I'm seeing a good number of 40 S+W's on sale lately. I mean there will be the same thing in 9mm but only the 40 is on sale. I know a few guys who want to sell their 40's (to buy 9mm's mostly) but would have to take a big hit on them.

I don't see why other than the FBI and police agency's trading down in caliber. The 40 is a damned fine round. I shoot a 40 Shield with no issues. Yes it took a minute to get used to it in such a small gun but it wasn't that big a deal. I have a 40 Shield, a xd sub compact and a XD 5" tactical, all fine shooting pistols.

Apparently, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

Such as?

[/b][/u]he 40 is a damned fine round. I shoot a 40 Shield with no issues. Yes it took a minute to get used to it in such a small gun but it wasn't that big a deal.[b][u]


There in is the downside; most the people I've seen wanting a "four Oh", you mean a 40 cal?? Would not take the time and $$$ to shoot it and learn it.

I like the .40 very much and will continue to use it. Same goes for .45 ACP.

Law Enforcement has gone full circle since the FBI Miami shootout. 9mm didn't get the job done, so the FBI went to the 10mm. Female agents and some males couldn't handle it so the .40 S&W was invented. The Department I worked for went from .38 revolvers to S&W 4506 .45acp pistols in 1990. Then we went to S&W M&P pistols in .40 S&W in 2007. I'm retired now, but this year they are switching to the M&P 2.0 in 9mm. The FBI has also gone to the Glock 19 9mm. Advances in ammo have closed the gap some in performance, but I still love the .40. The .40 will always be around, but the availability of inexpensive 50 round boxes of good LEO ammo (HST and Gold Dot) may be scarce at some point. The reason given for my Department for,going to the 9mm was officially "easier for smaller framed officers to handle". That means women.

Ron

The 40 has been heading out the door for about 4-5 years now. Police agencies all across the nation are dumping it for the 9 because of the cost of ammo.


I think it was a victim of greed and agency budgets.

Three years ago, the shop I work at had a display case of 20-30 40's. Now we are down to 3--M&P, G22 and G23. The only ones who buy them are cops. Ohio7x57 is correct about the advances in ammo closing the gap. Also, you'd be surprised how many civilians follow what LE carries. Once the FBI (and MSP in our state) switched, the stampede to buy 9mms was on. I sold my 23 several years ago and just have a 19, 43 and 48 now.

I think it's simpler than that. First there's a herd mentality in law enforcement. "If agency X goes 9mm it must be good and is administratively and politically a good, safe choice." Second, most cops are not gun nuts. Just enough proficiency to qualify. And we all know that a relatively heavy 9mm makes that easier.

I love my Delta Elite 10 mm....I must be way outside the mainstream.

to answer your question,no way

9mm ammo has improved. I saw a recent penetration test with the 9mm, 40 s&w, 45 acp, and 357 Sig. The 357 Sig actually penetrated deepest, with the 9mm on it's heals. The 40 and the 45 were a few inches behind. All were using premium ammo. Even though the 357 Sig out performed the others, the ammo is much higher than the others. 9mm being the cheapest followed by 40 then 45 and 357 Sig.

I tried 9mm fmj ammo at the range. At 100 yards at a man sized target (hard to actually get a good hit), however it penetrated a 1/2" plywood holding the target, and penetrated a 2x4 behind the plywood. It penetrated the 2" thick side. Even though the 2x4 is actually 1-1/2" x 3-1/2" so the 9mm penetrated 2" of wood at 100 yards. Penetration of the 9mm is no longer a problem. If you double tap a perpetrator with a 9mm he is probably going down. At actual handgun shooting ranges less than 50 yards, 9mm no only can do the job, but with a lot more ammo in the magazines. I was very surprised at my results. This was with fmj ammo, don't know what expanding ammo will do.

It's a fine round, but quite snappy in the hand when chambered in the same weight guns as 9mm. Not in the least painful, like a true Magnum, but snappy, such that follow up shots are slowed for most shooters, which many find disconcerting. If it were chambered in Glock 21 sized guns, they'd be a good match for the gun, and might be more popular. Imagine a Glock 30 in .40 S&W. It would be compact enough for carry, yet would tame the snappiness down quite a bit.

An all steel 1911 in .40 S&W would likely be popular. Should be a lot less snappy in that platform than in something like a Glock 23.

Ammunition has to do more than penetrate. FMJ 9mm would always penetrate as much or more than FMJ 45 ACP. Penetration for stopping a fight has to be enough, and in fact, a round that penetrates enough as opposed to going completely through the subject, is preferable. Many lab rats seem to forget this.

I blame Obammy.

No doubt Obama likes more penetration. Mooch might have a 45 sized though.

The opposite is true. The plastic frame of the Glock flexes some during recoil plus the wider grip spreads out the recoil over a wider portion of the hand. My 1911's shooting standard hardball 45 ACP ammo at around 850 fps kick harder than my G20 shooting 200 gr hardcast at 1300 fps.

I still think 40 offers a small advantage over both 9mm and 45 ACP. But the advantage isn't enough to justify the added costs, recoil, and reduced mag capacity. I can get practice 9mm for $8/ box. Both 40 and 10mm runs about $14/ box locally and 45's $16/box. I'm sure LE can get bulk prices cheaper, but 9mm is still cheaper and if you shoot a lot it adds up.

I like the 40 well enough, but I have a couple of 10mm pistols that do everything better. Ammo is the same price and is just as easy to find anymore.

Just to add to what I posted earlier, I'm retired now and can carry anything I want. In the warm weather I carry my Glock 43 9mm with a Pearce +1 mag extension for a total of 8 147 grain HST rounds. In my pocket, I carry a spare with a Tango Down/Vickers +2 extension for another 8 rounds. In winter I either carry my Glock 27 .40 loaded with 180 grain HST and a spare in the pocket, or my Gen 5 Glock 19 loaded with Underwood 124 grain +P+ Gold Dots also with a 15 round spare in my pocket or carried in a Nylon Gerber knife sheath that makes a great mag pouch that doesn't alarm people. I feel totally well armed with any of these. Was carrying my Airweight 642 in .38 special in the summer, but the active shooters as of late have given me cause to change my tactics.

Ron

I’d take a G19 over a G23 any day. “Penetration” doesn’t matter with misses. 40 is snappy, even with heavies.

https://youtu.be/cjBLuTwT6mM

NY State Police dropped the 9mm and adopted the 45 GAP. They had lost several troopers due to multiple failures of the 9mm to instantly neutralize a threat. Not much to argue about.
If you want to discuss expensive ammo, check out 45 GAP. However, it has proven itself several times in service.

Our city police are switching from 40 to 9mm. The 40 cal guns were at the end of their lifespan. Studiies have shown that modern 9mm ammo achieve what the 40 did in 1990 tests. Of course modern 40 is better also, but at the cost of snappier recoil, less rounds in the mag and higher ammo costs. As most recruits have little or no firearms experience, a 9mm is easier for most to shoot.

The force thought it was a no brainer. Guns cost the same, officers shoot better, ammo meets FBI 1990 standard, more rounds in mag, ammo costs less. What bean counter in the world wouldn't want that?

Nothing to do with 40 effectiveness.

BTW, my cousin is a former sniper in the Canadian Army. He now is a contractor teaching the Iraqi police and army. When he is in Iraq, he could carry any handgun he wants.. He chooses a Glock in 9mm.

What load were they using in the 9mm? That can make a big difference. As well as where the hits actually were.

Simple from my experience the 40 is not a 45!

"As of January 2018, New York State Troopers are issued the Glock 21 Gen4 chambered in .45 ACP as the service pistol." - Wikipedia

Cost of ammo for not that much more performance for the average person who likes to shoot.

have a para 1911 in 40. fun to shoot.

It may or may not be in third place but to overstate the obvious it was designed as a happy medium to cover a range of variables.

A proven and effective killing cartridge in a small platform might not be in style but being stylish has nothing to do with staying alive.

I always thought the 40 was the perfict trade off between 9 mm and 45... My nicest 1911 is a 40 cal..but the reality is I prefer to shoot the 45s....it recoils a tad more but seems more manageable.. The 40 is sharp and fast..the luckey gunner test if you read it puts the 9 mm in a whole new light with modern ammo...
I can see the 40 fading out...as long as the military is using th 9 it will keep ammo cots down and police dep will follow right or wrong..

I like the 40, I have 45’s too, but the 40 holds more ammo.

I'll stick with my Officer's Model 45 ACP. As many have stated, the 40 was a "dumb down" of the 10MM and the 9mm (puke) with modern ammo is more than adequate and less recoil. Now if I really wanted to get serious, I'll carry my Glock 31 with 125gr HJPs...

Only if you don't own one.

I have a Browning HP and like it a lot.

It does not hurt that the wife shoots it like it was an extension of her.

I carry a Beretta 96 40. cal.
I believe the 40 is a good combination of bullet weight and velocity. Most folks are not willing to practice enough to handle the recoil. I shoot a double stack much better than a single stack. My oldest son is better with a 1911, my younger son has a 96 in 40 and my wife's preference is a Smith 686+ she practices with 38 special and loads 357 for carry.
For carry, anything is better than than your fist, but I want the most power I can shoot accurately.

The 40 BHP has the heaviest mainspring/recoil spring combo that I've ever felt.

It was. That's why I bought a G23 way back in 1994. Back then, handgun ammo didn't reliably expand so you wanted to start with the biggest hole possible. I believe that Gold Dot, the first reliable JHP, was introduced in 1995. Before that, it was just Silvertip, Remington's scalloped HPs and some junk. Now that we have DPX, HST and other good ammo, I'll go with the 9mm and more rounds with less recoil.

9mm has some good ammo now, and 9's capacity or magazine size is important to many.
EZ carry like a SW Shield with 9 rounds is a good balance for many.
I prefer the 9mm myself.

"Most folks are not willing to practice enough to handle the recoil."

What recoil? I gave my 9mm pistol to my son when I bought a Glock 22 in 1995. The G22 has a quicker recoil but I can shoot it much better than the 9mm because it comes right back on target after the recoil. I also like the trigger. I bought a Beratta 9mm a few years ago after having surgery on my trigger finger and I can't pull the trigger. It has a 16lb trigger pull! I can still shoot the G22 with it's 4.5lb trigger pull ok though. I carry a Glock 27 which has a quicker recoil but I can shoot it pretty good.

i have kind of always felt the 40 was a compromise between 9 and 45, that didn't have to be. Except it meant a lot of new ammo sales, new gun sales, and a fillup thrown to women and some men that couldn't handle a full size gun and load.
I also know police departments are like lemmings marching to the cliff, following the F.B.I. and what's trendy.
California is a great example. loves to spend money. and brand new glocks showing up in arizona as they "update" to the gen 4 or gen 5 glock. Or, replacing black rifles with mini 14's because they are less threatening.
There are a number of pistols in .45 that can hold 14 or 15 rounds.
i do get the idea that 9mm can hold more rounds. what i do find funny is the .356 diameter 147grain 9mm flies about like a 38 in the same grain weight. I often refer to the 9mm as a high capacity 38special.
As to the bullets when gold dot first came out, i fired some from a 9mm into 2x4's, they plugged up just wonderful.
I have fired an awful lot of 40 in a glock 23, and don't have any issue with "snap" or anything else.
But, my last handgun purchase was a sig sauer p320M17. And i basically bought both types of winchester ammo the military is using, and love those 21round magazines. One in the gun and two spares, you basically got a box of ammo ready to go. I am basically a big bore heavy bullet guy. having said that it is hard to trump 21 rounds in the 9mm, and some of the new bullets make up a lot of the atvantage of the bigger calibers, with less recoil. things change, and one of my concerns is group situations, i think the 9mm has it's place.

The 40 will be around longer than all of us will be.

Based on a number of studies, some of which have been discussed on the 'Fire, there is little difference in the effectiveness of 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP assuming top quality defensive ammo is used. 9mm effectiveness is probably more dependent on using the best ammo than .40 and .45, but even then there is not a big difference. 9mm is easier to shoot and hit with, and holds more rounds for the same size gun. For these reasons, 9mm is gaining popularity vs .40 and .45. I think this is mostly due to improved bullets for handgun ammo.

.40 is certainly unfashionable right now, but it's not going anywhere. There hundreds of thousands of guns out there chambered for it.

For police departments, 9mm is ascendant because of cost of ammo and the need to qualify women officers. That will continue until there's yet another major shootout where the terminal performance of 9mm is found wanting. Then we'll do it all again.

It depends. The Federal HST is rated at 1000fps out of a 4 inch barrel. That being said, I prefer the 124.

I hope so.

Then I'll buy up a few Glock 22s and Glock 27s and drop in 9mm conversion barrels and be money ahead and have better cartridge, to boot.

If I was headed to a pistol fight, I would take my Sig P220 .45 ACP and Remington 870.....

Somewhere in my safe is full size Kimber Classic Stainless Gold Match (not 2) in .40S&W. I used to terrorize USPSA with it before there was 180 different classes and the power factor was still 175.

So will the 30-40 Krag but that doesn't mean it will be relevant.

not at my house......still use 'em

I'll stick with my .40 S&W. No issue ever buying ammo for it, and I like that.

If we're gonna be anal.....Troopers dropped the 9mm in 2007. Began using Glock 37's in the 45 GAP until 2018. Then adopted the ACP.

Mine, an old custom wide body 1911 Para, is going nowhere.

Neither is MY CZ 40P.

Local gun store was broken into one night about 3 years ago.
Bunch of illegals stole an F250 and drove it backwards through glass front wall of store.
4 guys bailed out of cab, 3 of them smashed three glass display cases, 4th went behind counter and started grabbing ARs off wall.
The shop has 4 glass display cabinets full of handguns. The case they didn't break was the one full of 40 cals.
They took over 250 guns in a matter of a couple of minutes by just tossing them in bed of truck. Every 22, 380, 9, 45 and revolver in the store was gone.

And yes quality 40 cal pistols are starting to turn up pretty cheap around here.
Bought a like new M&P 40 w 4 mags a couple weeks back for $275 including tax.
I have been shooting Glock 22s for over 25 years, I own 3 of them.

The 40 will be at the same level as the 10mm in a few years and be a step above the 357Sig, 45GAP and 38Super.

In my mind, the 10mm is in another category. It's great as a gun for hiking, fishing etc.in bear country or where there are other potentially dangerous animals. Probably more than needed for self defense in populated areas. But if someone likes it, why not?

That's what I figure, too.

It basically reproduces the old police load for .41 Magnum, which would send a 200-grain semi-wadcutter downrange at around 900 fps.

Model 58 S&W: Like a bull barrel Model 10 on steroids:

I just have too many components & reloaded ammo to drop my 40(s)

I like them there German 40's.........

Anyone who says the .40 is "dead" or "dying" is spouting nonsense. It seems to be #3 for full-sized autos. #3 is not dead or dying. The .40 is a "dying caliber" in the same way a .30-06 or .270 or .243 or .30-30 is a "dying caliber". It might be a "worse choice" for many than the 9mm, but it's far more practical than the .45 ACP. M&P9 = 17 rd. M&P40 = 15 rd. M&P45 = 10 rd. Hmmm.

It may be #3 but it's been lapped by 1 and 2.

I think all this switching from one caliber to another is a total waste of taxpayer money . Police departments are always bitching about funding , so let's piss away money on switching -again calibers so all the sub-par people we have can pretend to handle a duty side arm .Either shoot what you're issued or get a job in the library or some other job sucking off the taxpayer .

With Winchester, CCI/Speer and Hornady joining Federal in the defense ammo game (selling basically what amount to warmed over .40 loads) the same auto can be a ideal bear/cat/hog gun and a very respectable self defense gun with a mag change.

The 40 heads out the door every time I go hiking. Not right now though, so no.

I have 2 .40's. A model 35 and a 23 Glock. I'm not interested in a 9mm. I own one and I see no reason to own anymore.

keg

LMAO!

Now ya done gone and done it......Goosey is gonna go find himself a taxpayer now........

I doubt it. 40's are are a great people round. The only thing that comes close is the 9mm now that bullets got better. Talking combat carry arms of course.

I'm not sure any common defensive/duty handgun chambering can consistently deliver instant neutralization of a threat.

CNS hit is about the only way, then a 22 will work.

My CZ 40 S&W heads out the door with me every time.

We'll kinda. Pistols ain't no different than rifles. Shot placement and bullet performance. The 40. S&W is about as good a balance as you're gonna get in a light weight handgun round.

Dying.

Will it hold ground, wither or die?

It could even get a resurgence.
A decade or two from now,
big shootout, lots dead cops and bad guys.

Some old dude kept his 40 and it was a deciding factor.
Just chance, no one sees it that way.


We need a bigger shell in our clips,
more power....


Don't own a 40, haven't liked the ones I have shot.
Shoot light 380 guns to heavy 44mag 45 colt.
I find the 40 much less pleasant than 9 or 45acp.


BUT,
A cheap G-22/23 to have laying around for whatever,
or a bigger woods gun than my 9?

Even a 26.

I would buy one, or two.

I could not care less if it withers sway. Everything does. For now....there is nothing better. FWIW...I carry a nine. Ammo's cheaper and I don't rely on luck.

Best use for .40 brass is necking it down to for 357 SIG. In the G31, that is 16 rds. of ammo matching the 125 gr. 357 Magnum load that has long been considered the gold standard as a manstopper. Extended range, more penetration, plenty accurate, and easier to shoot than the .40.

Expensive, yes. But so is anything that performs at a higher level than something less expensive. And when it is my life or that of someone I care about on the line, price is not one of my criteria. I can carry a lot more capability in the same space as a 9 or a .40, and with a 125 gr. Gold Dot matching 357 Mag loads, I am not concerned about whether or not it will do the job. It penetrates better than the .45 when I need that, reaches better than the others if I need that, and is at least the equal of the .45 in “stopping power”(which I am not convinced of). I have a 1911, and a G17, both of which are plenty capable. But the 31 gets the nod most of the time, because of the sheer superiority of that round in that platform.

The .45 is amazing and the .40 kinda a waste

I seem to recall 22 shot being able to kill someone. A neck shot IIRC...

The 40 is very close to "dead" already. It's been "dying" for over a decade.

9mm will rule the roost by FAR.
45ACP is not going to last long as an agency round either, save for nostalgia.
357SIG would be the superior round to all of them if that is what agency's truly wanted.

I think the 357 SIG is a better round...

I've seen two killed, and several others paralyzed, by a .177 pellet. Of course, center-fire rifles and shotguns are most decisive. A handgun is basically a tool to get, or keep, someone off of you. The "best" one is the biggest one you are comfortable carrying ALL THE TIME. Who you are, where you are, what you do and where you go will determine what is "best".

"What did you say? Speak up, Sonny!"

Ha!

You do know that contracts expire and guns used in enforcement wear out? As I stated in a previous post, our City's police force had been using Glocks in 40 for 20-25 years. Their lifespan had ended, whether being end of a contract, or enough guns had worn out it warranted a change to a new set of guns. So no added cost to switch from 40 to 9mm, the guns were being replaced one way or the other. I'm told the police force is saving $300,000 a year in ammo costs by switching to 9mm.

Lots of forces are trading in their .40 caliber Glocks with very little use on them. Some are new or near new. So it's not always because they wore out.

Mine heads out the door with me a lot. Usually in my IWB holster.

Has anybody that has introduced a new semi-auto pistol in the last year made in .40 S&W? I'm asking, I haven't paid much attention. And I mean a new offering that would require a manufacturer to tool up for a .40 S&W offering.

As for the existing caliber, and the pistols chambered for it in civilian hands;
"If you LIKE your Forty, you can KEEP your Forty..."


For the record, I never got into that caliber by rationalizing that I already had a few 9mm and 45 acp pistols, and didn't want to clutter the inventory. That logic crumbled when I got into 357 Sig and 10mm, by the way...

I'm sure they are worn slick by a Canadian police dept . Considering all the shoot-outs I'm positive they've been in . You must love paying taxes for nonsense .

Do the police practice so much they wear out their guns?

Powdered sugar is corrosive and abrasive.

I see what you did there... excellent sense of humor, my man! That was a good one.

A real 200gr 10mm load does far better than 900fps. More like 1200. Which is why I'll never bother with a .40S&W. In fact - I can no longer see a need for buying anything more than 9mm, but less than 10mm,