https://reformed.org/definitions/index.html?mainframe=/definitions/knowledge_of_god_inate_2.html

God exists.

NO

I believe in God, I don’t see how a person could not!

It's God's desire that NO man be lost into hell. He gave every last one of us the choice of heaven or hell and he gave us all the knowledge that he exists so we can make the choice. Closing your eyes seems to be the prevalent choice. At the last judgement not a single person will be able to stand in front of him and say he never knew.

Once a year or so, Michael Savage says something that makes sense to me. Don't know exactly how he said it, but said our faith in God is what separates us from animals, and without it we are just like wild dogs in the street. Something like that.

That's about the dumbest god damn thing I've ever read.

The book "The case for miracles" should convince anyone who is not dogmatically against God. Like Jesus says, "If they don't listen to Moses and the Prophets they won't be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."

I've known a lot of atheists over the years. I'd say that there may be an innate sense of the Divine, but there are a lot of folks out there who are suffering from acute spiritual constipation, divine tone-deafness, and aggravated color-blindness to the Almighty.

I think the choice comes down to believing in God or believing that a billion, billion accidents created a universe that works in harmony. I choose to believe in God.

Thanks for this Jag, on the phone this morning and really want to read this on a full screen. Even in the light of contrary evidence, I believe man the superior thinking inhabitant of this ball of mud. I believe that a gift from God gives us a conscious, a conscious allows us to determine right from wrong, and that enlightenment verifies the existence of our heavenly Father. I also know that when your ass is on the line a quick to the point prayer has come thru for me.

It made sense to me. Just got me thinking about morals. The animals on the street beating guys up for their wallets, the shooters, all the sick fks need something in their lives. Either Jesus, or Buddha, just something.

Religion was created by man to control men's minds.

The fact is this - no one on this planet knows if there is, or isn't a God. You can believe anything you want, but you do not know, and it is frankly, absurd, to claim you do know.

Nevertheless, even a nitwit from Texass could stare up into the sky on a clear moonless night, and contemplate all of the matter, physics, and incomprehensible vastness of the Universe, and deduce that it did NOT just flash into existence one day, from absolutely nothing, in the middle of a void that did not previously exist, just because it wanted to.

My guess is that whatever actually did precede what we know as the Universe and our existence is so far beyond human comprehension that it will make all racist Bible thumpers quake like little girls if they are ever faced with it.

Meanwhile, back on Earth...

Ever since Og, people have witnessed things that they could not explain. Mankind seems to be hardwired to explain things, and so to create an explanation, they created gods and other invisible forces. Belief in gods and the religions to contact those gods has been passed down generation to generation ever since.

But no two gods and no two religions are alike - many of them in fact being polar opposite - and yet every believer swears his religion and his god are the only correct ones. It's insanity.

Man created gods, not the other way around.

I don't like Mike Savage because of his delivery, and the fact that he will not use honest debate to destroy his opponents argument, but just resorts to dis-allowing them from speaking. He was doing what the Dem/Comms are doing now, but Savage was doing it years ago.

Logical methodical destruction of their arguments, step by step and point by point is effective in education others. Being a proud jerk is not.

But on that point he's correct, and the fact is the godless of today (as with the godless of any age) DO act like dogs in the streets, but without as much honor.

They are 100% Evil.
Honesty and integrity mean nothing to them. Lying--- and then lying about their previous lying ,goes on and on. NO scene of guilt is ever attached to it. We have a few here on the fire who do it all the time, and don't seem to remember what they write is IN PRINT and their lies can be brought back for all the world to see. It doesn't effect them at all.

The best of men are men.......at best. So the very honest, the very conservative and the dedicated Christians among us are still less then perfect,----------often by a large measure.

But the worst of men are "sub-animal". And far too common.

In that, I mean I can see a dedication to true EVIL in men and women (mostly those who call themselves Socialists, Democrats, and often Muslims ) that is far below anything we see in the animal world. Even the worst of the parasites.

These sub-animals have an intelligence to do evil, design evil ,and engineer evil ---- without ever coming to the realization that the ship they are trying to destroy is the one they are sailing on.

Their evil is so consuming they are convinced that even if their efforts destroy their own future it's "worth it" if they can kill those they hate. Even (or especially) when that hate is based on NO truth and NO facts at all.

The only animals that do something similar are parasites, who will suck the life from their host organism eventually killing the thing that keeps them alive. But at least we can give one thing to a parasite, it has no ability to hear an explanation as to why doing what they do will kill them too, and also, as in the case of a round worm or a tick, -------------------- they have no other option.

Not so with Dem/Comms and Muslims, or those who are simply to proud/stupid it admit the obvious truth when the truth is more obvious then the sunrise.

We have all met a few. Those that would rather be wrong publicly 100,000 times with HUGE numbers of people seeing them as wrong, then admit to being wrong even once.

So the most evil of men are in my opinion, lower then ticks and round worms.
They are without excuse.

And that admission of REALLY being wrong, is the one thing that is so different between most men and a real Christian. A real Christian had to come to some point in his or her life that they realized they were wrong and needed to be saved from the consequences of that wrong doing. They know it's too late for them to do anything for themselves and need to be saved because we CAN'T save ourselves.
That takes a foundation of humility. Not an act, but from the fact we get humbled to a point of desperation. That point of knowing it's far to bad for us to save ourselves is when we come to God as we really are and KNOW what we really are.
THAT prayer He will hear and have respect for.

Christians are NOT better then other men.

But because of Humility before God, they are FAR better off.

Karl do you not find it slightly pretentious to declare you possess the knowledge of what information the other 7 billion people do or do not have?

Yes, as in that all mankind had believed in some sort of religion. All looking to make sense of what they see around them.
Different “Gods” have had different answers to that quest. I remain agnostic and believe that “God” by definition is beyond our pay grade.

Do you think having a god made natives of Africa less animalistic in the 17th century?

They may have been screaming "ooga-booga" while praying to a mystical tree but that hardly makes them civilized.

Have you seen any of them prove existence of a god?

What if they listen to the angel Moroni?

Did you forget to switch names?

I'd find it hard to argue with this.

Sure! All the time. The only one they need to prove things like that to is themselves.

But for the hard headed/hearted atheists, proving God to them would be much like proving Trumps a good President to the MSM or demoncrap Congress.

Atheists and lieberal demoncraps have a lot in common: they are both willfully wrong about the most important of matters.

Thanks for the link I do love me some Charles Hodge I’ll read it all.

The answer to the question has been posed by Jordan Peterson recently in his debates with Sam Harris, a famous “new atheist”. Peterson isn’t a Christian and is a rather avowed evolutionist who answers this in a rather novel if slippery way. Anyone genuinely interested can search their debates on YouTube. Good stuff.

So you're in for a yes, God is inane?

Why? Because you feel the same way?

I agree it would likely be futile.

People are very hard pressed to change their minds about things they believe they have a superior opinion about.

Consider lieberals and conservatives. God or godless is even thinner ice.

Yes, that is the way I see it.

Man is curious by nature, and very imaginative. Old Og was sitting outside the cave by the campfire with all his little oglets when one of them asked about all the pretty lights in the sky. And Old Og made up a story, because just like any modern man, he did not wish to admit he did not know.

The story grew over time, and some men learned they could use the story to control other men, gain access to the loins of the prettiest maidens, and extort money and food from the populace. And the priesthood was born.

As to the dissertation in the link, it is a bunch of gobbledygook. Nonsense disguised as scientific extrapolation. One might well be stupider from having read it.

Those 7-billion people all have DIFFERENT, often opposing, BELIEFS, in what God is, and they all swear their's is the Genuine deal (I know you will miss the point because it will fracture your fragile enclosure).

Imagine that. 7+ billion people and no two alike in their beliefs. You must stay awfully busy keeping track of what 7+ billion people think. How do you do it?

Perhaps not a god but in the transcendent. See early Greek philosophers, Socratese, Plato, etc.

God tells me.

It's no different than a candle in the wind. Without protection, they are both snuffed out. Because a person doesn't believe is usually due to the wind...

Philosophy - favorite subject in college.

Here is a GREAT way to promote a belief in your version of God - condemn, insult, and berate anyone that disagrees or challenges your belief - I read that in The Bible somewhere.

Remarkable Karl, page two you declare no one knows if there is a God, by page 4 you have a direct line to God. What is it you're attempting to accomplish?

Illustrating how flawed your beliefs are.

to the extent an individual can believe in god, it simplifies things as long as one is content in not asking too many questions.

without a god, the universe is really difficult to explain. came from a tiny point, and exploded? really?

on the other hand, don't dare ask where god came from, nor when.

the new agers around here thinks it's a collective dream.

we'll be back into the hinduism real quick.

for them god always was.

Not at all.

I see. You felt the best method of exposing my flawed thinking was for you to display a complete lack of rational logic. Has this methodology previously been effective?

You are fishing for irrelevant crumbs upon which to validate yourself.

At some point one wonders how the universe, in its elegant sophistication came to be, since it appears to be proceeding through time. Then one realizes, he nor any man created it. Further, he even realizes he is LOCKED out of the creation process, because he cannot create from nothing, anything. Not an electron or a photon, nor can he even destroy them. Then he comes to the conclusion that there is a more powerful, more knowing one than himself. That's God and that is NOT irrational. I believe.

By lying. Are you 70 Karl?

Karl I'm going to accept your self assessment of you're being an irrelevant crumb, however there was no fishing. Should you ever become uncomfortable with the red nose and big shoes please feel welcome to take them off and attempt some form of contribution of substance. Til then....

once we get the god issue squared away, we'll be forced to deal w/the debil issue.

more folks than don't have no belief in der debil.

could god function w/o a debil backing him?

would humans invent a debil if not one?

if all the demons were slain, would god's universe improve?

I see evidence of God every day.......

Psalm 19 (NIV)

1
The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3
They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4
Yet their voice[b] goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.

Amen!

what is the best interpretation for a tent being pitched for the sun? not cloud cover, right? so, what could the psalms writer being referring?

not a boat carrying the sun, that'd be a stretch to make that connection. i'm confused, which is often the case so no need for worry.

All I know is that My God is the Real God, and unless you agree with me, you're going to burn for eternity in Hell.

Get it?

You'd be better to quit while your behind.

How can any rational person claim to Know God, and hate darkies and wetbacks?

You're

Are you Jag?

Quoting scripture to support your belief would be indicative of a LEARNED belief, not an INNATE belief you stupid fugk.

Can you answer that question?

i don't think so. but it could be one of eyeball's distant liberal cousins who grew up just down the road from eyeball and attended the same schools pretty much.

Some of the boys here that can't stand having their narrow beliefs challenged are trying to get me banned - if that happens, I'll still be able to read your excellent posts!

Keep up the great work!

Thank you!

Get off my crank.

It would seem "karl" has a high degree of comfort being the behind.

Read this, and while reading pay special attention to how Jesus responded to temptations from Satan. He resonded by quoting scripture. Now who's the stupid one ?(as if we didn't already know).


Luke 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
Satan Tempts Jesus

4 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit [a]into the wilderness, 2 being [b]tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.

3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”

4 But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, [c]but by every word of God.’ ”

5 [d]Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”

8 And Jesus answered and said to him, [e]“Get behind Me, Satan! [f]For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”

9 Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

‘He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you,’

11 and,

‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”

12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said, ‘You shall not [g]tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

13 Now when the devil had ended every [h]temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.

You're going to hell, bro!

Deflave’s sock puppet revealed at last.

I thought you had me on ignore?

If Jesus was led into the wilderness for 40-days, who went with him to record the events of the 40-days?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


THIS

He forgot to change accounts a few pages back.

Fear of the unknown is innate.

Belief in a god helps many to fill that void.

I only have one account, unless you are referring to someone else?

Anyone that starts a religion thread on an internet forum such as this one, is trolling for arguments.

I'm just giving them what they wanted in the first place.

Yep.

just thinking from a commercial mind-set or marketing view, what if we had a tv contest.

the religious group with the best, biggest, most lavish church, temple, synagogue, etc. wins?

plus points for those worship centers that has the greatest weight in gold attached therein.

i tell ya right now, the hindu temples are going to be in a competitive position for the title.

of course the gates would be open for any and all to compete. seating capacity might be a factor?

how about the total height of the steeple, if any? or the vaults and catecombs underneath?

other factors to consider: greatest number of burial vaults or no. of skulls piled up?

it'd be a tough fought competition. each side with it's proponents cheering them on.

what should the grand prize be? and for second and third place?

we'd have to attract a top quality MC to manage the competition.

C'mon, get real. Is your argument for me pissing you off in a stupid internet forum really that I have more than one account?

I have only one login here.

Anyone want to make things interesting I’m sure Rick could help out.

Wagers?

Argue all you want. Quote any man-written set of myths you like. You still have done nothing more than create a god in your own image, according to your own preferences. You're exactly the same as Og.

I'll say this: if there is a god who controls every last atom and every last thing that happens, he is one sadistic, cynical, capricious, and fickle S.O.B. He murders, cripples, starves, and tortures millions of us every day. Loving god my ass.

Question for all of you who believe in heaven: Are there only humans in your heaven, or do the UFO aliens go there also? How about all the other innumerable beings in the universe? Do you have to mingle with them, or is there a separate heavenly slum set aside for humans? Or perhaps one for only white humans?

One of your most clueless posts to date, and that's saying something.

Are we arguing about natural revelation and the conscience?

Counter it with something other than mere belief.

Reverend Raider all knowing...

There is no way that any God could just sit there and watch all of the injustice that happens on this Earth and do absolutely nothing to stop it - only Man could dream up something so absurd.

Not sure if folks think I am deflake with a different account or he is me with a different account, but I only have one account and would not bother wasting my time juggling two accounts just to intellectually accost you bozos.

we all know that god & especially his followers support the concept of yoga pants.

otherwise, he'd never have allowed their invention. he's meticulous about that.

but we all know that when the number of earthquakes increase, it's not good.

i believe jaguar man in his honesty is trying to tell us something, but what?

Knowing anything at all on the subject is much more than you or your minions know, quite obviously.

Paul
Romans 1
No excuse

I'll take you here.....

crack open a cold beer.....we leave......

then you tell me there is no God.....

Rocky-, you raise “the problem with evil,” probably the most common for cynicism regarding the God of Christianity. It’s a great enough problem that many have written about it, including CS Lewis and more recently Tim Keller. It’s undoubtedly a hard knot to cut through.

Wager (no, not Pascal’s) to all posters taking the opposing view here and who kept it pretty civil: read through the Bible beginning with John in the next six months. I would recommend Biblehub.com (free) and you can read any one of about 20 commentaries in parallel with any scripture. Then when you get in my neck of the woods, I will host. Regardless of stripe. ‘Course I would do that anyway. 🙂

Mt good friend Antelope Sniper hasn’t checked in here yet, but I imagine he will shortly. 😉

Jeezus ain't real.

Hint...............

Learning about God is not the same as creating a god. For one there are things I would have done differently. Probably wrongly but differently.

#2 is a little fatuous. So maybe He made the rules and set things in motion? Then there are all the physical constants that came out of the big bang just right. Like the universal gravitational constant that controls the expansion of the universe. Of course you could say that's a statistical probability. But th odds of getting it just right by chance approach infinity. And you know what that means. No, doesn't prove anything but you have to confront the matter.

Heaven is logically not comprehensible beyond it's the plac to be. So who knows? Personally , like Will Rogers, I'm more concerned with where dogs go than aliens.

Heaven is logically not comprehensible beyond it's the plac to be. So who knows? Personally , like Will Rogers, I'm more concerned with where dogs go than aliens. [/quote]

in all likelihood the dogs, humans, and extraterrestrials aren't all that different if in fact we all came from the big bang.

there'd be that singularity, that commonality, that duality.

what was, and what wasn't.

what is, and what isn't.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse."

That pretty much defines "innate". No man has any excuse not to accept that there is God.

And like it or not, every man will give an account for what he believes and what he has done. That will be a pitiful day for a very great many who have no faith in Jesus. But a very wonderful day for those of us who believe, whose faults/sins are removed by Him as far as east is from west.

not to create dissonance amongst the rank & file, but we are inmates.

we work & pay taxes or not.

we worship whatever.

or no worship.

freedom?

Sounds a lot like .................. Flave

well sort of, but not for certain.

i'm eating a bit of carnista, from kroger.

with cheese, and a bit of lettuce greens.

e.coli, salmonella, and listeria, etc. are not good.

..i've heard that lyme disease is on the increase?

Learning about god is like learning about Santa. Santa knows when you've been bad or good, brings us gifts, is seemingly immortal, performs miracles, and is taught to children as real. Sounds a whole lot like god, eh? Santa is a construct, a manufactured entity in whom some people believe deeply because their parents told them to believe in him. So is god.

Your Bible is a well-written book, for sure. But it is nothing more than a collection of oral stories and myths - and not a complete one at that because large parts of it were voted out by church rulers. None of it was written down at all until about the year 600, six centuries after this Jesus guy was alleged to have been around and many more centuries after the earliest tales it contains. You know how oral stories change and get embellished when they are retold over and over? That's true of biblical stories, too. Then it was imperfectly translated into language after language, revised, edited, and issued in several versions. Every word literally true? Ha! Use the Bible to prove the truth of god and then use "it's the word of god" to prove the truth of the Bible? That's the worst kind of circular logic.

tikkanut, my friend, I'd be delighted to share a beer and our Utah scenery with you any time. However, we can't say it's there because of a god. It's there - and that's all we can say.

It's called free will which God gave to everybody. Can any of you prove that there is not a God?

Note the astounding arrogance of the religious infected. We, the filthy unbelievers, can NOT lead a moral life, we can't possibly love our fellow man, we can NOT adhere to the golden rule, we can't possibly be compassionate citizens of this earthly orb. They proselytize at our very doorstep, peddling their arrogance of superior knowledge. The believers must truly be superior beings. They tell us this, shouted from the rooftops, ad nauseum.

The golden rule exist even today.

Same ole tired drivel....

Juvenile insults..... TX / Texans suck...... Religion sucks.... blah blah blah
Next he’ll tell us the Bears are great & Mike Ditka is god.
April Fools day again or Groundhog Day ?

I believe that Scripture provides the answers we need to live a life of faith in God through the finished work of Christ and by the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s all it’s for.

It doesn’t address aliens but I suppose someday by the grace of God I’ll find out.

As for your middle paragraph you’ve proven your innate knowledge of God therein. You called upon transcendent, objective right & wrong there. If everything “just is” there can be no such standard; just what is. One cannot logically jump from what is to what ought to be without that objective a-priori standard which undergirds all existence.

Yes.

You are super bright.

Just on Logic it strikes me: Does that perforce make it wrong?

It is a battle against the good and evil....darn right there will be millions of casualties.

People believe what they want to believe.

Muslims
Liberals, and
Scripture-quoters.

Same logic.

The existence of god and religion are two different concepts. One can exist without the other, but not the reverse.

Seems like on the fire,
DoG only exists
To serve white baptists

I have read stories of the stress of survival of native Americans before being appraised of the good news who supposedly prayed to the great spirit for sustinance over the winter.

If there were not an innate knowledge of a supreme being, how would every major society and civilization on earth have come up with some idea of a future and hereafter.

Many would say because the Hindus and Chinese and other societies had different objects of worship that would prove there was no God.

I would say each society had innate feelings there was a supreme being. Not having the Written Word of the Good News they tried their best to try and connect with this supreme being in their own way by trying to figure out the truth in their on sesrching manner, from worshipping the sun or moon or cows or golden idols.

After Jesus brought the good news the truth was revealed. Unfortunately many societies over the world had built their god in their own way and were more comfortable with their choice.

The sun and star worshippers bit the dust but the cow, pope and moon worshipping muzzies are still hard at it.

Jag, It is accepted fact that any society eventually invents gods of some nature. The mechanics of such have been discussed.

But just because men invent gods, by no means can be considered proof that God invented man.

It was man searching for a truth they new existed in the dark before the truth was brought to mankind by Jesus Christ.

T

Rocky, my friend, there is a good deal here that is just in error.

Man is not curious by nature. Man was given a mind by God. Animals dont have it. Men searched from whence it came, just as you do when you come home from work and there is an unexpected package left on your porch by UPS.

You dont know what you got but you know you got something and you know you got it from somewhere.

I rarely comment on these type post but he we go. I believe in God because I have had an experience and a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. I'm not gonna be a ass to a man that doesn't believe because he hasn't had the same experience as me. Hard to convince someone who has been healed in the name of Jesus that there is no God. That being said I'm not a church goer on a regular basis, I believe the church needs to look at it's self it's either so corrupt it's sickening or its so legalistic they forgot about mercy grace and love, crossing all their religious T's and dotting all their religious I's but treating their neighbors like [bleep].

Jag, This is attempting to justify a preconceived belief.

Primitive societies, and even a lot of members of not so primitive societies look for answers to the mysteries of the universe.

When the science is not yet available to answer their questions, people invent imaginative myths.


The Mayans, the Incas, the Aztec, the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, the Druids, the various Pacific Islanders, the Mongels, the Far East Islanders, the Hebrews, etc, etc, etc, all invented various mythologies to explain the mysteries around them. Some of those mythologies proved to be somewhat malignant to their practitioners and have pretty much fallen by the wayside.

Some of those mythologies have actually proven beneficial toward enforcing healthy practices in the tribe and very good at enriching the priesthood. Those myths have become particularly enduring.

Does any person ever have any knowledge of any myth without learning it from parents and peers? I believe absolutely not!

But the only way to know would be the "forbidden experiment". One would have to somehow isolate a group of babies and have them mature in a fully feral state to find out. First: how would one keep them alive until they could feed themselves without contaminating their environment? And second: Who in their right mind would sacrifice an innocent child to such an existence? and third: how could anyone communicate with them after they grew up?

I believe any knowledge of any god comes only from education. You apparently believe otherwise. Since there is absolutely no way to gather empirical evidence to support either belief, the only way to find out would be to die.

I am comfortable in my belief that even that will answer no questions.

Do dogs go to heaven?...ie; can they get their without faith and receiving Holy Spirit ?

Some say a place where they spend eternity with relatives . but not their dog, sounds a lot more
like hell than heaven..



Dogs dream, and dreams are a subconscious function of the mind...From that one would gather
that anything with a subconscious mind also has a conscious mind.

I think this comment is obviously contradictory. Why is man searching, except that he is curious by nature. But that is a minor point of little importance in this discussion.

I would ask though, when did God give Man this wonderful thing we refer to as a mind?

Did Homo Erectus have such a mind? Cro Magnon man? Neanderthal? The earliest Homo Sapiens? How about Homo Sapien/Neanderthal 50/50 hybrids?

Their hypocrisy is infinite.

Man is rather creative in his imagination be it due to desperation, boredem, subterfuge, etc

just look at how Gods multiplied and evolved over millennia.

it went from local Gods in our earthly global sphere physical world, to Gods in the outer distant heavenly bodies
and then beyond.

Terms used in Greek pagan mythology we can find used in Bible..why would a monotheistic God find need to do that..?

Pure nonsense. Most of the NT writers were contemporaries of Jesus, whether they met him face to face or not. The last book written, Revelation, is believed to have been written by 95AD. There are a few books where the author is unknown but the writings were completed by the end of the 1st century. The Bible wasn't assembled in it's current form for another couple hundred years, but that's irrelevant to when it was actually written.

For comparison, consider Plato's Republic. Very few will debate its authenticity but the earliest copy known is dated 1300 years after Plato wrote it. There are only 7 know copies of it. By contrast, every book of the Bible has thousands of copies, many dated within a few years of the original. When copies are compared, there is almost no difference in them. There have been translation errors, but most modern versions are translated from the earliest Greek manuscripts available. Some versions of the Bible are translations of translations but the most popular versions were translated directly from the Greek. There have been a few cases where scribes who copied manuscripts made notes of their own in the margins and they got picked up in error by translators. They have been eliminated as they're discovered.

Man, you and me sure are smart, RC.

Great post and thanks for it.

Because it's quite logical. We can now explain a lot of things that used to be attributed to God, like thunder,lightning, earthquakes etc. It stands to reason then that there are probably still many things we can't yet explain that perhaps one day we will, but right now many would still say it's an act of God.

That said, do I believe in God? Yes, I do. Is it innate? I don't know, I was raised to believe in God so my views on it will be biased. I think that whatever ideas I have on God are probably pretty heavily flawed, but I think the same could be said for everyone. I'm not here to argue or try to change minds, it's just a topic I have always found very interesting but very hard to have a conversation about because the vast majority of people either have their belief set and will not consider anything else, or don't believe at all and therefore don't deem it worthy of discussion.

I think youre a liar.

That may very well be true and a real problem on this earth.

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Bible says earthquakes are an expression of Gods anger and wrath.

How many christians actually still believe that?

Ever heard of Sodom & Gomorra ?

Good thread.

Who hates darkies and wetbacks? Are you insane? I just dont want them fughking your daughter. Do you want them fughking your daughter?

Hahahaha. You are too cool for school, Gus.

Yes, and science has now identified the meteor (super bolide) which exploded in the sky over the cities that fateful night. An event which happens in greater or lesser proportions every few years. About once every 200 years we get one that explodes with about one megaton of force.

And like modern Democrats, the Priests of that era were not about to let a useful tragedy go to waste.

Fixt.,

G Washington and Trump would disagree. Washington chopped down the cherry tree and Trump became Gods emissary.

Liar. Youre just too gutless to jump off a tall building.

Amen. Some are too gutless too risk their love of unbelief against the prophesys fullfilled and enumerated in the Bible for fear their feelings may be proven suspect.

Men are liars and RR is just another. "Their enemies will try to push them into the sea". "Good will become evil and evil good".

God has made himself known to ALL men. Some chose to reject it. What, you say he hasn't made himself known to you? You've read this thread haven't you? His message is here if you choose to believe it. You refuse at your own peril. It just might be the last chance you get to accept it and the penalty for being wrong is severe.

Who made the meteor? Who parted the Red Sea? Who stuck an Ark on a mountain?

I'm not going to read all 14 pages, but as stated in the Romans 1 passage referenced in the CRTA link, yes a degree of knowledge of God is innate. Unhappily rebellion against Him is also innate.

I'm not going to read through all this, but it's been proven that one is not born with knowledge of God.

Those who don't believe in Jesus Christ as Lord will have a long, long time to consider the foolishness of their unbelief. Oh, and they'll be thirsty. With no hope of relief. Sad.

well here is a supposed devote Christians recently expressed view regarding the value of 'beliefs' .. even touted himself as being someone
who knows the 'truth' ..and offers to help those who he calls d*cks and perceives as lesser people than himself....such is the delusional elitist
mindset of transgressors who claim to be members of the church.

[-quote=TF49]

It does not matter what YOU think or believe.

[-quote]







the common thing we still see among even just christians is the one-upmanship game they like to play against other christians.

of course such peabrain behavior had already beset and plagued Christianity well before Emperor Constantine stepped in
to try and sort out the mess and instability their bickering and rivalry had created in society...if just left to their own devices
Constantine could see the havoc they were going to create.




FAITH is not an evidence based concept.

if you had faith you would get GOD to stop an intruder in your home instead of reaching for a GLOCK.

I've got this friend. We're not all that close anymore. However, we still follow each other on Facebook.

Dave is about 5 years younger than me. He lives in a very different world. Dave is an Atheist. Dave believes in Socialism. Dave is doing everything he can to make up for the Original Sin of being American and White, and Male. He monitors his house for excess power consumption. He drives to work at 5 MPH under the speed limit to help spare the planet from excessive C02 emissions.

Two things stand out from our long years together-- two statements he made at various times.

1) I don't like the idea that we should be happy. Nobody deserves to be happy. The best we should hope for is to be contented.

2) I envy guys like you who can envision a God and see meaning in the world. I'd like to have that kind of optimism. I don't.

In the latter statement, I responded with an offer to help. Dave said he didn't want to bother. It wasn't worth the effort.


I've said several times on this august forum: God is a joke. This isn't blasphemy; I'm just saying that belief in God is like a joke. You either get it or you don't. Explaining it is not going to help.

No guff!

No, it isn't.

How very Christian of you - jack wagon.

You have the emotional development of a 12-yr old.

Some would say Loki was doing so to fool you all........

The point I was trying to make was missed.

Let me offer it this way: which is most important, what you believe about God or what He believes/sees/knows about you?

The scripture that makes the point is Matthew 7:23......

Only those that do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven..... for a review of the will of the Father, see the two greatest commandments.

Anyway, Jesus says “......I never knew you. Away from me......”

A relationship with Jesus is crucial. What you believe about God is less important than what God sees in you. Do you have a relationship with Jesus?

Being IN the Body of Christ is paramount. Once “ in,” what you, as an imperfect man on earth may believe about God is simply your beliefs... some may be error and some may not.

Control.

Oh, and I don’t recall having called anybody a “dick”

For those of you in the know—what is Original Sin?
In my youth I heard the Catholics saying all the time that I needed saving from my Original Sin.
Is Original Sin— Sex? I heard that in a movie once. Something to do about a guy named Spokes.

Is belief in God innate? I asked nate and he said, "Damn right."


Sorry, wasn't gonna post that but saw deflave's post and lost control

It means you were born with a natural tendency to sin.

We are all sinners, Christ was the only perfect person, yada, yada.

He never said He actively controls evrrything, though He has that ability.

Man rejected Him for the dnake just as you are now doing and He gives you free will. Satan roams the earth to and fro causing misery and seducing Gods creation in His image away from Him as satan has done to you. Oh yes, you have everything all figured out with your genius brain, except how to build one living cell or eyelash.

Hr will return in due time, His time.

I would not confuse Col Travis with the dumbass.

The "Christians" posting in this thread are lying to themselves, and fooling no one but themselves - because they need to...

What a psychopath.

I possibly should have titled this ".....a supreme being".

Why would having morphed into a creature with a forebrain (mind) automatically result in all such groups of those animals concocting such ideas as there being a great spirit or creator or benefactor.

Or at least attempt to.

Some are wrong.

I would guess the way we were made in His image is that we have a spirit and maybe a mind to contemplate things such as this and have a conscience, as Calvin referred to.

Welcome back old Deflave

And what is your need in being here and dont say the truth. It isnt in you, as He guessed it would be.

Yes, freedom to live as we wish and then curse Him for Murphys Law.

If you can't troll any better than that piss off.

Oh but you can live and be perfect and never look on a woman with lust and never lie or anything.

Stick to what you know.

Believe me, no one here wanted another individual like you mucking up the threads.

Competition brings out the best in people - poor competition, like you, are just boring - like playing chess with a retard...

Man has a transcendent nature, he can imagine that which is not physical. Logically everything that is must have been caused by some being. And that being, having existence, must have been caused by another being. And so on. Until you get to the first being which was not caused by another. An uncaused being. And that being must be unrestricted because there is no superior being to restrict it. And that being we may call god. Or a panoply of gods and dime-gods. But interestingly the uncaused, unrestricted being must be the top dog, like Zeus.

I'm sure Aquinas wasn't the first to come up with this, it sounds very Greek for one thing, though he says it so much better.

So yes there is an innate sense of a god in the sense that innate logical thought leads us as above.

For jaguartx - Ten Bible verses, just for you!

1. Matthew 15:8 These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.

2. Isaiah 29:13 And so the Lord says, “These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.

3. James 1:26 If a person thinks that he is religious but can’t control his tongue, he is fooling himself. That person’s religion is worthless.

4 1 John 2:9 Those who say that they are in the light but hate other believers are still in the dark.

5. Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but they deny him by what they do. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit to do anything good.

6. Matthew 7:3-5 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

7. Matthew 6:1-2 Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

8. Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

9. Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

10. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Wrong. This is when they were written:
James: AD 44-49
Galatians: AD 49-50
Mark: AD 50-60
Matthew: AD 50-60
1 Thessalonians: AD 51
2 Thessalonians: AD 51-52
1 Corinthians: AD 55
2 Corinthians: AD 55-56
Romans: AD 56
Luke: AD 60-61b
Ephesians: AD 60-62
Philippians: AD 60-62
Philemon: AD 60-62
Colossians: AD 60-62
Acts: AD 62
1 Timothy: AD 62-64
Titus: AD 62-64
1 Peter: AD 64-65
2 Timothy: AD 66-67
2 Peter: AD 67-68
Hebrews: AD 67-69
Jude: AD 68-70
John: AD 80-90
1 John: AD 90-95
2 John: AD 90-95
3 John: AD 90-95
Revelation: AD 94-96
Job: Considered earliest, but date unknown
Genesis: 1445-1405 BC
Exodus: 1445-1405 BC
Leviticus: 1445-1405 BC
Numbers: 1445-1405 BC
Deuteronomy: 1445-1405 BC
Psalms: 1410-1450 BC
Joshua: 1405-1385 BC
Judges: 1043 BC
Ruth: 1030-1010 BC
Song of Songs: 971-965 BC
Proverbs: 971-686 BC
Ecclesiastes: 940-931 BC
1 Samuel: 931-722 BC
2 Samuel: 931-722 BC
Obadiah: 850-840 BC
Joel: 835-796 BC
Jonah: 775 BC
Amos: 750 BC
Hosea: 750-710 BC
Micah: 735-710 BC
Isaiah: 700-681 BC
Nahum: 650 BC
Zephaniah: 635-625 BC
Habakkuk: 615-605 BC
Ezekiel: 590-570 BC
Lamentations: 586 BC
Jeremiah: 586-570 BC
1 Kings: 561-538 BC
2 Kings: 561-538 BC
Judith*: Uncertain (538 BC-AD 70)
Daniel: 536-530 BC
Haggai: 520 BC
Baruch*: 500-100 BC
Zechariah: 480-470 BC
Ezra: 457-444 BC
1 Chronicles: 450-430 BC
2 Chronicles: 450-430 BC
Esther: 450-331 BC
Malachi: 433-424 BC
Nehemiah: 424-400 BC
Susanna*: 400 BC-AD 70
Psalm 151*: 400 BC-AD 100
Letter of Jeremiah*: 307-317 BC
Tobit*: 225-175 BC
Ben Sira (Sirach)*: 200-175 BC
Bel and the Dragon*: 200-100 BC
Greek Esther*: 200-1 BC
Prayer of Azariah*: 200-1 BC
1 Maccabees*: 150-100 BC
2 Maccabees*: 150-100 BC
1 Esdras*: 100 BC-AD 100
Prayer of Manasseh*: 100-1 BC
3 Maccabees*: 100-1 BC
4 Maccabees*: 100-1 BC
Wisdom*: 50-20 BC
2 Esdras**: AD 100-200

I've been away overnight and missed a lot of the conversation. Rather than go back over it all, I'll just summarize and drop out of the thread.

Religion is based on primitive superstitions, and all aspects of religion spring from man's own imagination. We invented all of it. Like a web of lies, religions get more and more complicated and improbable over time as they try to explain away contradictions in their own creeds. There is no one right religion because there are no right religions at all; they are all fantasy.

No one can prove there is a god. "It all had to be created by a being" is supposition, not fact. How do you know that unless you yourself are all-knowing?

I'm not all-knowing, but I can think. And I think god is an artifact of man's need to explain what he doesn't understand. And nothing more.

PROOVE it.

Good points - but, just like debating liberals, it is a lost cause...

“That which can be asserted without proof can be denied without proof”
Thus the dire warnings to the non-believers of everlasting hell-fire.

“Imagine that the sun shone at night, and the moon during the day. And then imagine that everything you knew about Jesus Christ was not true, and that the true God was a living man, with a single eye, a cloak, a wide-brimmed hat. And that this man, Odin, the all-father, knew the secret of every heart, and the destiny of all men. And that he, too, was hanged from a tree, and died and was reborn. Only, it happened a long time before christ. Before our Lord.”

i can kinda see where you're coming from with this.

the unnameable is.

Aquinas studied the Philosopher, so, it should be no surprise that his Summa sounds Aristotelian (Greek). He said that what we can comprehend as a first cause - given man's limited mind - is "what we call God." Being a Dominican Friar, Catholic Priest, and Doctor of The Church, it should be no surprise that he believed in a God - although it could be argued that he became the aforementioned because he believed in a God.

Nevertheless, no one on this planet, and no one in this thread, knows, or can know, if there is, or isn't a God. All anyone can do is believe it, or not.

Only the least of minds could endeavor to condemn another that does not comply with what they cannot know.

Near the end of his life, after experiencing an epiphany, when he was asked by his assistant to get back to work finishing his Summa Theologica, he said: "I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me," and it was left unfinished.

Make of it what you will - you can believe what you want!

Well, yes. Ultimately faith is a requirement if you believe in free will. A leap of faith. But things like Aquinas' Five Proofs narrows the gap.

sure is a lot of talk around here about something that does not exist

All Aquinas did was use intellect and logic to get to a place where he admitted that we do not, and cannot know, and he called that, God - all anyone can do is believe, if they want to.

The point being made, is that God makes himself known to every man without communication with other men.

The fact that every civilization holds a belief in some god is used as substantive evidence toward that claim.

I hold that it must be otherwise, considering the plethora of gods known around the world. A single, all knowing, all powerful God could not possibly be that inept at making himself known.

Nobody wakes up at six years old and thinks ‘Wow, I need to start paying homage to God.’

It is taught. Therefore it is not innate.

The only thing that may be considered innate is our desire to live forever and achieve power and control. That aspect of God and religion enables that. But it still has to be introduced. It is not innate.

so much of our god issues are related to our human consciousness. the crocodiles in the river don't have this dilemma to deal with.

and it's especially tied to our ego's. nobody wants to die, but everybody wants to go to heaven. not a bad idea really.

it keeps one safe, and living on into the future although they've dropped the biological side of things (i assume).

thus enter god of various kinds, types and sorts from throughout the ages from every independent group.

in no way does having a majority of people holding to a single belief make that belief anymore true.

there actually might be only one person high on a mountain that holds the only true belief.

but he's not talking with us lowly commoners. he's got better things to think & do.

a weakness is that we "need" to worship a god that allows us to control things.

"control" now there's a concept a true god can sink his teeth in with support.

No sane person wants to die, but that does not mean we can not accept the inevitable.

The point being made is that there is an innate sense of some god which is in all of us. The fact that every civilization has religious rites and practices is indeed substantive evidence of that fact.

Seems like maybe you then narrowed things down to your conception of a specific god idea to disqualify the evidence.

That’s called confirmation bias.

Not all civilizations endorse the idea of a non-earth dwelling god.

That’s a lie.

That isn’t true you’re correct but it’s not what I said either...

The God Idea comes at us from both the Outside- who then made all this?- and from the inside, when we first experience love... and guilt.

God is so much a part of us that He must be rationalized away if we are to become unbelievers..... that’s not our natural state. An intrinsic part of us wants to believe that Someone, or Something is in control . It’s as if we have an internal throne that demands an occupant.

If we don’t develop some concept of God, we install our Self on that throne. For practical applications, Self is synonymous with Satan.

Romans 1:20

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

according to the geneologists, neanderthal man once roamed europe and russia (northern asia).

they say according to their research of dna spirals, that the average/typical, not from africa, human contains about 2 percent neanderthal dna.

since evidence suggests that they buried their dead, i'm of the opinion that they had beliefs of one kind or another.

whichever god, or process that allowed homo sapiens to take over the urth, the neanderthal were ruled out as unworthy.

A rather explicit -categorical statement above^



now the backtrack, your beliefs still matter / are still important.

No wonder the Book refers to them as scatterbrain sheep,
when they try to think or reason for themselves and speak for God ,they just make further fools of themselves.

(James 1:8)
" A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways"

Nobody with any sense whatsoever would consult sheep for direction or advice or what
members of the flock like TF49 call the TRUTH,
...hence why the good shepherd is on constant standby
to guide the helpless halfwits in every single aspect of their life.

Christianity for millennia has been polluted with crack pot uppity sheep who have the delusion
that they are a guiding light with compulsion to deliver and educate the lesser others with their
own superior versions of the 'truth'.




LOL...those who cannot even recall what they themselves said just a couple weeks ago,

should not be trying to guide people on what some mysterious God allegedly said thousands of yrs ago.

chances are the persons that transferred Gods words into a Book had as terrible and unreliable
memory- recollection as you do.

Yep, cause what you just said, isnt really so. Now, i will accept as scripture has said, there is no Christ or life for you after your run here is done.

Curiosity and the desire for explanations and/or answers is innate. From this innate drive for understanding flows both religion and science.

Nope, don’t recall calling anyone a dick. I do however remember referring to you .... let’s see, what was it... I think it was a “DK kid” or something like that.

You missed the clue but since you bring it up.... it was a referral to the Dunning-Krueger syndrome.

Look it up....

That we cannot "know" a transcendent being, less restricted than we are, does not mean we cannot know of their existence or some of their properties through our intellect, which itself is as transcendent faculty. And it's the unrestricted, uncaused being of which logically there can be only one, we would call "god."

As I hinted, I believe there can be no proof if you follow the philosophy of Ethics. Kinda suspect that's what Aquinas ran up against.

Well, i guess it is for normal people.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po...s-part-of-human-nature-Oxford-study.html

https://evolutionnews.org/2014/08/more_studies_sh/

Good articles, Jag. Everyone who is honest know that the God concept is innate in people. But the God haters can't live with that and I'm about to the place I can't live with them, too.

Duh. There are five Transcendental Desires that were recognized around 400 BC by Plato and Aristotle. These are Perfect and unconditional Truth, Perfect and unconditional Love, Perfect and unconditional Justice (Goodness), Perfect and unconditional Beauty, Perfect and unconditional Being (Home). Consider these innate desires, intrinsic with our being. Now what might we call one who perfectly embodies these virtues? An uncaused, unrestricted being? God?

Just something to ponder.

This pretty much nails it right there. The belief in a supernatural being is not innate, it is an attempt at an explanation.

What is a god hater? Can't hate something that you don't believe. I don't hate god, I simply don't believe that one exists. Nothing to hate.

Seems like a weak attempt to justify your hate for nonbelievers.

They can hate the concept of God, and many do. They spout foolish hateful things such as, primitive superstitions, and all aspects of religion spring from man's own imagination, a web of lies, all fantasy.

Congratulations! You are one of the 3.1% who don't believe a God exists.

Maybe he's dyslexic and believes in Dog.



C'mon, you knew that one was going to show up sooner or later!

Simply stating that you think religion is mostly superstition, fantasy and a man made construct is hateful? Like I've said before, I do believe in God, but quite honestly the majority of the "hate" and anger I've seen in these discussion comes from the believers, and not by a small margin either.

There is no question at all that much of religion IS superstition and myth, and that man has used it to their own advantage. That's doesn't mean it ALL is, of course,but it's not unreasonable or hateful to think it might be so. People disagreeing with you or even saying that your beliefs are foolish is not hateful. Wishing death and suffering on others simply because they hold a different view point is.

Show us a few examples if you don't mind.

Very easy to find yourself, if your willing to admit to it when you see it.

Reverend Raider is an ass hole.

Belief in God, despite the article, is not innate. Otherwise we would not have to go into the world to preach the gospel, all people everywhere would already know the "good news." Primitive people do not tend to look to God but instead to "spirits" in the form of forces of nature .. lightning, volcanoes, etc. It's not 'til some level of civilization and education arise that the fundamental questions that lead to pondering the existence of "a" God begin to happen. You have to know something of the past, that it was different, before you can ask about that past, then about what was before that, and before that ... until some time where we hit a wall where "before" itself might become meaningless ... the "Big Bang". Points to a creation event of some sort. So what triggered it? Science seemingly can't tell us. Or, what amounts to the same question because it is fundamentally a question of time, as we build devices that allow us to look further and further into the universe, we begin to wonder just how big it is, then try for answers. At some point, we have to wonder if it is bounded ... not infinite, but through truly vast, essentially bounded. Because distance translates to time, we're still looking at the same question ... what is beyond also asks what began before.

So no, rather than belief in God being innate, I think it requires some level of sophisticated understanding of the universe before the right questions enter our awareness ... belief in God is, rather than innate, **learned**.

Tom

nothing quite like dancing around a beautiful rose bush in full bloom, and also full of thorns.

the great mystery, the great unknown, omneity, and hundreds of other words for god, or to represent god.

at our level of conscious being, we can outhink the gorillas, and other monkeys. we can do that.

as has been mentioned on here before, "that which is beyond understanding can be called god."

we can call god otherthings as well, but it'll all be rooted in our conscious understanding and beliefs.

Faith may be innate, but it's fairly easy to lose faith. My daughter an RN, claims about 3 years in the pediatrics ward is enough to convince most people, that, if in fact there is a deity....it is a cruel and capricious deity to visit such pain and terror upon the most innocent of us, the babies. Yet she keeps on...keeping on for them.

When someone of your character says that about me I consider it a compliment. xxclaro made the accusation, obviously made it up or he'd post some examples. I figured as such.

The concept of God is used in religions to give hope to those that need it.

We live in a fallen, sin filled world. Satan and his minions are alive and well, and are here to cause as much pain and misery as they can. Free will is given by God to everyone.

This is asserted rather often but nearly always in the direction it’s made here; rarely the other way.

In today’s environment of critical theory & a general distrust of religious people I’d argue that there is reason for concern that such feelings aren’t far from being institutionalized in law.

That is, anti-theism has proven an attempt for hatred of believers that will likely become more than just a personal issue but will be made public policy.

Your God created Satan, nut job.

Considering the Theology of the Bible, Judaism has a different view of Satan. More an angel of God playing an adversarial role than an evil entity, the book of Job, God and Satan having a friendly Wager, etc. The OT clearly states God as being the Author of Evil.

Yes, and God is needed by everyone.

Yes, He created you too, with your own free will, and like the Satan nut job who also had free will and chose to fight God, you became a nut job too.

This is obviously an untrue assertion. Billions have lived through history with absolutely no knowledge of God.

Millions live perfectly happy and moral lives today in this nation with knowledge of others' belief in God, but no belief of their own.

Any intelligent consciousness can figure a set of rules and laws which allow crowded humans to live together in harmony. That easy matter requires no supernatural intervention.

Some of us really have no need to dream of immortality.

Forty hour work weeks. Unlimited energy and knowledge delivered directly to our homes for minimal expense. Central heating and AC. Crossing the globe to any destination in hours. Constant and instantaneous communication with any loved one at any distance.

Our ancestors, all the way back to Abraham, would be the first to proclaim we have achieved heaven right here on Earth.

And they survived it?

Ain't nobody getting out alive!

Baloney. Heaven on this earth, right now? You can't be serious.

Sure is a lot of stupidity on this thread.

and this is when the fight started. lol.

i've given much thought to this subject, the pros & cons, and early intentions, and the outcome.

Compared to the caveman trying to take down a mastodon with a spear, rather than starve.
Compared to slaves and Christian's getting tossed into the arena with hungry predators.
Compared with plague ridden Europe and the 100s of years of the dark ages which followed.
Compared with having 12 kids in the hope one would survive to care for you in your old age.
Compared to the high probability that your wife would die in child birth.
Compared to scratching the barren soil 17 hours/day six days/week trying to get enough food to get through another winter.
Compared to any noble man lopping your head off with impunity if you failed to bow deep enough or quickly enough.
Compared to getting burned at the stake if you questioned the word of the local preist.
Compared to the ravages of influenza, cholera, typhus, smallpox, polio, gonorrhea, syphilis, deadly infections from the slightest of wounds or scratches, etc, etc.
Compared to the horrors visited upon conquered nations by Alexander, Ghengis Khahn, or Ceasar,.
Compared to the horrors of WW I and WW II.

How could one not recognize today as "Heaven on Earth"? The trials and tribulations experienced by the vast majority of us alive today are pretty inconsequential.

I guess it all comes down to what an individual's feels entitled to.

If one thinks he has been cheated in life and deserves much more than he has gotten, then perhaps he might dream of just rewards in an afterlife.

Me? My grandest dreams of childhood have been fulfilled. A wonderful loving wife of nearly forty years. A close happy family of three adult children who are all content to live within ten minutes of home. 10 wonderful grandkids whose faces all light up when we walk in the room.

A warm and secure home, and a comfortable life which is supported by only forty hour weeks these days. A financially secure retirement with greater income than I ever made during employment.

Knowing I will not get out alive does not bother me because I am satisfied now.

Or better yet, maybe you don't get it.......

I Corinthians 2:9 NIV
However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived”— the things God has prepared for those who love him—


Matthew 6:19-21 (NIV)

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

i've often considered that the ancient hebrews were ordained the land of milk & honey.

but it seems it's almost always on the verge of being withdrawn from them.

either because of their sins of omission or sins of commission.

it's to the point they're having to defend every border.

if it wasn't for technology we'd be living like apes.

It is you who does not "get it". A biblical quote has no more significance to a nonbeliever than if it came from
Lewis Carroll, Robert Ludlum, or Dean Koontz.

Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it untrue.

i don't believe christianity is having the intent or affect that it use to have a generation and more generations ago.

we're seeing and sensing a change, for better or worse take your pick.

we know that technology has changed and increased.

no more donkey riding on dusty roads.

the japanese & chinese aren't xtian.

neither is much of africa.

though some is.

can a religion stall out?

i thought islam had stalled.

but, they're back & killin' people.

the teachings of jesus is not the same as mysticism.

It seems to me that Christianity grew the fastest when it was aggressive and militant. Constantine, Cortez, inquisition.

Nothing gains religious converts as quickly as a sword.

Islam is at that point today, militant and aggressive. Maybe in a few hundred years Islam will mature to the point Chritianity is today.

everytime i see the High Priests at NASA show us the latest picture of the earth spinning on it's axis, i wonder what's going on?

we're moving rapidly through space and don't even notice nor feel it.

and yes, the muslims have re-gained consciousness and are on the move.

while they are actively sending out envoys and missionaries, i'm not sure the xtians are.

i'm not going to get into a tit for tat when it comes to missionaries. but we all know.

the catholics were successful in getting the us gov't to fight in vietnam.

maybe the xtians will be successful in getting gov'ts to fight the muslim hordes?

Whether something is true or not is determined by either the availability of evidence to support the proposition, or the absence of evidence...meaning that that there is no evidence to support the proposition.

Justified belief is supported by evidence.

Faith bypasses this process of reasoned justification through evidence in order to maintain a belief that is not supported by evidence.

He said have faith, not evidence. Evidence is for the flesh. Evidence is for the medicine i prescribe.

Faith is for your spirit side. Without faith you will not have everlasting life.

So stick with your 70-80 years of flesh, or let your spirit live forever in heaven. You have a spirit. There comes a time to follow it, and have some faith.

DBT,

May something be true yet not supported by evidence?

No, the moslem hordes are from Babylon, and that is who the WCC supports. They have been decieved and will now go for the dough, even more than before.

Muslims worship satan. Not God.

So what do you say to those Christians who have invested much faith in their evidence based beliefs?

where does that leave them?




Evidence can support a hypothesis or theory and further evidence can further strengthen such.

but that does not necessarily mean theory is ultimately true or proven without a doubt, just that evidence can build to further remove doubts.
The same evidence can also support other incompatible theories.

Proof on the other hand demonstrates theory to be fact. A list of facts can be used to build a case or argument, but not necessarily
arrive at the absolute truth, yet still have enough to satisfy a court.

Courts convict people beyond reasonable doubt and sufficient relevant evidence , is required to do so.
sometimes a mountain of evidence can still be conjectural or what's deemed circumstantial, inconclusive or ..unprovable.


Whether it be influencing-convincing a jury or a religious flock, there always some form of salesmanship involved.

Sure. But a firm conviction of truth without evidence is not justified. Speculating or hypothesizing is fine.

That's basically what I am saying.