My son was doing some research for a paper he is doing on his college courses...

It had to do with safe communities....one of his on line sources is www.neighborhoodscout.com

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/

So since dope has been legalized and I am told by campfire "experts" in the subject, that
it is a victimless crime....and they have to be correct...knowing more than the rest of us...

This source has to be wrong....

The largest amount of "legalized" grows in Oregon is Jackson County... Medford... with 3500 legalized grows

the Second largest is Josephine County... Grants Pass.. with 3000 plus legalized grows...

Well According to "Neigborhood Scout"...

Grants Pass, ranked 4% safer than other American Cities....on the same level as Detroit...
which compares with some cities in the Middle East....same rating as say Ferguson MO...

East St Louis is at an index of 3.....

Then let's look at Medford OR....their crime index was only 2%.. with 98% of the cities in the USA
listed as safer....

Compare that to oh say Compton...their crime index is 15.. so 85% of American cities are listed as safer....

East LA is indexed at 19, so 81 % of US communities are safer...


The crime level was pretty darn low when my family moved here... especially Medford...

But this has skyrocketed since the legalization of Dope...

But then once again, we need to keep repeating to ourselves here...

ITS A VICTIMLESS CRIME... soon we'll delude ourselves into thinking that,
just like the active dope smokers convinced themselves of decades ago...

well at least for right now, we are safer than the District of Columbia and Baltimore...

Most other towns with low scores happen to have a large Afro Crowd...something we don't have..

ours are just gangs, Mexicans and Trailer Park Trash...

Dope franchises. Sounds good to me

Just ask any cop or anyone else connected to law enforcement, or the judicial system......who will speak the truth.....and they will tell you that drugs, and that includes marijuana, are the reason that the biggest percentage of crimes are committed. Now, I know that those who believe that it is harmless for a person to smoke a joint now and then, and get all fuzzy feeling, will tell you that it's harmless......but those people who do that are merely a drop in the bucket when compared to those who are habitual drug users, and will do whatever they deem necessary to obtain their supply of drugs.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if we adopted really strict drug laws....bullet in the head type justice...for mere possession....same justice for doctors who allow their patients to become addicted...while we're at it, let's outlaw alcohol and tobacco because I have no doubt those two are responsible for more deaths than all other drugs combined.......I mean...we all wanna be safe right??? We want the govt. to protect us right???

May sound cruel to you, but it would definitely solve one hell of a lot of society's problems.

One good thing about Oregon's pot legalization...a lot of druggies have left Idaho & moved to Oregon.

Add my name to the list of drug haters.

Middlefork, I have little sympathy for the addict and absolutely none for the dealer. But you have to ask yourself why are so many people doing drugs in the first place?
Does incarcerating people arrested for possession really help the problem or just pack the jails? How do we as a society teach people they CAN take control of their circumstances? Alternatively, how does a society teach people their actions DO carry consequences?

I think the combination of personal responsibility and the risk of dire consequences hold the key.

Heck, I'm just the veterinarian, not a sociologist.

You think all that pot they grow stays in Oregon? The War on Drugs has made pot very valuable. If pot was actually legal everywhere like it was once was there would be no pot dealers or farmers, they wouldn't be necessary. Maybe the Mexican cartels will wipe out the competition in Oregon for you.

Good news is there a quite a few countries that practice just that sort of justice. They are all heavily religious as well.

Great places.

Blaming drugs is akin to blaming guns. It's stupid.

The problem ain't weed, it's not alcohol, it's not Obama, nor is it muslims. It's your neighbors. Get rid of weed (never happen), and you're still stuck with your neighbors.

You seem to be suggesting that addiction or even consumption of mind altering drugs has no effect on folks behavior. Do you have any evidence to support that assertion? I think many on this thread are very skeptical, me included.

i think the point being made is that people that over indulge in drugs, alcohol, etc. can cause endless problems. was it the drugs or the people that abused the drugs?

similarly, guns don't kill people. people kill people. but, it's a hard sell to get people to accept the reality of these truths. city people tend to believe that guns kill people. and then they'll point to the gun in the killer's hand as living proof of their contention. so, the story goes on.

It all affects behavior. The consumption of ANYTHING will alter your internal chemistry and your brain chemistry. Those are facts. That people choose to demonize one set of substances, but refuse to address others, tells me they have not bothered to reason out what the causes are for behaviors at all. They just want to blame and ban something, just like the left does. Does it ever work? NO. And it leads to mass-murder and genocide every single fuucking time. Learn how to think. Weed doesn't commit crimes. People do. Why? That's what you want to know. And it seems like you want to blame a group of substances for altering behavior, but that isn't how the foundations of this society were built. They were built on personal freedom and personal responsibility, neither of which have anything to do with law, or substances of any sort.

Oregon... the state of victimhood.

Had a neighbor pass away last year, he was 53. He'd smoked pot since he was kid. Typical example of a drug fried brain. Couldn't say a complete sentence without a "duh" and a "uh" in it. He had medical problems and the doctor told him......no drugs or alcohol with your medicine. Didn't listen. Family tells everybody he had a "reaction" to his meds. Yeah, he reacted alright.....by not paying attention to what the doctor told him, and it cost him his life.

That describes a lot of the drug users. Many of them are simply so far out there, that they are either unable, or unwilling, to comprehend that what they are doing is dangerous to themselves, not to mention others.

You need a new by line Trav...

Like BotHell.. the city for fat lazy, head up their ass, techno geeks...

Sure you toke up regularly....

Nay.





Clark

Ain't we been here before? Is there a link between higher populations that came to use the legal drugs, and crime?? Probably, but there is also an increase in crime in any boom town. When they bult Hoover dam the town didn't allow alcohol, for a reason. What about correlating crime and the availability of good jobs, affordable rent, women and other variables.

People keep lumping pot in with heroin, meth, and other dangerous drugs. I still see the biggest problem to be abuse of alcohol. While I don't like tobacco, I can't say I have seen any different behavior on it.

As for docs making people addicts, you have either never had chronic pain (the kind where you leterally can't see or talk), or can grit your teeth and work tdhrough it. I wonder about the programs they have to work against addiction to oxycodone when the programs are aimed at people when they get out of jail. My wife never has been or will be in jail, and she suffers from hard to treat continous pain.

Can we link community safety to "no guns", a 5 mph speed limit, no swimming in rivers?

It sure must suck to be a victim all the time.

You keep saying "it" is a victimless crime. What exactly is the "it" you are referring to? I'm guessing your "it" is neither smoking nor selling pot. How do you know that the crimes you are actually complaining about are attributed to pot? Why couldn't they just as easily be attributed to another exponentially growing problem,Meth?

Uh oh. Now you did it.

Or opioids.
Or heroin. (heroine for some here. )
etc.

C'mon man. We all know drugs other than pot don't contribute to society's ills. The cause of ALL of society's ills is the legalization of marijuana. And before that, no one smoked weed, especially in OR, because it was illegal. Duh.

I believe the arbitrary legalization of a controlled substance with no oversight could cause an influx of stupidity into a given area.

But if that given area chose to legalize that controlled substance without considerations, wouldn't they be getting what they asked for?





Dave

In many cases, it's getting not what they wanted but what's shoved down their throats by a liberal state government in the small area of Portland/Eugene. From what I hear, most of the state wanted nothing to do with it.

A voice of reason....

Oregon did allow counties to vote if they wanted it legal or not... Our 2 democRAT county commissioners wanted it legalized and the one Republican didn't....they were claiming think of the added tax revenue!

But then no one seemed to notice that the first two 'grows' approved happened to be awarded to the two DemocRAT count
commissioners...

And as fairly mentioned above... What about Heroin, Meth etc...

Like any place, those problems existed already....

But then you all of a sudden, add 3000 plus "legalized grows" to the county..

which attracts gangs, and others from other states where dope isn't legal..

and with that added to the mix, what possibly could go wrong?

and lets face it....all of these out of state interests that have come into the county....

its not like we are received their most stellar citizens...

on the positive side, "Professional Criminals" who don't want to attract attention
are actually law abiding, helping the community in many ways.. and are taking
care of the gangs that attract local attention...

The Professional Ones, seem to be the older types, 40 and up..
and their products are going elsewhere...

The gang ones tend to be in their 20s or so...

but considering a place that has no real industry or jobs readily available
and the number of locals who never even finish high school, yet get involved
with Drugs.. get kicked out of their parents homes....the only way they seem
to support their addictions is thru crime...

and add all the others that have relocated here from places where dope isn't legal
they can't economically support themselves...

and the local welfare system can't support them... and our Salem democRATS
never set up anything for these types of problems.. that would cost money...

and it doesn't represent the things they want to spend money on... in Potland and Salem
no problem.. the rest of the STATE? we don't exist except for a source of revenue they
can take out of us all...

State funds were cut to this area.. and our sheriff's dept went from 90 plus deputies down
to a Sheriff and Two Deputies...in an large geographical area...

you don't think that doesn't attract crime... or cause those with no jobs, etc
not to head into crime when they county doesn't even have money to jail them?

They can't even enforce a warrant, when someone doesn't show up to court...
so what does a criminal have to lose? not much...

take those problems and add 3,000 dope grows.... yeah once again, what could go wrong?

Legalizing pot is pretty low on my GAF list but when I weigh everything about this issue I end up leaning toward legalizing it more than keeping it illegal.

At a recent city council meeting there were some less than productive members of society that plainly stated in the meeting that they had moved to this area, not only because medicinal marijuana was now legal, but also because the area is so rural there are no pesky lines at the distribution centers. This is a place that hits 100+ in the summer, and -30 in the winter. That leads me to believe places like Oregon and Colorado are experiencing the worst type of situation. They jumped the gun and their communities are going to suffer for it. Badly.




Dave

You provide your own point in your first sentence. Read AGAIN and you'll maybe get it, unless your like many around here and have a victim mentality.

More likely he is one of those who likes to smoke pot and thinks it should be legal.

If they would actually legalize it rather than simply regulate it through the state,all these gang related problems would go away.The problem is that the state is greedy and tries to maximize profits. The only way to take the crime out of it is to make it less valuable,to the extent that it's not worth the effort of big crime. Gangs don't deal in beer and whisky because it's too cheap and available. They did however when it wasn't,and there was the same kind of crime related to it when it was expensive and hard to get.

That's a well written perspective and I thank you for it.

With that side of it said, I'd still hate to see it used even more commonly than it already is. I don't think it has any societal value other than maybe pain management for sincerely needy patients.

I would completely agree with you as to it's value. It's exactly like alcohol though in that you aren't going to stop people from using it simply by making it illegal,expensive,or dangerous to obtain. All that does is make it more profitable on the black market.

If you could walk into a store and buy a quarter ounce of pot just like a pack of cigarettes, and at about the same price, every bit of the crime associated with it would suddenly go away. No one is stealing for money to buy cigarettes. Gangs aren't killing each other over the illegal cigarette trade either.

You would regulate it just like alcohol, and treat being high on pot,just like being high on alcohol.

Another thing that would happen,that most here can't see,is that if you take away the forbidden fruit aspect of it, it would quickly loose a lot of the cool factor. When it was as easy to get as a pack of cigarettes,a lot of kids just wouldn't be interested in it any longer.

Washington legalized it and since then I’ve not seen the problems that Oregon claims to have. It’s no longer a black market drug and the nefariousness of its use has been tempered. Where’s the profit for gangs if you can walk into a store and buy it cheaper legally?

Like alcohol if you want to break the law or circumvent the law by manufacturing your own you can take that risk but for the other 99.9% of the people they’ll go to the store and purchase it legally. What they do with the alcohol or pot (or gun) after purchasing it legally is where the trouble for society begins. Some people can drink socially and never have trouble, while for others the simple act of consuming one alcoholic beverage sets them on an inevitable path of destruction. Alcohol has much longer lasting affects than does pot and is far and away more destructive in all its forms than pot. Alcohol is physically addictive, pot isn’t, and alcohol is destructive to organs and tissue in ways that pot could only dream of. Alcohol has almost immediate and long lasting effects on motor skills and fine motor movements, judgement, mental acuity and perception. By using alcohol as a baseline there’s very few drugs that shouldn’t be legalized since most have less intoxicating affects than alcohol.

Blaming pot or alcohol or guns or donuts for your neighborhood problems is a lazy, ignorant way out for unthinking morons. Like I’ve asked before, does anyone really think that if alcohol was up for FDA approval today, knowing what we know about alcohol and how it affects the human body, that the FDA would approve its sale and use? I sure as hell don’t.

Aces:

I think often of your previous comments that your area doesn't have the problems that this county seems to have, with Jackson
County having the same or worse, right next to our county....

23 of the 33 counties in Oregon, voted to legalize it in their counties...its not legal in the entire state to grow it..
it requires local approval. Jackson and Josephine Counties have the largest number of registered grows
within the state and also the most problems...that have dramatically increases with its legalization.

Not sure what Western Washington County you reside in, but it sure sounds like they could teach
a lot to the local county government down here...These two counties are experiencing what few other
counties in Oregon are...

I compare this with places I have lived in my younger days, where the county was dry.. no alcohol could
legally be sold in the county.... but those places also had a very strong presence of Moonshine being
available... and yeah we are talking the South. And each of those locations, corruption was the reason
why.

I am sure that is the biggest reason we are experiencing what we are here.... and then added to it,
is it is either overlooked or ignored in Salem... which tells me their is corruption going on there also..

because these problems are openly known to exist, but they are not being addressed locally or
by the State.....

From what you describe being the opposite of what we see here in Southern Oregon, sounds like
your locale is on top of managing the hemp industry, and without corruption.

When two of the largest grows in the County are owned by Two of the Three County Commissioners,
and were also the first two approved by the State.. how much more obvious does it have to appear?

I think it was St Helen's Oregon.. the city up there won't sell city owned property to developers.
But the recently elected Mayor, who is pro Dope... just leased a large piece of city property
to a dope grower....

Medford, has had issues since I've lived here, or people wanting to open liquor stores, after hours
bars, strip clubs etc, on property that was close to schools.. and have consistently shot the applications
down... there is some city ordinance that those type of places can't be within 300 to 500 yds of any school
property... because it might influence children in a negative fashion.. as the argument goes.

Yet on the West Side of Medford on the Jacksonville Rd, there is an elementary school, that has probably
been there for 70 to 80 years....looks like it covers 5 acres give or take....but next to the school, on the same
side of the road, is a pot grow, that looks like it covers twice the acreage of the school property...

Never recall any fight over that being put in....you can certainly smell it this time of year when you drive
past it....and then past the dope grow are older family homes on nice sized lots....

Corruption is probably the core problem of this entire fiasco down this way.....and I'll bet ya
that most of it can be traced to the offices of the local DemocRATS....

I don't blame products for behavior but I can also acknowledge that in 2017 the majority of habitual marijuana users are less than productive members of society and not somebody we would typically want as a neighbor. The randomness of states legalizing a product that is prohibited at the federal level is going to cause those less than productive members of society to move into that area. I don't know where you live but it could be that the area you call home is cost prohibitive to Joe Schitbag and his girlfriend. Meaning, they're moving into your state just not right on top of your particular area. I admit this is a guess.

As far as crime, I think the few states dabbling in this experiment are going to continue to see an increase. If I can manufacture widgets legally, and that widget is still illegal in 40+ other states, then guess where I'm going to set up shop and start manufacturing and distribution?




Dave

And there lies the real issue at hand, the extensive revenue from a locally legal product...which is shipped out into an illegal black market in a neighboring state. No different than the Mexican Cartels have done for years here, a cheap effective way to make a lot of money...and if enough money is involved than crime is sure to follow. The growers in these states would never stay in business, if they had to rely on the local economy as their consumers...the retail pricing in their area is very very low, because of the large availability from growers.

Example: Large growers in California and Colorado get about $800-1000 a pound, but if they ship their same product to New York or Boston they get $4000-4500 a pound. Anyone with a U-Haul truck and the a connection make significant money by shipping East. The legal states are just a haven for the production process, unimpeded from the law by claiming medical/legal usage...if the state would monitor production quantities vs sales, and stop the export the money would dry up.

Federally it's illegal to ship across state lines, but it's forced upon local neighboring states to enforce trafficking to stop the flow in their area...that's an expensive venture to attempt to stop. The legal states make enough money from the legal dispensaries to wet their beaks, and don't care where the "surplus" product is disappearing to.

there's that invisible hand showing itself again, self-interest. local little "wet" towns draw in all kind of business from surrounding dry counties. the roads are run bare by the traffic. nothing much new under the sun, just have to be willing to exploit the laws.

Gus exactly,
So while legal states are pizzed at "weed", non-legal states that abide by federal law are pizzed at states like Oregon for shipping their wares our direction....but money "made" them do it, their local government is as dirty as the hippies growing.

There are a few things I'd like to clear up here. First of all, alcohol is not physically addicting. Neither, as far as we know, is weed. But they are emotionally addicting. Which for all practical purposes is just as bad to those who are inclined to abuse them. Tobacco, BTW, is not only physically addicting, but the worst of all, including the street drugs.
Second, all mind altering substances, that includes addicting pain meds, do alter ones attitudes and emotional makeup. Long term use literally alters one's out look and attitude(s) towards life in general. The more they are used, the worse it gets.
The relationship between crime and excessive use of drugs, including pot or alcohol is beyond question. Over 80% of all auto accidents involve drinking or drug use. Over 80% of the robberies are committed by people on something, etc. The list goes on and on.
Last of all, when comparing drugs to crime rates keep in find that crime rates are what the law enforcement officials say it is. Nobody audits crime stats..... So it depends on how honest the officials are.
90% of the crime we have falls into three general types. Drug crime, black crime and gang crime.
Legalizing pot eliminates the problems ? Criminal gangs don't deal in alcoholic beverages because they are legal ? Sure they do. They can sell in cheaper to retailers because they don't pay the high taxes on such things. Boot legging isn't what it once was, but it still goes on a lot more than many realize. E

Well said.

Whaaat ? lol

Yep. Tell that to the alky with the shakes.

Do you know the difference between the two ? Again, for all practical purposes, there is no difference to those who become addicted. Emotional addiction is just as tough to shake as physical addiction. I know because I've been helping people break their addictions to drugs and alcohol for over 16 years now. BTW, over 90% of those addicted to mind altering chemicals are dually addicted to both drugs and alcohol. E

Then you know that a severe alcoholic who is denied alcohol and in withdrawal can die.

If alcohol isn't addictive then why does a severe alcoholic go into DT's without it? It's a physical need,not just emotional.

There may be a few bootleggers still around but you won't find the local pushers selling pints on the street corner. They will be dealing in a more profitable commodity. The gangs in this country aren't making their money on alcohol.

The rise in craft beer sales has declined significantly the last two years. There's a prediction of a big shake out if the trend continues. Why? The beer industry says it is marijuana. This is not the government talking, it's not AG Sessions making claims, it is private industry. It seems beer drinkers are also locoweed users, and as locoweed has become legal and/or easier to acquire, beer drinkers are smoking more and drinking less.

As one alleged health expert in Denver is saying, if marijuana is a "gateway" drug to more potent narcotics, beer is the "gateway" drug to marijuana.

So all of you beer drinkers out there are apparently a short step from a life of drug addiction and crime..........

The bottom line is a drug is a drug.

We should've never repealed Prohibition.

And when I read and hear the righteous advocate criminalizing ALL drugs--tobacco, alcohol, locoweed, and narcotics--maybe even prescription opioids--then they'll have some credibility.

Until then, they are just picking and choosing among cultural desires.

DT's are brought on by damage to the brain over a long and heavy use of alcohol. If an alcoholic stops drinking after years of heavy use, he is in great danger of dying from this damage. He does not have to be to the point of suffering from the DT's, BTW. The withdrawal symptoms for alcohol are no where near the same as those for some one addicted the heroin for instance. But they are far more dangerous. Those of us who help alcoholics, believe it is the most dangerous substance to get off of. I know a guy who had a roommate when he was living at a treatment facility who died after he had stopped for five months. This why when an alcoholic checks into detox facility, the better ones monitor his condition by checking his vitals every two hours around the clock. E

There is much truth in what you say. I wish I had a nickel for every addict I've tried to help who went "back out," as we say, on a beer. E

i've heard on our local "fake news" channel that texting and driving is more dangerous and causes more car accidents than alcohol & drugs.

but that doesn't mean i condone alcohol nor drugs as a way to escape the real world.

what we're talking about are plant derived chemical substances (and a world full of synthetics), including sugar, caffeine, nicotene, opium, the one derived from s america, oh, cocaine, how could i forget. and of course chocolate, alcohol & mary jane derivatives.

it's not a simple issue, what with us humans being humans. how do the Ruskies deal with vodka? and on and on.

if we only had in our possession a higher quality level of human beings, our problems would be less than they currently are.

You can be emotionally addicted to anything.

The human body can absolutely become physically addicted to alcohol. To say otherwise is flat stupid.




Dave

It appears not



Nobody said emotional addiction wasn't a problem, but to state "no physical addiction from alcohol" is the dumbest statement of the year. Every addiction center and doctor in America would disagree, and I've dealt/seen enough addiction in my life to know you're full of chiit.

I'd bet a lot of your "crime and problems" are do to the fact that you legalized the grows to begin with.
The 3000+ illegal grows you already had don't like the competition.

that's an exceedingly interesting comment on so many levels.

drug dealers don't like competition. at least around here they don't. a lot of heists, killings, robberies, etc. occur because of it. turf wars.. they have territories and they defend them fiercely, to not do so would cause their demise as a successful, for profit orgn. they have families to feed, cars to buy, material goods to wear. gold & silver are an important part of the their everyday reprotorie, at least around here. the legals are actually taking food from the mouths of babes, due to their everyday dealings. that don't sit well with the gangs/drug purveyors, etc. this is a free market place, and it's being disrupted by the legal crew.

Anyone that says alcohol isn’t physically addictive really doesn’t have a clue what they’re talking about. For hardcore alcoholics alcohol is as necessary as air and less necessary than water. Watching an alcoholic detox will remove any doubt as to its physically addictive properties. The physical pain of detox, the delirium tremors and other involuntary muscle spasms will remove any doubt as to how physically addictive alcohol truly is. People die from alcohol detox and that’s a direct result of the physically addictive properties of alcohol. Detox from any other drug, save maybe heroin, is nothing compared to detox from alcohol.

If individual productivity was a baseline requirement for the social acceptance of recreational drugs then cocaine would have been legalized long ago. The legalization of marijuana here has removed the stigma and as a result there’s a lot of older retired people that take advantage of the medicinal properties of pot. The local “Bud Hut” has vanpools of elderly that stop in for their tea, bud, edibles and lotions. My conversations with some of the older folks that indulge has been eye opening. The relief they get in many cases has allowed them to drop certain meds while getting better results with less side effects. Regulating any substance based upon the extremes ignores all logic and punishes the majority unnecessarily.

Amen to that! With 75% of the land in this county owned by either the Forest Service, BLM or the State of Oregon...
This county was very high on the list of the amount of Marijuana destroyed annually, being grown on governmental
owned property...

When it was put on the ballot, the Sheriff's and County Attorney Associations opposed its legalization...
and contributed roughly $500K to advertise against its legalization. The Hemp Industry and "Interests" outside
the state spent over $7.5 million on advertisement to legalize it.... who do you think is going to win that contest
regardless of what the subject is... its the amount of money spent.

States like Oregon and Colorado for example.....remind me of Canada during our prohibition in the 1920s...
Of course it is well known the amount of Booze ran across the border from Canada... you see it in almost ever
movie about Gangsters in the 20s and 30s.....What few people know is that Canada, also had prohibition during the
same period. However the Canadian Government Authorized the manufacture of alcohol as long as it was not
distributed in Canada. The Canadian Government made millions from importing it across the border into the USA.
Its how Seagrams got its start.

Oregon is doing the exact same thing, by most of what is grown locally in this county, going outside the state.
The News has reported large busts in places as far as Miami and Boston, that came from here.

Yet Jeff Sessions sent a letter to the Governor of Oregon, Kate Brown inquiring about this and what the state
was doing to prevent the product leaving the State. Her and Senator Jeff Merkley both "ASSURED" the Justice
Dept that the State of Oregon was making sure the product wasn't leaving the state, and it was being consumed
locally. Don't know if that made the news nationally or not.. certainly made the local talk radio circuit within Oregon.

Anyone involved in the industry in this county, even the local people who just work at these grows for $20
an hour just to trim the plants, can tell you that 85 to 90% of what is grown in Josephine County is going
out of state. Part of their job is to help load the vehicles... its not being done at 3 in the morning with a tight
group of people....

But as Cal pointed out... its in competition with the illegal grows that were here before the state legalized it.

On a trip back home to Oregon when I was doing a trip to the East Coast back in 2012, I was crossing Utah and
out off of I 80 half way between Salt Lake and the Nevada border, their was some scruffy looking guy broke down
off the hwy in a ratty look Dodge Mini Van with Oklahoma Plates.... he has some gal with him also..

he has a gas can and said he ran out of gas, and could I give him a ride back to where he could get some fuel..
like 40 miles away or so....ain't much on I 80 in that stretch but nothingness... he left his GF and the dog to 'guard the min
van'....

So we are talking as we drive along, and he asks where I'm from.. I tell him Grants Pass OR...
Then he tells me how he just came from Grants Pass... he and his GF make 3 to 4 trips a month
from Grants Pass to Oklahoma City.... I didn't have to ask what that was all about.

So yeah, Cal is right... its not like this stuff wasn't going on before legalization.

Its just increased a thousand fold.. its no longer being grown out in the woods on Federal Land...
People are coming in with lots of money and buying property with Water available, and jacking
the pricing thru the roof for what the local economy can afford...

and even tho there is suppose to be a limit on how much can be grown on a 'legal grow'
which is a small number of plants, in ratio to the size of grows you see everywhere in the local area.

There is only a small part of what is supposedly "legal", actually following the law...

both in size of the grows, along with where the finish product is going...

I personally hope the Feds start enforcing it being against Federal law.. at least the part
of it crossing state lines to where it isn't legal....

But I maintain, the real money on all of this is going into Governmental Officials pockets,
and the DemocRATic Party's Coffers....thru corruption....

Obama and the Clintons have made corruption an "In Thing" to do for Governmental Officials,
Translating that it is OK to do so, where it was illegal before hand...

They haven't increased corruption so much, as they have legitimized it....

DemocRATS have nothing on South American Dictatorships when it comes to Corruption...
Latin America is second string....

Then you proved my point, it's not the weed it's the corruption of government and the money they make. Choices were made/voted to accept the downfall of legal grows, and in the end you're shipping it out to the "illegal" states to infiltrate our communities.

Many states have voted down legislation to legalize weed, even for medical purposes. But when the flood gates are opened to the Monsanto's and Phillip Morris's of the world, their coffers are much bigger than anybody that chooses to fight them. Many of the Medical states have limited legal vendors to 2 or 4 certified growers, that limits or eliminates sales out of state...of course doesn't make the local growers happy.

You reap what you sow

i mean no disrespect, but the DEA, feds, narcs, whomever they are can't even keep the cartels from mexico & central america from shipping stuff from there to points further north through phoenix, dallas, atlanta, and up the east coast to new york, boston, etc.

why penalize legitimate american growers while the cartels run wild??? i'm serious, shouldn't we begin enforcing the border laws first? or do they have a free pass?

People do drugs because they have too much free time. They're not working 10-12 hours per day to bring in the harvest or butcher the cow. Living is easy, even for the poor in this country.




P

probably all that pharmseller posts is true enough. a lot of folks are desperate. they become hooked on drugs, then they become even more desperate.

desperation rules in both the urban & rural areas for a lot of folks, whether young, middle aged or old.

i think i'll take a break, and see what the newest drug is being advertised on TV.

my doctor will be curious as to what i can recommend to her for trial.

Well Gus.. this nation has a lot of problems and it is from corruption...
yeah, the DEA can stop this, "if they wanted to"... keeping the problem alive, is where the money
is....typical government.. they love to create a problem if one doesn't exist.. so we have to employ
them to solve the problem they created and then perpetuate...

yeah, we need to close the borders and we also have a lot of undesirables that need to be sent back
to where they came from...

And we are talking within our own borders.. seems logistically a lot simpler than trying to enforce
illegal activities outside of our borders, and only being able to tackle them once they show up on the
door step....

and now For Bwana...

yeah, it is the Corruption.. and its also the product.. regardless of what the product might be...

its not a what came first type of thing, the chicken or the egg...

The product and the corruption make up two halves of the circle...

And as was pointed out... its what the liberals up in Potland and Salem voted in..

most of the rest of the state didn't want a thing to do with it...

and if our local counties are any indication, its only corruption that allowed dope
into the 23 of 33 counties within the state...

The solution to the problem is not, why is dope here....

The solution to the problem is getting rid of the two fold reasons its here..
The dope and the corrupt governmental officials.. that stretch all the way to the
Governor's Office and the State Senators in Washington DC...

I've seen people my entire life talk about the Corruption of the Good Ol Boys Club
in the south...

Living in Boston, Minneapolis, being near Chicago, Growing up outside of Metro DC...
Seattle, Rural Oregon....

the Corruption of the Good Ol Boys in the South, are second string relief Squad compared
to what exists elsewhere in this country....

Corruption is a good reason the Feds aren't enforcing Federal Laws regarding the
distribution...much less the growing of marijuana...

Of minor interest, if anyone ever gets ahold of an Internal Revenue Code, or live near
a Federal Depository Library... check out the subject of Marijuana in the IRC past and present.

There is 40 plus pages addressing Marijuana in the Internal Revenue Code...

one of the original enforcements against it, was that the Feds couldn't collect the taxes on it..
much like Revenuers chasing down moonshine makers back in those southern Hills...

in the 20s and 30s, Marijuana was a major crop in the Philippines.. which was a US territory.
to give it an economy, Marijuana was grown in the P.I., and there was no tax on it coming into the USA
but there was a tax on Marijuana grown stateside...

of course it was used more for industrial uses in those days, vs recreational pharmaceutical uses...

You're correct, the border needs tightened up. But the Cartels aren't shipping weed like in the old days, the changes in US law have dropped the price significantly...and Border busts for weed are almost 1/2 of what they were in 2010. The Cartels devote their time to cocaine, heroine, Oxi's,,,the opiate market is thriving, and the health concerns in this country prove that.

and identifying another reason that there is so many dope grows and people
involved with Marijuana in Southern Oregon...

along with the time to go out and commit crimes to benefit themselves at other's expenses..

with no repercussions because of how little police presence we have

and how little Salem can give a schitt about it...

if it isn't in Salem, Eugene or Potland, they really could care less about the rest of the state...

they just want us to milk tax money out of.. so they can build their liberal utopia up north...

there it is. there's limited resources available for the control of illegal substances (unless we want to raise the taxes of working men & women through the roof). so, a logical first step might be to focus our limited resources on the most egregious illegal drugs first? that'd be a positive start related to getting a positive societal payback from the investments in control that DEA & affiliates are engaging. i have no problem with controlling illegal drugs. but, there ought to be a bit of thoughtfulness in the process, not just a wild orgy of spending tax=payers money with no results. please excuse me, i'm searching for new pharmaceuticals being advertised on tv, encouraging me to ask my doctor about whether they'll be helpful to me if i try them.

Actually it is, your corrupt "powers to be" DIDN'T show up when weed was legalized,,,they helped legalize it. If weed wasn't legal, do you think they would be honest pillars of the community ? No, they would have voted in Adult book stores, Pharmacies doling out Oxi's like candy, hookers on every corner, etc...If massive money can be made, corruption will follow soon after...think Mafia.




The states that legalized promised their constituents that the tax dollars would help the economy, thus improving roads/schools/etc. Many of those states have invested into their infrastructure and community improvements. Your crooked team has far too few of police available, after allowing 1000's of growers into the community. Considering most of the weed leaves your state, but all of the revenue stays there...the growers income is being spent within the local community. So your revenues/taxes are up, and the final product weed is another states problem.

My point is: It could be worse, from heroine to Oxi the potential horror would dwarf your weed issue. Vote out your local government and start over, or move.

NOT voting out elected representatives that don't support you is a dereliction of duty.

voting in elected representatives that better represent you and your point of view is a duty.

drugs are a scourge on our society. but we've got them. they're even being sold by high-paid marketers.

what we can do is begin to take control of our immediate surroundings, including our communities at every level.

That’s going to come as a surprise to many alcoholics.

Yep, that's what I'm saying...it's the corruption of local gov that screwed them...they're blaming the wrong people.





Yea, a real revelation in alcoholism must be taking place

Bwana...

you assume, that I am totally ignoring the OXI, Heroin, Meth etc...

dope etc, has just multiplied the entire scenario.... don't get me going on that crap..

at least those aren't legalized also...their use is also off the charts locally.

and the sad thing is, all of this money promised to the communities...
ours sure isn't seeing it...

just like the dope, its going elsewhere...
and lining the pockets of a few select well connected political critters...

Like we locals stood by and just let it happen? I don't think so...
Out of state money bought what this county has turned into...

Yet we locals have to stand down.... personally I'd love to vigilante groups start
burning these grows down in the middle of the night...and I've have no issues
participating....

and this concept always used.. If you don't like it, MOVE...

That is a lazy man's way out....The entire attitude with this, is just like dealing
with liberals and liberalism... just run away from it....that is why they are taking
over the entire nation, and destroying every decent place under the sun....

because people run away from their problems instead of standing up and doing
something about it...

Minus the smell, I could care less about people growing the dope.. its all the crap
that comes with it... the social issues and problems....

yet too many seem to smoke dope themselves, act like those social problems and issues
are figments of our imagination....

and I get called a "victim" by some of the members on this forum, strictly because I care
about my community and my neighbors well being.... they throw that word around
like Liberals throw around the word RACIST....

and like moving, and running away from these issues is just a smarter and more macho
way to deal with such things....
yeah and now we see why the entire nation is going down the path its going...

Bad things happen when good men do NOTHING...

Seafire,
I understand you have a problem in your beloved area, but it's the politicians fault it happened....whether the additional revenue coming in from growers cash haul in local purchases, or payoff's from the Monsanto/Phillip Morris's of the world....the money flow is staggering, but should be used for the betterment of the community(like police, ambulance, schools, senior centers, roads).

But where is that money ?, where's it going to ?...in somebody's pocket as we speak. And as long as they get rich it won't change, vote their ass out and start fresh. If they had voted in Medical use, requiring a card there would be less issues...but recreational opened up growers dealing to other states, and every hippie with a car coming your way to live the "life".

in a nutshell, we have something we can agree upon, right here & now.

we can elect local representatives that reflect our views, needs & expectations.

right now, complacency rules the land. i think ol jimmah called it a malaise affecting us.

If we want to put a dent in the pot trade, the ONLY means to do that is if ordinary citizens use the SSS method, which ain't gunna happen. So enjoy it cause it ain't going anywhere. Hell I might even start smoking myself.

You just can't legislate morality my friend. If you could,then we should lock up folks for adultery too. Then the prisons would be full,citizens over taxed, and the courts over worked. Wait,isn't that exactly what is happening with the war on drugs?

Someone else will just fill the slot, and you will buy free trouble or a trip to the prison...isn't worth any of that. While it's legal there's nothing you can do but tolerate, and stay clear of the madness.

Roe vs Wade sure did legislate immorality tho didn't it?

No,it just made it easier and more sanitary. They were doing it with coat hangers before the legislation.

As always,you have to attack the source and not the means. Just like liberals wanting to get rid of guns because they kill people,so are conservatives wanting to get rid of drugs because they kill people. We know that there will be illegal guns in the hands of criminals no matter what legislation we pass. I don't understand why conservatives can't make the same logical leap to understand that there will also always be illegal drugs no matter what legislation we pass.

To stop the problems we have to treat the symptoms. We have to learn why it is becoming more prevalent in our society for a madman to go on a mass shooting. We also need to learn why certain drugs have become such a problem in this country. I personally think the problem started with the break down of the family and Christian values and morality.

My point is after abortion was legalized it changed from backstreet to mainstream. Those are exactly the kind of things that lead to the breakdown of family and Christian values, celebrating immorality we see today.

I don't see it that way at all. My view on the morality of abortion didn't suddenly change because it became legal. Neither did yours,I assume. Neither did it for anyone else who held it as immoral. It's legalization didn't cause us to celebrate it,not accept it.

It's the same way with your pot smokers. They aren't going to suddenly stop because you make it illegal,nor will those who view it as morally wrong or just unhealthy suddenly light up when it's legal. It's always available whether legal or not. You seem to keep missing that point. I haven't smoked any pot in about 20 years but I could have bought some in an hour at anytime in the last 20 years right here in Alabama where it is illegal. The legality of it has not effected it's availability in the least. The reasons I'm not smoking it has nothing to do with it's legality.

You always forget a VERY important fact, the religious "nones" in this country has grown to 25%...add the Jews and non-secular in the mix, and that very significant population doesn't care nor heed "morality". Since morality comes from the teachings of the bible, it has no relevance in laws like abortion.

You should quit judging your fellow man with 1 hand, while beating your bible with the other...both arms will be tired, and God won't care in the end.

So legalizing abortion and consequently killing millions of people did nothing to contribute to the breakdown of family and Christian values. Got it, thanks.

A man is either moral or he isn't. Laws and mainstream don't change that.

People aren't born X, stamped on the ass and sent out the door never to be anything more or less. What a man does, what he dwells on, is a progressive situation, for better or, in your case, for worse.

I'm betting you have a big X on your ass.

I went with an X rather than the bullseye you took.

Show me where I commented on abortion ?, you were busy judging weed growers as immoral, now it's abortion...try to stay on topic.

Have you been smoking a bong tonight ?

I'm still having trouble with Seafire's opening of "legalized victimless crime".

What rock do this idiot crawl out from???

Why Is Alcohol Addictive?

According to the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, alcohol dependence is a condition characterized by impaired control over drinking, compulsive drinking, pre-occupation with drinking, tolerance to alcohol and/or withdrawal symptoms. Alcohol abuse is characterized by failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school or home, interpersonal social and legal problems and/or drinking in hazardous situations.1 In the U.S., about 17.6 million adults currently suffer from alcohol abuse or dependence. Several million more engage in risky, binge-drinking patterns that can lead to dependence or abuse.2
What Makes Alcohol Addictive?

Drug addictions including alcohol abuse are characterized by greatly diminished executive control over behavior and increased compulsive drug seeking.3 Neurotransmitters are chemical signals that serve as messengers between nerve cells and carriers of the nerve impulse. Dopamine is a type of neurotransmitter that helps control the brain’s reward and pleasure centers. Glutamate is a neurotransmitter that serves as a major mediator of excitatory signals in the central nervous system. It is involved in most aspects of normal brain function including cognition, memory and learning. Both of these play a primary molecular role in alcoholism. The consumption of alcohol increases the release rate of dopamine, thereby inducing feelings of happiness and euphoria. Alcohol consumption inhibits glutamate receptor activity, which results in calmness and reduced anxiety. The feelings of euphoria combined with reduced anxiety create a false sense of security or perceived relief from depression in drinkers.4

A mouse model study published in 2013 found that chronic alcohol exposure shifted behavior control away from the prefrontal cortex, an area of the brain involved in decision-making and control of emotions. When this occurred, the dorsal striatum assumed this responsibility, an area of the brain thought to play a key role in motivation and habit formation. Past studies have shown that alcohol dependent individuals exhibit problems with skills mediated by the prefrontal cortex such as impulse control. Researchers theorize that the shift to increased striatal control over behavior could be a critical step in the progression of alcoholism. These changes could contribute to the emergence of habitual and compulsive patterns of behavior in alcohol abuse, with potential therapies focused on normalizing striatal function.3
Alcohol and Endorphins

In January 2012, research published in the journal Science Translational Medicine showed evidence that pleasure associated with drinking alcohol is caused by endorphins being released to areas of the brain called the nucleus accumbens and the orbitofrontal cortex. Endorphins are small proteins with opiate-like effects that are produced naturally in the brain. The nucleus accumbens is a region of the brain that has been linked to addictive behavior, while the orbitofrontal cortex is associated with decision-making. While animal studies conducted over the last 30 years provided clues to this underlying process, this is the first time that endorphin release in response to alcohol consumption in these two regions of the brain has been directly observed in humans.5,6

Using PET imaging, researchers at the Ernest Gallo Clinic and Research Center at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) studied 25 subjects. Thirteen individuals drank heavily and 12 drank moderately. Regardless of the amount the study subjects drank, researchers detected endorphins being released in the brain in response to alcohol consumption. However, there was a more pronounced effect in heavy drinkers. The amount of endorphins being released in the brain’s orbitofrontal cortex was linked to a higher degree of feeling intoxicated. “This indicates that the brains of heavy or problem drinkers are changed in a way that makes them more likely to find alcohol pleasant, and may be a clue to how problem drinking develops in the first place,” said Jennifer Mitchell, PhD, clinical project director at the Gallo Center and an adjunct assistant professor of neurology at UCSF.5,6
How Addictive Is Alcohol?

While the number of people with alcohol dependence and abuse speaks to its highly addictive properties, there is a set of criteria that is used to determine addictive properties of several widely abused substances.7 This is particularly useful for comparison.

Withdrawal: Presence and severity of characteristic withdrawal symptoms.
Reinforcement: A measure in human and animal tests of the substance’s ability to cause users to take it repeatedly, and in preference to other substances.
Tolerance: The amount of a substance needed to satisfy increasing cravings for it, and the level of stable need that is eventually reached.
Dependence: How difficult it is for a user to quit, the relapse rate, the percentage of people who eventually become dependent, the degree to which the substance is used despite evidence of its harmful effects, and users’ self-rating assigned to their need for the substance.
Intoxication: Although it is not typically included as a measure of addiction per se, intoxication level is associated with addiction and increases the personal and social damage a substance can incur.7

On a scale of 1 to 6, with 1 being less serious and 6 being the most serious, these are the specific addictive properties of alcohol. In context with other substances, alcohol has a higher withdrawal and intoxication rate than heroin or cocaine.4

Withdrawal: 6
Reinforcement: 4
Tolerance: 4
Dependence: 3
Intoxication: 6

Two other statistics that speak to the addictive properties of a substance are annual treatment admissions and mortality, although it is a known fact that only a small percentage of people with alcohol problems receive proper treatment. About 1.5 million adults received treatment for an alcohol use disorder at a specialized facility in 2014 (only 8.9% of adults who needed treatment). This included 1.1 million men and 431,000 women. Nearly 88,000 people die from alcohol-related causes every year in the U.S.8

There are many reasons why a person abuses alcohol including craving attention, gaining social acceptance, alleviating pain, as a coping mechanism for co-occurring mental health disorders and many others. In addition, research points to genetic factors that influence addiction. Scientists are hopeful that pinpointing the area of the brain that responds pleasurably to alcohol consumption will ultimately lead to more efficacious treatment options for alcohol addiction.

Substance Abuse – What Drives Alcohol Addiction. Wake Forest Baptist Health website. http://www.wakehealth.edu/Health-Central/What-Drives-Alcohol-Addiction/ Updated November 20, 2015. Accessed July 31, 2016.
Facts About Alcohol. National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence website. https://www.ncadd.org/about-addiction/alcohol/facts-about-alcohol Updated July 25, 2015. Accessed July 31, 2016.
DePoy L, Daut R, Brigman JL, et al. Chronic alcohol produces neuroadaptations to prime dorsal striatal learning. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA. 2013;110(36):14783-14788. doi:10.1073/pnas.1308198110.
Alcoholism: A Neurological Perspective. The National High School Journal of Science. http://nhsjs.com/2015/alcoholism-a-neurological-perspective/ Published October 18, 2015. Accessed July 31, 2016.
Chan AL. Why Alcohol Is So Addictive. Huffington Post. January 13, 2012 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/13/alcohol-addictive-endorphins-_n_1202406.html Accessed July 31, 2016.
Clue as to why alcohol is addicting: Scientists show that drinking releases brain endorphins. Science Daily website. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120111155137.htm Published January 12, 2013. Accessed July 31, 2016.
Addictive Properties of Popular Drugs. Drug War Facts website. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Addictive_Properties#sthash.OLoVqe5J.dpbs Accessed July 31, 2016.
Alcohol Facts and Statistics. National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism website. https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics Published January 2016. Accessed July 31, 2016.