Retirement is a subject on the fire that always brings out the naysayer. Here is Dave Ramsey's take on all the naysayers . . . (This is just a public service announcement)

Ramsey on Retirement

That is depressing. Stories like this, remind me why God gave us the .38 Special.

I'll go with 1-5 as being something along the lines of common sense, but don't agree with #6. I don't need to pay someone to tell me what I need to do for retirement. Sure some do, but most can figure out on their own. It's the actual following through with the plan that's hard for many. I'm 10yrs away from full retirement at 58. Can't wait.

The first thing out of an investing professionals mouth are annuities.

Many, but not all. Find one who is a fiduciary. They are bound by different laws.

Maybe ones who work for insurance companies or banks...

You go to insurance companies for term life insurance. You go to banks for loans and your emergency fund. You go to investment companies for investing. Don't mix them up.

A year or so before I retired, I looked at some annuities from outfits like Fidelity, and a couple would have equaled my pension, but with 100% survivor benefit instead of the 75% the pension offered. By the time I pulled the plug, that was no longer the case and I took the pension instead of cashing out to invest elsewhere. No fuss, no muss, no worry, just wait for direct deposit.

Retirement is not for the faint of heart, or for the financially challenged. I prepared well, but even so, I can’t spend like a drunken sailor. One strategy for me was to buy high quality toys at good prices when I was bringing in the big bucks. Nothing I really need now, that I don’t already have.

That has been my mentality for the last few years

If I buy ______ , will it last me the rest of my life ?

It wasn't until 10 years before my retirement at 66 that I actually got serious about saving and investing. It was Dave Ramsey that inspired us to get out of debt, and it was changing jobs back in Aug 2002 that provided sufficient income to fund our retirement. Dave always says you have to find a vocation that will pay enough to live and save/invest. 16 years of living in a hotel for 9 to 10 months out of the year, a thousand miles from home . . . working always six and sometimes seven days a week 06:00 to 18:00. But me and the little wifey agreed that we were going to do it because we had no other choice. Now I'm living the life of Riley and loving every minute of it. Was definitely worth it. I manage my own portfolio, but receive guidance through this service on the website www.seekingalpha.com

High Dividend Opportunities

Americans have plenty of financial planning, what we need is more financial execution.

I pay someone because he is better at it than I am.

Social security and Annuities, the right kind, can provide a stable and secure payment to cover one's recurring monthly expenditures for things like utilities, food, clothing, housing, insurance, gasoline, vehicle maintenance, regular medical care, etc. You don't have to put your entire egg into an annuity (ie. a bond fund can work,) but everyone needs a secure income stream for these critical, recurring expenditures.

I recommend a reading of this book on retirement. Out of a dozen or so books I read before retiring, this was by far the best and most useful to me. Open this up in Amazon and you can read previews of most of the chapters. (Just click on the photo of the book for the Amazon link)

In order to retire I just have to stop working. To really retire, I'll have to sell all my junk so I can quit working on it. Then I can sell the tools so I won't be tempted to use them. Then I just have to convince my wife it's OK for her husband to do nothing. GD

That or, "you can't do it alone."

STories like this remind me why God gave us a brain.

Funny how very few professionals discuss real estate investment.

You can have too much, and work too long. At some point if you are unlucky they toss you into assisted care, and 100,000 or 1,000,000 will disappear. So spend it early, and don't work for others. I have a very nice nest egg, and I think I am done before 60. Never got unemployment or any other benefit, so I am tired of paying into a deep pit.

First try Alpo, PBR and moving to Idaho

You can plan and plan. Then still lose it all because of medical problems and or bad investments. You need a plan for what happens when you are broke.

That's pretty sound advice.

Best to have everything paid for, have a good pension to go with Social Security. It’s nice to have money saved also. Most companies have done away with pension plans.

dave ramsey has lots of good advice but its not for everyone. I would say its for most people though. The problem I get is he always says "good growth stock mutual fund" uhh where? I have personally be unable to find anyone who has gotten wealthy with this strategy. NONE and I do ask. I ask my accountant, my mortgage guy, who sees 1000 tax returns a year. The problem is people don't get wealthy by investing that way. They just don't. The numbers never seem to work. the 401k people may have 100k in some account in a mutual fund they have made some money on. to that I say big whoop, 100k aint getting anything done. Where are most people's greatest wealth? in their house, right? YES that is where your average persons biggest amount of wealth is at, Soo

If you ask people that have really made it, its going to be insanely rare to find someone who doesn't trace their wealth back to real estate somehow.

Dave's advice on budgeting, settling debts, and not actually being bankrupt is spot on. I do tune in at times to listen to him but, when he tells someone to sell a rental property they have 50% equity in that makes them money every month, my eyes glaze over and he loses me.

My Dad has been retired since he was 55. No pension, a few hundred grand in the bank and a few houses that were paid off when he retired. He lives very comfortably in West Palm Beach . He hates phugging Stocks ,

I'll probably just hook up with the next 21 year old freshly minted financial planner who wants to show me how to get rich. They all seem to have a fairly high level of interest in the money I earn.

LOL, ain't that the truth.

Dave speaks to the very unsophisticated investor........

Basic stuff and works fine for many.

Yup. And for the right person an annuity can be the perfect tool. Or it could be like pounding nails with a socket wrench. Depends on a lot of variables and if the advisor doesn't ask a ton of questions raise your red flag. I did it for 12 years and did not once put a client into a product they did not need or did not fit their comfort zone.

Not that hard to have integrity. Demand it.

I guess I must be the exception to your rule. I got started with stocks and mutual funds and have never stopped. The only real estate I have is my house, and I would say that it is a small (and iliquid) part of my wealth. Mutual funds probably account for about 70% of my wealth and I find they are easy to convert to income when needed. Not sure who you are talking to, but I can't imagine an easier or dependable way to go. For the record, I was a financial adviser for 10 years.

I have looked into real estate many times over the years, but it fails to impress me. Dealing with tenants, government, attorneys and insurance companies is a nearly sure way to lose money. Not to mention the near necessity of debt and lack of liquidity. I guess there are lots of ways to do it, and my hat is off to anyone who can navigate the minefield of real estate, but I think I found a better way.

SAFARIMAN sold annuities...thats all you need to know about them...

Sorry, but Dave Ramsey is a pompous, know-it-all, windbag.

My wife and I have always worried about retirement, but then God brought a gentleman from our church into our lives. we ended up giving him a power of attorney where our paychecks go into his account and he then pays our bills and invests the balance. Mr. Claiborne says that we should be able to retire well ahead of schedule......

Glad for you but there is no way I’d trust anyone with that much control over my livelihood. That’s some don king and mike Tyson trust

Same here. A house isn't an investment, it's a place to live. If you sell it, you still have to have a place to live. My wife and I invested in mutual funds our entire careers and will be fully retired in 2 years. We will be able to live very comfortably.

Does he give you monthly or quarterly statements and does he tell you exactly where your money is invested? If not, I'd run.

Here we go.

Let the games begin.

2 fish on,




so far.



Nice.

That sounds UBER!

Wealth is my middle name......




Slave



P.S. unfortunately, my first is No.

...and a wealthy SOB. He might just have some advice worth considering.

He tells us the balance every quarter, but in order to prevent temptation from causing us to wreck his work, we've agreed to run it like a blind trust where we won't know until retirement what investments he's chose for us.

When I first read this I assumed you were just kidding. Now I'm not so sure.

holy moly

I don't consider myself wealthy, but have done very well buying mutual funds. My house is a very small percentage of my personal assets. Please explain why the numbers don't seem to work.

Is this a joke?

I'm afraid that if we knew what the investments were in, then we would be tempted by the news media to sell when ever there is bad news about a particular investment rather than riding out rough seas. Much better to not know so that you don't sweat the small stuff

You gonna share his contact information so we can all profit from Mr. Claiborne's generous work?

He sounds very knowledgeable......

Can he sing, customize a Harley and wear assless chaps?

Even I'm not going to carry a troll post far enough to actually make someone deal with him...

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kills a mean bear too!

LOL....well done

Just something else to remember when talking about IRAs, take a look at HR 1499.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/leonla...d-cost-your-kids-thousands/#12eb836e2233

Can he advise me on my Pre 64 collection liquidation?[

hahaha

I can help you with that. Just send them to me and I will let you know what I did with them when you retire.

Quit being a bogart and share with us your, God loving, UBER, Avalanche driving, annuity salesman.

Doesn't matter if you can do any of that as long as you're the biggest one doing it.

But what would I tell Paul and Jack from LCT?
They are just starting out on Winchesters and I promised them I would help?

You were about to be charged with an over limit. You should be a bait dealer.

Wrong gun, you filthy animal.

I don't think he's investing in annuities, mainly dealing in used guns and optics. He says he's able to achieve 10,000% annual returns on that, he says the secret is in being able to sell the same item 4 or 5 times, but I haven't figured out how he's able to get it back to sell it again.

Be sure to also follow his excellent vehicle advice. This will allow you to demonstrate to the world the true depth of your wealth.

You had me at assless chaps.

Oh yeah and when he mentioned Claiborne it got my immediate attention


In reality My Edward Jones Rep sounded the same . What a [bleep] waste of time they were. TG I am invested with Fidelity

Spend 20 or more years in the military. Retirement issues all solved including medical

Just tell them God spoke to you about it.

and Marlene.

Disagree. 8% per year increase in value is nothing to sneeze at. You can sell it after it's doubled in value in 9 years, buy another place for the same money you paid for the first one, and pocket the profit. I've done it twice in the past 22 years.

I started a balanced portfolio of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and tax free municipal bonds about 1988. Wife and I contributed to it heavily till I retired in 2012, at age 61. And have a six figure pension that we could easily live on. That investment strategy has worked out extremely well for us.

How does one acquire a comparable house for half what one is worth?

The very best first investment you can make is in the finest marketable job skills you can acquire.

According to CumminsCowboy, you must be mistaken.

...and spend less than you earn.

How's a fella supposed to do that when you need a jacked-up F-250, toyhauler, and wake-board boat?

Buy a smaller house for what it's worth. Downsize, different locale, etc.

I see. Thank you for the clarification.
It is tax free money, but I like where I live and also despise moving.

Earn more money? Marry well? I dunno.

Make that 3 fish.... lmao

Truth of the matter is Dave has more money in Real Estate than the stock market by a LONG SHOT!!! He understands that very well. But if you think you think the house with 50% equity, still making payments to pay it off in a timely fashion, paying property taxes, and insurance, you are fooling yourself. You are lucky to break even in most places with the high property taxes. He encourages people to pay cash for rentals. You make money when you buy the property not when you sell it. Cash gives you leverage.

I've got a counsin that does that. They live in a mid size college town and have probably moved every 2-3 years for the last 20. They buy a complete hell hole, renovate it and sell as soon as they meet the IRS guidelines to not pay tax, use the money to buy two hell holes, live in one, rent out the other and do it all over again. They're probably up to 15 rent houses by now and when I saw them last weekend they were getting ready to move again. I like money but I like not having to move even more.

Don't knock it, I heard that his clients love him so much, they're willing to give him a kidney.

Whatever.
In my case, it worked very well, not every month, but over time, it’s been amazing. I failed to mention, we have an investment advisor that helps us. He recommends, wife and I decide on all buy/sell decisions.

Not to mention having to deal with renters. I've heard many a horror story.
Not for me...

It works well for me as well.
I try to refrain from accepting financial advice from broke people. I’ll bet you do the same.

Actually I do just that, not take financial advice from broke people.

I haven't met a financial 'expert" yet that would take me up on this offer:

"I have $xxxxx to invest with you. I will give you 20% of the profits you generate for me using my money. If I lose $$ or break even I owe you nothing."

If financial experts were really experts, they wouldn't have to make money off of investers giving them financial advice, they'd have made it on their own investments already.

I agree. That’s why I educated myself so that I am comfortable not relying on someone else.

Live at home with mom and dad, have a job, stay till they die and you inherit .
Oh and dont forget the white frame stupid sunglasses either.

A license to sell insurance is required to sell annuities.

My advice is do something that makes sense to you, if you don't know anything about pork bellies, don't invest in pork bellies. Don't let some dipstick sell you into a bunch of canned crap



Me, I hate stocks but will own a few to be diversified. I like rentals, it's not sexy but it works for me. If the socialist come to power and wan't my retirement fund, at least I can make them bleed to come and take it .

I used to enjoy listening to Ramsey, then one day I realized if I followed his advice I would only be half as far along as I am! There is many ways to build a substantial nest egg under our system.

Also he was doing a survey of people with 1 million + in assets and he claims his statistics include 10,000 + people. That got my attention so I spent some time reading the stories.....

The vast majority consisted of two working couples making $200,000 + a year in wages. They invested in stocks and acquired a million plus in assets..... duh

Try making a million in assets starting at minimum wage and working up to a modest salary..... now that get's my attention

I hate moving. There are three ways to make money---investing in the market, real estate and growing a small business. We chose the first. You can do as well in the market without having to keep moving.

I think the stories about the Ramsey Millionaire's shows that people who contact Dave Ramsey are more likely to have made their money in the stock market. People who made their money in real estate are less likely to contact Ramsey, I would guess. Also, most of the people with a million dollars made a lot of money and turned it into a lot more money. Probably because the vast majority of humans suck at money. Look at some of the advice in this thread, yikes. You can make money in real estate but it usually takes sweat equity and effort. The markets take zero effort. I'm about half and half, markets and real estate. I might do commercial real estate going forward but I've about had my fill of residential renters.

I like this calculator. Pretty easy to use, and illustrates different paths from terrible to great fantasy. Naturally median path is a good guess.

https://www.retirementsimulation.com/

That’s a cool simulator. I plugged in a bunch of numbers, looks like I’m okay unless the zombies show up.

My big question is, how much is it going to cost me each year in retirement? The house is paid off, I have my toys already and they’re paid off, and I’m a cheap date.




P

To each his own. I hate the market, and chose business. I'd bet it way outperformed any market you'd want to compare it to. If it were that easy everyone would retire "wealthy" and not rely on SS checks.

IMO you do the best you can and run with it. The vast, vast majority of people are one major unpaid/uninsured medical problem from bankruptcy anyway.

That is your call, but most say 3/4 of current salary. I don't know how general that number is because 3/4 of 50K or 100K is a different world.
I used my Amazon card yearly statement and my checkbook to judge my spending profile over the last 3 years. I think I could be comfortable with 3/4.
Financial advisor at my company had a healthy heap of self interest in my opinion. Self audit, and educated guess are as good as it gets I think.
If you want to have faith in the models, then just adjust withdraw amount to last until 95. It is all a guess.

I guess I am different than most:

Was let go at 50 and used severance to pay off my mortgage.

I have invested the max in my 401k for years. Guided myself, primarily stocks and mutual funds.

My securities portfolio is now 20+ times my base salary.

Next birthday I will be 70. I like and am allowed to work. Retirement is not something I look forward to doing. I will continue as long as my employer allows and the health of my wife and I are blessed to allow.

My wife of 49 years has always been a stay at home mom and grandmother.

This year I re-worked my estate plan and turned over management to professionals. I plan to pay for grandchildren’s education and give them a start on life.

Each of us is differently positioned. I thank God’s goodness that I am where I am today. I am blessed, know it and appreciate it. Glory to God.

Lots of good points here. Ramsey has good ideas for people just getting started. He mentioned getting an financial advisor. I had there and they were just awful. The time came when I knew the last one was just terrible. He sold me Non Traded REITS and loaded Franklin funds. It has been 5 yrs now and the Non Traded REIT is stuck there , not able to sell it and went from 25 per share to 17 and 7% dividends to 4%. Five years and still under water. The Franklin funds were sold but I track them and I would likely be up 5%?? after 5yrs. I stayed with him for a little over a year and was gone. Did not even bother to return his call and to make matters worse my sone worked there and they fired him a while later. For what it's worth , there is a Pimco bond fund I have been happy with for about a year. The ticker is PONAX. It pays monthly and comes to a bit over 5% in dividends per year. The share price stays almost the same but goes up and down a bit. I put my temporary money in it like future tax money I saved for property taxes ETC and in a ROTH. I low 5% is not much but it only lost 10% in the crash 10 yrs ago and went back up pretty good. I am way ahead doing my own investments . Here is the catch. I could get rentals and do well. I have been a carpenter for 38 yrs. I could go work on properties for sweat equity , or I could stay at work for $45-50 per hr. I put in two bids on 2 rentals 6 yrs ago. I would have done better had I go those two houses. I went with stocks and some bonds. My income is about $18,000 per yr. Not bad, and almost completely tax free with ROTHS, 401's and qualified dividends that are low taxed, with my Municipal bonds that are tax free on the divies. I have 38 investments from $2,000 in Owens Corning to $100,000 in British Petroleum and everything else in between. Here is one catch though. I studied investing for about 5 yrs now , almost every night . I learned that it is very hard to beat a handful of index funds and a few bond funds. I make almost exactly what the market does but I do it with almost half the volatility. A good way to start is index funds if you are young, but not if you are over 50 or so cause the market is very high, but might go a lot higher. Safe dividend stocks like the Dividend Kings are a good bet. AT&T, Exxon Mobil, Walgreens, AO Smith, Kroger Foods are good companies that have raised their divies an awful long time, even through the crash. I hope to get to about $25,000 in divies in 4 yrs when I turn 60. I should get $1,700 form S.S. but lets say $1,500 and hope for $700 from my Carpenters pension. This gets me $50,000 a yr. I think I can do that forever cause I made only $40,000 last year and saved $18,000. I am cheap , love life on the cheap. Get a kick out of guys with $50,000 boats. My boat is 29 yrs old as of Saturday and I catch more walleyes that almost all of them hot shots. Also, I have no debt and house has been payed for 10 yrs. The Lord with contentment is great gain.

That is incorrect. The vast majority of folks do not have the discipline nor common sense to save money on a regular basis unless they are somehow forced to do so.

I'd argue the vast majority of people do not have the money necessary to invest and eventually retire on it. The avg American family makes $50k annually which doesn't leave much to get wealthy on. I do agree that people are by nature very undisciplined.

Correct. It is not math it is behavior.

Top notch investment professionals usually wont touch a portfolio under 7 figures unless its a friend or family deal. I helped my father manage his 401k and other investments for almost 20 years until they got to the magic number. Then a real pro took over and has multiplied his original nest egg 10x since 2007.

That is very interesting and makes sense....

I was saving when I made minimum wage, and I’m still saving today. It probably won’t change when I retire. You just have to make it a priority. Not owing money helps too.

You're not the norm, obviously. I haven't had any debt in almost 20 years.

Yep. Debt free to create the available money. Behavior to keep socking it away like a robot. And insurance to keep from getting wiped out before time to retire. And Then a way to feed it back to yourself without getting whacked with taxes.

Frankly the "professionals" who wont touch small amounts are simply trying to work as little as they can while making the most. 5% commission on mutual funds at 25k is the same amount of paperwork as 5% of 6 million. They would rather have 20 clients than kill themselves with acquisition and service on 200 smaller ones.

I just hate to see people think they can’t do it when I know they can.

What an tremendous reply. We are all different in our approach to life's obstacles/opportunities. I hope to work until 70 but will have to see what God has for me.

I am the world's best spender. I spend every penny I get my hands on. That's why I dont get my hands on it. I save or invest plenty and spend just enough to have a good time. Anyone can build up their wealth, you have to plan and execute.

My knees would break in half if I worked till I was 70.

I don't understand those that say they like to work? Working for others is my definition of hell. Working for yourself is better but you still have a boss.... your customers...
I say those that make the claim they love to work are lying to themselves and the rest of us.
Staying busy on your own terms is not work....

Yes. I hate buying things twice.

As far as retirement - not interested.

Shazaaaaaaam!!!

We like the Ramsey show and mostly follow his plan. I really like hearing the every day millionaires call in, but the above is mostly true. Every once in awhile he’ll have someone who made an average wage and saved a million but the vast majority made way over 100k. He always asks them what part debt played in helping them make a million and every one but one I’ve heard says none. But if you hear more of their story some of the net worth is in their home and almost all had a mortgage on it at some point. So debt did play a significant role in their wealth building.

That said I’m investing every month and am in it for the long haul. There’d be more millionaires or even just folks with decent retirement funds if they’d invest every month. Most won’t.

Ramsey’s answers to potential lawyers and doctors on how to pay for school are laughable though. He pretty much gives a non answer and says just do it debt free. If they all listened to him we’d run out of lawyers and doctors.

He is pretty upfront about loving real estate and that it’s not for everyone as well. I wouldn’t want to deal with renters.

I am in the camp that does not consider your home an investment to build wealth... maybe for your heirs?
You need a home to live in. Now if you plan to downsize or move to a much cheaper locale that could work. Maybe a reverse mortgage? Otherwise don't lie to yourself......

You know those people that you don't agree with? Well they don't agree with you right back.

very insightful post, your tip on the pimco fund isn't a bad one. 5% isn't a bad gig if you can liquidate it easily. This is an interesting thread. I think it shows different people view retirement and what is enough totally differently. I think this depends on where you live and also what standard of living you want. There is no right or wrong answer. Its you and your own happiness.

For me enough is a check for $20k/month in passive income. I don't see how you are going to accomplish that in stocks and "good growth stock mutual funds" The dave ramsey miliionaires aren't coming to the table with that level of passive income. I would also ask that if anyone knows someone that has built a portfolio with stocks that reaches 20k/month and didn't use inheritance or some lucky lump sum to get there I would be highly interested in talking to them. I personally think those people don't exist. I think the dave ramsey millionaires are people that have a paid for house, have 120k in a 401k, colllect $1500 a month in social security. and collect a pension, which probably totals 5-6k in income /month and they are calling themselves retired with that.

The problem with dave's strategy on real estate is that its kinda a mediocre investment if you don't use financing to accelerate it. Lets say you have 300k in cash to buy a rental house. Your investment is only appreciating 3% a year, That only keeps pace with inflation. So your cash nest egg investment most likely never gains in net value relative to inflation. Instead if you buy 3, 300k houses. you are getting appreciation on 900k in assets. so instead of 9k/year in appreciation. you are going to be getting 27k in appreciation on the 300k investment, that is 9% right there!!! even if you broke even on rents. Also the other beauty of real estate is you are able to keep rolling up and never pay taxes on the appreciated value. AND there are other things you can do with depreciation, google cost segregation study if you are bored.

with stocks you are paying taxes on the gains, with real estate you are deferring those taxes if you do it correctly. with stocks you have no leveraged appreciation. Also in most cases when you invest in the stock market you are depending on appreciation of the stock, Depending on a value increase IMO is gambling. If done correctly you invest for cash flow with real estate. That way you don't depend on appreciation, instead that is the giant cherry on top when you go to sell.

Is Mr. Claiborne from Nairobi? I got an email from that dude about some money I had coming...

Property tax, homeowners insurance and maintenance take a big bite out of that appreciation.

All those items your renters pay and have nothing to do with property value

yes that's a pretty bold statement to say they are lying...…..a little arrogant …..bob

FWIW as I recall, Dave Ramsey made his wealth in the Real Estate business...….

if you are tied to your home and can never see yourself moving......I would agree with you.....but for those that don't get emotionally attached to their house......different story......bob

Wife had an employer that offered a 2:1 match up to 4% in her 401k. Helped it build quick. Im self employed so we do the max into mine plus each have a Roth and a few individual stocks we purchased early on (Disney and Merck).
Owning a construction company, we naturally gravitate towards real estate. Toughest part is holding them. Just bought a duplex in a nice neighborhood that was dated (completely original) and was still in one tax parcels. Split it into two parcels to be able to sell individually and putting 40K into it. My agent said it will bring $100,000 more than the original investment minus the 40K and 16K in commission. Hard to hold it long term now when I can cash out 44K in 10 weeks and do a 1031 exchange and out that equity into another property.
Have a 4 Plex that is owner financed and plan on doing the same for a young guy when I'm ready to cash out.

Also keep a good amount of cash in the business and the kids college funds are each about halfway to paying for four years at a state school.
Our wealth has been equally attributed to stocks and real estate at face value, but the reality is my job in construction and selling spec houses funded the stocks.

People who like to work when they don't have to are those who never got any hobbies or interests. Kind of strange on an outdoors website...

It's got nothing to do with emotional attachment. It's got to do with "moving". It's a PITA and gets worse every year that you get older. You can't do it all like when you were younger.

I don't understand it myself but there are those who have identified so closely with what they have done the majority of their lives that it becomes their identity and they are lost without it. Have seen many Grade15/Senior Executives in the government retire and then they are back within 6 months in one capacity or another. They find out the wife really doesn't want them around the house idea all day and the children/grandchildren are busy with their lives and they never developed outside interests. They go back to work even though they don't need the money but they have nothing else to do.

Myself? Way too many interests to work a day longer than I have to. We're done in 3 1/2 years at 59. We will move from MD to NH and it will be a big new world to explore 9and not sit in traffic), fish and hunt, and deep winter is workshop and outdoors stuff and of course flying and exploring New England and the Maritimes. My parents are in their 80's and more active together and in their community as they have ever been. Having something to do every day is a key to a long and happy retirement.

A huge reason I stayed flying the reserves until retirement was to get TriCare at 60 and between it and my wife's insurance that she can take into retirement followed by Tricare and Medicare. Combine it with us living below our means, investing early and often in our lives it should work out. We transferred everything to Fidelity in our 40's and have been very pleased with their advice. My companies 403B was already with them so an easy move. My parents used Vanguard and had a similar experience, although my Dad is a much more active investor when it comes to stocks than I am but he grew up before mutual funds were as wide-spread as now.

Less than 3% of retirees have 1 million or more.
You said you need to have 20k a month, and that would be 6 million dollars in a liquid account.
General rule is 10-14 times income in retirement, so I guess you make 500-600K per year?

Dang Bob, couldn't you have called me an azzhole or retard or maybe a GFY? ........ arrogant... kinda harsh....
I tend to agree with UPhiker on this one..... no true outdoorsman wants to spend all his time working.

I’ve done it myself with Vanguard funds, absolutely no regrets.

Also disagree. I fully intend to downsize when I retire. My house has almost doubled what I paid for it 7 years ago. I have put about $20K into it. I'd say getting $200k out of it clear, would be an investment.

Uh huh.

I always seem to go towards RE
Have little in stocks/funds these days

20 YO house on 75 acres in a booming area.
7,500 Sq.Ft. building 3 blocks from a 10K student college
2 OF beach rentals
1 Smokey Mtn rental[so far]

All of the RE has had great appreciation over the life of our ownership

Some would like to be working on their hunting and fishing...I could make it a full time job...😎

PS
Fubar is arrogant? Laffin, not even close...

The more I read about Dave Ramsey the less credibility I think he is. SOME of his advice is common sense and good. SOME is good for some people and not for others. He was a complete utter failure in finances and ended up in debt up to his eyeballs because of bad choices. His advice is geared toward people heading down that path, or already where he was. People who make good decisions from the beginning might find another path works better.

A home isn't as great a financial asset as many believe. My mom and dad paid $25K for the lot and to have a home built in 1972. After they passed it sold for $103K 41 years later in 2013 for a $78K profit. But in those 41 years they paid insurance and property taxes every year. It was painted twice, re-roofed twice, the HVAC system replaced twice, water heater twice, kitchen appliances replaced, new floors and the driveway was repaved once and finally broken up and new concrete installed. For whatever reason the septic system lasted about a year after we sold it and the new owners replaced it.

When you back out the money spent for taxes, insurance, and upkeep there was very little profit after 41 years.

No but there sure are people that will do it for you if you pay them. Not too hard to figure out.

A single family home is a luxury according to my Dad. He lives in one but does not consider it an investment.

In 1965 he bought a new 2 family home in NJ for 25k. He sold said home in 1995 for 375K. He had an initial 250 a month mortgage which the renter paid for the first 15 years and then of course rents went up considerably. The rent was up to 1500 when he sold the home in 1995. the house had a first floor with 3 bedrooms and a full basement with kitchen, LR and bathroom. He delved in the stock market very briefly and got out. I don't even remember the brokerage house. He flipped homes and commercial properties and did quite well even while working 60 hour weeks at a regular job

.

Probably still a better financial outcome than renting for 41 years.


My parents had two homes at retirement, one in town and a smaller one at the beach. Both homes were long paid for, they recently sold the home in town they bought in 1976 tax free. They just didn't need a large home in town anymore. Now they live at the beach, and will rent or buy a small place in AZ for the winters. All the money they put into the house came back to them plus some. A much better RTOI than renting for 40 years and having nothing.

How much rent would they have otherwise paid in those 42 years? A person has to hang his hat somewhere.

that is because its georgia, my first house appreciated 17k in 4 years. that was net after fees and closing. my payment was $450 a month, (25 years ago) while it wasn't free to live there it wasnt that far off. A neighbor down the street from me, I looked up his house and after 9 years it appreciated 40k more than the sum total of the piti payments. principle, interest, taxes insurance. So he got paid 40k to live there for 9 years time. in 20 years most properties in my area have appreciated 130-150%. I think this is why dave's advice is so universal, The problem is so many real estate markets are so stagnant and don't perform. This is something you need to study very well if you are interested in real estate investing. The area must have a draw to it. so many places in the south and back east have nothing going for them as an area to attract people to move there.

I think many of dave's biggest fans live in the bible belt. which coincidentally has some of the crappiest performing real estate out there. probably has something to do with the general advice he gives.

how to I plan to reach that? 7 million in gross real estate holdings, 2 million equity posistion, 12% cash on cash return on my 2 million. Its not a cake walk to pull that off but if you study it, are careful its doable even in the insanely priced real estate market I live in. Its going to take me about 10 years to get to this point. the 401k people will never hang with this. Dave ramsey has no answer for this level of income.

Irfubar........sorry about that.....I don't take you for being someone who is arrogant.....pushed post to fast.

I was ready to go all mch there for a minute....Bob

Yeah, but you probably missed out on the jacked-up F-250, toyhauler, and wake-board boat in your 30’s. 😀

Sounds like you had/have your priorities straight to me. Congratulations.

Plus do it while you are young.....Bob

Good thread. Great reading.
I have not yet seen Capital Gains Tax mentioned.
For those who have had their rentals value increase nicely over time it seems like there are only 2 options for selling 1) take a big tax hit, or 2) re-invest in a similar property.
Anyone here dealt with that issue?

Long term capitol gains is 15% federal, plus state. So that's probably around 22% of your profits for most people. Two possible ways you might deal with capitol gains on properties.

1. move into the property for 24 months withing 5 years of selling it.

2. Setup a self directed IRA and LLC to buy the properties. When you sell money stays in the IRA, taxes get deferred until you pull the money out at retirement, hopefully at a lower rate.

I'm not a tax professional, so don't listen to my advice and talk to tax professional.

Bottom line?

Dave Ramsey has a plan.

95% or more of the average Joe's out there don't.

Therefore, Dave Ramsey's plan wins 95% or more of the time.

You can sit and split red pu$$1 hairs arguing if it's better to save and invest in real estate, or REIT's or dividend stocks, or health care stocks, or index funds, or ETF's, but it is all whining about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Dave Ramsey's plan is simple:

1) Be deliberate in your career. Don't get stuck in a dead end low paying job. Make some money.
2) Be deliberate with your money. Spend some, save some, give some. Devise a plan and stick to it.

That's it, really. You can go all Pharisee on the details and fuss about all kind of stuff, but if you do 1) and 2), things will be just fine.

With mutual funds, I've learned to avoid most of it by purchasing low turnover funds like index funds. Management fees tend to be lower on these as well. Although I own a bit, I'm not a real estate trading guy.

You stated Dave's plan very well.

He comes across as crabby as Dave too, which adds flavor.

You are describing the exact behavior that (in part) led to the financial crisis in 2008. People leveraging debt and making assumptions based on short term historical trends during an unprecedented time of low interest rates. There is a lot wrong with the assumptions you are making, but there is no way I can tell you it won't work out as you say. Your "accelerated financing" won't look so good if you get a sudden decrease in property values and/or increase in interest rates.

So I guess I don't see how you go from having 300k in cash to buy a rental, to having enough cash to buy 3 300K houses with the same money.

I'm not an accountant either, but there's lots of things you can do beside a 1031 exchange to shelter gains from real estate.

I don't think a residence should be anyone's primary investment, but I don't know that its ever a bad deal unless you buy way more house than you can afford. So much of appreciation is based on an area's population and job growth, the higher those two things are the higher the appreciation. If you're in an area with flat or negative population growth you're probalby going to do about the inflation rate, which is basically a forced savings account when you consider you would still be paying principle, insurance, taxes and maintenance indirectly through a land lord if you rented. If you're in a faster growing area (say Atlanta, Austin or Houston and you bought 25 years ago) you're going to do better on a house than you probably would in a stock market or other passive investment, particularly if you plan to downsize on retirement and can tax the money tax free

I am glad you didn't go all MCH on me..... I had to hide in the bunker for a week after that....

I will try hard to keep my arrogance in check....

Oh, and the wife and I drove through Paradise Valley last week..... around Chico she asked if we were on the reservation? LMAO......... around the next bend million $ homes

. This is why I say invest for cash flow. I owned a rental during the darkest days of the Great Recession. That houses value dropped by 100k. But the rents stayed the same during that time. I still covered my pay emend. If you invest for cash flow with a buffer you are not going to go broke. The reason for the collapse is people were getting 600k mortgages with no money down making 60k / year. Property investors using traditional financing need 20% down in almost all cases. They also have cash reserve requirements as you get more loans.

So I was poking around San Francisco this weekend, and the redhead wanted to know about San Fran real estate. We were in the Russian Hill neighborhood (east of Pacific Heights), and according to Zillow, the median real estate value dropped 6% over the last 12 months, and the forecast is for another 4% drop.over the next 12.

That would smart a little, especially since the median home price is 1.6 million. Losing 160K in two years does make leveraging look less smart. Even in San Fran, that's a good bit of money....

To your other point of modest returns in many markets, that is true. However, one of the benefits of buying a home is that your rent never increases. So even if you make 3% on your investment on paper, if you pay 50% less after 10 years than you would have for equivalent housing, that's also a "return" of sorts.

However you come to it, to me the it's just a question that I'll never have another landlord do a walk through of the house four times a year. People coming into my house either have an invitation, a warrant, or a chance to get shot.....

Here is some fake real estate math from the great recession to now

Lets say you buy a house in 2010 for $130k, rent it for 1200 month. After taxes, insurance, maint, you make 12,000 a year. That's about 9% cap rate. Now jump ahead to 2018, eight years later and that house in now worth $230k a 55% upside over 8 years or 12.5% annual. So at the end of the day your 120k investment payed 21.5%, in a tax shielded in a IRA. That 130k is now $326,000 once you sell it. Even with rehab job thrown in for $20k that's still in the 18% ballpark. If things go to chit you still get 1200 a month, every month.

Yes, you have to deal with renters, maintenance, voltile markets,etc There are risks and seldom is the market that good.

You left out the part where they lived their lives and raised their family in comfort. That's got to balance out the debit column some what, no?

BTW, Ramsey never argues with the math whizzes who call into his program. The math may work out in favor of the math genius, but for the vast majority of common Americans . . .they don't do the math, so he just sets down rules based on common sense. Worked for us. We followed his advice 15 years ago and retired debt free and financially free. God bless Dave Ramsey. By the way, I'm not a mathematician.

How far along to the 9 million dollar 10 year projection are you? How far did you come in the last 10 years? I have 7 figures in 401K, where can I get 12% in any market ant any time, like a 12% return in this good market. Thanks.

Bernie Madoff was paying 12%..........

Sounds optimistic to me.... could be wrong

They had to have a place to live, correct? Look at all the taxes, upkeep and maintenance as their rent payment.
Also, your area saw WAY less appreciation than ours. Old man built his house in 1972 for less than $10,000. (Did all work himself on the cheap) 1260' ranch on a basement and acre lot. It's worth easily $240,000 today. Whick is 7% appreciation per year so much higher than the 3%-5% average. Your parents home appreciated at 3% per year (low average). Guess it really depends on the area, initial purchase price, location etc.... My uncle bought a farm outside town limits for $37,000 in the seventies. Town spread to the edge of the farm which is now an industrial park. Sold 40 acres for $40,000/Acre for 1.6 mil. That's close 10% appreciation so way beyond average.

Wealth building takes good choices and good luck too.

how far am I along with it, well this is a pretty personal question that I would only answer privately. 12% isn't all that magic. I have friends that get 20-35% in real estate. OR the real nugget is infinitie return. They have no out of pocket money in the property. I can explain how this is done but it would take me a bit too. They are better than me and do if for a living. They have a network for ways to find deals. There are a couple ways to get to 12%, Buy a house that needs rehab with private lending, AKA cash, do the repairs, Then have the house appraised with the repairs done, This is a concept called forced appreciation. you get a value greater that the cost of the repairs you make, What it normally means is you have 20% equity in the property but it only cost you 10% to get it. your positive cash flow divided into your out of pocket is your cash on cash return.

The other way is figure out highest and best use of the property. That could be renting out a mother in law basement to someone else and having 2 renters in the same house. OR it could mean any number of other things done to increase rents. maybe adding bedrooms etc. 12% isn't a hard bar to get to, but its not just everywhere, you need some education to get that in my area. my area has had insane apprecation over the last 6-7 years. Rents have lagged behind values. that means finding deals is harder.

I bought a town house in '08 for $53,000, spent $30,000 renovating it. Held it 8 years, cash flowed $4,000/year which paid for the renovation. Sold it for $105,000 in 2016.
Bought a fire damaged house on short sale for $40,000. Spent $35,000 renovating it and sold it for $117,000 3 months later .
Buy the stuff that scares everybody else. Buy a house that was never updated or maintained but is in a nice established neighborhood.
Buy single family homes in R2 zoning, add on and make it a duplex. Don't get attached or renovate like you're gonna live in it. Do bare minimum. I've bought and simply cleared the overgrowth, mowed, pressure washed and cleaned out the interior and sold it to an investor to finish the flip and made $15,000 in a 4 week period. Like Cummins said, every property is different. You have to be creative and think outside the box.

Seem like Cumminscowboy has a dividend mentality. He uses rentals instead of stocks. Yes, Cummins cowboy might take a big hit in the value of his properties, but he will likely keep the same amount of rental income. Does it matter if his property values drop 50% ?? No , it does not. Not one bit, , , if he can keep his rental units full and they keep paying rent, and he stated he did during the 2008 crash. Now , those rental properties are worth much more. He stuck it out and was rewarded. I have an investment of stocks and bonds, very carefully selected . No different than how carefully Cummins Cowboy selected buying his rentals. He did not loos one cent in capital cause he did not panic and sell at a bad time. His rentals continued to pay the loan, taxes and him in that time. My plan is much the same. I buy stocks and bonds and am very careful what I buy and when. I buy stocks and most have not cut their dividends in 25 yrs. The first thing I look at is the companies income, what they make, their debt level, their payout ratio ( how much of their funds from operations go to paying dividends) and very importantly , did they cut their dividends during the crash and did they have the money to pay divies without borrowing. I have stocks that have increased dividends for 43 yrs, ( Walgreens, Exxon Mobil, and some others. I believe they will do the same in the next meltdown and I likely will not see reduced dividend income despite the stock value plummeted. If it plummets, I likely will reinvest the divies and buy the shares at much lower prices. much like Cummins cowboy likely did when real estate was very low. Instead of panicking, we see opportunity to buy at a depressed price. Sure , times could get so bad that these companies could crumble and Cummins Cowboy could see empty units. I will cross that bridge if it ever happens and it just might. I buy when there is so much pessimism that everyone else is selling. I did this with land 30 yrs ago. I bought 7 ac. on the S. Fork Flambeau River for $3,000 cash. It is now worth at least $50,000 with a small cabin on it. Taxes hardly count @ 200 bucks a yr. I enjoyed it for 30 yr to boot. Buy what you know, at the right price and time and you will do very well. Also, I bought REITS 1 1/2 yrs ago and am up at least 30% with the divies. Buy what you know. If you know guns, you will see a deal noone else sees. Old cars, Land, lumber, antiques. Heck , there are guys out there buying baby bull Holsteins out there and making good money 14 months later for beef. Why? They know what they are doing. My dad bought 2 houses and fixed them up. One in 2000, one in 2010. We sold the one we bought in 2010 and broke even. Mom sold after my dad died. The renters ruined a lot of that house in 8 yrs so she did not make capital gains but we figure her rental was equal to about 8% in dividends. Not bad but heart breaking to see that house when they moved out.

Well said ihookem. I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head.....concentrate on what YOU know and are comfortable with. For me it is oilfield service companies primarily, for cumminsand jackmountgain they obviously understand what they're doing with real estate, and you have a great plan yourself. Like gregintenn said, do something, early in life, and stick to it. You'll be glad you did.

You guys are right that there is good money in real estate. There is also a lot of work and headache in dealing with it. When you rehab a house, do you count your time and labor? Buying mutual funds takes no labor and very little time If you enjoy working on houses, that is great. I do not.

Good and interesting thread. Proves there are many ways to skin this cat.

As a side note. If you know anyone who is a renter , and one spouse dies, the cost basis goes up to what the value on the property is at the time of the spouses death. This means if they sell like my mom did after my dad died, the cost basis what a bit more than what she sold it for so she pain no capital gains on that property so you will not pay capital gains on the rental at the time of spouses death. Just saying.

I build for a living so it only makes sense to invest in what you know. If I was a suit and tie guy driving a sedan, I doubt I would invest in real estate. I spend a lot of Saturdays mowing, painting, doing repairs etc...

Devise and adhere to a plan that you are comfortable with.

Live within your means.

DO NOT invest money into anything that you cannot easily explain how it works to someone unfamiliar with it.

Consider risk, return potential, and tax implications before investing.

Do not take investment advice from broke people.

DON'T borrow money and you can't go far wrong, for long.

That’s good advice, and that’s exactly why I don’t buy baskets if stocks hoping they will go up. I buy stuff I think I can make money on, buy low, sell high. Don’t be afraid to sit on the sidelines when nothing seems like a deal, patience pays.

A lot of food for thought here. I understand real estate because a good friend wants me to go in with him. I dont know if I want to devote the time it would take to make a real go of it.

More important than any other advice.

If you can't afford to pay cash for it, you can't afford it.

And yes..that goes for cars and houses too.

You can't believe how cheap you can live when everything is paid for.

Last line. If your financial planner lives in an apartment and drives a Kia, you might need to rethink your choice.

As Dave says “ don’t ask broke people for financial advice “

yep that is how it works the value basis increases, capital gains can be avoided entirely. The problem I have with stocks are IMO they are run so that the CEO and board members get rich and they are the ones looking out for them. Look at a company like yahoo. marissa mayer runs the company into the ground and basically bankrupts it but walks off the scene with an insane amount of money. I know some people who took a company you may have heard of public 8 or 9 years ago. The best year the company ever had was when they made 10 million 1 year. every other year they broke even and the year before they went public they lost a couple million on paper. Yet the IPO went for $500 million. the investors actually valued the company at a half billion?!?! within 5 years the company was trading at 1/5th the IPO price. The only people that got rich were the founders of the company and the private equity firm that bought part of the company in a private placement. I see insane CEO pay. to that I say why? you have no say in that as a stockholder. The company can issue more stock, ie print money. with real estate the sticks and bricks will always be worth something. The land will always be worth something. It will always cost market rate to replace the house. Stocks well no company lasts forever. a house built in 1940 is probably still there. a company started at that time, what are the chances they are still in business? its just seems to much value is based on hype with the stock market. Not to say that real estate isn't overpriced in my area, it very much is overpriced. I actually want a recession to hit. a recession is when the real money gets made. one thing I look at with real estate is what is new construction costing. new construction in my area has the widest split I have ever seen from existing construction. a 300k existing home with cost over 400k if you were to build it new. Years ago that split was probably less than 15% as opposed to over 30% that says to me existing homes are still a decent investment because you simply can't replace them for close to the purchase price.

I say that if you can cash flow your property if the rents had to be reduced to levels seen 10 years ago, during the great recession you shouldn't be too much of a risk, because if you are, everyone is going down if they pull back more than that. it would be a depression instead of a recession. Also with all this, there are laws that can be used to protect your assets. just like trump went bankrupt on his business but never his personal side.

That is a fact.

+3

Dave Ramsay gives good advice, in general, to Joe Sixpack who gets a W2 income for a living and nothing else.

But for a sophisticated investor, he's a little out of his depth IMHO. No risk, no reward. And for Joe Sixpack this works out just fine because Joe does not have the psychology to deal with risk.

But I will point out that some of history's richest men were and are risk takers.

DJT is a prime example. He would be just average rich (from inheritance) without the deals he did in the 80s. He almost went under in the early 90s, but ended up just fine.

Or it could mean that they don't waste money on stuff that they don't need...look at Warren Buffett.

DR has good advice for the most part but he really sets people up for disappointment when he touts 10% return on investments. i guarandamntee that most of his "Pro's" don't get that. i know that for a fact because i used one for about 7-8 years and wasn't impressed. you better plan on 5-6% with standard long term mutual fund investing and plan to be happy if it does better. if you retired in 2000 and used his advice you'd be fugged a while now.

Have to disagree to a degree, ingwe.

2 words.

Leverage
Equity

It all depends on your age. If you owe money on a house and you're in your 30-40s, it's okay. If you have a mortgage in your 60's, you're screwed.

I have many mortgages, and I'm not screwed.

I fully agree with this.

+3 for sure . . . I particularly like the phraseology . . . "You can go all Pharisee on the details" . . . I'm stealing that one!

I think you, and ingwe and I are talking about different things. We are talking about personal finances and you're talking about real estate investments.

Correct. But, this still holds true.

"I have many mortgages, and I'm not screwed."

Well, 401Ks have nothing to do with getting wealthy. They are for setting aside a portion of income for later in an inflation proof setting. For that matter, what good is $100K in a 401K at retirement? If anyone is trying to get wealthy off mutual funds, they don’t understand what they are doing. The money in my mutual funds have doubled several times over, and I still have 10 years to go to full retirement at 58. I’ve already gone somewhat conservative as I’ve already hit my goal.

I personally believe in preparing for the future, but also enjoying the present. After all, if life is not enjoyable, what’s the point? It usually boils down to making good or bad choices in life. It’s really not that hard. Self control seems to be a bigger issue.

Like I said before, most is common sense that can be done on your own, unless you lack the willpower to follow through.

Dave Ramsey has changed over the years.

At first I found his show almost mesmerizing, now I think he has gotten arrogant and perhaps bitter.

Jobs and relationships seem to go that way over time.

I like the saying..........

It is best to keep skunks and bankers at bay.

Debt free baby debt free!

Exactly. All my long term planning is based on 5% growth, which stays ahead of inflation enough for modest gains. Anything else is a gamble. Now, I’ve certainly done better than 5% over time, but I’m not basing future earnings or hope of retirement on past earnings.

My portfolio ihas been yielding an average of 11.2% over the past three yers without touching the principle. It can be done. Check it out . . . High Dividend Opportunities

I didn’t say it can’t be done, just that it’s not a reliable figure to base your income on long term. Just because I’m averaging over 15% long term doesn’t mean I’m expecting or making my calculations on it. If you have to make those numbers to retire, you may be sorely disappointed. My retirements fully funded with 5% gains. Anything over that will just be cash I’m trying to figure out how to spend.

I also have no desire to become wealthy off my mutual funds. They’re a high interest savings account and I’m transferring quite a bit into bonds now, as I have no need to risk anything. I plan to fully deplete my mutual funds over 25 years anyway. Probably won’t be able to though, but even over 30 years will be fine.

I really don’t keep close tabs on my returns, but just looked at the 1/3/5/LOF returns and it’s 5/19/15/17%. I’m not making my retirement plans based on those results though, even though those numbers came easy.

I’d give you an hour to draw a crowd, then kya for 17%






P

With longevity the way it is, you should always keep a decent percentage of money in growth funds. My Mom lived to 98 and so did two of her siblings. If you go all into bonds when you retire, inflation and higher medical expenses will eat away at your nest egg quickly.

Kodiak . . . the target yield at HDO is 7-9%. It just so happens the market has boosted that to it's current 11.2% yield. I was not trying to argue and criticize nor gainsay anything you are doing. Just comparing yields, because 4-5% is a popular perception in the portfolio management business. One thing I did a few years before retirement, in order to increase my investing options with my 401K money was to roll everything over into a rollover IRA. That way I was not restricted to just a few mutual funds selected by my company's 401K manager.

Okie, what does HDO charge it's investors?

Yeah, man. Not trying to argue. Everyone has their own unique situation. I just hate seeing people with marginal savings banking on double digit returns to make it. I try to figure conservatively to be over my goal. I am also blessed with two federal pensions that will fully fund my retirement, plus I can start drawing social security at 58, not that I’m planning on that being anything of value. I’m also enjoying today. Who knows, I may not be around at retirement.

mine has been around 9 lately using my own knowledge gained from 30 years of investing. but what did it do from 2001-2005? and from 2008-2015? i look at the worst eras in my life and base my expectations on that. 90's was great. 2001-2015, not so great.

I got in for around 350 a year three years ago. Was grandfathered in at that rate. I think it is up to around 500 a year now (or 64 per month.) I made back my fee in the first couple of weeks. There is a two-week free trial period where you can check everything out to see if it is for you. All payments are made online through the Seeking Alpha website. Pretty slick.

The best thing to do with broke people is sell them your real estate.

How I’d love to have 20K in passive RE


Be the first to admit I’ve missed some big gains for not willing to stick my neck out farther.


But hard to get your head chopped off if you don’t stick your neck out too far.

I like RE to pay for RE, or rather tenants helping us buy RE.

Never considered my house an investment in anything other than peace of mind.

Once it was paid for, we saved up some shekels and built our first rental house, outa pocket. Now we had some RE, the duplex we bought later paid off pretty fast since we now had 3 payments working on the principal.


Last condo we bought we were gonna take out a loan, since we’d started an Llc for our rentals. But they jerked us around too much, and we had impending travel dates so we just said f it and paid cash



Everybody has different ideas on how to get their fam to the land of milk and honey, and I wish everyone good fortune in their endeavors.


But if ole Dave has nada else going for him, make yourself employable and pay yourself first. Pretty good words to live by imo&e

80's and 90's were great, 2015 on is great, but you're right "the lost decade" was a long, painful period. I know. I started putting money into retirement around 1998, and it went nowhere, slow. Then again 2017 was great, and I made more that year than in the whole lost decade. That's the nature of long term investing. The good times come in very quick rallies, and if you're not in the market, you will miss them.

I've said this a number of times before, but I think it bears repeating. Especially for women, living into their nineties is entirely realistic. So a woman has an investment of almost 30 years if she retires at 65. That's a LONG, LONG, LOOOONG time for money to be invested "conservatively". Yes, periods like the lost decade ARE going to happen, bet on it. But with a 30 year time horizon, who can afford to go conservative early, and barely beat inflation? With a 30 year time horizon, the funds that will be needed 10, 20 and 30 years out should remain "aggressively" invested. Sure, take some money off the craps table to cover living expenses for the next five or even ten years, but not ALL of it.