun shop to ask what calibers are there best sellers. The answer I receives was. All Popular American and Popular European.. So that is the
.204 Ruger
.223
.22-250
.243
.25-06
6.5x55
.260
.270
7mm-08
7x64
7mm Rem Mag
308
30-06
300 Win Mag
Some 8mm calibres that I cant remember now.
338 Win Mag
9.3x62
375 H&H
375 Ruger becoming popular

After reading all the responces here and chatting to guy at gun shop I have decided my 1st rifle to be

30-06
or
7x64

The guy at the gun shop says that the difference in terminal performance of the 7x64 compared to the 30-06 is very marginal and both are very popular cartridges.

So I am going to look out for a nice rifle in either one of those two, And buy whichever pops up first.

Second Rifle will then be a .223 or 6.5x55... But still decideing on that

And 3rd a 12 gauge shotgun or .375 (Ruger or H&H)

Then I have one spot open for a 9mm Pistol.

Thanks for all the Feedback buys

I gotta ask.........Why a 12 GA or a .375 magnum ?

Well I figure if I have a 30-06 or 7x64 and a smaller 223/243/260 cal... I can hunt pretty much everything I want. So I am not sure that I need something bigger like 338/375

So unless something comes up that would result me needing a .375... I would get a 12 GA... Then I can go hunt some Egyptian Geese... But the bigger gun will only be in a couple of years. So lots of time to decide. Some guys say that the 375 works nicely on kudu/eland/Zebra...

But Why?

Because I said that a 243, 7mm and 375 covers all my needs?

A few outfitter sites reccomend 9.3x62 and .375 H&H for
Black Wildebeest
Eland
Kudu
Roan
Sable
Zebra

Short of these big species, a 30-06, 7x64 and .270 will suffice. (I am however leaning toward one of 7x64 or 30-06)
Many outfitters say that the absolute minimum for an eland is .338 Win Mag

Since I am not sure if I will be hunting these species, Instead of a .375 then, I could get a 12GA to go birding with.

For shorter distances (tyically less than 100m in bushveld)on small antelope a .223, .243 and .260 would all work well.

How is this a stupid summation?

http://www.africanskyhunting.co.za/trophies/livingstoneeland-hunting.html
http://www.sahunting.co.za/species/eland/

I take it you are in Africa ? If so,it makes a lot more sense....

Andre,I'll give you some truly "EXPERT" advice.Are you ready?Well,here it is...Get yourself a .243,a 7mm,and a .375.Problem solved.

I did not read all of this but it sounds like a 22 LR, 7X57 Mauser and 375 H&H situation to me.