Interesting names will be considered. ould you vote for any of these guys?

Fred McGriff
Gary Sheffield
Dale Murphy?

What about

Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGuire?

BTW - I would have never voted for harold Baines. He belongs in the Hall of Pretty Good with many others I like.

I would not vote for the steroid users, the last four on your list.

Clemens...maybe, the rest no. I agree with Baines comment.

Steroids were in baseball well before the 90s....I imagine there are more than several are in the Hall that used steroids.

I wouldn’t vote for any of them.

Murphy is a class act and was a good player. I'm not certain he is HOF good, but certainly deserves a spot in the Atlanta Braves best all time players roster.

I’d vote for them all.

My first choice would be for Charley Hustle - aka Pete Rose.

Steroid users destroyed meaningful baseball historical stats and ultimately the hall of fame. Such a shame.

There are plenty of guys already in the hall that used them. It's a friggen travesty.

Barry and Roger are two of the best to ever lace em’ up.

The self-righteous deniers need to STFU.

^This.

Can you imagine a bunch of pretentious baseball WRITERS keeping this guy out forever.

If he isn’t in, the HOF is a joke.

The 1st 4 no; good players, not HOF'ers.

The last 4, a reluctant yes, in spite of the steroid use, much as I hate to have to say it...........& I absolutely despise Bonds.

Baines is not a legitimate HOF'er either, not even close.

MM

Pete Rose should be in the HOF, period.

I understand everyone’s dislike of Bonds, but in the last 40 years, who would you rather see take an at-bat?

Mariano Rivera

Bands is an ass, but in my view, he was a legit HOFer before he juiced. He was 500 HRs and 300 SBs and .300 lifetime hitter without the juice. McGuire juiced from day one, so if you are anti juice, then he's got a problem. Same with Sosa. He was an early adopter of PED's.

I'd vote for Roger Clemens, and would probably vote for Bonds although I never could stand him.

No mention of curt schilling

I'm in this camp!

Go ahead. My list was not meant to be all inclusive. Far short of 300 wins. He does have 3100 K's. I put Shilling in my Dale Murphy category. Dominated his ear at a level above what the stats show. 216 wins is a long, long way from 300, and that will be the argument. If I'm voting, he's in long before Baines.

That's pretty much the gist of it all Jeff. Bonds and Clemens were legit before the juicing, and they were both legit [bleep] too. I guess age makes you gravitate towards that PED stuff, don't know. I do know when I played against McGwire in Modesto, 1984 or '85, he was a wirey 3rd baseman. When I saw him in instructional league a couple of years later, he was a freaking beast, alongside Canseco. Thinking about a possible brawl and having to deal with McGwire, Canseco, Dave "Cobra" Parker, Ron Hassey, and Dave Henderson wasn't a pleasant thought!

I probably wouldn't vote for any of those listed, but would vote for Pete Rose immediately.

I met Dave Parker about 10 years ago. He's one GIANT mofo! He stood out in a room of NFL guys.

Sounds like you were surrounded by the '87 A's. Hope you made friends!!!!

Some of you guys act like you know exactly when these guys started juicing.

Clemens could've started roids in high school for all you know.

Wouldn't vote for any of those listed, or for Pete Rose. Obviously, he deserves it for what he did on the field, but he damaged the integrity of the game with his gambling habit and should pay the price for that. Plus, keeping him out serves as a warning and a deterrent to future would-be gamblers.

They all belong in the Hall! I would vote for all of them. And Add Pete Rose to the List.

Not the issue, nobody is sayin' he couldn't hit; Bonds is just an Azzhole...............note the capital A.

MM

How do we really know when the doping by any of these guys started? I suspect a lot of players used PED’s long before MLB started policing its use. Steroids and other performance enhancing drugs weren’t just available in the 90’s and early 2000’s. I even wonder about my all-time favorites like Mickey Mantle; did they use? I say if their stats were good enough when they played, vote them in! And I agree that Pete Rose not being in the Hall of Fame is a travesty of huge proportions!

It is not the personality Hall of Fame, It is the Baseball Hall of Fame. There are a lot of a-holes in sports, doesn't change the fact that they are great athletes. Judge their merit on the field of play.

I agree with you 100%

Rose was the best hitter I've ever seen outside of Ted Williams & should be in the HOF, period.

But the guy is just nuttier than a fruitcake & is totally out of touch with reality, whether it be drugs or too many whacks to the noggin' or whatever.

But it's really criminal that he's been arbitrarily blackballed from the HOF.

MM

Pete Rose... +1,000...

If you are familiar with it, it's easy to tell. You just don't start sporting 19" biceps because you took out a gym membership. You don't get every vein in your upper body standing out because you decided to start some cardio. Your face fills out because your masseter muscle grows along with the other skeletal muscles, and the estrogenic side effects of Test or Dbol or Deca make you retain water.

Bonds 1992 NL MVP



Bonds 1999

(He got bigger after this)

Guys that know what they are doing take Estrogen blockers. But that's another topic. Look at Reggie's rook or early career photo's and look at him towards the end. Sorry but to many were doping before testing so its pretty much a mute point.

Doping isn't just for getting big. It promotes healing too. You know who never doped? Griffey, had he his career would have been long and even more storied.

H,
I’m not arguing with you about what you say about steroid use, just that for HOF induction, it can’t be the deciding factor. When I graduated from high school, I was 5’10” tall and weighed 170 lbs. By age 25 I was 6’0” and weighed 180 lbs. By age 35 I weighed 215 and was solid muscle. I have never taken any PED’s in my life. I just got older...........

Dale Murphy was a dominant player in his era and, accordingly, should have been inducted into the HOF years ago.

RS

Pete Rose is a different case altogether. He'll never get in because he bet on the game. That is the ultimate no-no in baseball. Not only that, he was such an arrogant prick about it, he denied everything until the Commissioners Office produced his betting slips. Oops!


All Pete had to do was to say:

"Yeah, I bet on baseball. I have a gambling addiction, and I need help with it."

He could have done his rehab and been in the HOF 25 years ago.

I have a minority view on the PED era. It was what it was. The best players form the era deserve to be in, in my opinion. There is no pill you can take or juice you can stick in your butt that will help you square up the baseball. If there was, I would have taken 2.

I'd vote for Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Clemens. Palmiero? Now I have an issue with him. He took 'em, testified before Congress he never did, and then got busted for 'em AFTER testing begun. I keep him out because he is too stupid to be allowed in.

FACT!

Canseco told who was juicing in his book, and he was proven right about it in spite of the pissing an moaning it created when the book came out. There were lots of guys taking PED's in that era, as Jeff has said, not just the stars. They were stars because they were better than everyone else, not because they took PED's. Lot's of avg players took them as well, and make no mistake, the owners knew about it and didn't care.

The Hall of Fame, like all recognition lists, is as much a Miss America contest or figure-skating scoring as anything - subjective selection based on voter bias.. Deserving players get left off, while others get on.

I say no to all of them. Rose is a different case entirely but his gambling can't be forgiven although when he played he was great. I really don't know what is worse juicing or gambling but both were against the rules therefore no HOF entry.

Let me help you out with Mickey Mantle. Dianabol was developed in the 1950's and it's use in those days was confined to the US Olympic team. Bodybuilders found it in the mid 1960's. I had the pleasure of knowing Mantle. He lived in Georgia with his girlfriend in the late 1980's (out at Reynold's Plantation) and I played golf with him a number of times and will tell you he was all the good things you've read about — and he did drink like a fish up until his last couple of years. Even in his early to mid 50's, he had a great physique.

Mantle was 5'11 1/2, about 190, and built like D1 running back. Short torso, long arms and legs, big thighs and butt. That's why he was so fast. That rump and thighs was made the ball go. Baseball didn't embrace weight training until the `late 1980s.

The first two MLB players i'm convinced juiced was Brian Downing, OF for the Angels and Larry Parrish, catcher for the Tigers. In one off season, Downing went from skinny runt to muscle beach and his power number went way up. Parrish was sporting 19" arms and 16" forearms and pecs that looked like armor plating.

Again, if you know what to look for, you can spot a serious juicer.

Not everyone juices for max gains. On top of that I know of a bunch of scrawny guys that get into lifting and put on gains that would make you think they juiced, but have not.

That may be true, but you can only get so big lifting weights. PED's, etc add a whole 'nother realm of possibilities.

Interesting about Mantle....he was a freak for sure. I'm no Dr, or expert, but I always heard the telltale signs were not only the vein popping appearance, which became obvious, but it was also notable increases in hat and shoe size..

Sure, but I'll go back to natural guys do not get freaky vascularity, they don't get "moon face" from water retention etc. etc.

As JG said, Canseco named names and was proven right.


Now, back to HOF.

I'm glad Jack Morris made it, even though he didn't have 300 wins.

Thanks H for the information about Mantle. He WAS baseball for me in the 50’s and 60’s. I almost lost interest in MLB when he left the game.

i don’t think the people that vote will ever vote for known druggies. I’m surprised Bagwell got in!

No one is saying they don't. No baseball player got that BIG!

Sure guys get vascular naturally too. No Baseball Player was ever Lee Haney Vascular freaky. In the end you have to see the ball and have the right swing and timing. No juice is going to give that to you. Now HGH can and will improve sight.

Do y'all think that Tigger Woods was juicing?

I do, but I'm surely not very knowledgeable on the subject.

MM

I don't think so. Not saying he never has, I just doubt it. His swing was always powerful. His club head speed is fast from his body make up more so than his strength. In my opinion anyways.

Well. he sure as hell put on a lot of upper body mass pretty quick like................he was really skinny when he 1st went pro.

I'm sure he was diligent on the workouts too though.

MM

High School is exactly when these guys get started. Matt Holliday is a modern an example. He is a good kid, and comes from a good family, but he was dirty in high school and his dad supported it. Of course, all those guys mentioned in the OP were role models for him.

He did in fact fill out. I don't see any huge changes in his club speed. He has played around with his swing a bunch, but even that didn't create any major or alarming speed changes. Just my opinion. I don't know a lot about golf, but I have seen some big powerful guys that can't drive a ball for [bleep]. In my opinion the short game is were you make your money.

Kenny Powers.

Never hear of him. What era?

HBO....circa 2015

Yeah, all that is true, but it's hard to be in a position to make putts when you're hitting 5 irons into greens compared to guys who are hitting 9 irons or wedges into greens, & that comes from being able to drive the ball long, even if it's out of the fairway somewhat..................That's parts of what has made Dustin Johnson a good player & why Jordan Speith struggles on some courses.

MM

Time to let the steroid users in. I hate to say it but they belong. The users who hold records will always have an astrek by their names in my mind. Future generations though will consider it just an era. Lots of history in MLB. I’m sure there has been cheating, collusion, drugs, gambling and other misreads unknown now and never to be known.

Pete Rose belongs in.

Harold Baines, meh. Was a veterans selection. There are other members of his caliber. Cases could be made for others not currently in with similar careers. Once the obvious superstars are in it seems to get pretty subjective.

Short game isn't just about putting. Driving the ball there is greater allowable margin of error. The short game the margin of error is much smaller.

ring3 I agree totally

No.

Is he a commentator for HBO?

I'd vote for Dale Murphy.

I'd never vote for a steroid user.

Clemens was a .506 pitcher, 40W - 39L, during his last four years with Boston, 1993 - 1996, but he seems to have found the Fountain of Youth in Toronto, going 41W - 13L, .752, during the next two years and then 77W - 36L, .681, during the next four years in New York., and then 38W - 18L, .679, during the next three years with Houston. To recap, Clemens went through a four year drought and then went on to win 162 of his 352 games. That seems a bit suspicious to me.

Once again, Pete Rose.

He may have had a gambling habit, so did Michael Jordan, etc., etc., etc.,. GMAFB, How many sins has everyone on the Fire stacked up over the years?

The difference is Pete was not so chummy with the commissioners, because he was a class A narcissist, but so were the assshole commissioners (they should wind up in there for being the greatest douchebags in baseball history).

So What!? If there was ever a classic model of hypocrisy it has to be sports.

Bonds might be an assshole too, but both he and Pete belong there because they both had a HUGE impact on how to play the game.

Bonds crushed that shtt, and how many players went head first into the bag like Pete? Pete was downright phenomenal, no one playing today is even close to his persona.

Remember David Justice and his cocky ass pissing off the Braves' fans in the nineties? Doesn't matter, the guy was awesome, and he knew it!

Is what it is, I guess. I will always feel there is a tarnish to baseball because it refuses to recognize the greats, only because they felt like their character didn't measure up to some 'halo' appropriated standards.

Put them all in the damn HOF and include the dumb [bleep] they pulled. This is too much like liberals rewriting history to meet their unrealistic expectations of perfection. Can't have the good and bad printed next to their HOF shrine, it might make them look more human, which I guess doesn't sell as well as the BS superhero sales spin they throw at the fans in regard to the players.

One of the Cardinal sins for MLB players is gambling on the game.

RULE 21 (d) is absolutely clear on the subject of gambling on the game.

(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

Pete Rose was a great player who got caught breaking RULE 21 (d). He did the crime and is doing the time.

Pete Rose, first.

All else is twaddle.

Baseball is a business. The owners made money during that era and most certainly games were won with players doping. And I am sure the owners knew it as well. No team has forfeited a game or title during this time so its time to move on. And Pete Rose deserves to be in the hall as well.

Fred McGriff is HOF material in my book.

I think they should have stopped inducting people 15-20 years ago.

One player has a chance to develop into a career Pete Rose "personna" and that is Bryce Harper. He plays with a nasty attitude.

Along with that, many of the early inductees are highly suspect when it comes to their abilities/accomplishments.

Tell it to the Aaron and Marris families.

But lacks the hustle.

I'll put in a plug foe Shoeless Joe Jackson.

ha ha ha . . .good one!

By the mid sixties it was well known that PEDS had worked their way into baseball and football.

Anybody here that wouldn't vote for Mariano Rivera?

Edgar Martinez needs to be in. Career .312 hitter and I'm a homer.

100% yes. No one goes to doping doctors for anything other than doping.

This. Always liked Murphy, a very class act.

Hated the guy 'cuz he was just so darned good.

But heck yeah I'd vote for him. Might be the best ever reliever.

There were highschoolers and college atheletes doing roids in the 60 and 70s....folks really believe Aaron and others may not have partaken?

Todd Helton. Alas, he played in Colorado and won't be considered. Great player regardless of venue. No steroid controversy at all. Career .316 batting average(60th all time), 592 doubles (19th all time), 160 more walks than strikeouts over 17 seasons.




AB R H HR RBI SB AVG OBP SLG 2B BB K

MLB Career Stats 7962 1401 2519 369 1406 37 .316 .414 .539 592 1335 1175

Mariano Rivera is a unanimous, first ballot, Hall of Famer. No doubt.

RS

Same way here. I grew up a Yankee fan, and Mantle was the big star. Had he been healthy, there is no doubt would have set several records.

By all accounts, one of the best to ever play the game. He was screwed big time by the powers to be in baseball, so they could protect the owners.

He broke baseball's cardinal sin.........Though shalt not bet on the game.

He did it, admitted he did, and for years showed little remorse, being the azzhole that he is. I have no sympathy for Rose, even though he was one of the best to ever play the game.

He got Mr. Splitty working.

No brainer.

These guys...hell no! All juicers...

Bonds
Clemens
Sosa
McGuire

I still admire MM. He never dogged it and always hustled.

Definitely the bottom four. Pete Rose being left out is one of the stupidest things ever. How can anybody justify baseball's all-time leader in Hits being left out. Shoeless Joe too.

I know of at least one cheater in the HOF. Gaylord Perry, who won 314 games and was known to throw the spitter.

Or was it the cream and the clear?

I get that, but as a fan I want Rose in, he is a player from our era, and I want all the great players of my era represented. Don’t care about Rose, ya he was slimy, but he is a great player of our era, I want our era represented for future fans. Everything he did on the field was legit..unlike Bonds and Macguire.

Roger Maris before any of those listed. After that, I would begin to give consideration to others.

When Maris was traded to the Cardinals, he choked up on the bat, and raised his batting average.

He played a good right field, and Gussie Bush rewarded Maris with a Budweiser distributorship in Florida.

Roger Maris died young though, always a shame.

I like Maris, but lifetime .260 and and 275 homeruns is a good player, not great.
I think that is the problem with the HOF, too many good players, should be reserved for the great players.

Why is it so hard to just follow the fuggin' rules? Every game has them. They also have penalties if you break them. Pretty simple flow chart if you ask me.

Roger Maris is in the Hall because of his single season homerun record, and he was a Yankee during the golden era. Every kid, who ever played backyard Wiffle Ball, or sandlot pickup games during the early 60s has claimed dibs on being Roger Maris.

Gary Sheffield definitely belongs in. His numbers are better than many that are already in. I wouldn't doubt if he juiced right along with the others of his era. His numbers weren't nearly as gaudy, so he flew under the roid radar.

Those in the group that used chemical enhancement, are a tough call. Sosa isn't. He doesn't belong because, Michael Jackson.

[img]https://nyppagesix.files.wordpress.com/2018/06/sammy-sosa.jpg?quality=90&strip=all[/img]

Two MVPs.

Pete Rose deserves to be in.





But, he is the man who signed an agreement to be banned from
baseball so that his gambling on baseball would be hidden.

Sorry Pete,
That was your decision. (Well, actually, two decisions)

For conversation: Steelers of the 70's and most other NFL teams of that time were dripping roids in the locker room, and a lot of them are in the HOF.

Addition: IMO there should be certain stats that should allow one to walk in without a vote. You hit 500 homers or win 300 games and you automatically are in.

Because almost no one else follows them.

Besides, don't you want to know what the human body is capable of? PEDs for athletic or combat performance is one of the few non-degenerate uses of drugs.

Maris = Hall of Very Good

Mariano Rivera got in with 100% of available votes. First unanimous choice ever!

McGriff possibly. Better than Baines, who I like but likely should not be in the Hall

None of the second 4

Pete Rose NOT in the Hall is a joke

You might disagree. You might be right 😉

Mostly agree with the above

Interesting you mentioned McGriff . Saw an analysis few years ago compared McGriff to Bonds. Point of the article was how Bonds performance actually trended up when 99% of athletes start to decline due to age.

Then the guy applied the SAME trend to McGriff’s numbers. Suddenly Fred was right there with Bonds in HR,RBI,BA.... obviously McGriff didn’t match up on stolen bases...

Bonds is a prize a$$ ....but that’s not why he should not be in the Hall

Fugg Bonds & McGuire

True BUT it will keep you on the field longer, it will lessen your injuries and help you heal quicker, getting you back out there sooner.

And it will improve your performance,especially strength wise.

Bonds, McGuire and Sosa took it for a reason

Just for [bleep] and giggles check out Arod right back to high school.....

Canseco outs Aroid in his books big time.

OTOH, I think Jr. Griffey was clean.

Nice to see Edgar get in. Could be debated but he flat out hit and his numbers show

Had some bad luck, being an average 3rd baseman, defensively. Also had someone ahead of him . Probably should have been in the Show 2-3 years quicker

Yes I think the Kid was clean too.

And yes, the owners knew, including Selig , and ignored the whole issue until forced

Biggest joke in the Hall - Larussa

They already knew hot to hit, that was a given. The drugs enabled them to do take it to another level.

Here is an excerpt of what PEDS will help you do


McGriff’s Home Run Totals vs. his peers
86-94 95-on Career total
McGriff 262 231 (95-04) 493
Bonds 259 503 (95-07) 762
McGwire 238 345 (95-01) 583

McGriff 1991 Topps Traded
Palmeiro 155 414 (95-05) 569

McGriff’s AB per HR vs. his peers

86-94 95-on Career total
McGriff 15.2 20.7 (95-04) 17.8
Bonds 17.4 10.6 (95-07) 12.9
McGwire 14.0 8.2 (95-01) 10.6
Palmeiro 27.8 14.9 (95-05) 18.4

Puts it in perspective a bit, I think

For example if Bonds declines from 95 onwards knock 250 HR off ; McGuire 150 to 170 less

Added: can not seem to make the ab per HR line up

You think? Really? Griffey is as clean as them come. If only he could have stayed healthy. He would have been the greatest to ever play the game.

No one is saying different Battue. However you can't take an average or below average hitter and juice him to get him to their level of performance.

Which is just what he said

He was magic. It was a treat to watch the sports every evening just to see what he did that day . On both sides of the ball

Yes I think he was. I quit speaking in absolute since I found out about the tooth fairy 😉 so I didn’t say “ I know “

Agreed on the injuries. Would have been great to see what he might have done

Mantle, who played in tremendous pain the majority of his career , probably would have rewritten a few records too.

Being an [bleep], betting and even roid use...wtf is the Hall of Fame for? Being a good guy? It is about being the best of the best in baseball. The last four should be in, unquestionably. Pete Rose owns the all-time hit record. Roger Maris owned the single-season HR record for years. It's a given both should be HOF'ers. I get that using roids is a no-no, but if somebody did, for long enough that it substantially affected their stats, then it's on the baseball officials. Same with spitballs, etc.

Better knees and less booze and MM would have been the first to 715.

Here's yesterday's voting. Shocked Billy Wagner didn't get more votes. 400 saves as a lefty? Come on!

Andrew Jones' career ended about 3 good years short. Came up when he as 18 or 19 and flung himself all over the field. He was the best CF ever. Willie Mays once said so. Amazing to see. I hope he'll get better consideration next year.

Sosa is NOT getting any love, that's for sure.

Mariano Rivera: 425 votes (100%) -- 1st year on ballot
Roy Halladay: 363 (85.4%) -- 1st
Edgar Martinez: 363 (85.4%) -- 10th
Mike Mussina: 326 (76.7%) -- 6th
Curt Schilling: 259 (60.9%) -- 6th
Roger Clemens: 253 (59.5%) -- 7th
Barry Bonds: 251 (59.1%) -- 7th
Larry Walker: 232 (54.6%) -- 9th
Omar Vizquel: 182 (42.8%) -- 2nd
Fred McGriff: 169 (39.8%) -- 10th
Manny Ramirez: 97 (22.8%) -- 3rd
Jeff Kent: 77 (18.1%) -- 6th
Billy Wagner: 71 (16.7%) -- 4th
Todd Helton: 70 (16.5%) -- 1st
Scott Rolen: 73 (17.2%) -- 2nd
Gary Sheffield: 58 (13.6%) -- 5th
Andy Pettitte: 42 (9.9%) -- 1st
Sammy Sosa: 36 (8.5%) -- 7th
Andruw Jones: 32 (7.5%) -- 2nd

Because he was the best relief pitcher EVER.

I very well remember the 1961 season, the M&M boys....Mantle and Maris, and how badly I wanted Mickey to win the home run title. Roger Maris was a very good player over a handful of seasons, just not enough to get him into the HOF. Although, it can probably be argued that he was better than some who made it.

I am ambivalent about DH's getting in. Their careers are undoubtedly prolonged by not having to play defense and it is often longevity that determines if one is Hall-worthy or not. Oh, Martinez could rake, no doubt about it; but what would his numbers have been if he'd been on the field? And how about the guys from pre-DH era whose careers were curtailed because injuries kept them from playing in the field? There were probably a bunch of guys who could have put up big numbers if the DH position had been in existence back in their day.

How many thousands of drought stories are there in sports? Droughts are commonplace, and certainly no proof of steroid use. Not saying Clemens didn't use. Many did. Just saying a drought, and recovery from thereof, is not proof of steroid use.

Palmeiro really was a dumbass.

Absolutely