The average non gun person tells gun people things like guns are dangerous and are more likely to get used against you than against the bad guy. LIE They average non gun person tells gun people that guns are not capable about being used against a bear, and that bear spray is FAR more effective. Even, Fish and Game biologists, will tell you the same thing. LIE
That was the mythology for the longest time, i.e., no handgun has ever been used effectively against a grizzly bear. Effective defense grizzlies starts with centerfire rifle calibers, we were always told.
That was the mythology for the longest time, i.e., no handgun has ever been used effectively against a grizzly bear. Effective defense grizzlies starts with centerfire rifle calibers, we were always told.
That was the mythology for the longest time, i.e., no handgun has ever been used effectively against a grizzly bear. Effective defense grizzlies starts with centerfire rifle calibers, we were always told.
That's because the average pistol packer can't shoot.
That was the mythology for the longest time, i.e., no handgun has ever been used effectively against a grizzly bear. Effective defense grizzlies starts with centerfire rifle calibers, we were always told.
That's because it does but if all you have is a handgun then you run what you brung.
An Alaskan guide once told me, "If you are going to use a pistol against a grizzly, file the front sight off of it. That way it won't hurt as much when he shoves it up your ass."
If you read through all of it the bigger the mote effective....if a bear was charging me I would prefer to have a centerfire as most would but sometimes it's just not practical...hard to fly fish with a rifle over your shoulder...
An Alaskan guide once told me, "If you are going to use a pistol against a grizzly, file the front sight off of it. That way it won't hurt as much when he shoves it up your ass."
So oooolldd, that's no longer funny. Perhaps it was when first told 100 years ago. Much like the "all ya gotta do is shoot your pard in the knee and outrun him".
That was the mythology for the longest time, i.e., no handgun has ever been used effectively against a grizzly bear. Effective defense grizzlies starts with centerfire rifle calibers, we were always told.
That's because it does but if all you have is a handgun then you run what you brung.
Yup. Id rather have almost any rifle over a handgun when the fecal pellets hit the rotary blades. That said, everything is a situation and trade-offs are made based on what one thinks will work best.
I have had two up close and personal encounters at bad breath range with black bears. Both were resolved peacefully without me having to kill the bear. one encounter was in a very heavy oak thicket, i did have a rifle, but not much ability to use it due to the thicket. two, coming down a mt trail with my wife and two dogs, bear was coughing in the brush about fifteen feet from us, dogs had the hair on their backs standing straight up. he didn't charge and i reconsidered the 9mm i had been packing. so....... that led to a marlin lever 45. 70, and various big bore revolvers and a 10mm. i feel a lot better. One thing to see a black bear at a distance, another at just across the room.
which leads to a little story. Had a grandson, the dog, and me up on a point in north central arizona, i.e. bear country. Gave my city boy grandson a glock when we left town, i told him to carry it. He didn't have a belt, so he put it in the glove compartment. On the point he took off with the dog into some heavy cedar, coming back saying something had really been pooping down there. I said did it kind of loook like a baby ruth with berries in it? Well yes, how did you know. i said i am going to take a look, yep, bear scat. There was a volcanic ridge right behind where we were, bear probably denning in their, plenty of food, and a stock tank about a 100yards down. I told grandson he was lucky as bear had probably been watching him. But i said no big deal. He said how can you say that. Well, i was armed at the truck, you should have been but were not, my dog can out run you so the bear would be busy with you dog okay, I love that dog, and i have four other grandsons, so wouldn't like it, but loosing one i still have four others. He kind of looked at me funny, but i was making a point.
There could be several reasons for their apparent effectiveness! Some hunters/outdoorsmen may shoot the long gun too early in the attack, missing the CNS, and “not” have time for a second shot. The bear may so close when the attack occurs, that a rifle cannot be put into use. The handgun can still be put into use while the bear is mauling the hunter/outdoorsman. The handgun user, may actually be more familiar with his firearm......he may shoot/practice more! memtb
Most of those appear to have been handgun vs black bear, not brown. If you look at all data available in total, you see spray works better on brown bears, while handguns work better on black bears. Avoiding the things works better than either.
An Alaskan guide once told me, "If you are going to use a pistol against a grizzly, file the front sight off of it. That way it won't hurt as much when he shoves it up your ass."
Did an Alaskan guide really tell you that or did you read it on every bear topic in the last 50 years?
Most of those appear to have been handgun vs black bear, not brown. If you look at all data available in total, you see spray works better on brown bears, while handguns work better on black bears. Avoiding the things works better than either.
can you share the data with us that shows that bear spray works better against the brown bears? I will be needing to make a decision as to which to bring with me, so please share that data!
From reading the report it sounds like I'll be OK for local Blackies with either 16 rounds of FMJ 9MM or 9 of 45ACP. Or I could just spit and tell them to go away.
An Alaskan guide once told me, "If you are going to use a pistol against a grizzly, file the front sight off of it. That way it won't hurt as much when he shoves it up your ass."
So oooolldd, that's no longer funny. Perhaps it was when first told 100 years ago. Much like the "all ya gotta do is shoot your pard in the knee and outrun him".
No offense intended.
When I began college in the Fall of 1955, I lived in an old boarding house where there were about a dozen Korean war vets, going to college on the GI Bill. I became friends with one of them, an Army veteran who'd been a paratrooper with the 187 RCT (Abn.) who jumped in Korea with the last full regiment combat jump in the Army's history.
The following summer of 1956, he and a bud of his decided they'd go to Alaska for the summer, prospect for gold and strike it rich. He had a Walther 9 mm P-38 his father had brought back from WW II and given him. He'd carried it in Korea. He took it with him for "bear protection." When he returned in the Fall, I asked him how he and his bud had done? He said they did pretty well finding gold and he'd supplement his GI Bill with plenty of beer and entertainment money for the year.
I asked him if he had to use his P-38 on a charging bear or anything like that? He said "No, but an old sourdough we ran into looked at my P-38 and told me, 'If you're gonna use that thing on a grizzly, file the front sight off of it. That way it won't hurt as much when he shoves it up your ass.' " As said, that was in 1956 63 years ago. That was the first time I heard it,
As an aside, the following summer of 1957, my friend and his bud went back to Alaska to find more gold. When he got back to school, I asked him how he did? He said, "Didn't find a freakin' flake of gold. Damned near starved to death."
He never again went back to Alaska gold prospecting.
My wife carries the bear spray. I spend some time in Griz country every year and have seen a few close enough to get a rush. We will spend 30 days in the areas between Jackson and Lander starting the last week of October and hope to see a bear or 3 but in reality Moose scare me more. I will, as always be wearing my Glock 19. A guy named Phil proved that a 9mm can be effective w/ some BB ammo so I will have my "Phil Drill" down to < 3 seconds. My wife carries the bear spray so I can spray some on the bear after the fact so the feds will be placated. Wind has little affect on BB 147gr. hard cast.
Didnt I read on here about a eskimo killing a bear with a .22 short? Along with the 9 cs 40 vs......should I use 12 ga 3 inch buck, 4 buck or 4 pheasant load? My Hope's are the noise will be enough and i will have no paperwork to do
An Alaskan guide once told me, "If you are going to use a pistol against a grizzly, file the front sight off of it. That way it won't hurt as much when he shoves it up your ass."
So oooolldd, that's no longer funny. Perhaps it was when first told 100 years ago. Much like the "all ya gotta do is shoot your pard in the knee and outrun him".
No offense intended.
Well said IB. Some of these "jokes" really get old.
Most of those appear to have been handgun vs black bear, not brown
Unless I counted wrong 38 out of the 73 cases were either brown, grizzly, or polar bear. It is also interesting that 9mm, 40, 45ACP, and 10mm combined for a significant number of the stops and were 100% effective. The 357 mag was only 80% effective, 4/5.
As an aside, the following summer of 1957, my friend and his bud went back to Alaska to find more gold. When he got back to school, I asked him how he did? He said, "Didn't find a freakin' flake of gold. Damned near starved to death."
He never again went back to Alaska gold prospecting. grin
Unless I counted wrong 38 out of the 73 cases were either brown, grizzly, or polar bear. It is also interesting that 9mm, 40, 45ACP, and 10mm combined for a significant number of the stops and were 100% effective. The 357 mag was only 80% effective, 4/5.
I don't think the sample size is sufficient to make any significant comparisons between/among calibers. Even the lowly .22 rimfire did pretty good! I think the primary takeaway from this article is that handguns in general are better for bear defense than "conventional" wisdom has given credit to.
This^^^^ The old saw about a pistol is just good for fighting to your rifle has always been one of those things that sounds better than it works for real.
Unless I counted wrong 38 out of the 73 cases were either brown, grizzly, or polar bear. It is also interesting that 9mm, 40, 45ACP, and 10mm combined for a significant number of the stops and were 100% effective. The 357 mag was only 80% effective, 4/5.
I don't think the sample size is sufficient to make any significant comparisons between/among calibers. Even the lowly .22 rimfire did pretty good! I think the primary takeaway from this article is that handguns in general are better for bear defense than "conventional" wisdom has given credit to.
There seems to be a big gap between "Conventional wisdom" and Common sense..............
From reading the report it sounds like I'll be OK for local Blackies with either 16 rounds of FMJ 9MM or 9 of 45ACP. Or I could just spit and tell them to go away.
No reason to get stupid about it, just have a lovely chat over tea.
Several years ago Brian Pierce wrote about the S&W 625 shooting auto rim loads with a 280 grain cast slug running about 900 fps..... about a month ago I posted the "attempting to lecture a bear" clip
I had an action job done on my 625 after the most recent bear encounter and am very pleased with how fast I can launch a bunch of lead accurately. Pretty sure a 280 grain slug at 900 fps would pass straight through any NC sized bear.
The wife and I walked up within 25 yards of a big black bear last Saturday. I had my Glock 20 10mm along for the hike. Gotta admit, I'd rather have had my Marlin .45-70 or Benelli M1 Tactical with slugs.
The average non gun person tells gun people things like guns are dangerous and are more likely to get used against you than against the bad guy. LIE They average non gun person tells gun people that guns are not capable about being used against a bear, and that bear spray is FAR more effective. Even, Fish and Game biologists, will tell you the same thing. LIE
The average non gun person tells gun people things like guns are dangerous and are more likely to get used against you than against the bad guy. LIE They average non gun person tells gun people that guns are not capable about being used against a bear, and that bear spray is FAR more effective. Even, Fish and Game biologists, will tell you the same thing. LIE
If these so-called "experts" would actually tell the truth, people would quickly find out that most of them are of little value to humanity.
Most of the issues that anti-gunners Fudds and dinosaurs use to preach against the use of handguns is that in the past, poor ammo availability and selection was probably the main reason for pistol defense against bears going south. Even today, I have to school dumbass L48ers and even home grown non-gun dumbasses that ammo type and bullet construction matters.
I've had to go crawling around on the alders plenty of times looking for and investigating DLP'd bears and never felt undergunned with a fully-powered .45 Colt strapped across my chest. I also sleep pretty well fully buttoned up in a sleeping bag with it next to my hip.
Originally Posted by AkMtnHntr
I'd rather have a handgun than nothing at all, bear spray is only good for seasoning.
Bear spray is only an option under calm conditions.
I used a pair of "cheap" Cabela's Pine Ridge binoculars. And all my luck for some time to come. They bounced riglht off her at 3 yards, so don't worry about "overpenetration".
I think an advantage of handguns over long guns is that, in most cases, you can get it into action faster. If the bear doesn't stop, repeat shots are also faster. With most rifles you need two hands to chamber a round. The avantage is especially important if the bear has got you down. As for bear spray, the problem is that nobody is really going to practice repeat shots enough to get familiar with it, especially during windy conditions. I think the best use of bear spray is if you expect an attack by antifa or someone. Fewer legal complications.
Most of those appear to have been handgun vs black bear, not brown. If you look at all data available in total, you see spray works better on brown bears, while handguns work better on black bears. Avoiding the things works better than either.
I have run into a black bear or two while out in the bush, no big deal. Nothing really to fear from a black bear...
However, when out in Griz country, I do carry bear spray and a 300 mag...
My standard first line of defense when I see a Griz is to sh$t my pants.... if that retched stench is not enough of a deterrent… the 300 is my next go to...
The can of bear spray is just an ornament I wear to keep the Fish and Game personnel happy.
Deal with blackies pretty regularly when upstate at my dads camp. Only one that scared me enough to draw a weapon was in the dark while hiking in to my stand in archery season. Musta got between her and cubs and she was about 50 ft away busting saplings and popping her jaws until the cubs joined her and they all ran off. Was carrying my Glock 30s with 10+1 230 grainers so sure i could have put a hurting on her if the need was there. In my experience with hunting them, black bears arent real hard to kill. Have seen a youth kill an almost 400lb one quick with one shot from a 243 partition. That being said I Always carry while in the woods, usually either my Glock 30s 45, or 19. Concern is just as high for 2 legged predators so my usual load is Federal Hst in the chamber, and first round in mag, followed by remainder of mag with FMJ-FN, or hard cast. The only time i spent any real time in Griz country I had my Ruger Redhawk 44 with Buffalo bore 305 gr hard cast in a chest holster and my Marlin 444 within arms reach most of the time and wife had a Glock 19 with the Buffalo Bore 147 gr hard cast aka the Phil Shoemaker special load, as at the time that was the biggest handgun round she could comfortably handle.
One friend told me his 10mm might not stop a charging grizzly but it would work just fine if he stuck it in the bear's ear while it chewed on his leg. This is the thing, at some point during a bear attack, one might be able to save his own life. The big advantage to the handgun is that it can always be with you. You might lean the rifle up against a tree whilst fishing but your pistol will be with you. GD
If one is truly being attacked by a bear, any adult bear.....you are not likely to get off 19 rounds. If it’s a large bear, a bunch of “Gold Dot’s” will help motivate an already aggressive bear into a ......very aggressive bear! Hollowpoint, handgun defense ammunition is “NOT” designed for penetration, in fact .....just the opposite! memtb
A trusty glock 9mm with 19 rounds will get your ass out of bind quick.
Where have you used that, and what ammo?
147 gr Speer gold dots, 19 rounds, I feel confident.
Well, at least you’re confident.
Personally, I’ll not use HP for any bear.
ironbender; Good day to you my cyber friend, I hope all is well with you and your fine family this morning and that the fires have calmed down up in your part of the world as well.
We're having a relatively cool and slow fire season, which is a blessing after the last couple of summers.
Way back in my memory banks I know I've read the after action report of a Conservation Officer who got worked over while releasing a young grizzly from a culvert trap.
If memory serves this morning ironbender - and it may well not - but should it, then the bear dragged the CO off the trailer and began to chew on him with enthusiasm.
He had shoved his left arm into the bear's mouth, then pulled out his duty arm - some sort of .357 Mag loaded with 158gr HP - and shot the bear 4 times in the face. The bear then released him and number 5 missed the bear and number 6 hit the open mouth as it was coming in to bite him again.
An autopsy revealed that the first 4 hadn't really penetrated whatsoever, but had traveled under the hide and were back in the neck muscle. It was the 6th shot which went through the roof of the bear's mouth and penetrated into the brain which killed it.
Please note that as a Canuck I cannot be trusted with any sidearms when in the bush and any knowledge of pistol/revolver bullet performance is at very least 2nd hand.
IF however, I was able to carry a sidearm for defense against recalcitrant ursine interlopers, it would be filled with either wheel weight solids or perhaps full metal jacket silhouette type bullets.
Lastly, our chosen "shoo bear" load is the Gualandi 1 1/8oz slug loaded by Challenger in Quebec - but so far we've not had to test any on local bears - so far they've all listened to reason and left without the situation escalating into excessive noise.
All the best to you all this fall hunting season sir.
If one is truly being attacked by a bear, any adult bear.....you are not likely to get off 19 rounds. If it’s a large bear, a bunch of “Gold Dot’s” will help motivate an already aggressive bear into a ......very aggressive bear! Hollowpoint, handgun defense ammunition is “NOT” designed for penetration, in fact .....just the opposite! memtb
Designs vary, best not get too dogmatic about it. As an example that contradicts your assertion, 24HCF member JJHACK has killed a large number of bears with 240 gr Hornady XTP JHP bullets, 44 Magnum caliber. I'm aware of several other successful kills with JHP pistol ammo as well.
Yes, most of my experience testing handgun ammunition in various ballistic media (including but not limited to dead Clydesdales) leads me to favor flat meplat cast bullets, such LBT and SWC designs, but various hollowpoint and softpoint bullets have been proven to work on bruins and other big critters. As such I subscribe to the "you pick whatever ammo you like, and I'll pick what I like" school of thought for this. Carry a .17 Bee if you like. No skin off my nose.
From reading the report it sounds like I'll be OK for local Blackies with either 16 rounds of FMJ 9MM or 9 of 45ACP. Or I could just spit and tell them to go away.
The wind is too crazy in my area to rely on bear spray or spitting (as you know). I prefer a hole puncher that will penetrate. This does not require a dedicated "woods" gun or "bear" gun, although I have never had to prove it.
Perhaps it was when first told 100 years ago. Much like the "all ya gotta do is shoot your pard in the knee and outrun him".